Becoming a Christian

lol, sorry not joining u 2 but i don't drink ;)

Only God Can Judge Me

الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي

I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer

أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ

I concur and will pay for the 1st 15 :) Although I will have wine or whiskey ... hate beer. Where and when? ;)

---

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

then we agree. there is no need to discuss God's existence.

Let's go for a pint :)

ALL of the time it's all US :)

---

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

So he has time to devote in scrutinizing my life as an unbeliever, but no time to help you as a believer?

I don't think that God devotes any time to punish or reward us on his own. Only time we can expect intercession in our lives is when we pray for it AND if the prayer is heard.

Rest of the time, it's all US baby :)

We create our own heaven or hell right here on earth.

Waaahahahahaha :) No. He is too intelligent to fall for that.

---

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

But are we not the pinnacle of god's creation? Are we not the most important of his creations?

To answer your questions; maybe and no. In that order :)

If spiritist have a different view on god than christians (as put forth in the bible) please let me know.

I don't know what a spiritists or christian scientitsts think. All I know is what I, a confused as heck, not so smart, human being, thinks :)

I have a foul mouthed parrot.His name is "polly". He got his vocabulary from his previous owner, who passed away.

Can I persuade him to confess his sins and become a christian.

platao! yes sure allah is impartial, but he punish those who do not obey him and reward those who do good.

Allah does not need anything from us but it is we that need to do those things, we need to obey him,although he doent need it, we need to fear him although he does not need it too but he require us to do so as a measure and as a test to know who among us people are obedienent and heedless.

hence, he sent us to paradise and some cast to hell.

"Born optimist nothing can keep me too low for so long"

3sure: Still you describe an imperfect being, he doesn't need all those things because he already knows all, let me give you an example:

God created all life in the universe, as a perfect being He just "knows" that He created everything correctly, a perfect being doesn't commit any errors .

I must go somewhere else, loving this exchange of ideas, if i don't get back today, we can continue tomorrow, thks 4 your understanding :)

Only God Can Judge Me

الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي

I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer

أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ

Religion has actually convinced people that there`s an invisible man -- living in the sky -- who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of things he does not want you to do..And if you do any of these things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever `til the end of time! ...But He loves you. - George Carlin

---

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

If I could recollect a-from my hood days

I sit and reminisce, thinkin of bliss on the good days

I stop and stare at the younger, my heart goes to 'em

They tested with stress that they under

And nowadays things change

Everyone's ashamed of the youth cause the truth look, strange

And for me it's a first

We left 'em a world that's cursed, and it - hurts

Cause any day they'll push the button

And all come in like Malcolm X or Bobby Hutton died for nuttin

Don't it make you get teary, the world looks dreary

When you wipe yo' eyes see it clearly

There's no need for you to FEAR me

If you take your time and HEAR me, maybe you can learn to CHEER me

It ain't about black or white cause we human

I hope we see the light before it's ruined, my ghetto gospel

[Chorus]

[Verse Two]

Tell me do you see that old lady, ain't it sad

Livin out of bags, plus shes glad for the little things she, has

And over there there's a lady, crack got her crazy

Guess who's givin birth to a, baby?

I don't trip and let it fade me

From out of the fryin pan, we jump into another form of slavery

Even now I get discouraged

Wonder if they take it all back, will I still keep the - courage?

I refuse to be a role model

I set goals, take control, drink out my own bottles

I made mistakes, but learned from every one

And when it's said and done, I bet there's got to be a better one

If I upset you don't stress, never forget

That God is up in this with me yet

I feel his hand on my brain

When I write rhymes I go blind and let the Lord do his, thang

But am I less holy?

Cause I chose to puff a blunt, and drink a beer with my homies

Before we find world peace

We gotta find peace within the war in the streets, my ghetto gospel

[Chorus]

[2Pac]

Lord can you hear me speak? ..

The pain and strife of bein hellbound

Back to the top of this page!

"you give reward to someone who does not obey you? who does not follow you? who does not recognized your greatness? who does not thank you? who does does good to others but not to you?"

3sure: You are describing an imperfect being or do you think that Allah is imperfect?

Alah is impartial, he doesn't need you to obey him, he doesn't need you to follow him and even less he needs you to recognize his greatness or that you thank him.

Like i stated previouslly, Allah only does good, good to you maybe evil to someone else.

Only God Can Judge Me

الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي

I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer

أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ

shamiri shamiri...what for u the meaning of morality? morality is define or taken through religious standard of character,that guide to which is right and wrong,good and bad.

Ohh bollocks man lol ... morality has NOTHING to do with religion

---

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

you give reward to someone who does not obey you? who does not follow you? who does not recognized your greatness? who does not thank you? who does does good to others but not to you? allah is just and he is mostly just to himself.

"Born optimist nothing can keep me too low for so long"

3SURE: Mohamed Ali, the boxeur, said once that if you do good, no matter your religion, God will reward you and i fully agree with him, before converting he was known by the name of Cassius Clay.

Only God Can Judge Me

الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي

I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer

أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ

yup :) does my withering sarcasm scream otherwise?

qwertyness....are you happy and satisfied with your life? and are enjoying it?

just asking

"Born optimist nothing can keep me too low for so long"

platao- that's a good idea, but what if it's the maschoist saying that? I mean, things could get sticky VERY quickly if that's the case.......

platao yes.. and thats a part of good conduct and highly recommended. and that is why muslims always conveys the the knowledge or correct knowledge about our lord and his will. because he knows it is true and he wants only the truth to his fellow.

"Born optimist nothing can keep me too low for so long"

here's my problem with all these books and preachers: they're totally subjective!

words change. bibles, koran, whatever have been through hundreds of translations and printings, and more than a few typos or word switcharoos have happened. Meaning literal interpretations are flawed from the get go.

not to mention most of them have a certain comic-book-flair, usually involving some super awesome guy saving the good while smiting the living shit out of whoever the authors have decided are the bad. Some religions, like the one the OP was spouting up at the top of all this , even give him a trendy sidekick! i'm sort of hoping he came with some wicked-cool utility belt......

So is it good to read about gospels and how this super hero of awesomeness works? sure why not. but it's no better than reading the latest Stephen King novel, watching a play, listening to a song, or doing anythign else that might influence you in a 'spiritual' way- and by that i mean make you go all tingly and give you some clarity on your own life. You can get that without all this mish mash about who's god is better than who's, and who's evil or who isn't.

And why is that? Is it not good to read about gospels and how GOD works?

3sure: Wouldn't be easyer to say: "Do up on others what you would like them to do to you" ?

Only God Can Judge Me

الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي

I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer

أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ

the critria for good and bad are laid down in the holy books...along with its the prescribed rewards or punishment .. then we humans r given the sense of reasoning and freewill to abide or not is up to us.

This is the Islamic principle of Faith:

1.believe in Allah, the one without partner in authority

2.believe in his angel

3.believe in his messenger

4.believe in the books he revealed

5.believe in the in the hereafter or day of judgement

6.believe in the preordainment

"Born optimist nothing can keep me too low for so long"

shamiri shamiri...what for u the meaning of morality? morality is define or taken through religious standard of character,that guide to which is right and wrong,good and bad. Good and bad is outlined by quran, sunnah or bible! you as an athiest, I presume, which moral conduct you are following?

believing in the hereafter is part of the Gods will....to show goodness to God and fullfil his command is the best and ultimate moral conduct ever a man can do. to show respect to fellow as co existence is just a fraction of obedience to Gods will.

"Born optimist nothing can keep me too low for so long"

To help you out, i copied/pasted a smaller explanation of the book:

"ALLAN KARDEC'S "THE SPIRITS' BOOK"

Background (as taken from the book backcover)

Allan Kardec, the nom de plume of H. Leon Denizard Rivail, was a French educator and philosopher born in Lyon in 1804. In 1854 Rivail first heard of the mysterious "rapping" phenomena that had taken America and Europe by storm. Despite his initial skepticism, he was convinced by close friends to attend an experimental meeting where he was able to witness such occurrences firsthand. His intellectual curiosity and scientific instincts told him that there had to be a rational explanation for these phenomena. Consequently, he began soon afterwards to conduct investigations of his own. Eventually he was approached by a group of fellow-researchers who asked him to organize a set of fifty notebooks containing transcripts and journals of numerous spirit communications. Using the same logical rigor that he had applied to his work in education and science, Rivail set out to study this material. In the meantime, he supplemented the transcripts with philosophical and scientific questions, which he posed to different channels (mediums) in different countries. The answers were compared, analyzed, and organized into the present book, which was first published in 1857.

The original english translation of this book, published in the late 1800's, is available for viewing on-line.

Creating a new version

In 1982 the U.S. Allan Kardec Educational Society recognized that the unconventional sentence structure and terminology used in the original English text made it a hard book to read, "at times obfuscating Kardec's flawless logic and the guides' superb discernment and wisdom". They commenced a comprehensive new translation, published in 1996, which can be ordered on the internet here or by mail at the AKES addresses given on their website. The product is an amazingly comprehensive treatise, written primarily by channeled spirit sources, that is remarkably consistent with the other information sources described on this website. The book is written in the form of spirit responses to each of over 1000 questions. It transcends any doctrine and can simply be regarded as a set of spiritual truths which are enduring over centuries. No serious study of the Afterlife should fail to include this book.

Key Spiritual points

The book concludes with the following summary of the most important points provided by the spirits:

God is eternal, immutable, immaterial, unique, all-powerful, sovereignly just and good.

God created the universe, which comprehends all beings, animate and inanimate, material and immaterial.

Physical beings constitute the visible or incarnate world; non-physical beings constitute the invisible or spiritual world, i.e., the spirit-world.

The spirit-world is the normal, original, eternal world; it is pre-existent to and survives everything else.

Ths physical world is secondary. It could cease to exist, or even never have existed at all, and that would not affect the essence of the spirit-world.

Spirits temporarily assume a perishable physical body, the death of which restores them to liberty.

Among the different kinds of physical beings on Earth, God has chosen the human species for the incarnation of spirits who have arrived at a certain degree of development. This characteristic gives the human species an ethical and intellectual advantage over other living species.

The soul is an incarnate spirit, the body its material envelope.

Human beings consist of the following: 1) a body, or physical being, similar to that belonging to animals and animated by the same vital principle; 2) a soul, an immaterial spirit incarnated in the body; 3) an intermediate link which unites the soul and body.

Human beings have, accordingly, two natures: animal and spiritual. Through the body, humans participate in the nature of animals, with which they share instincts. Through the soul, they participate in the nature of the spirits.

A link, known as the perispirit (or spiritual body), unites the body and the spirit. It is a semi-material envelope, as opposed to the fully material envelope of the body. At death, the spirit sheds the physical body, the grosser of the two, but preserves the perispirit or spiritual body. The perispirit constitutes, then, an ethereal body that the spirit can render visible, or even tangible, as in the case of spirit-sightings.

A spirit is not, therefore, an abstract being, a concept of thought. Rather, it is a real and well-defined entity that in certain situations, can be perceived by sight, hearing, and touch.

Spirits belong to different orders; they are not equals either in power, intelligence, knowledge, or ethical excellence. Those in the highest order are distinguished by purity, knowledge and love of goodness--they are the so-called "angels" or "pure spirits". The others are relatively more distant from this perfection. Those in the lower orders are inclined to most of our human feelings and may still take pleasure in wrong-doing. Among them are those who are neither very good nor very bad, but have malicious, mischievous or irksome natures. These might be classed as giddy and foolish spirits.

Spirits do not belong perpetually to the same order. They are destined to attain perfection and, as they do so, progress up through the different orders. This advancement is achieved through incarnations, which are undertaken either as special missions or as trials leading to purification. Physical life is an experience spirits must undergo many times before reaching this goal. These lives can be understood as cleansing exercises from each of which spirits generally emerge in a more purified state.

On leaving the body, the soul returns to the spirit-world, where it exists as a free-spirit (i.e., free from the limitations of the physical world) and where it will stay for an indeterminate time until it enters a new incarnation.

Spirits have many incarnations. From this we can conclude that we have all had many existences, and will have many others on Earth and elsewhere.

The incarnation of spirits only takes place in human beings. Spirits do not incarnate in animal form.

The chain of incarnations is always progressive. The spirit's speed of progress depends on its efforts, but it cannot regress.

The qualities of the person are a reflection of the incarnate spirit's. Consequently, a good person is the incarnation of a good spirit, and a bad person of a less advanced one.

The soul possesses its individuality before incarnating and will preserve it after the death of the body.

On returning to the spirit world, the soul meets those it has known on Earth. In addition, it gradually recalls the actions, both good and harmful, of its former lives.

An incarnate spirit is under the influence of matter. Those who surmount this influence through self-purification raise themselves nearer to the higher spheres. Those who give in to instinctual tendencies and pursue solely the gratification of physical desires are closer to the inferior realm.

Incarnated spirits live on different worlds throughout the universe.

Free (or not incarnated) spirits do not occupy a circumscribed space. They are everywhere, and both perceive and regularly associate with human beings. They constitute an invisible but active society that constantly interacts with our own.

Spirits constantly exert an inflence on both the physical and ethical environments of the Earth. They constitute one of the powers of nature, since they may act equally upon matter and thought. They are the cause of many sorts of previously unexplained or misinterpreted phenomena, which may now find a compelling rationale in the Spiritist Doctrine.

Spirits constantly interrelate with human beings. The good ones inspire people to take the high road, sustain them through trials, and instill in them courage and resignation. On the other hand, the less advanced ones inculcate sordid ideas and depressive thoughts. They take pleasure in our troubles and strive to make us like themselves.

Spirit interactions with human beings can be either suble or direct. The subtle communications happen without our awareness, generally in the form of inspiration. We need to exercise discernment, however, in distinguishing between the uplifting and the malevolent kinds. Direct exchanges occur through writing, speech, and other physical manifestations, usually with the intervention of amedium who acts as a link between the two worlds.

Spirits may communicate spontaneously or in response to human evocations. Generally speaking, all free intelligences may be evoked--from the most obscure to the most illustrious, from loved ones to enemies--regardless of the epoch in which they lived. If permitted, they may share information about their new situation, their thoughts regarding us, and any insights they feel like imparting.

Spirits move by laws of affinity. Advanced spirits take pleasure in assemblies with serious purpose, wherein members are animated by love and a sincere desire to learn and progress. Their presence repels less advanced spirits. The latter, in turn, find themselves at ease among frivolous and simple minds who come together solely out of curiosity or other harmful motives. In such assemblies nothing useful is produced. The spirits' suggestions are trifling, ill-natured, and deceptive. To make matters worse, they often borrow venerated names to impose their ideas more effectively.

It is easy to distinguish between advanced and less advanced spirits. The language of higher spirits is dignified, high-minded, and free from every trace of human passion. Their cousels breathe wisdom. Their aim is always the advancement of humanity. On the other hand, remarks by less advanced spirits make use of commonplace, sometimes coarse, language and often contain substantial inconsistencies. Although they sometimes make true and worthwhile statements, their observations are usually ethically flawed and full of false arguments. They play upon the naivete of their audience by feeding false hopes and swelling their listeners' egos. Obviously, enlightening communications can only be obtained in assemblies of a serious character where participants are united in thought and desire by the pursuit of love and truth.

The ethical teachings of the higher spirits may be summed up in the words of Christ: "Do unto others as you would that others should do unto you". In brief, do good to all and wrong no one. This principle of action furnishes humanity with a rule of conduct with universal application, from the most trivial to the most critical matters.

Enlightened intelligences teach that self-centeredness, pride and sensuality keep human beings engrossed in their animal nature. Accordingly, the person who detaches him or herself from wordly things and who practices "love thy neighbor" grows more spiritual. The spirits advise that we always serve others, as our means allow us, and that the strong and powerful owe assistance and protection to the weak. They caution that the person who misuses power to oppress his or her follow beings violates the laws of God. They also teach that in the spirit-world nothing can be hidden; that the hypocrite is unmasked and his or her wrongdoing revealed; that the unavoidable presence of those we have wronged on Earth is one of the trials we must face in the spirit world; and that the ethical state of spirits, depending on how advanced or unadvanced they are, gives rise in that world to enjoyments or suffering and regrets.

Further, they teach that there are no unpardonable faults and that there is no misdeed that cannot be redressed. Men and women find the means of redemption and progress through reincarnation. Their desire and effort set the pace of their advancement toward the ultimate aim of all--perfection."

Now, about your previous points:

1- Spiritism is a so called "standard religion" because it's related to Monotheism beliefs.

2/3/4 - There's a big difference, some of us, spiritists, can talk with the spirits and ask them, can you do the same with saints or prophets?

If God has blessed me with the power to talk to spirits, i can ask them directly your doubts.

Only God Can Judge Me

الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي

I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer

أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ

Ahmmm,

I have read the 1st couple of chapters of that book. To be totally honest, to me it seems as if the following happened:

1. Take standard religion.

2. Cut out all the questionable parts (creationism for example).

3. Replace with more acceptable theories (like evolution).

4. Replace prophets, saints etc with spirits.

5. Add reincarnation.

6. Reinforce the fact that we are too stupid to understand god.

I know this IS a snap judgment and I will need more time to red and assimilate the whole book.

---

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

"Spiritism is not a religion but a moral and philosophical way of life, right?"

wrong ;)

Spiritism is a religion just that it's part of the Monotheism because we don't believe in profets but in higher leveled spirits, human body is too imperfect to understand God's greatness .

i advise you to search for "The Book of Spirits" by Allan Kardec, it will give you more clues about spiritism.

As Mohamed Ali said once, it ain't the religion that you follow that makes u good or evil but your actions

Herne: Ppl may have been raised in a religion but later decide to change because he doesn't belive in same religion he was raised on, i was raised catholique but i'm spiritist now.

Rock: Feal free to participate :)

Only God Can Judge Me

الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي

I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer

أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ

There is nothing we MUST believe in. The sense of doing good is that it is a moral choice for me, not a religious one. As to your statement "a very simple logic yet plays important factor in belief.", if THAT is why you do good, to get into paradise, you are not truly believing that you are doing god's will. You are buying your way into paradise through good deeds.

Yes, we are all accountable. But I am not accountable to god. I am accountable to my fellow human beings.

---

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

Hey, anyone recommend somewhere good to fellowship?

Thanks Stephen

Believers or not all are accountable for the consequences of their deeds,

Allah does not focus his attention to a certain individual as what you thought.

"Born optimist nothing can keep me too low for so long"

that changing religion means lack of confidence or self-esteem. When you are an infant or child, you usually get the religion your parents have. But when you grow up you can decide whether you agree with the principles of that religion or not. If not, and it might be any reason or religion, then you should change.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.freewebs.com/qatarpets/

It is a must that we must believe in the hereafter, the reward of paradise and hell after we die. otherwise what's the sense of being good and not good? if everything just ends in deaths? a very simple logic yet plays important factor in belief.

"Born optimist nothing can keep me too low for so long"

3sure-hunk3r ... so let me get this straight:

I do not believe in god or allah or whoever. That means I cannot go to heaven right? But he will continue to punish me for his idea of wrong doing, right?

So he has time to devote in scrutinizing my life as an unbeliever, but no time to help you as a believer? Ergo, I mean more to god than his most devout believers. I ROCK!!!!!! yeeeehaaaa!!

---

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

RnR ... I think willing to stop evil and/or suffering are human emotions or needs. Why would we, the humans, be that important to God?

But are we not the pinnacle of god's creation? Are we not the most important of his creations?

ohhh hmmm wait. God as the perfect spirit? or god as the fire n brimstone guy? If spiritist have a different view on god than christians (as put forth in the bible) please let me know.

---

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

I think willing to stop evil and/or suffering are human emotions or needs. Why would we, the humans, be that important to God?

Look at the cosmos. In the grand scheme of things, the human race is like a very small ant heap in Sahara desert.

Is God able to stop evil/suffering? I would say yes. Willing to stop it? I would say yes. Aware of its effect on us? probably not. That's why all religious practices include prayer, meditation and humility.

Bring your petition to the omnipotent with humility and we MAY be heard. Otherwise, we are on our own to make our own choices and suffer or be rewarded.

Mind you, I have been known to argue both sides of this debate so please, carry on :)

Ahhh, I misread spriritist for spiritualist ... my apologies.

But spiritists do not believe in an omnipotent god. just in a perfect spirit who is seen as the ultimate cause, or source, of all things and beings, right? Spiritism is not a religion but a moral and philosophical way of life, right?

I hope I understand the true meaning of spiritism. If I have it wrong, let me know.

If I DO understand it correctly, the I will still ask my previous set of questions, only replace evil with suffering.

---

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

well shamiri it is not that God cannot stop the evil,but for what he will? it is clear that we humans are responsible for evilness, we are in control of that, it is upto us if we want to keep that way or not and we responslbe for the consequences of our deeds. not unless you cry for hishelp and repent for that what so ever..then comes the Gods mercy(but of course you have first to believe that there is hereafter paradise or hell)

"Born optimist nothing can keep me too low for so long"

Shamiri: Spiritists belive in God, for us, God is the most perfect spirit in the universe.

"In the philosophical concept of evil, the intent to cause harm is crucial, so that acts that would otherwise be considered evil are not called evil when performed by very young children, by animals, or by the insane (see Amorality)."

This is what i was just telling you about spiritists not beliving in Evil, imperfect spirits are like litle children, they do somethings that will hurt other folks but only because they haven't yet leurned to be responsable but they'll leurn with time ;)

3sure: Nice reply, but.... what you would think of someone that says that he killed this or that because God ordered him to?

Just as a side note, don't take my words as an attack to any religion in private.

God created life, i agree with that, but isn't he perfect? If he is, than he's also impartial right?

RocknRoll: According to the bible Adam and Eve were pure and didn't needed clothes till the day they ate the forbidden fruit ;)

Only God Can Judge Me

الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي

I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer

أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ

Hmmm and come to think of it RnR ... that reply did not answer the question, did it? It is just an explanation of why god is not responsible for evil, not if he could stop it hehe

---

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

Even though the question might have been posed by many an atheist, I have yet to find a satisfactory answer ;)

---

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

I've started a thread with exactly that in mind: http://www.qatarliving.com/node/242675

My reply would be that god is blaming humans for his own ineptitude.

---

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

From Wiki:

In Western philosophy, evil is usually limited to doing harm or damage to an object or creature. Plato argued that which we call evil is merely ignorance and that good is that which everyone desires. Benedict de Spinoza said that the difference between good and evil is merely one of personal inclinations: "So everyone, by the highest right of Nature, judges what is good and what is evil, considers his own advantage according to his own temperament... ."[2]

The duality of 'good versus evil' is expressed, in some form or another, by many cultures. Those who believe in the duality theory of evil believe that evil cannot exist without good, nor good without evil, as they are both objective states and opposite ends of the same scale.

The legal term, malice (from the Latin malus meaning "bad") describes the deliberate human intent to harm, while sadism refers to a psychological state in which a person derives pleasure from the pain of another person.

In the philosophical concept of evil, the intent to cause harm is crucial, so that acts that would otherwise be considered evil are not called evil when performed by very young children, by animals, or by the insane (see Amorality).

There is also a class of deliberate acts, known to be harmful to another, which are not considered evil because:

1. they are acts of self-defense or defense of another

2. they are considered justified (for instance, Just War)

Phew. The debate about what constitutes evil has kept many philosophers busy for their entire life times. As such, I think it falls outside the scope of the current discussion.

---

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

Shamiri said

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"

This is pretty standard from atheists and here is the response I have heard from a RC Bishop and another a leading Muslim cleric. Funny thing is that the responses were delivered in different languages at different times, yet the content was nearly same :)

So here goes;

God put humans on earth to exercise their free will. He provided food, shelter and best of all guidance in form of prophets and scripture (Bible, Quran etc.).

Humans are free on this earth to make their choices; good or evil. Evil begets evil and thus creates a spiral of escalation that can only be broken by good and pious deeds.

end.

So what do the atheists say to that?

Plato, if you are a spiritist, then you don't believe in a god and the question is not aimed at you.

---

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

platao"If the God related in all Holly books why does He ask to his angels to do his dirty Job or even asks humans to kill each others. As far as i remember He killed humans before so why does he need help?"

well thats bec.its apart of him being God, angels has given different task other than us human.killing? well God is the originator of life as well as death..how do u know life if death does not exist? evrything in this world is created in pairs.

"Born optimist nothing can keep me too low for so long"

3sure-hunk3r, that is the normal reply of a religious person without an answer

---

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

Supernurse:

Is Allah willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him Allah?

And now?

---

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

In arabic and Hebrew

"GOD" will become will be written as "DOG"

and "ALLAH" will be written as "HALLA"

and "YAHWEH" will be "HEWHAY"

Shamiri study Islam and u will get the answer.... it will tell you to know more about our God...I say our God, bec. whether u believe him or not he is still our God..and when you think of God Think of God that muslims are referring to....God is not just between that two adjectives.

"Born optimist nothing can keep me too low for so long"

No, you didn't change it Shamiri......you gave a few choices of names....

Shamiri: My reply would be: What's evil? Can evil be good depending on the point of view?

As a spiritist i don't belive in evil but i do belive in imperfect spirits and that our spirit has to keep heading to purity/perfection.

Let me add another question :

If the God related in all Holly books why does He ask to his angels to do his dirty Job or even asks humans to kill each others. As far as i remember He killed humans before so why does he need help?

Only God Can Judge Me

الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي

I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer

أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ

So I changed it What now SuperNurse?

---

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

God=Allah=Jaweh=*insert name of deity of choice*

---

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

Ok shamiri, lets say you change the word God that you use in your post to Allah.........here we go!

Shamiri, You are talking like a Hindu!

Uh huh, so answer this then:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

Doesn`t it bother you that you put more logical thought into choosing a car than you do in choosing a god?

As Einstein said: The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish.

If God exists, I hope he has a good excuse :-)

---

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

Shamiri: yes, guess that was the main reason to be called the dark age, people still belive in God, nowadays the difference is that we don't follow scholars blindly anymore, but try to act as racional beings.

Only God Can Judge Me

الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي

I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer

أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ

There was a time when most people believed in god and were obedient to church rule. It was called the Dark Ages.

---

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

All religeous preachers should be banned from the public forums.

If your mind and heart is clean....christian

Respect your conscience...

There is a saying "So many were called but few are chosen"

Pardon me if I’m wrong and if wasn't able to read all the verses...

Be yourself and live free

Babydoll: People that follow Islam are muslims

Only God Can Judge Me

الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي

I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer

أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ

I dont know why.. but jesus country is israel -middle east- isn't that mysterious that christianity is all over the world but except from arab countries..

its in the bible that jesus is well known around the world but other than his own counrty.."

Am not expert with christian bible but.. its just a mystery don't you think.

Am not against islam, to their teaching jesus was mentioned the son of god.. and thats how christian believes too..

I admire and amazed by Islam's believes .. and if you combined Islam and christianity what do it turns like?

But am happy with my religion, what matters is that you follow your religion by doing good deeds to people, trusting god and believing that there's only one god..

Christian teachings is all about pure heart to god and to others, trust to god and forgiveness to people who trespass you.

Islam has beatiful meanings too..

Each religion follows their beliefs.. and by doing that as christian or Islam.. nothing is different.. its all by following your religion teachings..

And upto us to be a better christian or Islam :)

i agree with you

Just caught the back end of the discussion.n Its all pretty subjective. I agree with your sentiments on the whole, but would disagree that Christians practice their religion better than Muslims in this region.. I know you used the word "tenets", but please let's not get into symantics.

In all regions / countries there are those who practice their religion and others who don't.

Just caught the back end of the discussion.n Its all pretty subjective. I agree with your sentiments on the whole, but would disagree that Christians practice their religion better than Muslims in this region.. I know you used the word "tenets", but please let's not get into symantics.

In all regions / countries there are those who practice their religion and others who don't.

Religion Again....come on time for a break mates

EVERY THING TURNS IN TO ARGUMENT, ITS ANNOYING

"Everything in this book may be wrong." Illusions: The Adventures of The Reluctant Messiah by Richard Bach

i'm creating my own religion.

it mostly occurs at night and forces people to drink to excess and engage in drunken deborchery.

I'm always trying to be your sputnik, but in the other hand, you are always dodging me like a run-away virgin nun.

LOL

“Be fearful when others are greedy, and be greedy when others are fearful,”

"Everything in this book may be wrong." Illusions: The Adventures of The Reluctant Messiah by Richard Bach

In case you are feeling anal about converting to christianity;

Don't forget to visit my confession booth for those extra points before entering eternity.

“Be fearful when others are greedy, and be greedy when others are fearful,”

Well, now you can see the double standard of Many QLers here. When some one post Islam related article, they are here with bashing of islam and muslims, now they are here again to defend and support this thread. I do not feel anything bad about the post as christian posted it here based on his belief and he has the right to do it since this is a public forum. And I do not see many bashing him though there are many muslims here. But the so called "modern" "religionless" people open their mouth to support the post as someone raised realistic questions.......

When Islamic articles are posted here, most of the so called people came to say that it is not religious forum, blah blah... Now what happened to you people??? Why are you there to support the thread????

"Everything in this book may be wrong." Illusions: The Adventures of The Reluctant Messiah by Richard Bach

I am so glad I read your mail. In a land of luxus and privilege we just take for granted so many things...

anyone a member of The Church of Christ here in Doha? please email me [email protected]...

anyone a member of The Church of Christ??

Dont you people have anything better to do than write mindless crap day after day

RS: nice to have u back, hope everything ok with you.

Only God Can Judge Me

الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي

I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer

أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ

No one is perfect but original sin is not logical for a clean just born baby. and i dont need saving from Jesus(pbuh) i can rely on his Creator the Lord of the Worlds.

Poverty is not for the sake of hardship. No, it is there because nothing exists but God. Poverty unlocks the door -- what a blessed key!

- Jalaluddin al-Rumi

YOu cannot but RELIGION from anywhere and I believe you know that...

His Holiness TFSM gladly accepts your praises :)

Hallelujah!!Praise the Lord!

with[out] religion is like walking in dark alley.. on an LSD trip

without religion is like walking in dark alley..

so embrace ONCE RELIGION whatever that may be..

peace! :)

"letting go doesn't mean ur weak,only shows you're stronger to let go"

MD: lol

Only God Can Judge Me

الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي

I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer

أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ

What is religion? I don't know what you're talking about. Can I buy it at Carrefour?

AMEN

Mani: Christians don't consider Jesus as being God, but consider him God's son, when he's crucified, according to the Bible, he said:

"Father, forgive them because they don't know what they do"

=========

"How many kids a chritian has to molestbefore he becomes an archbishop."

Happy: better not go that way, if i ain't wrong, Mohamed (PBUH) married a 6 year old girl and consumed marriage when she was 9. Wasn't he molesting a kid or child?

Only God Can Judge Me

الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي

I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer

أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ

How many kids a chritian has to molestbefore he becomes an archbishop.

THEIR IS NOT A SINGLE STATEMENT IN ANY OF THE DIFFERENT VERSIONS OF THE BIBLE IN WHICH JESUS SAYS IAM GOD OR WORSHIPPED ME, THATS THE CHALLENGE TO ALL THE CHRISTIANS TO PROVE DIVINITY OF THE CHRIST FROM THEIR BIBLE, IF THEY CAN. MANI

The very reason why I kept mum when everyone went crazy criticizing the other guy who posted his piece on his religion was cos I didn't quite like it myself. I didn't bother reading what was written there too. That guy probably didn't realize that posting stuff on his religion would not be welcome on QL. He was also stupid not to have known that there would always be a few people waiting for this opportunity and throw dirt back at his religion. Weird isn't it?

Getting to in your face topics, agreed yes it was controversial, but no one pushed you further to click your mouse button to read that thread. You all could have plain ignored those as yet another mobile phone ads. What followed thereafter is known to all and I don't wanna go thru it again.

-----------------------------------------

300 QL Points!!!

Yay! Way to go Ray!

-----------------------------------------

www.e4u.name.qa

In all fairness the Islam thread began with titles like "Islam: the perfect way of life for all" and "The Chosen Religion" and "Did you know you were born Muslim" etc. Which is a little more in your face then the titles on these Christian rants. Also, Qatari had dealt with this issue, so most people thought it was probably best to ignore them. I don't think this has anything to do with double standard and more to do with the fact that these threads were posted on the weekend and people were bored with the religious crap by then.

I feel your scorn and I accept it-Jon Stewart

Good comments :) I wonder why didn't your words came in defense for the other guy who posted stuff on Islam and was bombarded with words worse than mine?

All that I wanted to point out was the double standards people maintain. It's easy to speak that we'd have blasted rants on any other religion too. But did that really happen? I think you need to dig in a little more than page 1 and check out comments that were on offer in the other thread.

By the way, did Zakir Naik catch you sneaking past a mosque and force you to listen one of his lectures? Or if you did bump into one his lectures on the telly, you always had a remote with you.

The amount of crap that happens in the name of religion in India is known to everyone, who's discriminated and who's not, I don't even wanna get into that discussion. This is despite the fact that India is a secular country. Qatar is an Islamic country, a little respect would be appreciated.

-----------------------------------------

300 QL Points!!!

Yay! Way to go Ray!

-----------------------------------------

www.e4u.name.qa

Once again Sputnik, how much time have you spent in the West? Anyone who considers themself a Christian in the west is practicing that religion. Christianity is going through some upheavel now as it moves in to the 20th century, but that doesn't mean that people who consider themself Christian aren't following the religion. Could you please tell me which pope said that and when?

I feel your scorn and I accept it-Jon Stewart

I dont see anyone really practicing the tenets or principles of bible in the west, In fact even the pope said there was no hope for europe's future, once .

Thank you for words - "Mr. Christian, I've got two words for you. GET LOST! Please keep your faith with you and I am genuinely not interested in your verbal diarrhoea", exactly the kind of feeling most Non-Muslims get when some one tries to press his case either on this site or elsewhere(eg Zakir Naik) smugly with or without intellectual pretense.

Quiet lurker. Poor Contributer

Sarcasm is obviously lost on most of you people...lol

Oh for Pete's (please insert stronger words here) qatardune, go read a bible or Christian Answers which is where he cut and paste this garbage from, whatever you do don't encourage this crap!

I feel your scorn and I accept it-Jon Stewart

I occasionally listen to The Clash

I just found an eyelash in my drink.....

I lash out at Lash Larue, the singing cowboy......

The only person I lash out at is you Cutenik. :*

I feel your scorn and I accept it-Jon Stewart

Oh christ nw comes the sorry factor.....Some illegitimate excuse for lashing out at us....

Firstly, what I said was "The Ten commandments are a lot easier to follow then the Quran." If someone wants to disagree with me and say the Quran is a piece of cake to follow, then by all means please do. I for one would find it difficult not to drink, eat pork, pray five times a day and wear hijab. But I can't speak for others. And it was in response to Sputnik, not this post.

This post is just more religions drivel and nonesense, and in my opinion it's even worse than the Islamic stuff cause it's just a bunch of holy rolling bible thumping sinner bullsh*it. So I was just going to ignore it, but I did make one small comment (couldn't resist) I made a comment about the guy needing to be saved from stupidity. Sorry if it wasn't whitty enough, I'm a little hungover today and not on my top game. Really I thought I said everything I needed to say yesterday in my thread and Qatari said what he needed to in his. I will make an attempt to come up with some real harsh comments on his other threads.

I feel your scorn and I accept it-Jon Stewart

Please check qatari's latest post in the front page.

[img_assist|nid=7232|title=Dua|desc=Amen :-)|link=none|align=left|width=440|height=56]

Finally rayzz agreed too on the verbal diarohhea ..... oh i wud like to meet u in person....

I expected a much harder response from you just like the way you did for the other Islamic threads. All this while I've kept a lid on this topic, but I guess its about time to speak

Didn't actually expect you to say whether ten commandments of christianity are better to understand than Islam.

Whatever happened to your outspoken criticism on religious trolls and all the blah blah being posted here?

Mr. Christian, I've got two words for you. GET LOST! Please keep your faith with you and I am genunely not interested in your verbal diarrhoea .

-----------------------------------------

300 QL Points!!!

Yay! Way to go Ray!

-----------------------------------------

www.e4u.name.qa

Well you're just a hypocrite aren't you? LOL

Yes Cjpdad27, I love promoting Christianity, I can't be bothered to follow it myself, but I would like others too. Just the kind of person I am. :D

I feel your scorn and I accept it-Jon Stewart

When did you promote Christianity Gypsy? I don't remember that. I guess I will have to read over it again. Damn, my attention span!!

There is no Ban. And how am I trying to impose Christianity? I'm not Christian.

I feel your scorn and I accept it-Jon Stewart

Thais proves it gypsy u too are a religious fanatic imposing christianity on others...

First the Ban and then entry of fanatics

YOu mean these posts aren't filling you with the desire to convert!! You don't feel yourselves being touched by the Holy word of God. Shame Shame. :P

I feel your scorn and I accept it-Jon Stewart

Sorry Rander! I bow to your quicker response skills. :D

I feel your scorn and I accept it-Jon Stewart

Yes truth123 you are correct. The religion stuff is boring me as well.

see above

My Dad is kind of short actually. :P

I feel your scorn and I accept it-Jon Stewart

let me say that my dad is not bigger than your dad......

of people discussing religion on here.

My opinion of QL used to be of a helpful site, with hints tips, places to go and things to do.

As per Qataris post on dont bother to try and convert people, this is fast turning into "My Dad is bigger than your Dad" kind of situation. Yes we are all proud of our religion and believe that we are the champion/advocate for such...great be that, but be that in your own personal (again the key word being PERSONAL) world.

If you try and convert people you have lost the art of being an advocate and champion for your religion, by all means educate if asked a question on your chosen belief (however wouldnt personally believe in any book written hundreds of years after the supposed facts based on hear say and rumours).

We came we saw we were Qatarized

Because this post is about religion. That's just a guess though.

I feel your scorn and I accept it-Jon Stewart

see above

How do you know? Have you spoken to a lot of Christians in the West? No, you haven't. I would say more Christians in the West follow the tenants of their religion much more faithfully than Muslims here. The Ten commandments are a lot easier to follow then the Quran.

I feel your scorn and I accept it-Jon Stewart

My dear gypsy christians and muslims are there everywhere in the world.. Although i agree to the fact that not all muslims follow it but the number who do abide by some principles outnumber the proportion in the west....

Try to understand the question first before answering them....

Stop being overcritical.. and accpt facts....

I'm not a sinner and I don't need to be saved thank you. However I think you need to be saved from your own stupidty.

Sputnik, number 1: Christianity is not just in the West.

number 2: Do Muslims really follow the tenants of Islam in the Middle East, not really, but they like to pretend.

I feel your scorn and I accept it-Jon Stewart

Whats the whole purpose of changing ones faith? It reflects a lack of self-confidence in oneself? Whats ur opinion? And moreover does the west really follow the principles laid down in christianity? Comment

Whats the whole purpose of changing ones faith? It reflects a lack of self-confidence in oneself? Whats ur opinion?

Thanks, christian.

[img_assist|nid=7232|title=Dua|desc=Amen :-)|link=none|align=left|width=440|height=56]