Dear Moderators

if you still don't know the differenece between legitimate business visa and "bought" business visa, you have no business discussing it here.

Your kind of encouragement is precisely the reason why so many "kabayans" are suffering here! The least you can do is discourage it but you opted to encourage it? Poor you!

Please stop preaching about impropriety flor, first of all you also entered this country on a business visa, then you use the same business visa to complete your job probationary period of three months. Your company improperly used the business visa by allowing you to work for them and you improperly used your business visa to work for the company (http://www.qatarliving.com/node/1600731).

In some parts of the world, people brave the oceans, seas and the deserts to get to another country without papers or proper documents just to get a job. Many of them died along the way, many are caught and sent back. Desperate people do desperate things to have a better life for themselves and their families.

At least be thankful that your kabayans arrive here safely by plane...and with proper documents (purchased or not).

some people never learn.

visa not in the proper way do exist and should we say rampant in my country. It's a (bad) choice taken by some of my countrmen who chose this "improper ways" to get here. What is being discussed over and over again is when trouble comes (like OFFLOADING) during departure, DO NOT COMPLAIN, it's a risk taken and accept consequences.

The scenarios always debated are people with "bought" business visa being offloaded and SHOUTING being unjustifiably offloaded when caught by airport authorities, as if they have not done any inpopriety.

The case of our friend are classic case of success from an impopriety and should NOT BE BRAG ABOUT, and should NOT BE ENCOURAGE because more often than not, it ends in a negative way.

Milky, where did you see me saying it's not happening? I am the one who is aware of it more than anyone else! And I am the one who is fighting this "gray market" for the last 2-3 years. I never said it's not happening.

Neither I ever said that looking for the job by itself is illegal. Anyone is free to look for better (or any) job at any point of the globe and at any moment of their life. Regardless to the type of the visa (if ANY) they hold. What I am saying is it's illegal to purchase a business visa.

As for the explanation of the immigration stuff:

So here is the scenario. One comes on a Visit or Business visa irrespect on what ever their motives are. They apply to companies, get an interview, get a job offer and a proper Visa is then issued. They will flyout of Qatar and then come back on proper visa. But in Visit Visa case you dont need to leave the country you can just pay QR500 and the visa will be transfered.

I am really sorry darling, but the entire above statement is wrong.

First, what is "Visit visa"? ANY visa issued by Qatar government is a VISIT type of visa, including a Work visa. It's done to let us feel that we ALL are VISITORS here.

Second, what is "Proper visa"? Any type of visa, issued by the Government is a proper visa. The problem is whether this "proper" visa was obtained legally or not.

Third, they not necessary have to fly out of Qatar. It depends on many factors, starting from what type of visa is issued by the hiring company. If Work visa is issued, ANY type of other visa can be switched to Work visa without leaving Qatar.

She has a brother who came on a visa brought from a company which was a work visa last year. Her sister came on a Visit/buisness visa for 3 months this Februaury. She herself came on a bought visit/business visa a few years ago and got a job..:)

Sorry to say but it is very common practice with Kabayans. I know so many Kabayans who are here this way.

Padre a mutual friend did that for her sister not sure if her sister has got a job or not..:)

but she\s not so active in QL nowadayas. The last time was when she greeted me on my 50th! Was it a sister or her brother? I think the person has a job now. Whetehr underpaid or underemploy, that's the question!

before in Dubai and honestly, many find a good job. But that many doesn't means it's right. So the government start a crackdown to minimize if not totally eliminate it. But still, maybe out of desperation or just plain stupidity (and syndicate operating in our country), still many tries to take the risk and find themselves off-loaded. And the they complain of corruption, blah blah blah. The airport authorities just want bribes (in the first place if you give them reason to extolt money, they will do it, by all means). People just need to learn to follow rules so corruption can be minimized if not totally eliminated.

flor1212 Padre you are right with that. But what to do Yanni if people keep on using this route, either not knowing the consequces or by choice. Question is that is it worth taking this risk? For some it may pay off, but for other it will just bring more misery..:)

but it's no fun at the deportation jail, or at the POLO refuge center. It is not also funny working underpaid or underemploy because one was forced to accept a job offer out necessity to "just" land a job at all cost because they have a lot of debt to pay back home for illegaly buying a business visa and coming here!!

Well Qatarisun I cannot explain to you in any more plain English. If you want to close your eyes and think that these kind of things don't exist then you are only fooling yourself. I am not explaining any Immigration rules to you my dear, I am just stating the mere fact what is going on, there is a clear difference, right or wrong is completely a different matter altogether.

Peace be upon you too..:)

Guys, you are just missing the point! Nomad! Of course to look for a job while you are on business visa IS LEGAL! When on the earth to look for a job is illegal? You always can work and look for a job at the same time!! Who on the earth can prevent you from doing it? You work for the company which brought you to Qatar as a short- term employee LEGALLY, you DO really work for this company, and at the same time looking for the permanent job.. Why not?.. what's wrong with that?? ILLEGAL is when you BUY a business visa to come to Qatar, and do not work for this company! Are you guys kidding by pretending that you cannot see the difference? Or you r really such silly???

Milky, your attempts to explain the immigration rules to ME sound pathetic.Really sorry for saying it :), no offense! It's like if I tried to explain to the highly professional doctor how to better conduct the surgery..

Peace...

flor you are so funny really. Anyway out of respect to the OP Im not going to reply to you because it will be way out of topic.I was right all along and thats what matters to me.

well, how many of U, who have option for getting visa on arrival on Qatar Airport, have got offer for a job sitting back in homes?

it's not illegal. What we are pointing here is the illegal procuremet of buisness visa. I said it many times, I came here on a business visa but procured by a legitimate company and I did pass an agency.

The issue at stake are our countrymen who will BUY a business visa issued by unscrupulous person with no guarantee, which is illegal per se.

Don't twist the fact Nomad. And please, DO NOT ENCOURAGE SUCH ACTIVITIES because it's illegal and very risky and holders are open for abuse and exploitation!

And the mere fact that they did not pass the legal way of becoming OFW, they are presumed undocumeted OFW and when trouble arise can not get due assistance from concerned government agency (which there are a lot of cases right now at POLO office and at the deportation jail! I hope you UNDERSTAND that?

so...looking for a job on a business or visit visa in Qatar is not ILLEGAL after all...mmmm

..you reading this flor?

Qatarisun,

So you agree that looking for Job while on Business Visa is not a problem, hence seeking advice should neither be.I think you said it yourself!

So here is the scenario. One comes on a Visit or Business visa irrespect on what ever their motives are. They apply to companies, get an interview, get a job offer and a proper Visa is then issued. They will flyout of Qatar and then come back on proper visa. But in Visit Visa case you dont need to leave the country you can just pay QR500 and the visa will be transfered.

I give you an example of our maid. She came her on a visit visa sponsored by her sister. We had a filipina visa for her when she arrived. We transfered her visa to our visa bingo no problem. Even though her motive for coming her was to work for us she came on a Visit visa which means that she enter Qatar technically to visit her sister, but ended up working for us.

I trust you got my point..:)

Qatarisun, Please read my comments again and tell me where have I said that purchasing visa was legal? All I said is that you can purchase a Business Visa just like a Visit Visa.

Business Visa will allow you to stay in Qatar for 3 months where as the Visit Visa is only for one month.

It appears that you are naive about the fact that this kind of activities are going on or just dont want to acknowledge it. I would expect you to understand that everything and anything goes on here.

The explanation you gave about the types of visa are spot on. But please dont make a statement that these activities even though may not be right are not happening. If you want I can give a few places you can go yourself and verify it.

Just because you and I and many like us would get a visa on arrival we could come here any time for a interview but many others use the purchased visa route.

Just read hyperlulucemia's comment above will show you that these kind of activities are going on.

So back to the OP complaint to the moderators I still think that advice should be given irrespect of the issue.

Milky_BarKid, with all my respect to you.. you are wrong! BUSINESS visa purchased through "agency" is illegal visa! And NO ONE HOTEL in Doha will sell you a business visa ! Such Hotel will be shut down next day! Business visa purchased by "non-business" individual has no sense. You as a native english speaker have to see the difference between "Visa for Business" and "Visa for Tourism". You mix 2 things. To come on the visa on arrival (which is apparently a tourist visa!) and to find a job later IS LEGAL. To purchase a BUSINESS visa is ILLEGAL. I don't say that looking for (and finding) a job while on Business visa is illegal. I say, PURCHASING a business visa is illegal.

Let's take a look at another scenario. One has been invited as a short-term employee by some Company and a business visa has been issued for him legally , by inviting company. The individual enters Qatar, WORKS for the inviting company, is looking for the job, and eventually finds it. ALL THAT is LEGAL. No any problem with that.

The problem is when one PURCHASES a business visa to enter Qatar, while, as nomercy mentioned, has no any business here whatsoeve. Guess what.. LOOKING for a job itself isn't illegal! the question is HOW have you entered Qatar?

I trust you got my point!

In my country people who wants to come here using tourist/business visa is being harassed and demanding them to pay 2,000 QR, CASH- ON THE SPOT! by the Immigration Authorities(under table) in the waiting lounge if they are not able to give this amount they will be unloaded, minute away from taking off the plane!!! and they know about it even before buying visa from the Qatari sponsors.

at homeland are desperate. But MOST job-seekers who holds bought visa are desperate to find or land a job and are more prone to exploitation because they are running out of time and money to keep themselves here.

Isale, this happens everywhere... every new employee is a happy camper, after a while he/she will start looking for entitlements. THAT'S our nature! :)

thats the point. People buy a business visa thinking getting a job in Doha is as easy as buying Pepsi from a grocery shop. When its time for their visa to expire, they are willing to take any job on offer whatever be the salary.

The employers are at an advantage here as they know that the person on business/visit visa is desperate to get the job and will be willing to take it up even with the lowest offer.

Once they take up the job, you can see them complaining about low salary, more working hours and mistreatment...

but you can't stop these employers from taking ADVANTAGE of these people holding visit and business visa illegally obtained. Because they are spending less and less by exploiting these people!

And precisely why these kind of visa-buying was restricted by our government because holders are usually exploited here and in other countries where they are not legally arrived at!

Indeed, and that is why rules are tightened more and more, and as I and others said several times, it gets more and more difficult for those who do the right thing.

For your information, you can purchase a Business Visa or a visit visa from travel agents, manpower agencies and hotels etc etc.

The difference between is that one is cheaper visit visa which is for one month and the business visa is for 3 months.

What you have written above is right in principle however the problem is that people come here, in every and any way they can, to find work which is the ugly truth.

An ex-colleague/friend who came on a business visa (which was bought) has landed herself an assistant accountant job at a well know American University in Education City.

If one has a business visa, a not bought one,it was obtained by the business one is working for to do business for them over here. NOT to find a job in Qatar...albeit, this is what seems to happen. People buy them ,illegally, to find work here.

A visit visa is to VISIT Qatar, not to find work here.

Seems a lot of people don't know those facts.:/

Fateh - And your point is? MBK's or anybody's passport need not have a direct correlation to their mindset.

Cabbage Dear you are right in many ways.

Lets start from the beginning where these illegal activities start from. It is the Business and Visit Visa which is been abused as claimed by the OP. I can name a dozen or more QLers here who actually were employed through coming on purchased Business visa and then landing good jobs including Westerners who came on, On arrival visa's.

Now unlike the citizens of the countries who can obtain visa on arrival and then come and work and even find good jobs, the others do the same thing by purchasing a visa to come here and to find a job.

If some one is asking a question related to obtaining a job with a Business Visa then the advice is not illegal and should be allowed on QL. If the travel agencies and other companies stop selling these Visit visas and Business visas in the first place there will be no one asking such questions.

Secondly why do Employers entertain such applicants on Business and Visit visa in the first place? Should the Employers not have strict requirements that they will not entertain such applicants?

So the advice to OP is no matter how good your intention may sound but you cannot change the system. It is a common practice here in Qatar and the authorities do not see any problem with it, otherwise they would’ve have stopped this practice by simply enforcing Employers not to accept any applicant on Business or Visit visa.

Fateh and your point is? for the record I did not change any passport. I never had any other passport than the one I acquired due to my birth right.com!

Milky_BarKid, you a westener???

I heard you are a Pakistani, a proud pakistani!!! (changing passport changes heart too???)

Business Meeting and Networking I'd say!

s-isale, Rumour has it that we westeners are so good that we even refrain from having a GF/BF here coz its illegal..:) lol

MBK, the westerners over here dont do any mistakes ;)

Yes Tinkerbell, Most of the people who use these means are the ones who can not obtain visa on arrival. They could be from African countries or from Asian Countries or even Eastern European countries!

The ones who can obtain Visa on arrival do not face such great issues. I know a number of Western Consultants who will bring in Staff from Western countries and have them work here and just keep them here via the notorious Visa Run. Lets look at ourself before pointing fingers at others.

Tinker, you are right. How many occassional workers do we have in country on their own, who sponsors these people just to be able to do their thing?

A word of caution for those hiring these folks (nothing against them!) but if by chance any of them steals anything from you, the minute you file a case against them at the police you will end up getting yourself into trouble for hiring someone who is not under your sponsorship.

Rules are not discovered by thieves, these illegal activists do not prompt the govt to take any required actions, the govt is quite capable on it's accord. That said, discussing illegal activities on a public forum makes the forum look kind of shady , and giving them answers do give pointers to the lawmakers about the loopholes in the existing laws, whether and how they act on it another matter .On the other hand completely useless questions like "How to skip punishment when caught in an illicit relation ship" need to be axed by the MODS, but some desperate plea for help by a poor soul caught up in a messy visa situation need to be answered, In general the MODS just need to exercise humane discretion in judging the requirement of an ‘illegal’ thread, and cannot come up with a “One –rule –fits –all” motto.

illegal and sick people know one another!

then I must have misunderstood your post.

I was in support of you but adding another angle - so can't quite see where you are now coming from :-)

well cabbage, as you can see the Mods have noticed...so all is good. Plus, the points you menttion do not quite hit the target IMHO. If you read the thread, my posts on it, you can see that. :)

How naive are you then.

Qatar does not intentionally allow people here that are illegal but it is very easy for some people to get false documents that look superb.

Getting back to the OP - does QL allow them to ask for advice on their supposed illegal activity?

I presume half the time these are trolls and then you may have a few that are daft enough to ask the question. Does QL know the difference and does it care?

But really - if you have good qualifications and you know you are true - why would it concern you if some people are not legal?

It does not affect the legal ones at all - Qatar can be duped - and is - they handle that - then there are some that 'lie' but they are fit for purpose, so they are accepted.

Qatar is a mix of people - those that tell the truth and those that bend the truth and a dubious bunch.

If those people that are dubious can get in and earn some money for a while - who are we to say that is wrong?

They don’t ruin anything at all. The honest ones are always going to get in – the liars will be found out and the ‘dubious ones’ who serve a purpose will survive.

I suggest we all mind our own business and leave Qatar and QL to do what they think is best.

The NOC or Visa issues are not the fault of 'liars' this is the fault of some people coming over here accepting a package and then finding out it's not enough and try to leave.

Greedy people ruin Qatar not desperate people.

stealth, exactly my point.

generally the ones who complain the most are those who have got the jobs through illegal means. So many regulations that have come up in this country is due to the illegal actions of a few expatriates.

africana, please read my post again. What you said makes no sense at all. I have claimed NONE of the things you are accusing me of.

I'm not. I'm just expressing myself

Nope I have seen lozz of u n still r there with me but thats why I said good to see

fal, there are more like me than you think. You might be keeping with the wrong company if you have not realized that yet.

i am happy people like u still exists :P

Sure :)

Understood my dear, I guess we can further discuss during our upcoming gathering ;-)

Hmmmm

Yes EL...I am very fond of MODS.

Mike, it is not important at all, at least not to me. It just came to my attention, and I thought I'd mention it.

See, I have friends that are affected by those people's illegal actions, and we discussed it, so I thought we could talk about here.

In general, it just amuses me that people make more effort to find justifications to do wrong and fail than finding ways to do right and succeed.

kabayan 1, that may seem so to you, but we all have our cross to carry. It is simply our own decision, despite circumstances,to do right or wrong. Nobody and nothing but yourself is responsible for what you do.

nomerci, I would not give much importance to all this - I really understand your point and I agree but we Venezuelans usually say "set an example, start from home"

You are getting the best rate of your basket, then why you are still crying, just make it better and get moderate life, instead of fingering in every corner.

Harsh isnt oow!

Who's post?

and THAT post, kabayan1, shows exactly the mindset and what is wrong with it...in general.

Thank you for confirming.

Yeah yeah, just live and let live , its not your kingdom to run as you like, more over this is a part of every society , good and bad both exists, crying and wasting time for just getting votes! Ok appreciatable, just let it go, who will care the partying in open air in bay areas ? Thank God that you are legal and you got job, and ok you are not one of them and use condoms for safety.

See, what really bothers me is NOT what happens to those who ,due to their illegal activities, get themselves in trouble, couldn't care less, actually.

What DOES bother me is that they f c u k it up for all others.

I am wondering, where are those asking for and giving advise on those above mentioned illegal activities? Usually, on those threads, if criticized, they defend themselves and each other to the bitter end.

Where are they now?

I'm next.

Next

will only agree with meself

thank you

next

:D

on this illegal visa thing.

And Cabbage, there is no justification whatsoever about doing an illegal thing. Poverty is not an excuse because it will open a floodway of illegal activities if this is tolerated.

That is why I was very hard in opposing this activity because I understand fully our country situation and illegal use of business visa is not a way to feed your family!

Oracle..

Are you so fond of the MODS?

Don't criticize the MODS.

Cabbage--they are asking how to circumvent the visa laws. That, as I am sure you aware, is asking for the support of an illegal activity. If you are not sure, next time you enter the country, remove the visa from your passport and insert one of your own design and see what happens.

I completely agree with no merci.

africana, why so emnotional?

please know ur job and eat what is in front of you.

are u telling us that u care about Qatar more that Qatar government or Qataris?

are u telling us that there is no rule of law in this country or what?

are u telling us that u are prefect and other people are sick?

how many people did u examine to know that they were sick?... all people here undergo through medical check up when they come to Qatar..

so u are telling us that Qatar doctors are not qualified to identify sicknesses or what?

please tell us people who are sick and the law breaker

you should be arrested by police to show a proof of ur claim

I saw on the top another comment of the other user hours back...Now it's replaced by the moderator’s comment :D

As I said before - I understand where you are coming from, I really do!

The thing is - a lot of people who work long hard shifts here are employed 'illegally'.

They know when they come here they are going to be illegal and the people that employ them know this too.

Both are prepared to take a risk- these men/women employed are here to earn money to feed themselves and their family. The ones that employ them - are greedy and make money out of them. Not really a mutual or dignified contract but it 'works'.

If my kids were starving and needed an education - I would without doubt lie/fake/kiss a** to get a job and if QL allows it and allows these men/women to ask about circumventing those laws or rules – excellent news.

Just like anybody coming to Europe knows how to apply for and get benefits. They go on forums created by ‘others’ in order to help their fellow countrymen.

To me - QL is right to allow this - if a man or a woman gets even one year’s work here and gets a lot of money and feeds a family - to me QL is being charitable and has a clear understanding of the complexities.

Qatar laws are hard to understand and we all know that even when we keep to them - we do not have any rights really.

So break them and be damned and feed your family.

Good for QL I say :-)

corcaoich, you are confused about WHY you are in qatar in the first place. Just put it into your mind, that Qatar is NOT interested in YOUR career. You are NOT brought here to develope your career. You are hired by the certain company on the certain position for the certain (limited!) period of time.

Qatar is expecting you to perform the follow steps:

1. to come to Qatar on the salary and position that YOU HAVE AGREED about. (nobody enslaves you or forces you to come to Qatar against your goodwill)

2. to complete your Contract (like with any other business agreement in the world, once you have signed it, you are obligated to follow it!)

3. And then to LEAVE.

This is a clear concept of your contractual employment in Qatar. If you want to develop your career, stay home.

Your unemployment back home isn't an excuse for violating rules of State of Qatar. If some company is interested in hiring you, they will contact you and upon negotiating and accepting by both parties of your employment conditions, will bring you to qatar LEGALLY.

As for "brutes", ther are two ways. (1) If the Employment contract is clearly violated by the sponsor, there are legal means for resolving the issues. (2) If you simply didn't like you job or no longer is satisfied with the salary (which you apparently agreed with), simply quit and leave.

NOTHING can justify your illegal or semi-legal activities.

Community guidelines #13

Do not post messages which support or condone any illegal activities, such as drug use, piracy or warez.

Not a lot of ambiguity here.

Read more: http://www.qatarliving.com/node/1867534#comment-1892770#ixzz1OFV0Az5k

There is - unless warez is asking about getting a job here 'outside' the law;-/

And about disease, sure, disease is everywhere, and anybody can bring it in. Therefore should we not try to avoid doing that as much as possible instead of circumventing the law and coming here sick?

cabbage, what I am talking about is not about people applying for jobs...it is people coming here on purchased "business visas" to "find'a job. Both actions are 100% illegal.

Not only is this illegal, it also leaves them open to all kinds of misfortune and abuse...which, as we all know, happens all the time.

The consequence is that the authorities, here and in other countries, severely tighten the rules. A. because those who did wrong in the first place start whining and crying about all those bad things happening to them B. those who do right, have a uneccessarily hard time achieving their goals.

Now, I am not talking about the right or wrong about Qatar's rules, sponsors etc. Those things are simply a given, and no matter if we like it or not, are for now here to stay.

At least we can avoid, by following the rules, to make things worse.

that's all I am saying.

And QL should not be sounding board for people giving illegal advise....IF people want to continue doing this, which they obviously will, at least do it somewhere else.

Community guidelines #13

Do not post messages which support or condone any illegal activities, such as drug use, piracy or warez.

Not a lot of ambiguity here.

I see what you are saying and it is a good point to raise.

However, these people that postn or answer are not breaking QL guidelines(I think).

They MAY try to break Qatari laws but that is another forum.

Should QL stop this kind of post?

For me - NO.

If somebody is so poor and desperate to apply for a job in a country like this and take their chances - fair play to them.

Life must be truly dreadful at home for them to take the risk and if they have the guts to do that - give them a job. Another forum topic could be *Treat them like Human Beings* when they get here.

As for the spread of infection - we have a very good vaccination programme in the West and we do tend to avoid over here some of the illnesses that MAY be brought here by these workers.

Virulent strain of E-Coli in Europe anybody?

Can you see my point of view?

Does the law state that an unmarried, unrelated man and woman are not allowed to live together, or is the the illicit relations acts that are illegal? Just a point of clarification. I don't know the answer.

corcaoich, that still does not justify breaking the law.

As in two wrongs don't make a right.

See, the problem with all this is that those actions have devastating consequences more often that not.

Plus, as I said above, it makes life more difficult than it already is for those going about it the right way.

happygolucky, completely agree!

Two unrelated persons (mostly a man and a woman) living under the same roof is also illegal so to say, but how often have they been advised to look at the right areas to stay or do it secretly and avoid being noticed by the neighbors labeling them as nosy neighbors. I remember some guy who banged two females making so much noise in the act that the neighbors did complain and he was very openly advised to either deny the incident completely or ask some of his girl friends to come to his rescue saying they were at his place alongwith other friends having a party and no banging business was carried out. Guess this kind of activity can be hidden or circumvented or completely avoided from the eyes of the authorities whereas landing a job through illegal visa etc can still be checked at any stage and action taken.

And NO, I am definitely not saying either is right, but if one is considered as wrong the other should be looked at with same scorn IMO.

please be aware that natural justice is a concept inherent in all of us but acted on differently in different societies. People in Qatar are totally dependent on their sponsor, if he does not agree with you, out you go!

Now most Qatari sponsors are not brutes, some are, the people who suffer from these brutes are understandably aggrieved and will seek other ways to carry on as they wish. Others are unfairly denied opportunities to develop their careers. Can you please understand why they seek an alternative? And usually find someone to help them, at a price!

The other thing is you don't allow the buying/selling of animals - GREAT but as NonMerci stated this rule is also being flouted by advertising for 'cat marriage' etc ie breeding.

People ask for illegal visas etc ie businees visas when they have no business here.

Please help the community to be better.

Such posts are clearly in violation of QL guidelines and they are promoting activities that are illegal in Qatar.

I am surprised the mods don't delete them out of hand, just as they do advertisers in the forums.

[Noted.Thanks!]