Untouchables

Thank you all for your valuable comments. I really like S_isale last comment. Seems to be a fair and intelligent comment.

After the Sai Boubou issue, I researched about him. Came across a movie on YouTube. In there, a little girl was described as an Untouchable. This prompted me to ask.

Below is an article from National Geographic in 2003, source: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/06/0602_030602_untouchables_2.html

This is not that far ago considering one of you said it was abolished LONG time ago. Despite things can be abolished. It cannot be abolished alltogether. It remains in people mind and attitudes. I wonder if any Brahmin here would allow his daughter or son marry an untouchables.

India's "Untouchables" Face Violence, DiscriminationHillary Mayell

for National Geographic News

June 2, 2003

More than 160 million people in India are considered "Untouchable"—people tainted by their birth into a caste system that deems them impure, less than human. 160 MILLION IS NOT JUST TWO OR THREE PERSONS, IS IT?

Human rights abuses against these people, known as Dalits, are legion. A random sampling of headlines in mainstream Indian newspapers tells their story: "Dalit boy beaten to death for plucking flowers"; "Dalit tortured by cops for three days"; "Dalit 'witch' paraded naked in Bihar"; "Dalit killed in lock-up at Kurnool"; "7 Dalits burnt alive in caste clash"; "5 Dalits lynched in Haryana"; "Dalit woman gang-raped, paraded naked"; "Police egged on mob to lynch Dalits".

"Dalits are not allowed to drink from the same wells, attend the same temples, wear shoes in the presence of an upper caste, or drink from the same cups in tea stalls," said Smita Narula, a senior researcher with Human Rights Watch, and author of Broken People: Caste Violence Against India's "Untouchables."

India's Untouchables are relegated to the lowest jobs, and live in constant fear of being publicly humiliated, paraded naked, beaten, and raped with impunity by upper-caste Hindus seeking to keep them in their place. Merely walking through an upper-caste neighborhood is a life-threatening offense.

Nearly 90 percent of all the poor Indians and 95 percent of all the illiterate Indians are Dalits,WHAT? according to figures presented at the International Dalit Conference that took place May 16 to 18 in Vancouver, Canada.

Crime Against Dalits

Statistics compiled by India's National Crime Records Bureau indicate that in the year 2000, the last year for which figures are available, 25,455 crimes were committed against Dalits. Every hour two Dalits are assaulted; every day three Dalit women are raped, two Dalits are murdered, and two Dalit homes are torched.

No one believes these numbers are anywhere close to the reality of crimes committed against Dalits. Because the police, village councils, and government officials often support the caste system, which is based on the religious teachings of Hinduism, many crimes go unreported due to fear of reprisal, intimidation by police, inability to pay bribes demanded by police, or simply the knowledge that the police will do nothing.

"There have been large-scale abuses by the police, acting in collusion with upper castes, including raids, beatings in custody, failure to charge offenders or investigate reported crimes," said Narula.

That same year, 68,160 complaints were filed against the police for activities ranging from murder, torture, and collusion in acts of atrocity, to refusal to file a complaint. Sixty two percent of the cases were dismissed as unsubstantiated; 26 police officers were convicted in court.

Despite the fact that untouchability was officially banned when India adopted its constitution in 1950, discrimination against Dalits remained so pervasive that in 1989 the government passed legislation known as The Prevention of Atrocities Act. The act specifically made it illegal to parade people naked through the streets, force them to eat feces, take away their land, foul their water, interfere with their right to vote, and burn down their homes.

Since then, the violence has escalated, largely as a result of the emergence of a grassroots human rights movement among Dalits to demand their rights and resist the dictates of untouchability, said Narula.

Lack of Enforcement, Not Laws

Enforcement of laws designed to protect Dalits is lax if not non-existent in many regions of India. The practice of untouchability is strongest in rural areas, where 80 percent of the country's population resides. There, the underlying religious principles of Hinduism dominate.

Hindus believe a person is born into one of four castes based on karma and "purity"—how he or she lived their past lives. Those born as Brahmans are priests and teachers; Kshatriyas are rulers and soldiers; Vaisyas are merchants and traders; and Sudras are laborers. Within the four castes, there are thousands of sub-castes, defined by profession, region, dialect, and other factors.

Untouchables are literally outcastes; a fifth group that is so unworthy it doesn't fall within the caste system.

Although based on religious principles practiced for some 1,500 years, the system persists today for economic as much as religious reasons.

Because they are considered impure from birth, Untouchables perform jobs that are traditionally considered "unclean" or exceedingly menial, and for very little pay. One million Dalits work as manual scavengers, cleaning latrines and sewers by hand and clearing away dead animals. Millions more are agricultural workers trapped in an inescapable cycle of extreme poverty, illiteracy, and oppression.

Although illegal, 40 million people in India, most of them Dalits, are bonded workers, many working to pay off debts that were incurred generations ago, according to a report by Human Rights Watch published in 1999. These people, 15 million of whom are children, work under slave-like conditions hauling rocks, or working in fields or factories for less than U.S. $1 day.

Crimes Against Women

Dalit women are particularly hard hit. They are frequently raped or beaten as a means of reprisal against male relatives who are thought to have committed some act worthy of upper-caste vengeance. They are also subject to arrest if they have male relatives hiding from the authorities.

A case reported in 1999 illustrates the toxic mix of gender and caste.

A 42-year-old Dalit woman was gang-raped and then burnt alive after she, her husband, and two sons had been held in captivity and tortured for eight days. Her crime? Another son had eloped with the daughter of the higher-caste family doing the torturing. The local police knew the Dalit family was being held, but did nothing because of the higher-caste family's local influence.

There is very little recourse available to victims.

A report released by Amnesty International in 2001 found an "extremely high" number of sexual assaults on Dalit women, frequently perpetrated by landlords, upper-caste villagers, and police officers. The study estimates that only about 5 percent of attacks are registered, and that police officers dismissed at least 30 percent of rape complaints as false.

The study also found that the police routinely demand bribes, intimidate witnesses, cover up evidence, and beat up the women's husbands. Little or nothing is done to prevent attacks on rape victims by gangs of upper-caste villagers seeking to prevent a case from being pursued. Sometimes the policemen even join in, the study suggests. Rape victims have also been murdered. Such crimes often go unpunished.

Thousands of pre-teen Dalit girls are forced into prostitution under cover of a religious practice known as devadasis, which means "female servant of god." The girls are dedicated or "married" to a deity or a temple. Once dedicated, they are unable to marry, forced to have sex with upper-caste community members, and eventually sold to an urban brothel.

Resistance and Progress

Within India, grassroots efforts to change are emerging, despite retaliation and intimidation by local officials and upper-caste villagers. In some states, caste conflict has escalated to caste warfare, and militia-like vigilante groups have conducted raids on villages, burning homes, raping, and massacring the people. These raids are sometimes conducted with the tacit approval of the police.

In the province Bihar, local Dalits are retaliating, committing atrocities also. Non-aligned Dalits are frequently caught in the middle, victims of both groups.

"There is a growing grassroots movement of activists, trade unions, and other NGOs that are organizing to democratically and peacefully demand their rights, higher wages, and more equitable land distribution," said Narula. "There has been progress in terms of building a human rights movement within India, and in drawing international attention to the issue."

In August 2002, the UN Committee for the Elimination of Racial Discrimination (UN CERD) approved a resolution condemning caste or descent-based discrimination.

"But at the national level, very little(VERY LITTLE BECAUSE YOU ACCEPT THIS IDEA OF CASTE SYSTEM) is being done to implement or enforce the laws," said Narula.

There are issues and that need to be accepted. simply brushing them under the carpet will not let it go away.

Indians multiply very fast too!

Indians Divide and rule too.

And if they can divide & multiply..I am sure they can add and subtract too.

So from this we derive that Indians are good at Math.

Tinker, Am I missing some thing here?Which Indian on this thread is bashing Inda?

Ok, Lets close this Thread...

My (ok Our) Dear Friend UPFRONT had a query (how innocent he’s; God must bless him peace)…. Solved

Answer is : In General there is no untouchability but caste system prevails, however caste system is disappearing, almost negligible, in Metros, cities but exists in rural parts!!

…Over & out!!

We await another HATRED (nicely worded though) thread from India Obsessed Our Friend Mr UPFRONT !!!

I am with you Polkadots

Painther dear..

Polkadots commented on my post which I posted at 8.01 and I replied to it at 8.26. Pls go back and read...lol...

Thank you Panither, Tinker,... I cannot tolerate the extend of ignorance about our country, which is so special, none other in the whole world can come close.

ROfL, Polka posts at 8.25, Elegant Lady post (quite a few sentences) at 8.26 commenting on Polka's comments......in one minute--reading write editing posting...aha!!!!curious case of multiple Ids!!!!??

Spot on Painther!Here it's a Salwa dweller/Bachelor in the lowest rung , Qataries on the higest and all the rest neatly stacked in between....US,UK Germany you name it they ahve it all.

Polka..impressed with your insight!!!

Bytheay caste system will never be abolished from our society…..any society…. and in my Opinion there are only TWO classes- Rich & Poor……in India and across the Globe…it’ll remain so….

s_isale,

nothing is perfect my friend !!!!

as tinker said, untouchability is abolished....caste system remains....and in my opinion it'll remain..now TELL me which society doesn't have a caste/tiar system?

Polkadots, I agree with your points however I would still say that the main cause is the attitude which drives behaviour. I am not an Indian but learn a lot from my Indian friends/movies though. I can still say that untouchability remains as part of the caste system, it can not be eliminated unless caste system is destroyed and The caste system can not be destroyed in isolation because it has roots in the system of economic production. As Brit says the Government too moves on with the policies sadly at a very low pace.

Brite, The reason for the said people have many dynamic reasons and not just because they were Dalits,....The major one being the whole community being poor irrespective of the caste status! The situation is similar to the one problem Black Americans are facing in the US, wher all kinds of demographic and sociological studies show that blacks are occupying the jails more than the whites.... This is an out come of many complex situations all stemming from lack of funding-lesser education- not good living arrangements-ghetto lifestyle-… it is a vicious cycle which finally produces the mentioned outcome , and just because the said people were from a backward community as well that part gets highlighted,IMHO if people from any upper class were living in the same socioeconomic set up as the Dalits they too will be facing the same issued. Infact there are many uppercase Brahmins feeling letdown by the govt. with it’s policy of preferential treatment for some casts.

That said some villages in the Northern parts of India where both rich and poor are uneducated and where the major industry is still traditional farming, no modern practices have come about including that of doing away with caste system, this is not the norm but vestigial exceptions.

s_isale,

you got a case (ok a few cases) out of Billion....Now I challenge you......

You claim anything, any hypothesis and I'll get you more than one example of EXCEPTIONS.

TB, it is their even in the educated class. Why wsa the IG's office purified in Kerala a few days back.

britexpat, I dont know why but I've this feeling you are Upfront......I may be high on last night's overdose but....what to do yanni......even I think skewed at times ..:)

The previous Chief Justice of India, former President of India, current speaker of Lok-Sabha (parliament) are just a few name to mention…..

ohh bytheway why I’m feeding the troll….Upfront…ain’t you one who other day wrote (in Sai baba thread)…that Hinduism is..*expletives* *expletives* ??? Indians are ..*expletives* *expletives*……..perhaps the HATRED inside you is not letting you live in peace…..sorry for you really, GET WELL SOON…..

Why don’t you meet someone and learn a thing about India…if you are so desperately keen on it

For rest, ( & some not so elegant lady)…use google, ask me or any other Indians if you are seriously want to know…..

The Heading of this thread is misleading. I thought its about the Elite Members of QL...I mean, the Untouchables :P

You are right. Government has enacted legislation and things have improved immensly.. However, change is painfully slow - largely due to archaic thoughts and beliefs.

See link:

http://www.thehindu.com/news/the-india-cables/the-cables/article1568910.ece

Elegant lady , this is an accurate picture of the Indian society albeit more than 50 years ago . India has since moved on from being a colony to a superpower AND has abolished it’s caste system. Today the govt. has made reservations [quotas] for people from the previously marked backward communities in such huge proportions that a rich person from a backward[ previously untouchable]caste will still be eligible to enjoy all the benefits where a s a poor person from the upper caste will feel disadvantaged.

Fahad..

Friends come in many shapes, sizes and guises: school friends, work colleagues, siblings, partners, parents, pets, neighbours and QL'ers.I am sure you will find few good frieds soon however, once you have them you must know how to pull out all the stops and

let your friends know they are truly appreciated.You need to put on some hardwork towards it.

Elliot Ness is in India ?

I heard the untouchables had almost no rights in the society. In different parts of India they were treated in different ways. In some regions the attitude towards the untouchables was harsh and strict. In other regions it was less strict.

In general these people are a group of negelected resources of the country's economy. Who should be blamed for it? All Indians????

you can still find them .

Just a few days back, an IG's office in Kerala was cleansed(purified) when the incumbent retired since he was from a lower caste.

upfront, "How would you know if someone is Untouchables or not? Are they from a specific region in India? Do they speak Hindi or a dialect?"

ROFL.... Apart from them not having horns , They are usually sighted walking on two's instead of four's. Moreover they do not have a tail either!These would be the easier to spot differances the rest are vissible only up on closer inspection.

In India there are no untouchabile persons

For cast and deviations- the whole world have the deviation, even inside musilm, christian and hindus

Nomerci,i DO A LOT of stuff while i am home alone.I sing and make cover songs.Since ,I used to practice singing with my friend's band.I upload my song covers on face book .Would u like to listen to them.They are actually good :)

i can manage.It's just that my own friend ignored me and left me.I read in a University.At the time.i ditched my whole batch to be with him as my best friend.And when i needed him,he didn't even bother calling me or talking to me.So i was deeply hurt.Since then i am alone and it's hard to get a friend now here in Qatar.I tried looking for people online.But no one replies back.So it is now like a lonely place for me.I am usually isolated.

Fahad, to come back to your problem...why do you think you can't manage to find friends?

Fahad, as sorry as i am that you have no friends, truly regrettable and sad, I was asking that question in connection with this thread...as you seem to be deeply upset if people are treated badly due to who they are.

Nomerci.I have been living here for many years.I studied here.I like Qatar but i feel bored here to be honest as i have no friends.I don't have anything against Qatar.I just wish,i could go out with some one and enjoy my life over here.That would be so nice.

Nomerci.I have been living here for many years.I studied here.I like Qatar but i feel bored here to be honest as i have no friends.I don't have anything against Qatar.I just wish,i could go out with some one and enjoy my life over here.That would be so nice.

Still, I would like to know if there are any Untouchables who have achieved very high in life. How would you know if someone is Untouchables or not? Are they from a specific region in India? Do they speak Hindi or a dialect? Are they poor and full of dust as they typically are shown on TV? Are there any member of Indian Parliament or Bollywood actors who are Untouchables. I am just curious. I know it is a very old tradition. I wanna know if things have changed in the 21st century. Does this literally mean you cannot and physically touch them. If so, who treats them when they are sick? I am just curious.

Yes untouchables are very dusty. They attract a lot of dust from the atmosphere! You cannot really get rid of the dust in their body even by dusting them for hours!

WK. Really? Oh, I get it. Great one. lol.

Yes an untouchable was the chairman of the drafting committee of the Indian constitution.

The constitution of India is written by an "Untouchable"

Yes MK Gandhi is Mahatma Gandhi.

There were many others who started to fight against this casteism but Gandhi was most successful.

Fahad...true....so tell me, how do you like Qatar?

Edifis. Cheers. Do you mean Mahatma Gandhi? I am not sure who is MK Gandhi.

First of all.It is so disgusting to treat someone as an untouchable.All human beings are equal.This is a cheap thing to do.Very backward.

MK Gandhi has abolished untouchability based on caste.

But I would not touch someone who doesn't wash his was properly after using the loo or picks his nose! These are still untouchables for me.