klaatu--Every citizen has a say in America, but that does not mean that everyone has the freedom to do as they choose. So I am not quite sure what your point is.
"reminds me of the time when the Pope used to villify the muslims and Islam to gather support for the Crusades....sounds familiar right?"
I didn't realize you were alive then :-) But the decision to discuss a ban on circumcision is hardly the same. When people make such ridiculous comparisons in order to whine about victimization it just turns rational non-Muslims away. Besides, let's remember that the Crusades were not designed to conquer Muslim lands; they were designed to RETAKE Christian lands conquered during the Arab conquests.
With regard to your second point: "In secular countries right and wrong are continuously changing as it depends on mans whims and desires at that time." I agree, but I would also say the same about Muslim countries (or any theocracy for that matter). While the holy text may not change the Interpretations by men do. Otherwise how do you explain all the changes in Muslim countries (including this one) over the years? All worldly governments are subject to human whims and fallibility.
There is no requirement for Christians, for Jews it is required of converts, I have no idea about Islam"
I just wanted to clarify that it is not a logical discussion in response to the above statement.
There are many muslims in america who think america is their country...do they not have a say in this matter/discussion?
Maybe it is part of the anti Islam vibe sweeping the US and Europe at the moment...reminds me of the time when the Pope used to villify the muslims and Islam to gather support for the Crusades....sounds familiar right?
Statements like; Islam is demonic, barbaric, oppressive..." were played time after time...so nothing really has changed right over the last 1400 years?
The non-muslims will always have a bias against Islam. This is for sure.
My second point is that all actions are material; there is no right or wrong in them. It takes something external to them to define them as right or wrong. Muslims have Islam as their guide to determine the goodness or badness of actions. In secular countries right and wrong are continuously changing as it depends on mans whims and desires at that time.
klaatu-- this American city is not Islamic. It is secular, and it is their country and so their rules. And their rules allow a free discussion of the merits before making a law.
And immunizations and operations are hardly the same thing, as I am sure you realize. Their is no significant health risk to NOT circumcising a baby.
Circumcision is a part of Filipino culture whether your a Christian or a Muslim. At an early age somewhat 6 to 8 boys are already obliged to be circumcised. Some are even circumcised at birth, but mostly boys who nearly reaches adolescent needs to be circumcised. Most circumcision happens in summer where there are no classes and ample time is available to totally heal the wounds. It's part of growing up. There are no rules or regulations in our country that boys needs to be circumcised but it has been a part already of the Filipino culture and a connotation as well for hygienic purposes, circumcision is a must. It was really my greatest fear to be circumcised as I don't think if I can bear the pain. Surprisingly I was able to get through with that "ordeal". Anesthesia was injected into it to ease the pain. After the surgery, I have to stay home for 2 to 3 weeks till the wounds are totally healed. After the 3 weeks ordeal, it a relief for me that I was able to make it, ready to face adolescent and manhood..
Frenchie..it's not a logical discussion because where would you draw the line?
How about not giving babies and infants injections? or operating on them for that matter?
It's a rule in Islam. Period. We don't discuss the benefits unless it is mentioned in the text that so and so is a benefit. Otherwise we hear and obey!
Quran 2:216"But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But God knoweth, and ye know not."
I'm not a dictionary for the illiterate. Try using the dictionary function on your computer or this link will help: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/idiot.
I'm sure (well . . . maybe I'm not sure) that you have the intelligence to figure out what those words mean all by yourself. None have more than three syllables, so go ahead and give it a try. LOL!
Flor--Did you NOT see the word children in my statement you quoted? LOL. Quit throwing softballs; you making this too easy.
Elaph--no nerves in hair or nails. But I think the better response is the one you gave with regard to driving in KSA: "their country their rules , they understand their country better"
I wouldn't do it to my children, but if they chose to do it for themselves when they were older, then I wouldn't stop them. For me the issue is informed consent.
Besides, slicing off a portion of a baby's genitalia is not quite the same as having an ear pierced.
plain and simple... for those who don't bother to clean themselves ever, I suppose that there would be a problem, just the same if you don't clean your ears, or brush your teeth.
Second, I always find that its women who always voice the strongest positive opinion on this and they have no idea.... girls, go get yourselves mutilated if its such a concern,,,,
QS, my both sons were circumcised at the age of 5. According to the latest study if you consult any Physician s/he would recommend (as my uncle did)that circumcision should not be performed on infants under 6 months of age. This brings up the question: when is the best time to perform circumcision?
Rather than going by the Hadiths and following the practice by our forefathers we must see which suits best for our sons and decide based on the benefits though it is very challenging. My point is the boys should be circumsised at the best age so that the surgical result will be more precise as I had gone through this experience with my own kids.
House wife, what are you talking about? they supposed to be circumcised when they even cannot answer your question, and when they have no idea what the knife is... as the matter of fact they even don't know who they are and where they are.. "Muslims are circumcised as early as on the seventh day after birth and as late as at the commencement of puberty.[1] According to some hadith (Abdullah Ibn Jabir and Aisha), Muhammad circumcised his grandsons on the seventh day after their birth." (Wikipedia)
my brother volunteered, even begged my parents to get himself circumcised when he was around 9 or 10 years old. we went to the neighborhood doctor with his friends one summer day when both of our parents were at work.
in our culture, it's a rite of passage that's supposed to turn boys into men. a boy who's not circumcised by the time he's in high school is heavily ridiculed. girls will have to deal with the pains of menstruation and childbirth their whole life. boys should experience physical pain at least once in their life. at least that's what my dad told me when i asked.
Any child, asked if they would like a person with a knife to cut off part of a part, would agree to such an action? This would be a normal psychological reaction to the threat of attack and they are not usually allowed to say no to medical procedures because it is deemed that parents & doctors "know the best" which is very true. However as a mum I fully agree with your points too.
There are many opinions about the risks and benefits of circumcision. Feelings and beliefs are strong on both sides of the argument. Opponents claim that the procedure causes psychological damage on the contrary the benefits are too widely discussed however I agree with the experts who say infants shouldn't be circumcised and suitable time for it is age-5
nomerci, its one of the stupid practices which stems from the misconception that giving away a part of our body to god would please him. there could be a more practical reason linked to this practice, like, in a place where water was scarce, shedding the foreskin probably was considered hygienic.
this practice was prevalent even before islam was an established religion.
I never understood why people chop a part of their todger off.....very odd! Especially those that believe that God made them...did he not make them with that part??? Or was that a mistake?
frenchieman, it is indeed a Jewish "invention". King David (1.000 BC) told his soldiers to bring the foreskin of those killed to prove that they were not Jews. I guess, Islam adopted many Jewish practices. I wonder why they hate them so much?
There are still people who try to attract cheap attention and talk about things they should not talk about. There are more important things to do, if one has free time. California has one of the highest population of jews in US. I think they will mind.
He should tell people to stop piercing baby girls ears.
"How about this... if you are against circumcision, don't do it in your family. But my GOSH already, stop trying to tell people what they can or can't do based on what you think and feel."
This is a sneaky assault on religious freedom and must be stopped! San Francisco is known as a gay atheist city and now they are trying to convert good religious people to their cause.
just ask the converts! I doubt, Inshallah, such a ban will ever be passed. Too many people of too many faiths will be affected. Not just the religious mind you get such procedures done. I know some non religious folks who get their little boys circumcised for medical reasons and to avoid certain complications as well.
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klaatu--Every citizen has a say in America, but that does not mean that everyone has the freedom to do as they choose. So I am not quite sure what your point is.
"reminds me of the time when the Pope used to villify the muslims and Islam to gather support for the Crusades....sounds familiar right?"
I didn't realize you were alive then :-) But the decision to discuss a ban on circumcision is hardly the same. When people make such ridiculous comparisons in order to whine about victimization it just turns rational non-Muslims away. Besides, let's remember that the Crusades were not designed to conquer Muslim lands; they were designed to RETAKE Christian lands conquered during the Arab conquests.
With regard to your second point: "In secular countries right and wrong are continuously changing as it depends on mans whims and desires at that time." I agree, but I would also say the same about Muslim countries (or any theocracy for that matter). While the holy text may not change the Interpretations by men do. Otherwise how do you explain all the changes in Muslim countries (including this one) over the years? All worldly governments are subject to human whims and fallibility.
Frenchie stated. "
There is no requirement for Christians, for Jews it is required of converts, I have no idea about Islam"
I just wanted to clarify that it is not a logical discussion in response to the above statement.
There are many muslims in america who think america is their country...do they not have a say in this matter/discussion?
Maybe it is part of the anti Islam vibe sweeping the US and Europe at the moment...reminds me of the time when the Pope used to villify the muslims and Islam to gather support for the Crusades....sounds familiar right?
Statements like; Islam is demonic, barbaric, oppressive..." were played time after time...so nothing really has changed right over the last 1400 years?
The non-muslims will always have a bias against Islam. This is for sure.
My second point is that all actions are material; there is no right or wrong in them. It takes something external to them to define them as right or wrong. Muslims have Islam as their guide to determine the goodness or badness of actions. In secular countries right and wrong are continuously changing as it depends on mans whims and desires at that time.
what I don't like is saying the word "barbaric" as it connotes a very very bad matter such as "stoning to death" or "beheading" as many perceives!
klaatu-- this American city is not Islamic. It is secular, and it is their country and so their rules. And their rules allow a free discussion of the merits before making a law.
And immunizations and operations are hardly the same thing, as I am sure you realize. Their is no significant health risk to NOT circumcising a baby.
Circumcision is a part of Filipino culture whether your a Christian or a Muslim. At an early age somewhat 6 to 8 boys are already obliged to be circumcised. Some are even circumcised at birth, but mostly boys who nearly reaches adolescent needs to be circumcised. Most circumcision happens in summer where there are no classes and ample time is available to totally heal the wounds. It's part of growing up. There are no rules or regulations in our country that boys needs to be circumcised but it has been a part already of the Filipino culture and a connotation as well for hygienic purposes, circumcision is a must. It was really my greatest fear to be circumcised as I don't think if I can bear the pain. Surprisingly I was able to get through with that "ordeal". Anesthesia was injected into it to ease the pain. After the surgery, I have to stay home for 2 to 3 weeks till the wounds are totally healed. After the 3 weeks ordeal, it a relief for me that I was able to make it, ready to face adolescent and manhood..
correct
Frenchie..it's not a logical discussion because where would you draw the line?
How about not giving babies and infants injections? or operating on them for that matter?
It's a rule in Islam. Period. We don't discuss the benefits unless it is mentioned in the text that so and so is a benefit. Otherwise we hear and obey!
Quran 2:216"But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But God knoweth, and ye know not."
Like I say before this is sneaky attack on Muslims. The baby feels nothing in circumcision.
instead of unnecessary talks and arguments y dnt u guys go thru the details and finding the benefits of it.
I'm not a dictionary for the illiterate. Try using the dictionary function on your computer or this link will help: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/idiot.
I'm sure (well . . . maybe I'm not sure) that you have the intelligence to figure out what those words mean all by yourself. None have more than three syllables, so go ahead and give it a try. LOL!
it's barbaric. Can you define barbaric, please? And cruelty, since you mentioned it also? We're talking about circumcision here!
"the more early they do the lesser pain they have"--how do you know that?
I am not a religious authority, but I hate those parents who insist on circumcision of very young children who are not even fit for anesthesia.
It would be even crueler for a parent to do this to an eight-year-old than a newborn.
The legal definition of an infant is a minor before the age of majority, if you want to get technical. Or you could just ask me what I meant. ROFL.
doesn't necessarily meant abuse of infant alone. So children to you are just infants? Just clarifying another softball!
Flor--Did you NOT see the word children in my statement you quoted? LOL. Quit throwing softballs; you making this too easy.
Elaph--no nerves in hair or nails. But I think the better response is the one you gave with regard to driving in KSA: "their country their rules , they understand their country better"
"Circumcision is a barbaric practice and an abuse of children. It should be banned"
Read more: http://www.qatarliving.com/node/1787583#new#ixzz1PnaZH09k
Who are you to say what I mean?
Perhaps I should start interpreting the meaning of your posts and then telling you what you mean. LOL!
hmmm removing children nails,hair...etc all barbaric act too? i guess we should wait until they are 18
of the discussion, the whole report was about circumcision of people less than 18! And when you say it is barbaric, you mean the procedure itself!
The OP (which I started) is about infant circumcision. My comments were in that context. I couldn't care less if an adult male decided to it.
As to "So slicing by a medical practitioner to you is barbaric? So all operations that involves removal of anything is barbaric?"
Don't be ridiculous.
you object it on babies only, not to adult person? Because your wording of "barbaric" encompasses all!
So slicing by a medical practitioner to you is barbaric? So all operations that involves removal of anything is barbaric?
I wouldn't do it to my children, but if they chose to do it for themselves when they were older, then I wouldn't stop them. For me the issue is informed consent.
Besides, slicing off a portion of a baby's genitalia is not quite the same as having an ear pierced.
Circumscison is the right of every free man. Iám not free. I have a price on my head per month. My salary.
OK, I'll stick with "humane" then :-)
what is barbaric about it? Do you consider ear-piercing of female babies barbaric?
when it's not mandatory?
just fill the blank!
They're what flor1212, humane?
as someone above said, those who propose the ban mean they are ............! Plain and simple!
plain and simple... for those who don't bother to clean themselves ever, I suppose that there would be a problem, just the same if you don't clean your ears, or brush your teeth.
Second, I always find that its women who always voice the strongest positive opinion on this and they have no idea.... girls, go get yourselves mutilated if its such a concern,,,,
now let me get back to working on my truck :)
curious case!!
People believe God is perfect and its creation (humanbeings)too; then, why to 'alter' this 'perfection??
IMO, it's driven by traditions, customs ....and if this alteration is SO perfect, why all are not following it?
QS, my both sons were circumcised at the age of 5. According to the latest study if you consult any Physician s/he would recommend (as my uncle did)that circumcision should not be performed on infants under 6 months of age. This brings up the question: when is the best time to perform circumcision?
Rather than going by the Hadiths and following the practice by our forefathers we must see which suits best for our sons and decide based on the benefits though it is very challenging. My point is the boys should be circumsised at the best age so that the surgical result will be more precise as I had gone through this experience with my own kids.
You can read further
http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org/info/freeman.html
I can't understand the practice but a comprehensive ban on it should not be there.
I did circumcised my ears, The removal of the pieces of flesh was use to help that member in growth.....
House wife, what are you talking about? they supposed to be circumcised when they even cannot answer your question, and when they have no idea what the knife is... as the matter of fact they even don't know who they are and where they are.. "Muslims are circumcised as early as on the seventh day after birth and as late as at the commencement of puberty.[1] According to some hadith (Abdullah Ibn Jabir and Aisha), Muhammad circumcised his grandsons on the seventh day after their birth." (Wikipedia)
Well, where I come from, people don;t do this, nobody sees the need for it.
my brother volunteered, even begged my parents to get himself circumcised when he was around 9 or 10 years old. we went to the neighborhood doctor with his friends one summer day when both of our parents were at work.
in our culture, it's a rite of passage that's supposed to turn boys into men. a boy who's not circumcised by the time he's in high school is heavily ridiculed. girls will have to deal with the pains of menstruation and childbirth their whole life. boys should experience physical pain at least once in their life. at least that's what my dad told me when i asked.
Well, each to their own,,,if people think it is more hygienic or attractive, ok, their business.
BUT, to do it for religious reasons, hmm, that seems almost paradox to me. But, again, each to their own.
QS
Any child, asked if they would like a person with a knife to cut off part of a part, would agree to such an action? This would be a normal psychological reaction to the threat of attack and they are not usually allowed to say no to medical procedures because it is deemed that parents & doctors "know the best" which is very true. However as a mum I fully agree with your points too.
Circumcision is very healthy.. it's cleaner.. makes huge difference (for better) in appearance too..
house_wife, how it might cause psychological damage to a baby?
Another thing when they circumcise females to deprive them of sensitivity. this is a barbaric practice; crime and shame..
DK,I agree though,
There are many opinions about the risks and benefits of circumcision. Feelings and beliefs are strong on both sides of the argument. Opponents claim that the procedure causes psychological damage on the contrary the benefits are too widely discussed however I agree with the experts who say infants shouldn't be circumcised and suitable time for it is age-5
ha ha ha DICKSON HEAD is gone
nomerci, its one of the stupid practices which stems from the misconception that giving away a part of our body to god would please him. there could be a more practical reason linked to this practice, like, in a place where water was scarce, shedding the foreskin probably was considered hygienic.
this practice was prevalent even before islam was an established religion.
am sure many other countries in the world could then start the Mekweta traditions;-p
Nomerci,
you can read the advantages of boys being circumcised here..
http://www.circinfo.com/benefits/bmc.html
I never understood why people chop a part of their todger off.....very odd! Especially those that believe that God made them...did he not make them with that part??? Or was that a mistake?
simple! those who wanted it banned? is uncircumcised... ewwwwww... lol
LP, this is a major misconception that muslims hate jews because of being jews. But this thread is the wrong place to open and discuss the subject.
and how they'r going to make the control ?
drop your pants I wanna see your trump ?
Won't be banned in America as it is a jewish practice, theres more chance of a gun ban in Texas
frenchieman, it is indeed a Jewish "invention". King David (1.000 BC) told his soldiers to bring the foreskin of those killed to prove that they were not Jews. I guess, Islam adopted many Jewish practices. I wonder why they hate them so much?
non religious folks???
Very funny.
There are still people who try to attract cheap attention and talk about things they should not talk about. There are more important things to do, if one has free time. California has one of the highest population of jews in US. I think they will mind.
He should tell people to stop piercing baby girls ears.
In Islam..yes.
There is no requirement for Christians, for Jews it is required of converts, I have no idea about Islam.
just a doubt, is it mandatory for new joinee/convert to go for circumcision ?
Circumcision is a barbaric practice and an abuse of children. It should be banned.
Quote
"How about this... if you are against circumcision, don't do it in your family. But my GOSH already, stop trying to tell people what they can or can't do based on what you think and feel."
This is a sneaky assault on religious freedom and must be stopped! San Francisco is known as a gay atheist city and now they are trying to convert good religious people to their cause.
Will never pass. Interferes too much with freedom of religion.
just ask the converts! I doubt, Inshallah, such a ban will ever be passed. Too many people of too many faiths will be affected. Not just the religious mind you get such procedures done. I know some non religious folks who get their little boys circumcised for medical reasons and to avoid certain complications as well.
" Gods's great Banana skin"
So wait until you are 18? OUCH!
Someone should inform him that it becomes much more painful as one gets older ...