Judging a religion by it's followers
I was reading a previous post about Haiti and was compelled to write this as a new forum rather than respond to a thread that had gotten way off topic. Why is it that some people try to attach a persons deeds to their religion. You cannot judge the validity of a religion by individual followers. Some people are assuming that the people who tried to smuggle those children out of Haiti MUST BE innocent simply because they are part of a Christian group, just like people tried to say all Muslims are bad because of 9-11. (By the way check out http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/ if you want to know the truth of September 11.) No one yet knows the intentions of those people who tried to take those "poor orphans" out of Haiti. Some of those children have since been reunited with their families and thought they were going to a temporary camp for kids until their families were found. Maybe we will never know the real intentions of that group, maybe their intentions were good but their methods were bad who knows. All I am saying is don't judge anything or anyone at face value. There are good and bad people in all religions. To judge a religion you have to go to the source of the 3 main religions(it's basic principles and book like the Quran/Sunnah, the Bible or the Torah)not on the actions of the followers because they may be misguided. Do not base your judgement of people on something like their religion, but rather on their character and deeds. It is up to Allah/God to judge the people by what is in their hearts, not us.
I wish you all nice time.
Why So Many Religions?
By- Yusuf Estes
If there is only one God, then why are there so many religions?
All religions originated with Allah and then people began to add or take away from the teachings so as to take control over each other.
{This day, those who disbelieved have given up all hope of your religion, so fear them not, but fear Me. This day, I have perfected your religious Way of life for you, completed My Favour upon you, and have chosen for you to surrender and submit to me in peace as your religious way of life..} [Holy Quran 5:3].
Allah does not force anyone to submit to Him. He has laid out a clear path and then made it known to them the two ways (Heaven or Hell). The person is always free to make his or her own choice.
There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the Right Path has become distinct from the wrong path. Whoever disbelieves in taghut (false gods and false worship) and believes in Allah, then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that will never break. And Allah is All-Hearer, All-Knower.
{Allah is the Wali (Protector or Guardian) of those who believe. He brings them out from darkness into light. But as for those who disbelieve, their Auliya (supporters and helpers) are Taghut [false gods and false worship.], they bring them out from light into darkness. Those are the dwellers of the Fire, and they will remain there forever} [Holy Quran 2:256-257].
There is no compulsion in the way of "Islam." Whoever chooses to worship Allah without partners and is devoted to Him and is obeying His commands as much as possible has grasped the firm handhold that will never break. Whoever denies God and chooses some other way to worship or not to believe at all, for them there is an eternal punishment that is most horrible (Hell).
People began to seperate into different groups due to their rejection of truth and denial of clear proofs becoming evident to them from their Lord.
{And the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) differed not amongst themselves until after clear evidence came to them.
And they were not commanded anything more than this; to worship Allah, alone (without making partners with Him in worship) and establish regular devotional prayers and pay the charity due to the poor; and this is the correct Way (way of life and religion)}. [Holy Quran 98:4-5].
Allah warns the Muslims not to fall into the same trap as the people before them, by disputing with each other and seperating into different religious groups:
{And be not as those who divided and differed among themselves after the clear proofs had come to them. It is they for whom there is an awful torment.
On the Day (i.e. the Day of Resurrection) when some faces will become white and some faces will become black; as for those whose faces will become black (to them will be said): "Did you reject Faith after accepting it? Then taste the torment (in Hell) for rejecting Faith} [Holy Quran 3:105-106].
People lied about the revelations, changed their scriptures and abused and even murdered the prophets whom Allah sent to them.
And verily, among them is a party who distort the Book with their tongues (as they read), so that you may think it is from the Book, but it is not from the Book, and they say: {This is from Allah," but it is not from Allah; and they speak a lie against Allah while they know it.
It is not (possible) for any human being to whom Allah has given the Book and Al-Hukma (the knowledge and understanding of the laws of religion, etc.) and Prophethood to say to the people: "Be my worshippers rather than Allah's." On the contrary (he would say): "Be you Rabbaniyun (learned men of religion who practice what they know and also preach others), because you are teaching the Book, and you are studying it} [Holy Quran 3:78-79].
Prophets of Allah only ask people to worship Allah, as One God without partners. They would never ask people to worship them or anyone or anything else. Allah tells us in the Quran:
{Nor would he (a messenger of Allah) order you to take angels and Prophets for lords (gods). Would he order you to disbelieve after you have submitted to Allah's Will?}
[Holy Quran 3:80].
Man made religions are an abomination before the Lord and will never be accepted.
{Do they seek other than the regious way of life of Allah (the true Islamic Monotheism worshipping none but Allah Alone), while to Him submitted all creatures in the heavens and the earth, willingly or unwillingly. And to Him shall they all be returned}. [Holy Quran 3:83].
Allah will only accept true submission, obedience and in purity and peace to His commandments.
{And whoever seeks a Way of life other than submission and surrender to Allah's Will (Islam), it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers}
[Holy Quran 3:85].
To believe in Allah and follow His Commandments has been the message of all prophets of monotheism.
http://www.godallah.com/why_many_religions.php
the following
Can We Be Happy Without God?
http://www.readingis...
Answering Atheists Concerning God
http://www.readingis...
Understanding God's Attributes
http://www.readingis...
Doubting God's Existence
http://www.readingis...
Knowing God Through God
http://www.readingis...
Why Can't We See God?
http://www.readingis...
Who Created God?
http://www.readingis...
Who Is "Allah"?
http://www.readingis...
Is Allah a Special God for Muslims?
http://www.readingis...
Collectively this argument goes into the direction of "My god is greater than yours" or "Holier than thou". kind of things. Just anybody would like to be a champion of their respective religion, and there will be no ends. Someday, some one will pop up saying, "my cow is holier than the rest"...shalom!
I had requested to meet you in one of the threads and you did not responded..
If you have any interest in meeting the bow of your straight arrow....PM me bro.. :-)
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Read more: http://www.readingislam.com/servlet/Satellite?hSection=DIEUI&pagename=Zone-English-Discover_Islam/DIESection#ixzz0fW5Lnt3r
because Mr. Ahmad Deedat who is well know for his debates has discovered more than 1000 error in the bible and you can look for Ahmad Deedat debates in your free time.
Remember JoeAnne the purpose of any religion is to make you better person.
The truth is that these problems appear as soon as these things happen. And yes, you are right. Religion cannot be judged just because some of those who are part of it do bad things like the ones you enumerated above. And those who believe this is the way things should be done, then they should have an online bible study to reconsider things.
everyone has his own idea which other can't force to change the said idea/belief...
now, why argue?! who ever your god is?! who ever you praise... the question is... does your god help you to become a better person?!
different religions have different books... Bible... Quran... that teaches good values and attitudes... question: do you follow your religion's teaching?! or you're just proud of your religion but never live the way people of your religion should live?!
how are you today?
betweeb Islam, Christianity, and Judasim
I had posted an answer for him in the political section the post is called many points in common.
because it will clarify many misconeptions:
http://www.readingislam.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-AAbout_Islam/AskAboutIslamE/AskAboutIslamE&cid=1188043914402
1. Why do you think the article by Rick Mathes entitled: “Allah or Jesus?” is being circulated so widely among ordinary Americans through e-mail? Why do you think the author chose the title “Allah or Jesus?”
2. Is it true that an “infidel” is a non-believer (like me)? If so, is it true that the Qur’an actually instructs Muslims to kill non-believers to guarantee them a place in heaven? If so, what are the exact words (or as near as they can be in translation)?
3. What is jihad? Is this a real on-going endless call for the murder of “non-believers” (a bit like Bush’s War on Terror), or is it a metaphor describing the need to fight for what you believe in and share your faith with the doubters? Explain.
Here is “Allah or Jesus?” By Rick Mathes:
Last month I attended my annual training session that is required for maintaining my state prison security clearance. During the training session there was a presentation by three speakers representing the Roman Catholic, Protestant and Muslim faiths who explained their belief systems. I was particularly interested in what the Islamic imam had to say.
The imam gave a great presentation about the basics of Islam complete with a video. After the presentations, time was provided for questions and answers. When it was my turn I directed my question to the imam and asked:
“Please, correct me if I’m wrong, but I understand that most imams and clerics of Islam have declared a holy jihad (holy war) against the non-believers of the world. And, that by killing a infidel, which is a command to all Muslims, they are assured of a place in heaven. If that is the case, can you give me the definition of an infidel?”
There was no disagreement with my statements and without hesitation he replied: “Non-believers!”
I responded: “So, let me make sure I have this straight. All followers of Allah have been commanded to kill everyone who is not of your faith so they can go to heaven. Is that correct?”
The expression on his face changed from one of authority and command to that of a little boy who had just gotten caught with his hand in the cookie jar. He sheepishly replied: “Yes.”
I then stated: “Well, sir, I have a real problem trying to imagine Pope John Paul commanding all Catholics to kill those of your faith or Pat Robertson or Dr. Stanley ordering Protestants to do the same in order to go to heaven!”
The imam was speechless.
I continued: “I also have a problem with being your friend when you and your brother clerics are telling your followers to kill me. Let me ask you a question: Would you rather have your Allah who tells you to kill me in order to go to heaven or my Jesus who tells me to love you because I am going to heaven and wants you to be with me?”
You could have heard a pin drop as the imam hung his head in shame. Chuck Colson once told me something that has sustained me these 20 years of prison ministry. He said to me: “Rick, remember that the truth will prevail.” And it will!
Answer is here in the link to all the above questions:
Read more: http://www.readingislam.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1123996016474&pagename=IslamOnline-English-AAbout_Islam/AskAboutIslamE/AskAboutIslamE#ixzz0f7ud9btG
That is quite a nice saying indeed. I do agree with it.
deepb here in Arabic culture we have sayings which are said in different occasions and we have also some wisdome statements.
One of these wisdome statememts says there are people which you must respect them and other people stay away from them.
Staying away is also showing respect for your self and for them.
Do you agree with me deepb?
I truly admire Khalid for his single-track mind at times. Wonder if its real patience or it's a case of Ignorance being bliss.
to fight each other, we are only expressing our opinion using some references.
winn....u can't beat him,man! :-D
Going to church no more makes you a Christian than standing in a garage makes you a car. ~ Garrison Keillor
for expressing the necessary skills for debate and sure I will use these skills in next debates.
thanks SS, i'm already doing it *wink* :)it was the first thing my mom said to me on the phone when she heard my dragging-a-30-ton-rusty-old-chain-machine-like voice :D
Yalla!
awww!get well soon,buddy....and remember to get back to good ol' Vicks Vaporub before u sleep tonight....afterall it's what all mommies advise :-) cheers!
Going to church no more makes you a Christian than standing in a garage makes you a car. ~ Garrison Keillor
@winn, looooooooooooolllllllll
@SS, well i'm on antibiotics, that big pill that looks like suppository :D ouch, the pain in my throat :(
i don't know about paracetamol and coffee, i'll google it along with winn's Luttaappi ;) loooooollll winn, THANK YOU :)
Yalla!
ROFL Winn!!!!welcome to the scene....we missed ya!
Going to church no more makes you a Christian than standing in a garage makes you a car. ~ Garrison Keillor
Well, Mr.Straight Arrow, let me begin by thanking you for providing a much needed entertainment. The way you fly on a tangent and then come back with a hastily lifted link with none of your precious thoughts expended on it, really reminds me of my fav childhood character, the 'Luttaappi'. (For the uninitiated, he is the goofy imp that messes up the devious plots of his masters by his own attempts to help them)
As for your religious arguments, let me tell you a basic philosophy to be adhered to in any debate.
The references you make must be quoted from a source that is mutually acceptable to both parties in the debate. Quran is a book that YOU believe in, but not the people whom you are trying to sell to. So, the fact that Quran says (or your prophet or hadith)so doesnt make any difference to someone who doesnt believe in it. Try stepping out of your well, have a look around and then try to pick your arguments.
Rest of you all, can thank me for being pedantic.
(p.S: Straight Arrow: if you wanna reply to this mail by cut and paste, do give a google search with terms like 'luttaappi','tangent', 'mutually acceptable','debate', 'source' and so on. You can cut and paste from any of the results. and please dont let people discourage you. Your efforts are highly appreciated!!)
Ah Finally......you to have a nice day straight arrow. So now, this topic officially rest in peace. Time for lunch everyone:-)
I am sorry because I went to another topic by mistake, my appology.
Thanks Saggi for enlighting me with some Urdo words.
To all of you have a nice day.
chillax buddy!so where were we?ah yes!our nescafe and lipton tea.i'm done with my second cup too :-D he he!hey did u read the thread which said that paracetamol and coffee don't go well together.jeez!that was scary!and i thought a panadol with a cup of strong coffee can cure any stubborn headache! :-/
Going to church no more makes you a Christian than standing in a garage makes you a car. ~ Garrison Keillor
i repeat my comment...i called Vic Bhai....coz Bhai means brother in Hindi and Urdu!and Bhai is not Baha'i!
Going to church no more makes you a Christian than standing in a garage makes you a car. ~ Garrison Keillor
I still did not understand you and did not get the answer to my last question to Eco_Savy.
straight arrow, seriously, seriously, go get laid.
Yalla!
Even so many people giving up on the topic could not stop straight arrow, he he he.....go on .....whether anybody is willing to hear or not.
And you know I was shocked because I have discovered that they worship another person who is called Ali (one of our prophet friends) God bliss him, so phoenix2009 just to enlighten you Islam tells you worship only one God (Allah), so conclusion Bhai is against Islam principle.
More answers will be in the link I put.
I do not care if some one has religion or know as long as he/she has good respects to others and good attitude and treatment.
But realilty is that many gets annoyed when some one puts some of his belief because they think that this forcing them to believe the same and this way of thinking I consider a negative thing.
No One Can Force Any One.
Longtime, how r u?
Please elaborate your comments to SA :-)
please explain to me what do you mean by "why are you denying fuel to Hell ..."?
svelte_saggi you will find good answers in the link I put and it is a short article and I think it is worth reading it.
enuf already
hahahahahahahaha!!!!omg!i can't believe i just read that!dude,i called vic 'bhai'....which means brother in Hindi and urdu....do u understand?and i did not say anything about Baha'i faith....what is that,btw???i honestly have no idea!
Going to church no more makes you a Christian than standing in a garage makes you a car. ~ Garrison Keillor
Yalla!
straight arrow, i think you should start some serious readings on theology, and please, start with Islam.
your good intentions are little bit demeaned by your narrow knowledge.
please Read, Don't ask anyone, like Mutawaa or some, just READ and READ and keep on READING until you stop talking at all.
"the more i know, the more i know how ignorant i am"
Yalla!
does not suit me but me suit others.
Here is a question which some one asked
I have been Muslim all my life, but as of late have been studying the Baha’i faith. What can you tell me about this faith, if anything, in its relationship to Islam? What is Islam's position regarding it as a valid and holy religion?
The answere is in the link below
Read more: http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503544288#ixzz0evTmj3SF
Well I want to put some of their beliefs
Some Baha’i principles and beliefs:
1. Incarnation: Al-Bab claimed that Allah was personified in him. Also, he claimed himself to be god after his claim to prophethood. The same was claimed by `Abbas Afandi.
2. Inseparability of Allah from the world as claimed by some ancient philosophers.
3. Denial of the Day of Judgment. They interpret Paradise as the spiritual life, and Fire as the spiritual death.
4. Denial of the Prophets’ miracles and interpreting them as immaterial things, though they admit the possibility of prophethood. This shows the contradiction in their ideas and beliefs.
5. Claiming that they receive Divine Revelation (wahy) and writing books they claim to be better than the Glorious Qur’an.
6. The prophets were not sealed or finalized by Prophet Muhammad; the seal, to them, means the best, as claimed by the Qadyanis.
7. Going so far in interpreting the Glorious Qur’an – which they do not completely adhere to, but still use – to propagate their beliefs and “innovations”. There are many of these deviant and odd interpretations in one of their propagators’ books (Abu Al-Fadl Al-Garfadqani), entitled Ad-Durar Al-Bahiyyah.
8. There are many branches of their belief, foremost among which are the following:
a- The divine nature of the number “19” which is a Jewish concept. To them, the year consists of 19 months, the month consists of 19 days.
b- Lastly, they tried to interpret the Glorious Qur’an in the light of that “Divine” number. To them, prayer consists of 9 rak`ahs (i.e. prayer units). Their qiblah (i.e. direction of prayer) is where the Baha’ is. To them, it is a must to denounce Hajj and moreover, they should demolish the Sacred House when they are able to.
An explaination is in the link below:
Read more: http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503544288#ixzz0evUi9yMm
Bhai is not good for different reasons:
First they have what they think is a prophet.
Second they also do things which contradicts with holy Quran, what I mean is clear things, for example as far as I know in Bhai a person can marry the daughter of his brother or sister.
Bhai sounds really good...
Life is not to be taken that seriously....it is difficult to take control over, Infact, it takes its own twist and turns and make all of us flow :)
Whatz new today.....a cup of Green Tea or yellow Lipton tea?
svelte,brrrrrrrrr, my creamy nescafee is on the way now. i'm good, just have rivers going out of my nose since few days now, and i almost can't hear anything now with my left ear, so please face my right side when taking to me;D
brrrrrrrrrrrr it's still cold.
Yalla!
c'mon vic....take life easy,bhai.it's too short to be taken so seriously.or for that matter to be even obsessed with just one thing....i strive to find a new obsession everyday :-D once i find one,i forget the previous one.that's how MY life keeps going :-) cheers!
Going to church no more makes you a Christian than standing in a garage makes you a car. ~ Garrison Keillor
- Religious open discussion is not for all.
- One need to have indepth knowledge of own religion and basic understanding of all other global religions.
- One need to be highly patient and open minded, speak less and listen more to the PoV.
- Discuss with people who are flexible and ready to accept the truth and facts.
- You can't discuss religion, who are hardliners and have poor understanding of their own religion.
- Certain pre requisites are Must to join healthy debate.
all over obsessed in their own World....Let them live and relaxed :)
Straight Arrow read Surah Al Kafirun's last verse....
"Lakum dinukum valiyadin".period
phoenix2009....g'morning to you too....i've just gulped down my steaming hot Lipton....whoo!that felt good.warmed my insides.howz u doing this fine day?
Going to church no more makes you a Christian than standing in a garage makes you a car. ~ Garrison Keillor
please share your thoughts.
deepb they say
No life with give up and No give up with life.
Deepb my message is that people are not forced to do things they do not believe in but on the other hand people can read choose and compare and see what is better for them.
A belief can be increased or decreased accoeding to the person him self.
A belief is defined as it is what stays in the heart and shown by the acts.
deepb you are also a very good person and open minded and I am sure many likes you too, I wish you a continuous happiness and success.
I give up.
Good morning phoenix2009
I am sure Nic you have not gone through these verses
We read in the Qur'an what means:
*{But if they turn aside, We have not sent you as a watcher over them; on you is only to deliver (the message); and surely when We make man taste mercy from Us, he rejoices thereat; and if an evil afflicts them on account of what their hands have already done, then surely man is ungrateful.}* (Ash-Shura 42:48)
All Muslims strongly believe that their duties in da`wah are limited to the conveyance of the message. They also believe that embracing Islam is due to guidance, which only occurs by the grace of Allah.
*{It is true you will not be able to guide everyone whom you love; but Allah guides those whom He will and He knows best those who receive guidance.}* (Al-Qasas 28:56)
Performing da`wah is governed by several guidelines. First, there is no compulsion in religion.
*{Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah hears and knows all things.}* (Al-Baqarah 2:256)
Second, da`wah should be practiced with wisdom and the best preaching.
*{Invite (all) to the way of your Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for your Lord knows best who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance.}* (An-Nahl 16:125)
For full article please go to the link below
Read more: http://www.readingislam.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1177155896328&pagename=IslamOnline-English-AAbout_Islam/AskAboutIslamE/AskAboutIslamE#ixzz0ev1SY3uv
Good morning phoenix2009
Nic I would like to share with you the following verse from the holy Quran which you may not have gone through and others probably
We read in the Qur'an what means:
*{But if they turn aside, We have not sent you as a watcher over them; on you is only to deliver (the message); and surely when We make man taste mercy from Us, he rejoices thereat; and if an evil afflicts them on account of what their hands have already done, then surely man is ungrateful.}* (Ash-Shura 42:48)
All Muslims strongly believe that their duties in da`wah are limited to the conveyance of the message. They also believe that embracing Islam is due to guidance, which only occurs by the grace of Allah.
*{It is true you will not be able to guide everyone whom you love; but Allah guides those whom He will and He knows best those who receive guidance.}* (Al-Qasas 28:56)
Performing da`wah is governed by several guidelines. First, there is no compulsion in religion.
*{Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah hears and knows all things.}* (Al-Baqarah 2:256)
Second, da`wah should be practiced with wisdom and the best preaching.
*{Invite (all) to the way of your Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for your Lord knows best who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance.}* (An-Nahl 16:125)
For those interested to read the full article please visit the link below
Read more: http://www.readingislam.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1177155896328&pagename=IslamOnline-English-AAbout_Islam/AskAboutIslamE/AskAboutIslamE#ixzz0ev1SY3uv
morning saggi,
how about if i "shake" the turkish coffee for a nice sunny freezing morning??;D
Yalla!
of a civilized person which many will respect you because of your good behaviour and attitude and I appreciate your nice replies.
I am really disapointed because many people think that when some links or copy and paste that I am forcing them to change.
What I am trying to do is only to explain only the origin of our thinking.
No one can force any one.
As long as you are good person I do not care if you have religion or no.
good lord!u are incurable!i give up!no use trying to put some sense into people when their minds are so full with wrong notions.fine!to each his own....
and mr.straight arrow,thank you for all your paragraphs.but i am very happy the way i am and will remain so until my last breath.i have lived a very happy and content life until now by following my beliefs.nothing or no one can shake my belief from my faith.period.
Going to church no more makes you a Christian than standing in a garage makes you a car. ~ Garrison Keillor
A civilized man when debates will never use bad words or get angry.
Un civilized man when debates will be angry if he loose one point and say bad words.
Q: What benefit do people get when they say bad words?
Ans.: Nothing
It is simple and better for you to be quite and see about the copy paste I will not do it again I will just put a short paragraph and the link for those who are intersted.
See Nic if you go to a bad place where there are bad people and these people insulted you, please do not come and complain because it is your mistake if you knew that that place is bad.
But if you did not know then it will be an experience for you.
See this thread is called juddging religion by its followers so it is natural to have some religious topics here.
Nic I think you do not accept others point of view, why?
Straight Arrow,
You sure have a mission to make everybody here hate your religion.
Can’t you see the negative reactions to your silly and dumb attempts of indoctrination?!
You are so limited that don’t even have rational and logic ability to debate intelligently!
Your copy-pastes say it all about your limitations and you have been spotted by all of us!
You insist to continue the failed path of your previous nickname Khalid, you’ll go nowhere as you are probably suspecting by now!
STOP IT before Allah punishes you for damaging your own religion!
Today unfortunately many want to prove the truth of Islam by science facts and this is wrong way to prove it.
The purpose of any religion is to make you better person, if not then what is the purpose of religion?
Since thousand years the old Egyptians believed that the dead person will come alive again and that is because if one of them is dead they put his/her belongings with him/her in his/her grave.
I find it interesting that most muslim converts always state that if they were to judge Islam by its followers, they never would have converted. They actually read the Quran and and its teachings which made them decide to convert. Hence if they were closed minded and judged religion by its followers, they never wouldve converted. Most muslim born people take their religion for granted and probably dont understand it completely and follow blindly.
I do agree that the way a religious group conducts itself publicly will impact on other peoples judgement of that particular religion but any sane person knows in the end some people dont necessarily practice what they preach and would be foolish to brand a religion based on how others practice.
If a person was really interested they would read up on the religion before making such a judgement, regardless of what religion it is. It is only then that they can make a proper judgement of a religion and can decide if it they think its good or bad. To me the people who are judging the religion by its followers are no better than the people who are claiming to be religious without really understanding the religion itself.
wrong place my brother to discuss this topic.....
People have learned and understood Science better, which has taken their brains for a longer ride say 3000 years or certain light years; once the hang over is down then they will seek religion for help.
Hope their souls will be intact in their bodies to accept the facts (scientifically anything is possible....A new God and religion)
I'm not saying it's a shame Khalid. Just saying its easier for people to understand and they will take you more seriously. The previous post with just one small paragraph and link was quite good. That way people get the idea. If they are interested they read through the link. The next one on the other hand is too much copy paste information and people are more interested in reading other people's views here, rather than copy-paste information.
To put it simply, how you interpret the Quotations would be more interesting than the Quotation itself.
1. The Linguistic Meaning of Fitrah
‘Every new-born child is born in a state of fitrah. Then his parents make him a Jew, a Christian or a Magian, just as an animal is born intact. Do you observe any among them that are maimed (at birth)?’[1]
The word fitrah comes from the Arabic radicals fa ta ra, the verbal noun being fatrun. The root action means, he clove, split, slit, rent or cracked it. Note the usage of the first form fatarahu (He created it); that is, He caused it to exist, newly, for the first time. Thus fatiru’s-samâwât, the Originator or Creator of the heavens.[2]
The second form, fattara(hu) (verbal noun taftir), denotes repetition, muchness and frequency of the root action which means, as we saw, he clove, split, slit, rent or cracked it.[3] Futira (‘ala shay’) is equivalent to tubi‘a, which is the passive form of taba‘a (verbal noun tab‘un) he sealed, stamped, printed or impressed, being a synonym of khatama, he sealed. Ar-Râghib says that it means the impression of a thing with the engraving of the signet and stamp; thus taba‘a’llâhu ‘alâ qalbihî ‘Allâh sealed his heart’, that is the unbeliever’s heart. Similarly, khatama ‘alaihi, pertains to the natural constitution which denotes a quality of the soul; either by creation or habit, but more especially the creation.[4] Also, taba ‘a’llâhu ‘alâ amr – ‘Allâh created (him) with a disposition to the affair, state or condition’. Likewise, tubi‘a ‘ala shay’ ‘he was created with a disposition to a thing’ which is synonymous with jubila or futira.[5] Tab‘un – originally a verbal noun – signifies nature or an inborn disposition. Its synonyms are sajjiyah, jibillah, khalîqah, tabî‘ah and mizâj. These are names for innate natural disposition which cannot change, and which exists at birth in all human beings.[6] Thus, fitrah, having the same meaning as tab‘un, linguistically means an inborn natural disposition.
The term fitrah literally means, creation; the causing a thing to exist for the first time; and the natural constitution with which a child is created in his mother’s womb. It is said that is the meaning in the Qur'an (30:29), and in the central, opening hadith.[
For more information on Fitrah:
http://www.missionislam.com/knowledge/DefinitionFitrah.htm
If you go to the link you will know:
2. The Religious Meaning of Fitrah
3. Fitrah and Human Responsibility
4. Alienation from Fitrah
Islam holds that belief in one God is the fitrah (basic nature) of man, but why should it be so? Why can’t belief in many gods or in the Son of God be fitrah? How do we say that something is the fitrah? Please explain.
Answer is there in the link below:
Read more: http://www.readingislam.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1123996016604&pagename=IslamOnline-English-AAbout_Islam/AskAboutIslamE/AskAboutIslamE#ixzz0equCQkzv
deepb it is not a shame to put copy paste or link, it is a shame when you find the answer and do not show it.
Saggi the qoute which you commented on was a Hadith by our prophet Mohammed PBUH and this hadith was on the concept of Fitrah
Khalid please stop doing the copy-pastes. Leave the link to the site and maybe a small paragraph of summarizing what you understood from the link. That will make people take you more seriously.
Or ask questions and I will try to answer them without copy and paste.
If I did not find the answer I promise to get back to you with correct answers later on.
Rofl, he just proved saggi's theory about him rummaging through the internet for his next copy paste.
These answers are preposterous & illogical. How do you expect people to take you seriously if your answers lack logic. Don't just do a copy paste of something somebody wrote thousands of years ago. Apply your own mind otherwise you will just make a fool of yourself. OK, no more explanations please :)
I really appreciate your questions.
that it is up to you totally to enter this thread or no.
Saggi here what I found on Wahy
In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.
Dear brother in Islam, we hail your pursuit of knowledge and interest in getting yourself well-acquainted with the teachings of Islam. May Allah bless your efforts in seeking useful knowledge!
“The Arabic word ‘Wahy’ derived from the word ‘Awha’ means to inform secretly. Wahy is the primary way of Allah's communication with mankind. The word 'Wahy' is used in the Qur'an in many different ways as follows:
1. As an indication of the natural laws of nature when Allah says that He inspired in each heaven the natural order (Fussilat: 12).
2. Inspiration as a natural animal instinct, 'And your Lord inspired the bee…' (An-Nahl: 68)
3. As a human intuition or 'gut feeling', 'And We inspired the mother of Moses…'(Al-Qasas: 7)
4. Inspiration from a person to person through signal, '… He told them by signs to glorify Allah's praises…' (Maryam: 11)
5. Inspiration through evil whispers of Satan, '…And certainly, the Shaytaan do inspire their friends (from mankind) to dispute with you…' (Al-An`am: 121)
6. Allah’s guidance to angels, '(Remember) when your Lord inspired the angels…' (Al-Anfal: 12)
7. Allah’s guidance to Prophets, peace and blessings be upon them. Such Inspiration takes the following two forms:
a) Without intermediaries:
i) By way of dreams: For instance, Prophet Ibrahim, peace and blessings be upon him, saw in a vision that he was slaughtering his son, Prophet Isma`il, peace and blessings be upon him. The fact that he followed the dream and intended to slaughter his son is a proof that the dream serve as a revelation from Allah. Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him, said: “Wahy began with good dreams.” (Al-Bukhari)
ii) By direct speech: “And to Moses, Allah spoke directly.” (An-Nisa’: 164)
iii) By intuitive knowledge: Allah inspires into the hearts of His chosen ones knowledge and commandments. The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, said that Angel Gabriel inspired into his soul that no soul would pass away until it has completely exhausted its provisions and life span. (Reported by Abu Na`im in Al-Hilya)
2- With Intermediaries:
This consists of guidance sent down to the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, via Angel Gabriel. Only Angel Gabriel is known to have delivered Allah's revelations from the Qur'an and Sunnah.
Revelation to the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him
There are two aspects of this:
1. From Allah to Angel Gabriel: There are three views concerning the way Angel Gabriel brought the Qur'an from Allah, from the “Lawhul-Mahfouz” (the well-preserved tablet). The first and most correct opinion is the one that states that Gabriel spoke directly to Allah, “And (remember) when your Lord said to the angels…” (Al-Baqarah: 30) The second opinion is that Angel Gabriel took it directly from the “Lawhul-Mahfouz”. Finally, a rejected opinion is that the Qur'an was inspired by meaning to Angel Gabriel and the words were by Angel Gabriel himself. No proof exists for this and this contradicts the very essence of the Qur'an itself, since the Qur'an is the speech of Allah in word and meaning.
2. From Angel Gabriel to the Messenger, peace and blessings be upon him: There is a prophetic Hadith that says that the revelation came to the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, sometimes in a form of a ringing bell and sometimes Angel Gabriel appeared in the form of a man. `A’ishah, may Allah be pleased with her, said: “The commencement of the divine inspiration to Allah's Messenger was in the form of good dreams which came like bright daylight (i.e. true) and then the love of seclusion was bestowed upon him. He used to go in seclusion in the Cave of Hira; where he used to worship (Allah alone) continuously for many days till he had desire to see his family. He used to take with him food for the stay… Once, the truth descended upon him while he was in the Cave of Hira; the Angel came to him and asked him to read. The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, replied, "I do not know how to read." Then the Prophet added, “The angel caught me (forcibly) and pressed me so hard that I could not bear it anymore. He then released me and again asked me to read and I replied, ‘I do not know how to read’. Thereupon he caught me again and pressed me a second time till I could not bear it anymore. He then released me and again asked me to read, but again I replied, ‘I do not know how to read’ (or what shall I read?). Thereupon. he caught me for the third time and pressed me, and then released me and said: ‘Read, in the name of Your Lord, who created, created man from a clot. Read! And Your Lord is the most bountiful."
The first revelation that the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, received, according to one opinion of Imam As-Suyuti, was the first three verses of Surat Al-`Alaq. Another opinion is that the first revelation was the first five verses of Surat Al-`Alaq.
The Qur'an was revealed to the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, over a period of 23 years for many reasons out of Allah's Wisdom, some of which we can speculate upon. It was perhaps to strengthen the heart of the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, slowly and steadily out of consideration for the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him; so as to ease his tremendous task. Also, it was meant to implement the laws of Shari`ah gradually so that it would not be of great hardship for the new followers.”
Quoted, with slight modifications, from: http://www.uh.edu/campus/msa/qurhad/excel/uloom2.html
Read more: http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503546012#ixzz0eqqZ1dZY
I hope it explains more to you Saggi
I appreciate that Straight Arrow.. Atleast you are trying to give answers in a sensible way and not branding me an infidel for questioning..
**** Aal Izz Well****
you as much as I can guys
right now he's busy rummaging the internet to copy-paste his next sermon :-D this is routine.don't mind :-P
Going to church no more makes you a Christian than standing in a garage makes you a car. ~ Garrison Keillor
This is becoming such a ridiculous thread with Straight Arrow giving us sermons about his religion. Religions are created by God & only 3 religions are true? This is just preposterous. Dude, we don't want any of your "teachings". Olive, you said it. We still have 1500 years to listen to this bull-crap (until we get the next one). duh!
well said,WK....once you set about proving things in a faith,it ceases to be a faith anymore.it becomes fact/science!
Going to church no more makes you a Christian than standing in a garage makes you a car. ~ Garrison Keillor
i meant to ask where did the assumption that children are born to pray to a certain god come from?and wahy is some kinda fax transmisson of those days....?just curious.
Going to church no more makes you a Christian than standing in a garage makes you a car. ~ Garrison Keillor
Straight Arrow does it really explain anything?
Religion is about faith and beliefs.. You can never prove anything about any religion, it is just about believing.. You believe what you want to and let others believe what they want to...
**** Aal Izz Well****
Can you tell me please saggi?
by a process called (Wahy) and then the prophet PBUH was saying the versus which are received and some of our prophet PBUH friends (Sahabah) god bliss them were writing them on a piece of old sking or paper if available so they do not forget it.
After prophet PBUH died his friend Abu backer god bliss took over him and Omar God bliss suggested to Abu backer to gather the Quran in one book and the suggestion was accepted.
This is as far as I know and I hope it explains some things to you.
and how was that assumed?
Going to church no more makes you a Christian than standing in a garage makes you a car. ~ Garrison Keillor
God manifests Himself in many forms.the faith i follow teaches us that God has no form and is but merely a power....an ultimate power.and that power is within ur own self.it is immaterial whether u look at a stone or a wall or a bird or whatever and pray....what we pray to is to that power.if u did not know about that,please read about it and then comment.
oh....i forgot.certain faiths prohibit its followers from reading any scripture other than its own (wonder why the insecurity....hmm)....we have no such qualms and i can boldly say that i have read the bible,the qur'an and several other scriptures with equal reverence.
Going to church no more makes you a Christian than standing in a garage makes you a car. ~ Garrison Keillor
"If the child were left alone, he would worship Allah in his own way,"
Nonsense. If I child was left alone it would have no concept of God. If anything it would "worship" nature, not a singular male deity, providing it had no education at all. That's obvious from the most primitive of cultures.
"We submit to the majority because we have to. But we are not compelled to call our attitude of subjection a posture of respect." Ambrose Bierce
Straight Arrow who wrote Quran?
**** Aal Izz Well****
This qoute is a Hadith which was said by our prophet Mohammed PBUH.
This hadith is about fitrah.
okay,so u say that the child follows a particular faith just coz its parents force it to do so,right?so why is it that most of them stick onto what they believe until they die?it's just a few of them u see that change faiths....and most of such conversions have ulterior motives....cash,mainly and in some cases multiple marriages.
Going to church no more makes you a Christian than standing in a garage makes you a car. ~ Garrison Keillor
whyteknight I know that these are the true three religions because they were all mintioned in the holy Quran.
Because these religions share many things in common and put God in the highest place.
I will explain one point and I hope that I do not offend any one, does any one like his God like a toy or a statue which is man made?
Quote "If the child were left alone, he would worship Allah in his own way" Unquote.....so,doesn't that imply that the faith ought to have started wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy back in the stone age or even before that?why did it take so long to surface.duh!
Going to church no more makes you a Christian than standing in a garage makes you a car. ~ Garrison Keillor
Warnning some might be not intersted in reading this
whyteknight I want to share with you the following
In Islam our God is called Allah
RECOGNITION OF ALLAH
The question which arises here is, "How can all people be expected to believe in Allah given their varying- backgrounds, societies and cultures? For people to be responsible for worshipping Allah they all have to have access to knowledge of Allah. The final revelation teaches that all mankind have the recognition of Allah imprinted on their souls, a part of their very nature with which they are created.
In Soorah Al-A'raaf, Verses 172-173; Allah explained that when He created Adam, He caused all of Adam's descendants to come into existence and took a pledge from them saying, Am I not your Lord? To which they all replied, " Yes, we testify to It:'
Allah then explained why He had all of mankind bear witness that He is their creator and only true God worthy of worship. He said, "That was In case you (mankind) should say on the day of Resurrection, "Verily we were unaware of all this." That is to say, we had no idea that You Allah, were our God. No one told us that we were only supposed to worship You alone. Allah went on to explain That it was also In case you should say, "Certainly It was our ancestors who made partners (With Allah) and we are only their descendants; will You then destroy us for what those liars did?" Thus, every child is born with a natural belief in Allah and an inborn inclination to worship Him alone called in Arabic the "Fitrah".
If the child were left alone, he would worship Allah in his own way, but all children are affected by those things around them, seen or unseen.
The Prophet (PBUH) reported that Allah said, "I created my servants in the right religion but devils made them go astray". The Prophet (PBUH) also said, "Each child is born in a state of "Fitrah", then his parents make him a Jew, Christian or a Zoroastrian, the way an animal gives birth to a normal offspring. Have you noticed any that were born mutilated?" (Collected by Al-Bukhaaree and Muslim).
So, just as the child submits to the physical laws which Allah has put in nature, his soul also submits naturally to the fact that Allah is his Lord and Creator. But, his parents try to make him follow their own way and the child is not strong enough in the early stages of his life to resist or oppose the will of his parents. The religion which the child follows at this stage is one of custom and upbringing and Allah does not hold him to account or punish him for this religion.
Throughout people's lives from childhood until the time they die, signs are shown to them in all regions of the earth and in their own souls, until it becomes clear that there is only one true God (Allah). If the people are honest with themselves, reject their false gods and seek Allah, the way will be made easy for them but if they continually reject Allah's signs and continue to worship creation, the more difficult it will be for them to escape. For example, in the South Eastern region of the Amazon jungle in Brazil, South America, a primitive tribe erected a new hut to house their main idol Skwatch, representing the supreme God of all creation. The homage to the God, and while he was in prostration to what he had been taught was his Creator and Sustainer, a mangy old flea-ridden dog walked into the hut, The young man looked up in time to see the dog lift its hind leg and pass urine on the idol. Outraged, the youth chased the dog out of the temple, but when his rage died down he realized that the idol could not be the Lordof the universe. Allah must be elsewhere. he now had a choice to act on his knowledge and seek Allah, or to dishonestly go along with the false beliefs of his tribe. As strange as it may seem, that was a sign from Allah for that young man. It contained within it divine guidance that what he was worshipping was false.
Prophets were sent, as was earlier mentioned, to every nation and tribe to support man's natural belief in Allah and man's inborn inclination to worship Him as well as to reinforce the divine truth in the daily signs revealed by Allah. Although, in most cases, much of the prophets' teachings became distorted, portions remained which point out right and wrong. For example, the ten commandments of the Torah, their confirmation in the Gospels and the existence of laws against murder, stealing and adultery in most societies. Consequently, every soul will be held to account for its belief in Allah and its acceptance of the religion of Islam; the total submission to the will of Allah.
We pray to Allah, the exalted, to keep us on the right path to which He has guided us, and to bestow on us a blessing from Him, He is indeed the Most Merciful. Praise and gratitude be to Allah,the Lord of the worlds, and peace and blessings be on prophet Muhammed, his Family, his companions, and those who rightly follow them.
This was a part of an article for Abu ameena Bilal philips
Like I asked before but never got the answer, Straight Arrow can you tell me how do you know that these 3 religions are made by God?
**** Aal Izz Well****
Well given that the average "life-span" of a religion is about 3000 years we've only got about 1500 years left of this stuff. :)
"We submit to the majority because we have to. But we are not compelled to call our attitude of subjection a posture of respect." Ambrose Bierce
They have asked Sucrat (Greece Philosopher) who is the perfect one?
He answered the perfect one is the one who does not die.
nothing man made is perfect, such as religions (the example we are discussing here)!
Nothing in this world is perfect.
What comes around, goes around....
nomerci,
if that book/religion was perfect, it wouldn't leave room for misinterpretations and consequently so much hate and terror!
so not only that book/religion is not perfect but its also practiced by non perfect beings, the result is the chaos we all see!
on the other hand, it is all amatter of interpretation. If people have/do not have certain values, they will do accordingly.
What comes around, goes around....
I am with Arrow on this one.
If you know what the book of a particular religion says, and yoy see the people around doing wrong, it is not the fault of the book/religion, it is the fault of the people.
What comes around, goes around....
That's your opinion that they aren't following it properly. Ask Osama Bin Laden and I'll gurantee that he'll say he's following it properly and you aren't. The very fact that there can be such a disagreement over what is and what is not proper proves the religion is fallible and to blame for not being clear enough.
"We submit to the majority because we have to. But we are not compelled to call our attitude of subjection a posture of respect." Ambrose Bierce
straight arrow, you're taking this way too serious.
i don't give a f**k if you wanna insult me or no, and i don't want your goodies as well, in fact, i don't see you at all.
just was trying to give you advise on how to approach people in your attempt to "patronize" them,don't take it personal, or just take it, i don't care.
Yalla!
I will use X,Y and Z next time.
Olive how can religion be blamed when people are not following it correctly?
YCHikal,
Nobody was saying that they kidnapped the kids because there were Christians! Where did you get this idea from?
On the other hand it’s true that people have often associated terrorism with Muslims. You know why? Because (maybe just by coincidence) most of the major terrorist attacks are done by people who entitle themselves as Muslims.
As for your comment "To judge a religion you have to go to the source of the 3 main religions", what makes these 3 religions so special in relation to others? All religions are created equally!
(you had a hidden agenda right? i think you shot yourself on the photo as usual happens to disguised preachers)
LOL :-P neither did i....but didn't realise that was so heinous a crime :-D he he!
Going to church no more makes you a Christian than standing in a garage makes you a car. ~ Garrison Keillor
I guess he thinks we're very judgmental about characters from Charles Dickens novels Svelte. Never did like that Oliver Twist.
"We submit to the majority because we have to. But we are not compelled to call our attitude of subjection a posture of respect." Ambrose Bierce
so why did u say olive and i discussed about misers???
Going to church no more makes you a Christian than standing in a garage makes you a car. ~ Garrison Keillor
proves most of this stuff...........
We can speak about any thing, I gave it only as example.
Misers? I didn't realize Scrooge McDuck was in town? :P
"We submit to the majority because we have to. But we are not compelled to call our attitude of subjection a posture of respect." Ambrose Bierce
who talked about misers? :-o duh!
Going to church no more makes you a Christian than standing in a garage makes you a car. ~ Garrison Keillor
because I will gain nothing if Insult you, but If I tell you good things then you may get benefit and others right?
See phoenix2009 here and in other places there are some people who think that if people are speaking about some one then they are speaking about him.
For example Olive speaking with Saggi about one miser person and there was a person nearby listening, the person might think they are speaking about him.
Now imagine that this person is really miser what he might do? He might say bad words or do other things, but if this person is not miser and confident then he will not care about Olive and Saggi are saying because he knows his self very well.
and I am sorry for those people who easily judge other people irrespective of color, race or religion....
phoenix2009 I expressed my opinion and my conclusion which could be right or wrong and obviously you thought that my opinion is true 100 %.
Now tell me if I say my opinion does this mean it is right 100%
This the truth phoenix2009 some people do not know every thing about them selves and that is why there are things they do not have a choice in it.
Why are you defending Olive?
I think Olive can reply.
straight arrow, stop judging people. what's the "do not know about yourself" thing???? so you know about himself more than himself???????????
Yalla!
please go through it and tell me what do you think.
Olive this your point of view and again I repeat this kind of point of view shows that there is something you do not know about your self.
But it is ok do not worry.
I also think that many people do understand them sleves correctly and I might be one of them.
judge people for who they are.
if a hindu or sikh is doing all what another muslim thinks are islam's teachings(except for the technical practices of praying of course) does this make him muslim?
if i go to the "west wall" and stand there and pray to my own god, does this make me a jew?
by S Saggi:Going to church no more makes you a Christian than standing in a garage makes you a car. ~ Garrison Kei
Judge peolpe for who they are, and judge religions for what you read.
Yalla!
MODS please move this thread to the Religious section.
Going to church no more makes you a Christian than standing in a garage makes you a car. ~ Garrison Keillor
Yes I do judge religion by it's followers. Religion attracts a certain mindset of people, just like the military. I judge a military by it's soldiers, why not a religion by its followers.
As for the Christian missionaries, my opinion of Baptists is that they usually have their "God loving" heads so far up their own ass they tend to forget the actuality of the world around them. I blame the "kidnapping" on the sheer stupidity of these people. They thought they were doing "God's work" but couldn't be bothered to fill out man's paperwork.
"We submit to the majority because we have to. But we are not compelled to call our attitude of subjection a posture of respect." Ambrose Bierce
If there is a chemistry book which says to get HCL you should add NaCL and water, but people are adding iron and water and they say we do not get HCL does this mean chemistry is wrong? Or people are people are doing it wrong?
Chemistry can not be wrong because may people added NaCL and Water and they got HCL.
here are some things which is good reply to who say religions are source of war
2. Islam Prohibits Violence and Aggression, and stands for Peace and Justice.
Islam clearly prohibits all kinds and forms of aggression and violence against anyone, except in self-defense. Islam is a practical religion, meant to be implemented in every aspect of our life. Therefore, it realizes the fact that a person who commits aggression and violence against others will not cease these actions unless they are deterred by similar actions taken against them.
Islam also places very high importance on justice, and allows for aggressors and unjust people be punished accordingly, unless they repent before they are brought to justice. At the same time, Islam encourages people to forgive those who have wronged them whenever possible.
Evidence of these ideals can be found in the Holy Qur'an, which is the word of God revealed to the messenger of God, Mohammad peace be upon him. It can also be found in the Hadeeth, the sayings of Mohammad peace be upon him, and in his teachings to Muslims. A few examples of this are shown below from the Holy Qur'an:
"Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, and do not transgress; for Allah loveth not transgressors." (Surah 2, Verse 190).
"But if they cease (fighting you), Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." (Surah 2, Verse 192).
"But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah: for He is the One that Heareth and Knoweth (all things)." (Surah 8, Verse 61).
"The prohibited month, for the prohibited month, and so for all things prohibited, there is the law of equality. If then any one transgresses the prohibition against you, transgress ye likewise against him. But fear Allah, and know that Allah is with those who restrain themselves." (Surah 2, Verse 194).
" ... and let not the hatred of some people in (once) shutting you out of the Sacred Mosque lead you to transgression (and hostility on your part). Help ye one another in righteousness and piety, but help ye not one another in sin and rancour: fear Allah: for Allah is strict in punishment." (Surah 5, Verse 2).
"Nor can Goodness and Evil be equal. Repel (Evil) with what is better: then will he between whom and thee was hatred become as it were thy friend and intimate!" (Surah 41, Verse 34).
"O ye who believe! stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for Allah can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest ye swerve, and if ye distort (justice) or decline to do justice, verily Allah is well-acquainted with all that ye do." (Surah 4, Verse 135).
"God advocates justice, charity, and regarding the relatives. And He forbids evil, vice, and transgression. He enlightens you, that you may take heed." (Surah 16, Verse 90).
"And if ye do punish them, punish them no worse than they punished you: but if ye show patience, that is indeed the best (course) for those who are patient." (Surah 16, Verse 126).
for the furthere explaination of the above versus please visit:
http://www.al-islami.com/islam/religion_of_peace.php?p=2
You judge a religion by its followers right.
The Baptists who tried to kidnap the orphans in Haiti showed the face of their way of life. This is generally what the Christian missionaries do in the poverty stricken parts of the world.
So if they don't obviously Islam and those who teach it aren't teaching it properly, so again you can blame it on the religion.
"We submit to the majority because we have to. But we are not compelled to call our attitude of subjection a posture of respect." Ambrose Bierce
These people do not understand Islam correctly
Please see the web site below guys
http://www.al-islami.com/islam/religion_of_peace.php?p=4
This is page 4 please see pages 1 to 7
To he who searches for wisdom. If you are still you will know what is revealed of God to you. Being still is not easy but this is how the truth of God is recogized and the story of Christ is the revelation of God.
Religion is not simply a book. Book's don't say you have to do what I tell you or else you go to hell. If that was the case everyone who was unable to follow the Atkins diet would be going to hell. Religion, especially Islam, professes to be a complete way of life, and we see that the people who follow this are committing suicide bombings in it's name and killing people in it's name. So yes you can blame the religion for its followers behaviour.
"We submit to the majority because we have to. But we are not compelled to call our attitude of subjection a posture of respect." Ambrose Bierce
and the thread grows and grows and grows..... :-D
Going to church no more makes you a Christian than standing in a garage makes you a car. ~ Garrison Keillor
who judges religion by its followers has some understanding but not full.
To be fair you must have a clear understanding before judging.
Now if a book is good and the majority is doing things wrongly does this mean that the book is bad?
We are the people who can make use of this book in the best way?
Some people were told by their parents that religions are source of wars and problems and killing.
My question to them is that can Islam for example be a source of killing and there is a statement in the holy Quran which means that if you have saved one life it is like if you have saved the whole humanity and if you have killed one life it is like if you have killed the whole humanity?
Let us say that there is a very good book teaching the parents how deal with their children correctly and happily with hitting their children, and then you see parents who used this book beating their children badly, is it the book mistake?
A good teacher is there and very nice with all students and suddenly one or two students became violent, is it the teacher responsibility?
A good school is 600 students and 15 students left the school for their bad behaviour does this mean that the school is bad?
I agree that if a class has a big rate of failures then we can say that the teachers is bad, but the school has more than one teacher does this mean that the school is bad because of one teacher or two?
LOL gurl!!!well-said! :-D hahaha!
Going to church no more makes you a Christian than standing in a garage makes you a car. ~ Garrison Keillor
i feel anybody who creates a huge hue and cry over religion does not have full faith in what they follow...like say,u walk up to a person talking on the phone and tell him "hey you,i think u can't talk...u're just dumb!"....what would be natural reaction?would he argue back?would he slap u?NO....the person would just stare at you as if u're some nut just escaped out of a mental asylum,feel pity for you and then carry on talking.
people who follow faiths with a strong base and which do not claim to follow books that seem to have been sent from God thru fax don't go below their dignity and argue with people over silly issues.
personally,i respect all faiths.but i never chide anybody for their beliefs.shows my dignity i reckon.can't expect the whole world to be that way.it has to have some ignorant people too so that people like me appear different :-)
Going to church no more makes you a Christian than standing in a garage makes you a car. ~ Garrison Keillor
Of course you should judge religions by its followers. If a particular class in school has high rates of failure you'd blame the teacher wouldn't you?
"We submit to the majority because we have to. But we are not compelled to call our attitude of subjection a posture of respect." Ambrose Bierce
which might help many of you for better understanding
The post is called Many points in common
that the purpose of any religion is to make people better and respect each other.
No benefit if some one is Muslim and he/she is a bad person, same if Christian or Jews.
Here is a nice story happened in Iraq
Iraqis Shocked as Atheism Creeps in
By Afif Sarhan, IOL Correspondent
Image
Many are blaming the crisis on the war and its repercussions.
BAGHDAD – Although their number remains insignificant and most of them hid their identity, the fact that some people are leaving Islam and becoming atheists is a troubling news in conservative Iraq.
“I was surprised a couple of weeks ago when my son told me that his colleague at college told him that his father had become an atheist,” Sheik Abdul-Rassoul al-Rabia’a, a religion teacher at Baghdad University, told IslamOnline.net.
Not only did the father abandon his Muslim faith, he wanted his son to follow in his footsteps.
“I suggested to my son bringing his friend home and talked with him that despite his father’s thinking, he should continue to follow his Muslim heart and never deny his God,” al-Rabia’a said.
Linking that to the non-stop violence plaguing the country since the 2003 US invasion, some Iraqis are becoming atheists.
Most of them have had personal incidents involving either themselves or close relatives.
“Iraq is a land without God or any other kind of major protective superior form,” claims one atheist who declined to be named fearing reprisal.
“We have been forgotten and it is better to think only rationally than emotionally. I left behind my old beliefs because it is the only way to protect my children from any harm that God isn’t being able to do.”
Yasser (not his real name) is grouping up with others who have also renounced their faiths.
“When we first decided to organise ourselves, we were only eight people,” he told IOL.
“And after seven months, our number has reached to 34 but many other groups are being formed countrywide according to my contacts in northern and southern Iraq.
“We believe that today in Iraq, there are at least 220 atheists linked to the groups nationwide.”
Caro (not his real name), 41, also claims their numbers are on the rise.
“Each day we are having more followers and maybe one day we will be able to have our own centre where we will be able to discuss our ideas and nature creation.”
Alien
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Iraq in Focus (Special Page)
Iraqis say atheism is just so alien to conservative Iraq.
“If a westerner told me that he doesn’t believe in God, I would keep my mouth shut and never discuss it with him,” says Abdul-Rassoul al-Rabia’a.
“But when I hear that a born Muslim adopted atheism, I feel strong enough to help him find the true path.”
He believes the trend is becoming common in many regions in Iraq.
“No one is guiltier than the Americans who brought such ideas to Iraqis.”
Sara Waleed, 36, religion teacher at a primary school in Baghdad, says sometimes children ask her about atheism and say they heard the word from someone in the family who had become an atheist.
“Our kids today are different from before. They are aware of everything and are growing fast,” she told IOL.
“When I hear this I try to give a lesson that reinforces Islam so that the kids would not forget their origin.”
Yasser recognizes that what he and his friends are doing is alien to the conservative Iraqi society.
“It might be stranger for many people that a man who was raised in a very close Muslim tradition goes against his family and personal beliefs and create a group that doesn’t believe in a major creator.”
He blamed this on the war and its repercussions.
“Violence, religious differences, deaths, hunger, displacement and many other issues made me ask myself where God is,” he said.
Iraq fell into a bloody cycle of violence following the 2003 US invasion, leaving hundreds of thousands killed and maimed.
“I tried to find God during the last years,” says Yasser.
“I realised that he isn’t looking after us and instead we are moving ourselves according to the human nature and not an abstract force.”
But Waleed, the teacher, insists this is no reason to abandon one’s religion.
“I lost two brothers during the war and didn’t stop believing but instead my faith became stronger,” she said.
"I turned to Islam for my personal spiritual comfort."
Read more: http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?c=Article_C&cid=1254573498385&pagename=Zone-English-News/NWELayout#ixzz0eaXvg2WY
YCHikal . yours is the best , rest are all waste. you ok and happy now?. enjoy your life.
mmyke- you are damn right my dear, I wish the whole world does it. huh
Jon My problem is with every individual who goes around saying that his religion is the best and others are on a wrong path.
I don't care whether a person is Muslim, Christian, Hindu, Jew, Sikh, Buddhist or Jain or any other faith but it really pisses me off when I read or hear someone say that I am going to hell or someone is going to hell just because he doesn't have the same set of beliefs as him...
**** Aal Izz Well****
lol YCHikal you amuse me.. You say these 3 are the true religions because they are from God.. Now who told you that, a human right so you are just believing the word of a man... Or did God come directly to you and said I am starting these 3 religions in my name...
**** Aal Izz Well****
came from one God.
People interpetation made these contradictions.
See Christianity, Islam, Jews Religion, all ask to believe in one God, the day of judgement, good behavior and treatment, and the prophets of God.
i find it funny that when those religions who are supposedly coming from one source ( God ) contradict!
and eye for an eye VS ( who slaps you on your left side, give him your right one )
Sorry for the poor translation, but how can one God sends 2 profits that, acknowledged each other, who happened to have 2 contradictory statements, one asking for retaliation and other asking for forgiveness...
This is one of MANY. There is a glitch in the system people ! hehe
anyone with any explanation to these contradictions?
H
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you know that you are saying this for some other reason....don't you?
whyy even bother with this?
Why is it that we have enough religion in the world to incite wars, but we dont have enough religionto instill tolerance. Is your make believe deity stronger than my make believe deity. All religions are based on BLIND FAITH with no hard evidence to prove that any of the fables associated with them are true and ever existed. Please, prove me wrong.
Some people were told by their parents that religions are source of wars and problems and killing.
My question to them is that can Islam for example be a source of killing and there is a statement in the holy Quran which means that if you have saved one life it is like if you have saved the whole humanity and if you have killed one life it is like if you have killed the whole humanity?
Let us say that there is a very good book teaching the parents how deal with their children correctly and happily with hitting their children, and then you see parents who used this book beating their children badly, is it the book mistake?
A good teacher is there and very nice with all students and suddenly one or two students became violent, is it the teacher responsibility?
A good school is 600 students and 15 students left the school for their bad behaviour does this mean that the school is bad?
banned religion and it was probably the best thing ever done,,,,,
the problem is defining what is right/wrong, good/bad, etc. Easy for people with common sense and education but hard for those who can't see beyond their nose
if i were a dictator, i would shut down all religious institutions and force education on all..
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If language did change since then, meanings of words & phrases changed as well. Written guidelines and rules must reflect the present.
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you are very arrogant about your religion,,,,,and narrow minded,,I suppose both are the same...
you should not dispose of the other 1/2 of the human race who practice their faiths which do not originate in the Middle East.
I don't know why people take religion so seriously. All contemporary religions like Buddhism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism etc. are 2000-3000 years old while human beings have been here for millions of years! My point is people have survived without these religions for so many years in the past & its not as if they were nothing without them. I think as long as you are not hurting anyone & you are not doing anything illegal, you are leading a good life. You don't need religious teachers to tell you that. Just my thoughts.
Should you wish to continue in discussing Islam and Quran, bro i would suggest you to raise another thread in the religous forum...like you raised another thread apart from Haiti thread...
This is pretty much of a mix now and does not serve either of the two purposes..No offense
Peace
you started by mentioning the Haiti event and yet you miss the thread regarding the court ruling on a woman divorced by her husband and accused of adultery! Does it mean you are talking about the character of one religion only?
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"Why is my PM access blocked?"
In further explaination of this verse: “Those who believe (in the Qur’an) and those who follow the Jewish (Scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians, and who believe in Allah and the last day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve” [Qur'an 2:62].
I offer this in order to leave no room for misunderstanding-
And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers. [3:85].
This verse according to most scholars abrogates the previous verse since the first verse listed is referring to the people before Islam was revealed. The key here is a firm belief in monotheism which Jews and Christians originally believed in. This is unto itself a very lengthy discussion and one I am willing to elaborate on for the truly interested people who want to know the truth with the intention of accepting it.
If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute [5:48].
Religion is man-made. for you to judge people because they are followers of a certain religion is totally unreasonable.
YCHikal - what do you mean they are the only religion from God? what about the others? will they be condemned to hell just because they do not follow these mentioned religion?
..ReaLitY haS a WaY oF snEaKinG uP aNd biTinG us iN tHe aSS..
dude,
Not everything your mom and dad told you when you were young is correct!
What if Hindus are right and everyone you know is wrong?
so called God-profit religions are a minority compared to others that you think are bull.. What about life on other planets? what about all those UN ANSWERED questions around you? Oh True God wants to trick us and is playing a mental game with us by keeping everything away from us till the last day!
How can ANY human with minimum logic accept all this hehehe.. I totally respect Any religion out there but main thing is "Faith". Having faith in a rock can sometimes make you a good person that does not hurt an animal or even a tree...
H
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If language did change since then, meanings of words & phrases changed as well. Written guidelines and rules must reflect the present.
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in a way. And the way you defend or explain about Quran, perfect to you, of course you are a Muslim.
A simple question, does Quran promote equal rights for your perceived believers and non-believers if we are talking about practicing one's belief?
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"Why is my PM access blocked?"
I only discussed the 3 main religions Islam, Christianity and Judaism because they are the only 3 religions from God. The Torah, the Bible and the Quran were the only divinely revealed books and all originally spoke about monotheism. Through the years things changed as corrupt PEOPLE decided to re-write the Torah and the Bible in an effort to meet their personal or political agendas. The Quran was however the last revealed book from Allah and was protected until the end of time. Why would I speak about the OTHER "religions" when they are completely man made and far fetched. How could someone possible believe in worshipping creation (rocks, statues, etc...)instead of the creator? Freedom of religion, freedom of speech. Its not for us as a creation to rewrite history or make it up as we go along. As for someone who stated they don't even believe in God then 1. why do you defend this topic from the beginning and 2. who then do you think created you and ALLOWS you to continue your existance in this Earth? You should be terrified to even think such a thing. May Allah guide you as true guidance is only from him.
By the way I didn't mean for this to be so much a religious discussion as a politically correct one in stating we shouldn't judge people and assume them to be good by their religion nor judge a religion by its followers so thats why it wasnt posted on the religious thread. I do however feel the need to respond to such a comment.
The Holy Qur’an clearly promises the Lord’s reward to all those who believe and conduct their lives based on the three principals: “Those who believe (in the Qur’an) and those who follow the Jewish (Scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians, and who believe in Allah and the last day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve” [Qur'an 2:62].
Here is some information about following the practices of ones ancestors according to Islam:
A common suspicion of past and contemporary people is that they have inherited these practices from their ancestors. About them, Allah the Almighty said:
Just in the same way, whenever We sent a warner (i.e. a messenger who calls to the worship of Allah the Almighty) before you to any people, the wealthy ones among them said, "We found our fathers following a certain religion, and we will certainly follow in their footsteps." [43:23]
Those who cannot produce any proof for their plea resort to this type of invalid argument. That, of course, is reasonable. How can they be sure that their ancestors were right? Then again, why should they blindly follow their ancestors' footsteps? Allah the Almighty said, "When it is said to them, follow what Allah has revealed, they say, No! We shall follow the way of our fathers. What! Even though their fathers were void of wisdom and guidance?" [5:104] Also, "Even if their fathers knew nothing and were astray?" [2:170] To follow the footsteps of fathers is commendable if they were on the right path. Concerning Joseph (peace be upon him), Allah the Almighty said: "And I follow the ways of my fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob: Never could we attribute any partners whatsoever to Allah; that comes of the grace of Allah to us and to mankind, yet most men are ungrateful." [12:38] Allah also said, "And those who believe and whose families follow them in faith, to them shall We join their families." [52:21]
Suspicion was always raised by people in answer to the call of Prophets. The people replied to the call of Noah (peace be upon him), as we notice in the Holy Quran, "We sent Noah to his people, he said, "O my people worship Allah, you have no other god but Him. Will you not fear Him?" The unbelievers among his people said, "He is no more than a man like yourselves; his wish is to assert his superiority over you. If Allah had wished to send messengers, He could have sent down angels. Never did we hear such a thing as he says among our ancestors of old." [23:23-4]
The unbelievers wanted to take the practice of their ancestors against the commands of Allah which were presented to them by their Prophets (peace be upon them). As Allah the Almighty stated in the Holy Quran: The people of Saleh said, "Do you forbid us to worship of what our fathers worshipped?" [11:62]
The people of Shu`aib said, as Allah pointed out in the Holy Quran: "Does your religion of prayers command you that we leave whatever our forefathers used to worship?" [11:87] The people of Abraham, after they were silenced by argument, said, as stated in the Holy Quran, "...We worship idols and we remain constantly in attendance on them. (Abraham) said, "Do they listen to you when you call on them or they do you good or harm?" They said, "Nay, but we found our fathers doing so."" [26:70-4] Pharaoh said to Moses, as Allah demonstrated in the Holy Quran, "...What then is the condition of previous generations." [20:51]. Who were before you and did the same thing by following the footprints of their parents. Look what happened to them. Thus unbelievers, have been opposing the truth with weak and foolish arguments.
from people who take time to check their spelling
:)
Of course you can judge a religion by its followers,,,,
that is the manifestation of what is truly being taught and conveyed by that religion to its followers.
To think otherwise is silly.
Hindus are completely different from pagans, who are different from the Muslims, who are different from the Jews, who are different from North American Indians who believe in the Great Spirit, who are different from the Catolics etc. etc.
get real.
good move by apologising..
Yes people do get hurt..thnx
you should always judge a book by it's cover.
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A lot of lovemaking can unblock a stuffy nose! Dr. Choc
I am really sorry if my comments hurt anyone
No haas, I strongly disagree with you. I think religion should be something one decides by personal choice. I do not claim my religion to be something extraordinary or the only religion nor do I believe any other religion to be the same.
So stop making fun of other religion. Better to stay on the topic if we are to make comments.
Actually I don't haas.. I actually don't believe in any God but I don't go around making fun of people who do believe in it.
**** Aal Izz Well****
"SOME PEOPLE NEVER CHANGE" that means you agree with me
religion bashing Thread...
Let follow what gives you peace of Mind and make you a better human being!
Peace
Yes haas, all of them definitely are god. Why should you have problem with it?
Huh.....some people never change.
I think Mods should now shift this to religious forum as well.
Ok haas if you want to follow that kind of discussion then is it true that one man one day said I am the messenger of God and all of you believed his story???
**** Aal Izz Well****
you mean "RAT,SNAKE,MONKEY,STONE etc" are GOD
You judged yourself that there are only 3 religions in this world then what about the Hindus, Sikhs, Jains, Buddhists and then you are asking others not to be Judgemental. Is Hypocrite the appropriate word for you?
**** Aal Izz Well****
but absolutely wrong ways to judge a Religion by its Followers!
Peace