Lebanon and Israel again (but please no swearing or bad language, intelligent adults only)
Once again I despair at the way that the discussion about the current terrible situation in Lebanon has deteriorated on one of our threads.
I love Lebanon having spent considerable time there but I am neither Muslim nor Jewish, and would only like to post some relevant background to the crisis for people to discuss.
Firstly, the origin of the crisis is frequently cited here in the UK as being due to the capture of two Israeli soldiers. A letter written by Chomsky and Harold Pinter and seconded by two Nobel Peace prize winners points out that this is not the case. In fact this action was taken as a reaction to the capture, by Israel, of two Palestinian civilian, one a doctor, who had, following the oath of his profession, been treating people the Israelis did not like. If anyone reads Turkish there are full details of this in the Turkist press, as well as some grudging acceptance that it is indeed true by UK broad sheets.
Secondly to wage a war on a country because you believe it is supporting terrorists and therefore kill numerous civilian in the process of fighting that terrorist paints a difficult scenario. Consider a situation where a man with a gun holds a baby as a hostage in front of him. What do police do? Shoot the baby and the hostage or hold fire and save the baby? Or kill everyone in the restaurant including the baby just in case there are more terrorists?
What do you do when people then want to send aid to the injured people? Tell them no?
It seems that fighting an organisation that is branded as terrorist (and I do not intend to get into a debate about that here) is an excuse for a so-called advanced democracy to completely ignore the rules of conduct that should accompany any such engagement. The Lebanese are the losers. In Keeping with Qatar I, personally support the Lebanese government's right to demand the evacuation of an invading army (who seem to be behaving contrary to every International Law that governs engagement that I can think of) and to replace that foreign army with its own (especially given the history of occupation and the land mines which I myself have seen scattered like firecrackers over a region that many people call home).
L
i just hope good sense prevails and this insane war stops, noone is winning this war and the innocent are suffering. i am moved by the sight of children dying in this crossfire. i am no arab but i sincirely pray that this ends and ends fast .violence is not the answer for any thing.
Yes exactly, a pleasure chatting with you, going to pack now, we are flying to Doha in just over a week! Wish me luck!
Israel's behaviour is disgusting, I agree with you there. The problem is that the international community will never stop them because they are afraid of looking Anti-Semetic, and that it will look like they are supporting a country that "supports" or "allows" a terrorist organization within its borders. International diplomacy is a bitch, to put it mildly, and its always the innocent ones who pay for it.
Yes, I agree DG.
I think one of the key issues is the US support of terrorism when it suits them. There seem to be similiar double standadrs when it comes to diplomatic relation with countries that have democracy or not (i.e. Cuba, Iran, etc etc are problematic because they are not democracies, but Saudi and Qatar, because they have lots of oil are not). I think one problem is the US attempt to homogenise different societies so that it reflects the current values they are trying to promote. Hopefully, with a change of administration, this might at least diminish.
I also have to concede your pount about action and reaction, but I do belive that at times the only way out of chaos is through to diplomacy. I would like to stress that Israel has been blatantly spectacular at ignoring UN resolutions it agreed to, and to conceeding territory it was meant to hand over to satisfy these. For a country the UK (and I hate the Blair administration!) and US want to call an ally it seems pretty bad behaviour.
L
If the other thread deteriorated it was because Ithaka made some pretty juvenille comments on an issue that he obviously know's nothing about, which was bound to offend and upset people. The current Lebanon/Israel is a touchy topic, no matter how you put it.
I don't pretend to be an expert, I am most certainly not, but I have studied the Israel/Arab situation a couple of times in university. So I will say this. Keep in mind that I am not supporting either the Israeli government or the Hezbollah.
Israel has never ever made a secret of the fact that any perceived slight to their soverignty would result in the maximum use of force. They have always maintained this, and they have always reacted according to it. This is a result of post Haloucaust thinking, and the result of being surrounded by people who want them dead. The Hezbollah know this and acted knowing what the result would be. The Palestinians do the same thing.
Whether this is right or wrong is a touchy subject. They do have the right to defend themselves, but do they have the right to kill innocent civilians to do it?
Keep in mind that innocent civilians are killed in every war, regardless of who is the antagonist and who the victim. That is war, it is messy, dirty and bloody. In my opinion war is never the answer.
Also what you said about what actually caused the war is somewhat of a moot point. Every action taken by Israel or Hezbollah or Hamas is a reaction to another action to another reaction to another action and henceforth down the line for the last 3000 years.
Also Israel is only taking its cue from the United States. Look at Afghanistan it is the same situation, what right did the US have to go in there and destroy a soverign government (or Iraq for that matter)even if it was one they disagreed with? I disagree with the Bush administration, does that mean I have the right to invade the US and destroy it? I believe the US supports teorrism (all the IRA's money comes from Boston and New York after all) does that mean I have a right to wage war against the entire country to rid it of those terrorist cells?
Rules of Engagement and Rules of Conduct in war are just slips of paper and attempts to bring order from chaos. War is war, there are no rules, people get hurt. It sucks, but it's a fact of life.
Israel is doing what it believes to be the right thing, as is Lebanon as is Hezbollah. Eventually nations that are not involved in this will think of someway to undermine the soverignty of both countries and impose a ceasefire or some agreement. Which will probably result in more bloodshed and chaos. It's a nasty circle, but its how international diplomacy works.