Is a female 1/2 a male?

How do you compare an apple to an orange. Which is half the other? (actually I prefer Mangoes, but are not worth anything, it is always the apples and oranges)

All proofs indicate they are both fruit.

We are looking at thousands of years of History and how mentalities have evolved. It was not until recently that women were allowed to Vote in US or UK.

You can only work on trying to improve yourself. The more you lecture others, the less they will listen to you and the more anger you will incite.

[quote:] "All we can do is discuss it respectfully."

Definitely.

Thankyou for those largely unreferenced articles. To understand what I'm trying to say, you have to have an understanding of what an actual experiment paper reads like. They publish the exact results they got from the test, and they publish all the comparative statistical tests they subjected the results to. If they find a difference between the two, then they suggest how the results relate and don't relate to similar studies, and then they decribe reasons why their own study was flawed.

What less scientifically minded people do then, is find one paragraph of what is usually a several thousand word analysis, and they sensationalize it. They ignore all the experimenters reasons why the results may be skewed, they ignore all the contradicting studies that the experimenter would have referred to in the very same paper, and they run with it.

You say that you were referring to abilities that are affected by physical differences in the brain. These abilities ARE a psychological matter. Not only can we not prove differences in ability exist, we will never be able to prove that if there are differences in ability, that they are related to any physical differences in the brain. Even in the articles you gave links to, which would hold absolutely no credibility in the science world, use words "suggest", "may result", "typically", "usually", "generally", "contributes", "tend to" "can be". None of these words denote proof. Because proof can simply never be found. Patterns of behaviour, are simply that that, patterns. It does not mean the pattern is always followed, and it does mean that the pattern is not reversible. And it gives NO causation for the pattern, only correlation.

There you go you've said it:

We are equal.

Whatever follows is a personal conviction that has nothing to do with science, nor can it justify certain conditions certain females are living in as it is a chosen or obligatory 'way of life'. The only thing that can be said is that this is your perception of reality, which of course conflicts with people that are not used to such conditions.

All we can do is discuss it respectfully.

We're equal but not the same. General rules consider average conditions but individual exceptions are respected.

In the era of Caliph Omar, who ruled for 11 years only 2 years after the Prophet's death, appointed a woman as a responsible for souq, which could be equivalent to a minister of commerce.

QatariLady,

Even though science is an important aspect we do not always have to rely on it. Sometimes it requires some common sense to 'see' what is right and what is wrong.

You wish to distinct between male and female, no problem. I however do not see the need as I respect females to be my equal, and god knows I have met many that have capabilities that I could only dream of.

That, dear QL, is called honesty.

If I would be religious I, as a male, would honor the creation of god called female, and not make her an invisible second grade being. I refuse to believe that this has ever been gods intention.

[quote:] "When we study humans, we generally find patterns of behaviour. It is these patterns that allows us to formulate ideas about the human mind and human behaviour. But none of these ideas are ever proven or disproven."

This describes studies performed on PERSONAL BEHAVIOUR which can be affected by attitudes while my argument focuses on the ABILITIES that are affected by the PHYSICAL difference found on the anatomy of male and female brains.

Here are more links if you doubt the validity of the article on Medical Education Online:

http://www.bio-medicine.org/medicine-news/Genetic-differences-found-between-Male-and-Female-brains-2311-1/

http://www.webmd.com/balance/features/how-male-female-brains-differ

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/tech/nextnews/archive/next050121.htm

http://www.livescience.com/health/050120_brain_sex.html

Studies on mathematical ability are not tests on the anatomy of the brain. So yes, it is a psychological study.

You're talking about psychological studies. The brain is not a psychological trait but a physical organ.

Laterz dear..

When we study humans, we generally find patterns of behaviour. It is these patterns that allows us to formulate ideas about the human mind and human behaviour. But none of these ideas are ever proven or disproven. The best we can do when it comes to humans is find evidence "for" or "against", but nothing is ever cut and dry. And why do we study it? People study it for the love of studying it. It's like arguing philosophy. You will never get any definitive answers, but they do it for the love of postulating theories.

Psychology is considered one of the social sciences, and is usually distinct from "pure" science. Unlike pure science, who's results are reproducible exactly with every single time the test is conducted, social science will rarely get the same result even once.

Muslimsa aren't sheep who follow blindly.. the Quran encourages independent thinking even if AFTER obeying. This is what we do. Normally ppl understand THEN follow.. When it comes to the Quran we follow THEN analyse afterwards.. This is true belief with intellectual respect..

QatariLady masha allah you are fighting a loosing battle with the atheists .

For a Muslim all this is not a matter of explaining it , it's a degree from the wisdom of Allah and that is sufficient for us allhamdulillah

Al-Ahzab - 33:36

it is not for a believer, man or woman, when Allâh and His Messenger have decreed a matter that they should have any option in their decision. And whoever disobeys Allâh and His Messenger, he has indeed strayed in a plain error. (Al-Ahzab 33:36)

Ah-uh!.. Then that means NOTHING in science and studies is real. Then why do ppl study? A waste of time, money and energy? Shall we go back to basics and question and reinvent everything?

lol QL. Did you not see my comments on your link from "Medical Education Online"? Did you not see the author of it?

I swear you don't actually think about the things I say. even if there were a test, and the boys scored higher. It does not necessarily mean that boys are better at maths. There is no way to control all factors. There are hundreds of reasons why males may be scoring higher, and none of them biological. And like I have said repeatedly, there are studies that show the opposite. Things are only deemed proven, if test after test after test, repeated by any scientist, anywhere, can get the exact same results. You can't do that with humans, you especially can't deem it to be so when it involves humans, and half the time they get results that show the opposite.

You're trying to tell me that they're not in equal proportion but it's hypothetical. Studies performed on REAL people showed an important difference in abilities. Did you read what I wrote about Medical Education Online?

Besides when hiring, choice is made based on individuals not on averaging out..

QatariLady,

Please allow me my outbursts of immature wit.

I need this to get by :-P

After all, I am a male, I will never grow up (fully).

QatariLady,

The point of this discussion is whether males and females are equal. Examples given may lead to a focus on a single aspect, so we need to go back to a broader perspective.

You have a company:

500 people do a test for a job, there are 10 vacancies. 400 men and 100 women participate. The top 10 scores from are 5 females and 5 males. The worst 100 scores are by 40 females and 60 males.

Who will you hire for the 10 vacancies?

Yep you have a p****.. Now you need a brain :)

Like I said,

And this will be in the history books, I just have to die a little first.

I HAVE A PENIS THEREFORE I AM!!!

It's not that I think they are. I'm not a scientist but I learned that from specialists.

I have a degree in Education and learned that in early child education specialists found that girls excel in literacy and communication while boys excel in maths. Plus scroll up or back and check the scientific quotation and link I cited.

QL, let me ask you something. Why do you think men are better at maths?

I know how the average is measured I'm good at math yet I don't find it demeaning to say that on average men score higher that's why their testimony will be more precise.

Yes some men aren't good at math that's way to testify Allah said what means: take the testimony of TWO men (not only one) among the men that you find SATISFACTORY (not just ANY men) or one man and 2 women.

I don't think QL quite understands what we're saying.

QL, lets say then, that men are better at maths. 5 women and 5 men take a test. The mens scores out of 10 are, 8, 8, 7, 6, & 5. The womens scores are 7, 6, 6, 5 & 4. Now yes, the men on average did score higher. However, the men are not all better at maths than all the women. In fact, there are 3 women who are better at maths than 1 guy, two of them equal to another guy, and another woman equal to and above 2 guys.

By assuming all men are better at maths than all women, you shoot yourself in the foot by potentially giving credibility to a man that perhaps is not as good as his female counterparts.

Anyway, that being said, like I stated before, there is no conclusive evidence that men are better than women in maths, and there is just as much opposing evidence. If you are not good at maths compared to the males around you, don't assume to think it applies for all females.

Yes I did find it unfair. Which is why I did it anyway. And thank you for implying I'm not average :).

Sadly QatariLady though, the world is not made up of "average" people, its made up of individuals with different stregths and weaknesses, which is why laws shouldnt' discriminate against those people, they should protect them. And generalizing an entire gender is not protecting that gender, it's harming it and the individuals that belong to it.

You insist on mentioning individual cases while this thread and my argument is about average ppl. You said you were told not to lift 25 pounds. Who said that? Did you find it UNFAIR?!

Funiculus

Exactly. When it comes to testimony on financial issues precision is a must not management of the hearing session.

QL, the term "significantly", when it is used in a scientific capacity, means that the likelihood that differences observed are greater than chance. It does not mean there is a considerable difference. And it does not mean that there is necessarily a true difference.

Also the word highly correlates, is also a scientific measure. Correlation does not imply causation.

There are laymans meaning of those words, and there are specific scientific definitions of those words.

Furthermore the project includes in it's title "the brains of men and women are subtly different", which confirms what I said, that the differences are small.

And after all this fabulous knowledge I imparted on you about scientific terminology. I must point out that the article is written by a "princess_ami" in 2006, and was posted on a teacher-student section of a website, and references 6 articles.

At the end of the day all I can say is it's wrong for the say of a male public relations executive (for example) to outweigh the the say of a female accountant in a financial issue, purely because of the benefit of his gender.

Even in the case of two accoutants that judgement should be made on their grades or job position or work, NOT on their gender. THAT is fair.

By nature the male is a hunter/provider and the female caretaker. Absolutely. The animal kingdom reminds us of that, even though not all species comply with this basic law of nature.

Whether you can lift a box or not, irrelevant. You may need 10 males to lift the boxes and one female to 'manage' the distribution of the boxes.

Nope, lets look at it this way. When I did my medical for the military I out ran most of the men, and outlifted most of the men. Last week during a training excercise I was told that I didn't have to lift the 25 pound weight (cause I was a woman) and I did anywany. With no problems, whereas some of the men had problems.

Stop judging yourself and others by the limitations placed on your by your society and religion.

[quote:] " Some women could carry one box on her own that might take two men to carry."

lol Is this She Devil taking supplimentary testosterone?!

Depends on the woman. Some women could carry one box on her own that might take two men to carry. You can't paint everyone with the same brush.

If it takes one man to lift a certain object that takes two women to lift. Is this in any way demeaning to the woman? Or is it merely acknowledging "physical" limitation? The brain is a physical organ.

This of course doesn't mean that men are smarter.. They're only d-i-f-f-e-r-e-n-t!

QatariLady,

With all do respect, if you fully surrender to what a book dictates. Then there is no you, your life would be completely empty and meaningless as you would have no own identity, yet only one that has been molded by the individuals that have given you an interpretation of 'what should be'

Adam & Eve were created naked, so I see no good reason for you to cover yourself up.

God created both males and females with exactly the same features such as 'free will' a conscience, brains and capabilities. He created Eve to compliment Adam, to reproduce, thus to complete Adam. In every other sense they were equal. What has happened throughout history that now all of a sudden HUMANS decided that females are half the worth of a male?

No, just worth half of a mans. Even if she's better at maths then a man. Makes a lot of sense. :P

[quote MissX:] "The biological differences between males and females brains are actually so small."

According to Medical Education Online:

"Inferior parietal lobule (IPL): it is a brain region in the cortex, which is significantly larger in men than in women.[...]So, it seems that IPL's size correlates highly with mental mathematical abilities.

http://www.medicaleducationonline.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=46&Itemid=69"

Note the use of "highly" and "significantly"!

[quote Gypsy:] "You can't say 90% of people aren't in wheelchairs so therefore we shouldn't build wheelchair ramps."

In the same way women are not excluded from testimony in financial matters nor disqualified. Abilities in each gender is known to Allah and that's why we don't question the Quran or object to the verdicts in it.

No MissX, but thank you for mentioning that, as that, or at least the state of mind similar to sedated, is actually 'the end-purpose' of the game.

I did not know you also played! Coolness!

Is it still called doctor when the patient is sedated? :P

I like to play 'doctor' as part of melancholic youth sentiments.

Of course, now it is an adult version.

:-P

Yeah I actually hate scrabble. Pretty good at Boggle though.

MissX, is that what they do 'down under'? Damn...

oh yes,

Scrabble... sucks!! I am an Upwords addict.

They played scrabble. Gypsy won.

None your bizzzznesss. :P

Nope that's not the case at all. My boyfriend & I went to dinner and a couple drinks at bubbles then home to bed.

The biological differences between males and females brains are actually so small, to say a man is better at maths than a female, is a ridiculous statement. If there are tests, then all those tests show, is that a man has the POTENTIAL to be better at maths. However, there is no study that definitively proves that, and there are just as many studies that discredit it. You're forgetting the VERY FIRST thing that people take into consideration when making a conclusion about a test. And that is, that there are thousands of uncontrollable factors that contribute to test results.

The point is QL, you would take an inadequate males testimony over a qualified woman's because you assume males are better at maths.

Well thats not what we heard.. People spotted you on Thursday night.. and we heard that you was too wasted to get up on Friday..lol.

Anyway back to the topic.. As for you I would say that you are worth one and half times a man..:)

-----------------

HE WHO DARES WINS

Sorry, found out I had to work the next day and I wasn't feeling well. :( told Da I owe him his Birthday drink this Thursday.

Exception for you Gypsy.. You is a bit of a ladatte

Yes I was waiting for you on Friday and you did not show up you chicken..cluck cluck..:)

-----------------

HE WHO DARES WINS

Females have the disadvantage of having to poop out kids.

Don't make me punch you in the face the next time I see you UK.

Women are more sophisticated and delicate than Men and have to be treated in that way.

-----------------

HE WHO DARES WINS

I'm not having any problems Khalid. I simply think that anyone can do anything they want if they put their mind to it and that we shouldn't judge people based on their sex.

I would say that some women are much better than men and vice versa.

At the end there will also be things that only women can do and things that only men can do.

It will be go to start writting the main differences between women and men (Let us not speak about the body).

I said rude because of the p**** thing..men aren't p*****s

I agree with regarding the childish behaviour.. In fact why men refuse to see women in prominent positions is becuase they don't respect women enough.. and that's very unfortunate..

Back to the topic.. When yoy say male brain is more PRACTICAL this only confirms what I was saying. Women have more vivid imagination while men are more practical..

Gotta go on

this so conservative topic and so much arguement lead to any change and clear away the differences btwn east and west culture?

No Right??

So buzz off all of you and get some other topics. oh yea Freedom speech right!! GET IT ON _|_

still nothing will change.

No it isn't QatariLady. If a person has proved that they have the inclination to be an accountant then it doesn't matter if they are male or female.

And yes rules are based on exceptions. You can't generalize people. You can't say 90% of people aren't in wheelchairs so therefore we shouldn't build wheelchair ramps. You can't say 85% of the people in a country aren't a particular religion therefore we won't let anyone else worship there's. You can't say men dont' have lady bits therefore they can't be gynecologists. You can't even say murder is murder, because there's different levels, there's crimes of passion, premeditation and accidents. And you most defintely CANNOT say that just because most women aren't good at maths women shouldn't be allowed to do maths.

Almost all laws everywhere are based on exceptions and protecting the rights of those exceptions.

Hmmm, I got no problems with the law stating that in certain circumstances - such as legal testimony or inheritance issues - women have different rights. Laws is laws. But I do have problems when people start extrapolating from these laws to say, like wizz, that therefore women are less accurate witnesses because of "nerves" or to believe that this somehow makes women less adept at mathematical accuracy. When there is inequality people tend to believe there is inferiority and that's a problem.

Mandi

Definitely based on qualifications but all things being equal being a man is an asset..

Remember we're not talking about exceptions as rules aren't made based on exceptions..

Why being rude? Because it is true? I did not judge Islam, I judge the childish behavior.

Men in the west, as well as females, are judged by their education/CV etc. Surely, females in the west also needed to battle for equal rights, and still it is not perfect. Yet, they advanced.

The female brain is 3D the male brain is 2D (according to Allan and Barbara Pease) which results in females being able to multi-task and males to be more practical. Now, this has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO with the position of females to males. Females can be more productive and more organized than males.

You want to talk short-sighted? Males rejecting Female input in government because they FEAR females appearing superior, more intelligent and more capable . THAT is short-sighted.

Next to Sheikha Moza, how many influential females there are here? And why should there not be more?

SILENCE WOMEN! whats all this noise about p3nis and brains...we all know that they dont go well together in the same sentence. :p

Good Fortune always comes knocking at your door...when you are sh*tting in the toilet!! :)

_[]~SMoKE~[]_

Ok, so you would tell your daughter not to bother with her maths homework or not to study, because women are bad at maths anyway.

We're talking about average ppl not scientists..

No QatariLady, UNLIKE you I don't judge a persons ability based on their sex. I would higher the most qualified person.

Maybe that's because to you a man is 6 inches long!

So QatariLady you would tell a female mathmatician or physcist that she can't be a mathmatician or physicist because her brain isn't supposed to work that way?

Again being rude! Are men in the west being measured by how big their p**** is!!

And what has the kuwaiti parliament got to do with what this thread is about? I know.. Again Islam is being judged by short-sighted men..

Do you deny that male and female brains are different? My question is about ..UP ..the brain!

Hey I'm not the one who chooses her accountants based on their genitalia!

That was very rude!

But I'm not surprised.. You live in a world of "imagination".. Custom-made to your imagination..

QatariLady,

I will freely translate what you just stated:

"especially when it seems fair or at least not harmful"

Means, because of our religion and related culture I can not, nor wish to, change the status of females as I agree with being less than a male.

I respect your position and your choice, I guess others will have to do it for you.

The first female in the Kuwaiti parliament, when she spoke the males started whistling and shouting, how Childish and small are the penises of these males?

No it sounds sexist and silly. You shouldn't hire your accountant based on their sex! Having a penis doesn't make someone more qualified to be an accountant it only makes him more qualified to pee standing up.

All of these inheritance/financial laws remind me of the saying "The road to hell is paved with good intentions" while the original intentions may have been good, they're too easily misused and abused.

This is how the rule is justified and the reality does support the idea. Personally as a business owner I prefer to have my financial matters managed by a male accountant. (does it sound silly?)

Funiculus..

I tend to accept what I cannot change especially when it seems fair or at least not harmful.. Not everything in the status quo is bad or can be changed..

Yes QatariLady,

Consequently some females would function much better in key-positions than males.

If I were to be a QatariLady, and have the same personality as I have now, I would be fighting against the status quo. I would dedicate my life for rights for females.

That's only on average QatariLady, there are many women who are excellent at maths. And even those who aren't are able to do the basic maths required to take care of financial transactions.

Not because they're more educated but because of the difference in brain functionalty. This is obvious in Early Child Education. Girls are generally better in communication and litercay while most boys have difficulty in this field but they excel in maths.

lol Victory, this whole thread was based on the inheritance law. Keep up :P

as far as I heard in all cases of witnesses even for moon sighting; one male testimony is equal to 2 women.

Also check the law of inheritence regarding female children (daughters) shares compare to male child (son).

You mean men are given a proper education and are therefore assumed to be better with numbers, as opposed to women.

[quote:] "In Quran for murder case two witness of females are equal to one witness of male."

You get this wrong.. In such cases testimony of one female equals testimony of one male.

The one male to 2 females is applicable to financial transactions only as men are usually better with numbers and finances than women.

OK I got it now. True !

still ,women are in no way worth half the men!

men are the protector of the women , but if the women wants to be her own "boss" no problem.

Well , all that has something to do with having faith and knowing your Lord and so on.

But you are not into that.

So I see your point !

But I feel that Islam has given the balance into the responsibility that men and women have.

Well someone said that taking financial responsibilities away from a woman, and giving them to a man is a kindness.

And I said yes it is a kindness, if the woman doesn't want the financial responsibilities in the first place. Then I went on to explain that a lot of the women who don't want these financial responsibilities do so because they were raised to believe that the responsibilities are not theirs to have. Putting financial responsibilities on to a woman, who has no skills in finance/money, and who was raised to take no interest in it, would not be fun for the woman, and is why many women still accept their lack of responsibilities. But to the rest of us who have knowledge, education, and ambition DO want the financial responsibilities. Most women today are those things I mentioned above, so to make a rule based on what women used to be like, makes it a very dated concept.

Any clearer?

Changing the Holy Book isn't flexibity but it's forgery.. Our religion is flexible.. Hence polygamy is permitted.. Not forced or encouraged but permitted.. Whether to use this right or not depends on your needs and circumstances..

[quote:] "there are societies where men are absolutely useless. Women do both, giving birth and working. Men just sit there and smoke pipes."

Then women here are in misery and perhaps the kids are given very awkward examples! Why are women married to such men? Their personal choice..

MissX I must honestly say I don't understand what you mean by your statement :

Only the people who don't want the responsibilities would see it as only a form of kindness. Most women don't want the responsibilities because they have been brought up to believe they are not theirs to handle. But denying it so much, as to make a rule for it, is suggesting it's not a woman's place. And like I said, is a very dated concept.

sorry you lost me there

My intension is not to offend, but look at reality. Stop looking at one religion and crying about one incident.

Neither Man nor Woman is one relegion or another, but belong to many in the world.

In answering the question open your eyes and look at the impoverished state many women (also lumbered with children) find themselves in.

I do appreciate support to my answer though.

Thanks

lol

You're right there..

Happy Happy..

Thanx for the sweet comment

Laterz guys

I'm glad you've shared this with us on QL, you put it in a very easy and simple way to understand.

I know many people (including some Muslims) who like to mix up cards and then blame it on religion and systems, but never on their own ignorance and lack of research.

Salam

YES

QL, 'symbols in society' is a wide field in sociology. I assume we have a different cultural background. Shouting is like this: SHOUTING.

Noooo, that is meant to portray the level of disbelief. Not shouting.

[ quote:] "Choice??????????????????????????????????????????????"

This meant shouting :)

I did not use a single exclamation mark, QatariLady. Why do you think I might be upset? I am not. The bold was meant to stress the words only. It didn't mean that the words had to be shouted. Lol.

Very well.. But it's not the only option available.. We do it in a different way.. not worse and maybe not better.. just different.. People are content with it.. Why are you upset? :)

QatariLady, I met a girl and asked her to marry me. She said 'yes'. We informed her parents that we're going to get married. I also told my parents that I am going to get married. That's a non-arranged marriage.

What's your defintion of an arranged marriage?

(FYI, MY marriage wasn't an arranged one!)

Choice??????????????????????????????????????????????

Where is the choice in an arranged wedding? (Which is the most common way of arrangements in "your" culture?)

QatariLady, there are societies where men are absolutely useless. Women do both, giving birth and working. Men just sit there and smoke pipes.

You say it, QatariLady: flexibility! But that is the least we would get from a culture which is based on a religion which refuses to change a single word in its holy book!

Physiological roles are non-negotiable and are the base of sociological roles..

Well said MD.

"Some".. Systems aren't built based on exceptions.. That's why flexibility is necessary..

Culture forces men and women into roles.

Some women don't want to marry!

Gender specific roles and expectations are not natural but sociological. Division of labor is an invention not a naturally given fact.

Some women can fight better than some men!

Some men are better mothers than some women!

What's wrong with rules? People aren't perfect.. Without rules the powerful will eat up the weak alive..

Like I said, it's only healthy if you don't want it. Making a rule about it is form of forced cooperation.

I would say it's healthy cooperation

Only the people who don't want the responsibilities would see it as only a form of kindness. Most women don't want the responsibilities because they have been brought up to believe they are not theirs to handle. But denying it so much, as to make a rule for it, is suggesting it's not a woman's place. And like I said, is a very dated concept.

QatariLady , yes of course the women can go to work if she needs to do so,no problem, but the best place for the women is the home. It is a place of security for her.

MissX I dcn't see the responsibilities being a form of power?!

We live in kindness with one another and we don't oppress one another with having some sort of power.....

NO, that is a misconception , it is kindness not having power

[quote:] "It's a very neat way of keeping a form of control over the women. That, or it's just more evidence of the distrust men have in women to make responsible decisions regarding themselves and their future."

Wrong.. A woman CAN have a career, but what if she was unempolyed for any reason? How will she pay her bills? If she HAD to work then this might open the door to professions like prostitution because every woman is qualified for this job! Will a woman work as a prostitute if she wasn't under a financial pressure?

Yes a brother inherits more than a sister because his responsibilities are more not because he is WORTH more.

mmyke..

Are you ignoring the statement where a daughter (girl) inherits more than her father (guy)? or do you skip lines?

This is how the system is organized.. Males and females have non-negotiable gender-specific responsibilities. If women are to support themselves financially, then men have to breastfeed! Both have power.. Men cannot live without women..

Exactly, the men have more responsibilities. You don't see this as a form of power? Adults have more responsibilities than our children because we recognise their inability to handle them.

[quote:] "the man makes the money and the women gets to stay home ."

The system is flexible.. She can work if she wants but she's not forced to make a living..

Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allâh has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend (to support them) from their means. (An-Nisa 4:34)

male and female are equal in Islam, they both get the same punishment and the same reward for their deeds!

Whoever works righteousness, whether male or female, while he (or she) is a true believer (of Islâmic Monotheism) verily, to him We will give a good life (in this world with respect, contentment and lawful provision), and We shall pay them certainly a reward in proportion to the best of what they used to do (i.e. Paradise in the Hereafter). (An-Nahl 16:97)

no difference there.

BUT the responsibility are different, Allah made the man the supporter of the woman and the woman are the once that take care of the family ( house ,kids and so on) fair enough !

So therefor it would be a burden to send the women to work after she gives birth and works at home and she has to make money , NO, the man makes the money and the women gets to stay home .

It's from the wisdom of Allah , things we may or may not understand, to me it's perfectly clear !

Women are created to have children , they are loving and caring and men are the once that go to wars and fight and work and so on.

Men and women are as different as they can be ...

I don't feel like I'm worth half of a man, because of that.

she is worth 1/2 a guy,,,,that will settle this dispute!! :)

The thing is, the answer is still yes. You give reasons why it is so, but the fact remains that the sons get more. As you said, if the women are unmarried then the sons are obligated to support them. Not only do men get more money, they can choose how to support his sisters. It's a very neat way of keeping a form of control over the women. That, or it's just more evidence of the distrust men have in women to make responsible decisions regarding themselves and their future. It's dated, and it shows.

P.S I have no problem having my name quoted in this regard, quote away.

This rule (1 male witness =2 females witnesses) is applicable to financial transactions only. ( I heard this from a Saudi scholar). It is mentioned in the verse that recommends the documentation of loans.

For testimony on any other issue a woman equals a man.

As in shariaa courts; you need one man to give 'shadaah' represent an evidence in a case or to equalise 2 females...

could this justifies the above; not 100% sure.

[quote:] "Although i do not think you should have named the person you named."

I presume you're referrng to mentioning MissX's name. I didn't do it in a negative sense because I don't see any problem with it..

I apologize to her if she finds it embarrassing..

Yes in this case males get double the share of females as I said due to the financial responsibilities they hold. If the sisters aren't married then those brothers who took double the share are obligated to support the sisters' basic financial needs.

In Islam women are always supported by men. Work to women is optional.

Huh, what wife?

I'm talking about if a man dies, and his inheritance is going to be distributed to his children. His son's receive a larger amount that his daughters, in those proportions that I quoted from the Quran.

Allah chargeth you concerning (the provision for) your children: to the male the equivalent of the portion of two females, and if there be women more than two, then theirs is two-thirds of the inheritance, and if there be one (only) then the half. And to of his parents a sixth of the inheritance, if he have a son; and if he have no son and his parents are his heirs, then to his mother appertaineth the third; and if he have brethren, then to his mother appertaineth the sixth, after any legacy he may have bequeathed, or debt (hath been paid)

Quran Chapter 4, Verse 11

You're definitly right about this and it's a shame that Islam be judged because of such fine details..

The wife's share in this case is half the husband's due to the difference in liabilities.

In the case where someone dies without children all siblings (male and female) have equal shares.

I understand your concern, QL. But, if Qatar claims to be an Islamic State, as they do in the draft constitution, then they should not do what they are doing! It, indeed, casts a bad light on Muslims (at least those in Qatar).

Then it's a redundant statement as I've already said that it is indeed practised.. I opened this thread to clarify that it's not an Islamic rule but caused by male dominance.

AbuAmerica is right when he says that westerners seem to link every mistake that Muslims do to Islam whether the mistake is cultural or due to ignorance or negligence..

Why do I care to clarify? Coz I love my religion and hate to see it being wronged..

Yes but QL, in the cases where the father dies. And all children are deemed equal in kinship. The rules of inheritance distribution applies?

QatariLady, I don't have a question. According to what is practiced here women are worth half of what men are. That's not a question, that's a statement.

MissX..

You asked what determines the closeness of children.. By closeness I don't mean "favorism". Maybe the term "kinship" I used isn't very accurate but in the example I cited a woman's daughter is closer to her (as she's part of her) than the husband, that's why the daughter's share is bigger than the husband's. So siblings are equal in this regard, but brothers have more financial liabilities than their sisters.

Funiculus..

Sorry I seem to have misunderstood your question at first.. What I want in a case of a divorce is FAIRNESS. If a woman asks for a divorce, she can get it provided that she pays back what the husband paid her as dowry nothing more. If the husband divorces her then she doesn't pay the dowry back and as the wife isn't supposed to remarry for three months then he has to pay her an allowance for this period. The amount is determined depending on the couple's status and the husband's potential.. I believe that this is fair enough..

MagicDragon..

Read the first paragraph of the topic t find the answer to your question.

I did not talk about Indonesia and its 300 million Muslims, no.

I'm talking about Qatar only, Abu.

According to the laws in Qatar women are worth half a man: "as the bloodmoney for women is half of those for men."(The Gulf Times, quoting a verdict from a Qatari court). I do not understand why you discuss this issue. If the court says the bloodmoney for a woman is worth half a man, then this is how it is!

And I dont think this has helped...

"Criticism has levelled about Muslims who use the 72 Virgins concept to meet certain goals, e.g. as a way to entice other Muslims into carry out henious activities that may endanger their life. It is most often used to entice suicide bombers, coaxing them that they will die as martyrs and will be rewarded with 72 virgins in paradise. In one event, British Muslim teenage boys were told to train with Kalashnikov rifles and promised 72 virgins in paradise if they died as religious martyrs.[30] It is thought that such enticing methods become the main motivation for poor, depressed and uneducated Muslim youths to become suicide bombers thinking they will spend eternity with 72 Virgins in paradise. "

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I think you have me confused with someone who gives a sh1t.

Closer in "kinship"..All children are equal here..

Details later :) sorry

Bye

There are different regulations depending who wants the divorce ..

I'll answer it when I come back later..

http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/72_Virgins

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I think you have me confused with someone who gives a sh1t.

Does this have anything to do with the Nazis, Hitler or Mohammad Atta too???

They call it the American dream because you have to be asleep to see it... --George Carlin

QL,how do you determine which child was closest to the father when he dies? I would imagine most children are equally as close to their parent. Doesn't that mean that rule I quoted above, applies. Where the son's then get more than the daughters?

[quote:] "I use the term these lot because its always the same ones who are on about this sort of thing. Apparently you haven't noticed."

Actually I have but they can't stop me :)

So QatariLady,

What according to you, not according to something else, is the right approach towards lets say a divorce, what would you expect in case you would want a divorce?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_Islam

It would be too long to cut n paste here.

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I think you have me confused with someone who gives a sh1t.

umm..

nothing, where do I claim this?

Abu,

very mature, glad you meet expectations.

F. U. and what makes you so qualified in this tread?

Please don't start a quarrel in my thread!

Abu, maybe you should pretend to be a wise man and ignore these posts if they bother you so much.

Again, you are a rotten apple in this particular basket.

Oh I remebered something now..

A few days ago I heard a Saudi scholar say that during a man's life when he wishes to give his children some properties it has to be equal for males and females.. The 1/2 rule is after death only so I believe the same goes with allowance..

Qatarilady,

All I know is that he got divorced, he had a house where his kids and family was living.

I adored this man, he was an artist - pottery, and really interesting to talk to.

Lets say, exactly the opposite of Abu. *smack*

Although i do not think you should have named the person you named, it is better to replace it with 'someone', this person will know, others do not need to know.

QatariLady,

Thank you for posting this post, it is interesting and hopefully informative.

Yet again Abu, you disqualify people before (not even after) they reacted. You really really do not understand the dynamics of a forum, such a simple thing.

I petty you (and those around you), in each post you display sourness, negativity and intolerance combined with a heavily misplaced feeling of superiority.

A sad man you are indeed.

What was the context? Was he talking about the kids' allowance? If so, I'll check what is practised in courts here and get you the answer..

They are really not a "lot" but they're individuals.. Some are curious, some aren't.. some are tolerant and some are religion-hypersensitive.. I do what "I" think is right and to everyone his mentality..

In Kuwait, I had it explained to me as MissX stated by a Kuwaiti that went through a divorce.

he said, and I never forget this because it shocked me

"The male is worth a Dollar and the Female 50ct"

True or not, it is in line with the reality of everyday when looking at the status of a female here.

Sorry I meant "deceased" not "deseased"!