World moving towards banning death penalty -
I personaly agree with the Death Penalty.. What say you ?
Five nations were responsible for almost all the state executions carried out in the past year. A total of 137 countries have abolished the death penalty in law or practice, while 60 countries retain its use, usually for people convicted of murder.
There were at least 1,252 known executions in 24 countries during 2007. Of all the executions in 2007, 88% took place in China, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and the US.
By the end of 2007, 91 countries had abolished the death penalty for all crimes and three more (Albania, the Cook Islands and Rwanda) have since joined them, according to Reprieve, which represents death row prisoners around the world.
"The reality is that despite the progress that has been made over the last 18 months, there are still thousands of people being executed every year around the world," said Clive Stafford Smith, the director of Reprieve.
"I have witnessed the barbarity of this sentence in person, having been present at the execution of four of my clients and can say that one execution is too many. We cannot rest until capital punishment becomes little more than an embarrassing chapter in our history."
In Europe, only Belarus retains capital punishment. Countries with the death penalty cannot join the EU.
The US is the only country in the Americas to have carried out any executions since 2003. Its 53 executions in 2006 represented the lowest annual total for a decade, and death sentences continue to drop from a peak in the mid-1990s.
"Asia leads the way globally as the continent that carries out the most executions," said the Amnesty International UK director, Kate Allen.
"The number of executions carried out by China last year makes them the world's number one executioner. This year we have seen a noticeable increase in the use of the death penalty in Japan. Executions in that country are typically shrouded in secrecy. And in Pakistan there are approximately 7,500 people, including children, on death row … We call on Asia's state leaders to establish a moratorium on executions with a view to abolish the death penalty."
In some areas with a long tradition of executions, such as central Asia, there is a clear move towards abolition. Recently, Kyrgyzstan abolished the death penalty for ordinary crimes, Kazakhstan has had a moratorium on executions since 2003 and Tajikistan has had moratoriums on executions and death sentences since 2004.
In Africa, only six countries carried out executions in 2006. Last year the high court in Malawi declared the mandatory death penalty unconstitutional and Rwanda abolished it. Burundi, Gabon and Mali are taking steps towards abolition.
In seven countries the death penalty is applied for consensual sexual acts between adults of the same sex: Iran, Mauritania, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, the United Arab Emirates, Yemen and parts of Nigeria.
In 2007, Saudi Arabia executed at least 143 people, including children and three women. This year's has already reached 58.
Pakistan retains the death penalty for 26 offences including murder, blasphemy, arms trading, drug trafficking, armed robbery, stripping a woman of her clothes in public, extramarital sex and rape. Yemen retains it for a variety of offences, among them endangering transport and communications, apostasy, robbery, prostitution and adultery.
Reports of executions in 2007
China: 470+
Iran: 317+
Saudi Arabia: 143+
Pakistan: 135+
US: 42
Iraq: 33+
Vietnam: 25+
Yemen: 15+
Afghanistan: 15
Libya: 9+
and your erudition. Excellent arguments and a very good thread.
This is what QL is all about.
Ah, we agree on the tire manufacturers :-) I HAVE taken 2 advanced driving courses as well as a defensive driving course, so I should be ok :)
I also agree with you on what you said about the brother defending family "honor" although I can not find any reference to it being "culturally acceptable" in any culture. Although this is not a death penalty issue.
I think it is good that people have different opinions on this issue though. If there were no opponents to the death penalty, all checks and balances would disappear and we would be in big trouble.
I will agree to disagree with you on this issue but hope to have some more interesting conversations with you in future :-)
I will not, Shamiri. But I know such cases where brothers together with some friends rape the sister because in the brother's view she did something against the "honor" of the family.
And I urge you not to trust the tire manufacturers. Even at Formula 1 races tires explode. The drivers there, however, are professional enough to cope with it. You should also train such instances, if not for the sake of others, then for your own sake.
I dont want to distinguish between intentional and not knowing. YOU brought up not knowing. What I said was distinguish between intentional and ACCIDENTAL life taking i.e I am driving at 80 km/h (as is the law) and my front tire burst, causing my car to spin out of control. Should I be executed? I don't think so. Some might argue.
As to the cultural comment: Name me ONE culture where rape and murder is culturally acceptable.
I like this idea, shamiri. Yes, you should tell everybody who applies for a license that he might be a killer and that he will be held responsible in case it happens!
I don't know how you want to discriminate between "intentional" or "not knowing". The result is the same. Do you think the 8 men raping a 10 year old girl do it "intentionally"? You will have a hard time to prove it. Maybe they'll say it's a cultural thing. Maybe they think it's their right.
For that matter, you should oppose the manufacturing of cars, as they are murder weapons. No knives, screw drivers, chemicals etc etc etc ... see where this is leading?
But surely you should then be against people being granted licenses just as strongly as you are against the death penalty, as these people are just murderers waiting to be exposed?
I KNOW you're against the death penalty. And you know I am FOR the death penalty (where intentional life taking is proven, of course).
So where does the Not knowing is as bad as doing something intentionally. part come in?
I think I might be misunderstanding your last post.
Now I will laugh at you, shamiri. If you pass the driving test in Doha there is no proof that you can drive.
Actually I am against the Death Penalty. But if you want it for some cases then you have to be consistent. Not knowing is as bad as doing something intentionally. It is no excuse. There is no excuse either if you jump from the Golden Gate Bridge and die because you didn't know how high it is.
OK now I WILL laugh at you. If the driver is licensed then he CAN drive. Or at least by any accepted norm of modern society.
If you disagree with that then you will have to take up the cause of licensing, not the cause of death penalty.
Ho do you distinguish between intentional life taking and accidental then? Or does it not matter to you?
Good, shamiri, a drunk driver breaks a law. The result is a dead pedestrian. Death penalty. A driver who can't drive breaks a law, too. Death penalty. Consistent.
But it will mean your country will be over run by the first tin pot country to NOT agree with these rules
first you just mention :Death penalty for every driver who killed a pedestrian
Which I disagree with. When we talk about DRUNK drivers though, I agree
And furthermore, a soldier who decides to become a soldier, decides to become a professional killer. The death penalty is adequate!
I don't think that a driver who is drunk and kills a pedestrian creates an accident. He makes a deadly mistake. And he should pay for it with his life.
Even though I wanted to laugh at this, I will give you a more logical response:
EVERYONE of the (except the soldiers) issues you mentioned are ACCIDENTAL deaths. What I was talking about is the intentional taking of a human life. Big difference. That's why there is a term called man slaughter.
As for soldiers, I am all for it. As long as both countries punish their soldiers equally, which is a bit childish to expect. Of course that would mean we have to execute whoever gave the order in the first place. Which means we would have no governments left. Not such a bad idea after all ;-)
Allright Shamiri, then let's be consequent. Death penalty for every soldier who killed an enemy. Death penalty for every driver who killed a pedestrian. Death penalty for every engineer who killed a worker because he miscalculated the stability of a construction. I am totally for that!
and prisoners should be used for research and save the lives of those poor animals......Nurse for President!
adey posted:
2) It does not work as a deterrent to murder, in fact it can make people more violent in avoiding capture, as they have nothing to lose. More Police are killed in States that have the Death Penalty - they are seen as part of 'state sanctioned murder' and fair game by criminals. It does not cut the murder rate of a country - it is counter productive
In reply:
Worse Than War
The UCA Report on Murder in South Africa reveals that according to the official statistics, in the 44 years from 1950 to 1993, there was an average of 7036 murders per year. This covered the turbulent strife of the apartheid years of warfare, conflict, terrorism, riots and repression.
However, in the first eight years (of peace) of the new democratic dispensation, under the ANC, an average of 24 206 murders were committed each year. However, if the Interpol statistics are accepted, then the murder rate in South Africa during the ANC years has averaged 47 882 per year.
When The Death Penalty Deterrent Is Removed
The report notes that the sharp exponential increase of violent crime, particularly murder, in South Africa, also coincides with the suspension of the death penalty in 1989 and its abolition in 1996.
South African convicts have a 94% recidivism rate (that is, 94% of all persons released after serving a sentence immediately become involved in crime again).
These are just some of the statistic. The death penalty is a complex sociological issue that cannot be debated as a single human rights issue. There are multiple factors that must be considered.
My question to anyone in favour of abolishment is this:
If your 10 year old daughter was raped and tortured for 6 hours by 8 men and then brutally murdered, would you seek the death penalty?
If your 75 year old father was beaten to death with a hammer, would you seek the death penalty?
If your 40 year old sister was burned with boiling water and an clothes iron till she died, would you seek the death penalty?
Sure, no justice system is fool proof. Mistakes will be made. If I was on the receiving end of a faulty death penalty I would be fighting as hard as anyone to have it abolished.
Unfortunately, statistics prove that abolishing the death sentence does NOT lower crime.
There will be a "sentence" this Sunday in Japan, brit. Formula 1.
I can go along with that , as long as the jury's decision is final, barring an appeal. If the appeal fails, then the sentence must be carried out..
Not really, brit. The problem is the "proof". I agree with you that a murderer, let's say, over 16 years, has to be punished accordingly. But, when is there "no doubt". That's all my concern.
I am in total agreement with you about Afghanistan..
However, I go back back to my original belief that murderers and rapists should not be "cared for" but done away with..
I think we'll have to agree to disagree..
The cost you mentioned, brit, honestly, are peanuts compared to the cost of stationing British soldiers in Afghanistan for no reason. If the British government cuts the expenditures on useless military projects I will be open for a discussion on the cost of "hosting" convicted murderers.
I'm sorry, but it costs on average about 1200 pounds a week to keep a prisinor in jail. I don't believe the victims get justice. I would vote for the death penalty for murder and rape...Not perhaps death by car accident
It's a "tough" stand, nadt. But I am with you.
MD,agree with you again i dont think we are in a position to take someones life, its up to god to do that when the times comes..
You are such an "innocent" guy, heero. I love you for that.
Usually, certain types of that social plots only targeted on major cases like a certain company corruption, mistreatment of employers and such, in which the company will pay 'underground' to cease foreclosure and headlines of the press.
But for murders, I doubt somebody will pay to save a guy the electric chair/lethal injection...
Also in the US, there's a thing called 'the jury', where any ordinary people who have no relation to the crime will be called upon by the Court to attend as a jury (which they really need to be absent upon work no matter how much you deny the call of duty) as a means of combining ordinary citizen's decision on the certain crime other than the judge...
"Everything in this book may be wrong." Illusions: The Adventures of The Reluctant Messiah by Richard Bach
You know, nadt, I see it from that point of view: "Thou shalt not kill". You probably find this sentence in the Torah, the Bible, and the Qur'an. And that applies to a state authority, as well. They are not exempt from the rules of God!
Agree with MD on this one, its not black and white in some cases..
heero, you also know very well that social "plots" can cause a judge to issue a faulty verdict. Even financial pressure can influence a jury's decision. If judges were all angels, I would have no objection towards the death penalty!
Unless a certain case is reopened and needs study and finds out that there're certain reasonable doubts about the crime through more investigation, the number of life sentence'll be reduced.
...unless you're talking about the JFK assassination...:-P
"Everything in this book may be wrong." Illusions: The Adventures of The Reluctant Messiah by Richard Bach
brit, I would not have any problem to kill the guy who kills my wife or daughter or friend before my eyes in an instant. But I would be doubtful if there is no proven evidence of the deed. Ask three people who witnessed a traffic accident. You will get three different versions of how it happened. That is the problem. "Everything is relative". I am pretty surprised that you "watched" beheading in Saudi Arabia. I considered you being a sensitive and thoughtful human being.
Perhaps a minor number of errors may occur..
Do you think its right to keep people on death row for years or the tax payer has to bear the cost of keeping them in prison for years, or the justice for the victim..
"Everything in this book may be wrong." Illusions: The Adventures of The Reluctant Messiah by Richard Bach
Back to the Stone Ages, with Super Nurse as president! Hurray!
Never mind justice errors, no smoke wi'out fire n all that! that'll teach them to get mixed up with the law!!
Yes!Yes! The victim can do the deed if they so wish...or the victims family could do it!!!Its the way forward without a doubt! Nurse For President!!
Never heard of "justice errors", brit? There is a whole literature about it.
gets my vote..
I have seen abeheading in saudi and belive me, it would make me think twice about committing a serious crime.
Also, we always talk about the criminal, but what about the rights of the victim. Do they not deserve retribution and closure?
the "fraudster" thing is beyond their comprehension. heero. They are helpless.
mmmm I know and they've got it right! All criminals should be taught a lesson they'll never forget...The Worlds too bloody soft!!
...but I'm not sure how they've dealt with the fraudster thing...
"Everything in this book may be wrong." Illusions: The Adventures of The Reluctant Messiah by Richard Bach
I've got an even simpler way 1) Murderers get killed the same way as they killed 2) Thieves/Burglars get their hands chopped off 3) Rapist and sex offenders get their bits removed by rusty blunt knife dipped in vinegar.......fraudsters and genuinely intelligent people that hack into banks etc deserve all their pickings just due to the thought having gone into it......there, must have missed someone out....
With the exception of the USA all countries listed are "developing" countries. That can only mean that abolition of the death penalty is an indication for the maturity of a country. The USA are a very immature country. I guess nobody opposes my opinion. It is very simple: a murderer is murdered by an authority. So the authority is as guilty. No authority was given the right to murder human beings. The only solution would be to define the term "human being". Is a person who murdered someone still to be considered a "human being"? If not, then he may be killed without sentiment. If "yes", the state commits the same crime it intends to punish.
I share Brit Expat view on Capital Punishment.
Cap Pun should be handed over for only the following:
Those unrepenting unremorseful rapists, serial killers, paedophiles and most definitely drug dealers and those in gangs who kill innocent people for fun to win battle of supremacy between different gangs and be seen as one not to mess around with....
but before handing sentence, the court must beyond reasonable doubt found the person guilty...
to some extent i like Adey's idea of forced qwork for life, but tell me where is that happening..all i see is criminals getting a good deal inside prisons, run their businesses from prison, get comfortable inside plus Human Rights activists on their side....
Also, I would disagree with all manners of capital punishment except decapitation which is the best, fastest and less painful punishment. This is the prescribed method in the Koran. Because when in a split second the head is separated from the body, the headless body does not have a brain to tell it to feel pain, nor does the brain have oxygenated blood to be able to think.
However the agony before the inflicting of the punishment is unavoidable in all cases which I guess is more harrowing than the actual physical pain.
OK Brit. Imagine that you are arrested in (for the sake of argument) KSA tomorrow for allegedly committing an offence punishable by death.
Do you imagine that you would receive a fair trial? Do you think a logical and provable defence would support your case and protect you? Dream on son...
...against the only way to deal with the real wrongdoers.
It's like letting the wrongdoers roam 'free' and continue doing their own dirty work.
Although life sentence seems effective in some other way, we still need a stronger punishment for the harsher wrongdoings. Multiple homicide and you're only given a life sentence? That seems unfair.
I'm against abolishing death penalty.
"Everything in this book may be wrong." Illusions: The Adventures of The Reluctant Messiah by Richard Bach
I'm against death penalty, i prefer life sentence forced work
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
any hint of being guilty get them hung drawn and quartered, let them be a lesson for other criminals!!........
I'm against death penalty although I've felt a lot of time some people would just be shot and killed or hung. I feel death is too easy a punishment and only God has the right to take a life. Agree with Adey.
I dream of a better tomorrow where Chickens can cross the Road without having their motives questioned - Unknown
for the following four reasons, though the first two are reason enough.
1) You can not discover a persons innocence and say sorry after the State has murdered them. That is the one reason why I could never support the Death Penalty.
2) It does not work as a deterrent to murder, in fact it can make people more violent in avoiding capture, as they have nothing to lose. More Police are killed in States that have the Death Penalty - they are seen as part of 'state sanctioned murder' and fair game by criminals. It does not cut the murder rate of a country - it is counter productive.
3) It gives the murderer a free pass, a quick end, no time to suffer, or even, make recompense.
4) It desensitizes the general public's view on life and it's sanctity.
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."