Fears of dollar collapse as Saudis take fright

So the torah is only a part of the teachings....in my ignorance I thought it was the whole book (like say the bible or the quoran)...and so only ever asked about the torah...and all the librarians I asked said that they did not even know why they didn't have it.

Thanks for the link though....I guess I better do some web surfing on it when I get the time.

Oh an my apologies to the OP for thread jacking =(

Stay safe all.

Perfection does not exist. The question therefore, is: what level of imperfection are we willing to settle for?

I found this so interesting I did a bit of research myself. As Joe was saying the Torah is first part of the Old Testament, also called Pentateuch. Torah means 'the Law'. I took the following from:

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Old_Testament

It's very informative. I'm wondering if Libraries have copies of The Old Testament - I'm sure they would have since the books in it are often referred to.

"Pentateuch

The first part of the Old Testament is called the Pentateuch which means the five books. It is also called the Torah, which means the Law. These books are also called the Books of Moses. They include:

Genesis

Exodus

Leviticus

Numbers

Deuteronomy

The events described in these books, from the calling of Abraham to the death of Moses, probably took place sometime in the second millennium before Christ (2000-1200 BC).

Although scholars believe that the Law was not written by the personal hand of Moses, and that the books show evidence of being the result of a number of oral and written traditions and time periods, the Church connects the Law with Moses, the great man of God to whom "the Lord used to speak ... face to face, as a man speaks to his friend" (Exodus 33:11)".

I am seriously not a scholar of Judaism and my reading of it is limited to exerpts and quotes, so that is why i'm questioning the authenticity of what I read (is it true or propaganda?).

As for the Jewish community in Montreal...they are quite sizeable...and thought certain muslims may not like the unfaithful to read their holy book, they cannot stop libraries from carrying them....I just don't know why they never have the torah (and I checked 3 libraries in Mtl myself)...it really makes me wonder if it's biased towards that particular faith...or is there something we are not supposed to see? I mean if the quotes are true, then that would violate the statues about racist discrimination and propegation of hate literature surely!

As for being the favored people, and the only ones going to heaven....i'm affraid ALL religions do that....though it is arrogant to some degree its not really racist if you do not harm others (and unfortunately we all know how many wars are fought in religion's name!)...no, I meant specifically the teachings of superiority of one group over another.

I HAVE read both the bible and the quoran (though granted it was awhile ago)....and I certainly don't remember any passages espousing such things....but I have read quotes from the torah that said it is alright to enslave your neighbours because they are inferior....which makes me even more curious about the authenticity of such passages!

As for Zionism being a political belief....does that mean if the "religious text" commands you to follow this doctrine, and if you cease being jewish the minute you no longer "believe" the text, that ALL Jews (by definition of judaism being a belief and not a dna code) are Zionists (though I can understand your point about bot all Zionists being jews)?

Just an interesting question to ponder.

And Lastly, I could not agree with you more about the need to seperate state and religion...let each believe what they want....but ALL people should have equal rights!

Thanks for the lively and interesting discussion...and I look for forward to more input from you (if you are so inclined) and others =)

Stay safe all.

Perfection does not exist. The question therefore, is: what level of imperfection are we willing to settle for?

Some interesting points.

Firstly, it sounds like you're more familiar with the Torah than me. Out of interest, what incident do you mean when God stopped the sun for seven days?

Secondly, you're point about the Torah: I have no idea. I've never tried to take the Torah out from a library in England because its already there in the Old Testament.

Is it not there because there aren't many Jews in Montreal and no one's thought to include it? Because there is an institutional bias against the Jewish religion? Or because Jewish customs themselves don't want their holy book in the hands of Gentiles? I know for example some Muslims don't want me getting my grubby, godless hands on a copy of the Holy Quran.

As I understand it:

Judaism: as you said, a religion based on the Torah.

Zionism: a political movement which created and continues to promote the existence of a so-called Jewish state.

Whatever the teachings of their most respected texts, I think within any religion (or other belief system) you will find those who hold that their beliefs make them superior to others. From what I know the Torah, like a lot of religious texts, can be interpreted to mean the superiority of its followers (Deuteronomy 14:2: "For thou art a holy people unto the Lord thy God, and the Lord hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth,”) although the opposite is also true of the book: Amos in particular as I understand it talks about the Family of Israel getting no privileges from God and punished for their sins with equally ruthless vigour.

Some of the people who follow the holy book of my homeland (the New Testament) believe that only Christians can go to heaven (amongst others, John 14:6 "no one can come to the Father except through me"). Others believe anyone can get in. The Second Vatican Ecumenical Council said: “The non-Christian may not be blamed for his ignorance of Christ and his Church; salvation is open to him also, if he seeks God sincerely and if he follows the commands of his conscience, for through this means the Holy Ghost acts upon all men; this divine action is not confined within the limited boundaries of the visible Church." Perhaps one of our Muslim friends could provide similar examples from their own religion (or not, as the case may be).

Even if a religious belief in the earthly or spiritual superiority of a particular people seems nonsensical to non-believers, such beliefs are tolerable so long as they don’t produce actions which discriminate against the ‘faithless’. You simply can’t (and shouldn’t) control what people believe in.

BUT, inevitably in my opinion, creating a state who’s very existence is based on the protection of one religion, nation or group above others leads to discrimination of others within the area that it governs or outside it. Israel is not the first incarnation of such an idea and it’s not the only one in existence. But when this happens, we have a responsibility to stand up to the oppression that is created and the ideas behind it.

I’m going to stop because there’s football on and I think that’s probably enough although I’ve not covered half of what I wanted to.

And for my next post: mankind’s post-existentialist dilemma in four easy to consume paragraphs (joke).

Joe Williams

[email protected]

http://earsopen.blogspot.com/

But for those not versed in Judaism's teachings, can you further elaborate on the difference between Judaism and Zionism Please?

As far as I know Judaism is a belief and not a DNA code, so if you believe in the torah you are jewish...if not, then even if your name is goldstein you are NOT. Now having said that, what does the torah teach?

I find it facinating that any public library in Montreal you can find the bible and the koran, and almost any other religious book you want....except: (you guessed it) the torah! Why is that? i've often wondered.

IF the torah itself is racist....and speaks of how not only are jews the favored people (lets face it...ALL realigions teach this in some form or another)....but that others are subhuman, and it is the divinely ordained right of jews to enslave these "others" (case in point...when god stopped the sun for seven days so that his chosen people could keep slaughtering their enemies....since hey can't do it on the sabbath)...then you have to wonder...is Judaism racist?

I'm no expert...and again I have not read ALL of the torah....so maybe someone can enlighten us or point out if what I have read is propaganda and lies...but what I have read is frightening!

Yes it is more politically correct to differentiate between jews and zionist....but if all jews work toward the political ends of "greater Israel"...and not just pratcise a spiritual religion, but follow racist "teachings" of their holy book...then you really have to wonder what the difference is between Judaism, and Zionism.

I swear i'm not trying to be a hate mongerer...I genuinely do not know the difference between the two....and would love it if someone could teach me!

Stay safe all.

Perfection does not exist. The question therefore, is: what level of imperfection are we willing to settle for?

"It is in the Zionist interest that the term Zionism is to be used interchangeably with Jews and Judaism.."

Absolutely right. The main reason we shouldn't, of course, is because it isn't true. But not playing into the hands of Zionists should be an extra incentive.

Can you blame people for being mixed up? Is it possible to criticise Palestinians for resenting Jews when they return to their houses after occupation by the IDF and find the Star of David painted on their front doors? Blame isn't the question. Within the pro-Palestinian movement we should be ensuring that NONE of us confuse the two terms because it weakens all of our arguments to do so.

The term 'Zionist Jew' is also unnecessary. Some of history’s most important Zionists have been gentiles (eg Balfour, Bush, Stalin). If we were discussing the spiritual significance of Jesus Christ then religion would be relevant. But Zionism is a political belief and their religion is irrelevant.

Joe Williams

[email protected]

http://earsopen.blogspot.com/

that is why i would prefer to use the term 'zionist jews'... Unfortunately,the zionist controlled mainstream media always played up this issue: when you criticize Israel, you're anti-semitic, when you criticize zionism, you're anti-semitic. So how can we blame people for being racist on the jews/zionism mixed up? Judaism and Jewry has long been hijacked by the zionist.

It is in the zionist interest that the term Zionism is to be used interchangeably with Jews and Judaism..

But anyway, I digress.

Someone up there said something about China's role in destabilising the dollar. Have a butcher's at this. From the British Daily Telegraph, explaining the hold over the US economy that China now possesses.

USA: please return to the boat house. Your time is up.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2007/08/07/bcnchina107a.xml

Joe Williams

[email protected]

This point relates to conversations elsewhere as well but particularly about some people's frankly racist use of the terms ‘Zionist’ and ‘Jew’ interchangeably.

Judaism and Zionism are not the same thing. Personally, I hate Nazism but I don't hate Germans. I hated apartheid but I don't hate white people (obviously). I have the Klan but I don't hate Christians. Similarly, I hate Zionism but I don't hate Jews.

It's perfectly legitimate to hate Zionism and recognise the tremendously powerful influence that Israel exerts over US and British foreign policy. This does not mean in anyway that you are (necessarily) anti-Semitic: Zionism is by default a racist ideology, about creating a state that protects the interests of one race (as it sees Judaism, although I believe you can only really define Judaism as a religion) above all others.

On the other hand: you can't go around talking about 'Jewish conspiracies' and the Protocols of Zion and all that tired, old racist s**t just because some people are oppressing Palestine (and the Arab world in general) in the name of Judaism or the Jewish people. Unless you’re a racist of course, but I've met plenty of people out here in Doha that are happy to accept they ARE racists: they genuinely believe that Jewish people are pre-inclined to evil. But if you believe that, you're no better than the Zionists frankly.

In short: they can't label the pro-Palestine lobby as anti-Semitic, even those parts of it that don't believe in the existence of Israel. But if you don't make the differentiation between Zionism and Judaism, your analysis is as bigoted as the Zionists themselves.

Incidentally, technically being 'anti-Semitic' also means being racist towards Arabs.

Be lucky.

Joe.

Joe Williams

[email protected]

America catches a cold the world sneezes is it gng to be true?

Aha Lets see buddies What has the Greenspan and Buffet got this time?

Stray I will stop being sarcastic. The same people who are so anti-government stepping in, people should be independent have caused the whole mess in America. They have helped the corporations i.e. themselves and friends. Greenspan writes a book after helping to screw everything up saying it was the Administrations fault. Hello wasn't he the FED Chair.

Now they are bailing out the banks with the interest rate cut while demonising the Americans who got screwed by the banks,mortgage companies, and insurance companies. I wish Americans would stop blaming Al Qaeda, and terrorist and start blaming our government who has done more damage in the last eight years than any terrorist organization could do in the same amount of time. All while taking away rights of their own citizens in the name of making things safer. OK sarcasm my unopened dollar bottled water can be used to blow up a plane but the triple price bottled water on the other side of your security check is safe. I feel so much safer with more of my tax dollars and after tax dollars going into your pocket instead of mine. OK End of Sarcasm.

If they unpeg from the dollar you have a few choices: Ask to change salary to local currency, stay and take the pay cut, ask for a raise, or leave. What difference is it that the Arab governments use the zionist sometimes to confuse their people as our governments are using terrorist to confuse us while steadily making things worse for us? I could care less about a NeoCon, Zionist, Liberal,Monarch or whatever if you are abusing the people you who elected you or you are supposed to be leading you are wrong. So plain and simple blame ourselves not anyone else for electing our current government and then re electing them out of fear instead of clear thinking. Funny labels Democrat, Republican, Neocon Liberal how about simply being a Human Being.

Act your age not your shoe size

look at the list of top neocons behind the iraq war

http://www.csmonitor.com/specials/neocon/index.html?s=spusa

aren't they a bunch of lovely zionist jews playing empire building at the expense of american and arab lives? i bet none of their childrens, relatives, or grandmothers are in Iraq now fighting for democracy and 'humanity'..

or is it a coincidence that a pacifist france turned warmongering overnight when a zionist french-jew was elected as president? and that warmongering Kouchner also happens to be of jew descendant.. i bet he's a zionist..

so what excuse can you guys come with, other than calling others names?

back to the original topic... of course it's fun to bash america, since it's about declining dollar.. we can't blame the chinese for this can't we?

i am paid over dollar!!!!! it sucks. if it continues it wont be any different working back in my country:)

If they unpegged would they bind their currency to something else or would they just leave it floating? Considering that a GCC currency sounds unlikely to happen at this stage I wonder what would they do? What did they do in Kuwait, anyone knows?

Oh I forgot they aren't idiots we are. I'm laughing straight to the bank. Haha ha ha..... I guess the expats/Mexicans will have to start leaving. Why stay here if the pesos is worth the same or more as the dollar.

Act your age not your shoe size

The plot is real. It is just we had some stupid people leading it :-). You go to war to stimulate the economy but you failed to realize that all your manufacturing companies and jobs have moved overseas. "Global Economics" Uniforms made in China, Parachutes made in Mexico. The remaining jobs Americans are too high class to do. The Mexicans and Chinese are making all the money and sending it home except for the amount spent on beer.

Really lets laugh at the whole situation and blow it off with everyone hates us and are just jealous because God has blessed America. The home of the free and the home of the brave. The same way the Arabs blame everything on the Zionist. We are in Iraq because of Bin Ladens? We caused our own problems by being shell shocked and getting duped by some pure idiots.

Act your age not your shoe size

It's all a plot!!! Some people have read one too many Dan Brown novels than are good for them.

Zionist, Illuminati and World Capitalism plots are lame and not the real conspiracies - its the lizards I tell you!!!! :)))))

Just check for yourself, sounds much more plausible. :D

I don't go to mythical places with strange men.

-- Douglas Adams, The Long Dark Tea-Time of the Soul.

I always love to see people start one conversation and then suddenly begin bashing the United States by the end of it....

Don't forget to mention how the Zionists have staged all of this and how our support for Israel is one of the reasons why our regime is crumbling. I'm surprised nobody has mentioned how the Twin Towers weren't destroyed by muslim radicals, but rather an inside job by the US Government who wants to rule the world!

when the american start dropping bomb on Riyadh, it's not because of WMD bs or something like that..

it would be much better if the US goes into a panic like everyone else seems to want to because there is one article in the paper.

in yahoo, msnbc, cnn, google frontpage.. of course the american are more obsessed with OJ, britney and Paris..

Thats what if feels like. If Saudi unpegs, you wonder what will happen to the world economy. I saw a program on Al Jazeera English a while back about the Green Currency and how it is doomed, it seems like its getting closer.

Qatar Living. Where do you live?

just wait and watch. Maybe the whole global economy could go into a tailspin.

Good news for those paid in local (riyal)currency, as at the present time (ie with oil at $80+ / barrel, the riyal, if unpegged, would strengthen against most currencies, incuding the mighty greenback

This is bad for all expats.. as we are gonna be earnin lesser in our home countries!!

I guess time to ask our bosses for salary hikes :-)

ARMY

"Work like you don't need the money, Love like you've never been hurt, and dance like you do when nobody's watching "!

The dollar has a fixed rate here in most of the GCC states because of the oil. The English Pound has risen considerably and so has the Euro over last two years.

The GCC currency will most probably never happen because some states already pulled out of the discussions - this was recently mentioned in the Gulf Times.

Riyal getting weaker ... we had like over 20 percents pay cut since we arrived here 6 yrs ago.

there is no need to be worried about it coz this will have to happen .Gulf countries are launching their own mutual currency for which saudia arab has to refuse to such policy

We are rich in riyals, poor in pounds. We are losing money we send home each month the dollar rises. Does this mean that the dollar will fall against the pound?