In Afghanistan a man is being prosecuted for switching from Islam to Christianity. He might receive the death sentence. I have seen numerous posts about the subject of free will in chosing religion. Is there really free will when it comes to religion? What are your views?
What have i been saying over and over and over again???
For crying out loud it was ONE "muslim" in one country.....Do u know how many countries we have in the world.Do u know how many muslims there are in the world............Your judging the entire muslim populus and stereo typing them because of what????100 ,500 muslimswho are terrorrists and say they represnt islam.....Islam the religion that u should look up and find out what it's about before passing judgement.....To know any religion without prejudice u should read the litreture(Bible ,Tora ,Quran).....don't pass judgement because of what u hear or/and see on the news...tha's just a glitzy speck of the truth......It's what sells news .
It is the same God for muslims and christians and jews...actually we believe that it's the same religion......As muslims we are require to beleive in all the prophets that came before Mohhamed(PBUH)...We believe in Adam,Noah,david,joseph,Ibrahim,Moses,jesus...all of them........we believe they were sent by the same God to give the same message(that explains the similarities)...their holy books were sent from god ..the only God ...the same God....they are a continuation of one another ............a constant reminder.
Each time people would drift away from god he would send a reminder...a messenger....some would return to the faith and others would persist..sometimes god would send more then one messenger at one given time , .lili.
I just want the religious right, christian or muslim, to leave each other alone.
Lili, if muslims don't need to force anyone to convert, why do Afgan muslim want to kill one pereson who left islam. Leave him alone, let him be what he wants to be. I have no problem with everyone converting to islam if they want to convert. I do have a problem with anyone telling me I have to be a christian, a muslim, a buddist, etc.
I have a problem with the Government having a state religion, any government, any religion. God gave man free-will to decide, let each person make their decision.
There are people in each religion who think they have the only answer to God, do we have a different God for muslims and christians? Just because I read holy books different than someone else, should I be killed?
When people quit killing people in the name of religion, we will be ready for God here on earth. It is not only different religions, it is different sects of the same religion.
So. I had my "confirmation" to christianity when I was 16. I was sure, I had thought very long and hard before my confirmation and was sure of the step I was taking. I wasn't forced into it.
Now...
If tomorrow I decide, after thinking again long and hard, that I made the wrong decision, that the "True" word of God is the one followed by muslims and I want to convert to Islam...I wouldn't be able to, because I must stick to my previous choice and I cannot change faith. So even if I believe with all my heart that Islam is the right religion for me, I cannot convert because I made my choice of religion twelve years ago?
Helloqatar is this a debate or a fight..........cool down ..
First of all i said that IF you choose a certain religion then u should think long and hard BEFORE entering into it because it isn't a game....if u believe it is the true religion ..whatever that is don't you think u should stick to it???
GIASI is right there is no death sentence, the punishment is left to the god u worship..............every action does have an equal & opposite reaction..laws of physics...U want to live without accountability ????
End result: choose u're faith and stick to it....w
WHATEVER IT IS.
You have alot of issues here ...I'll ask u .....if your a christian and u break the ten commandments...alot...does that still make u a christian .....
u do have non practicing christians as we have non practicing muslims...........Practice is one thing ...faith is another....People are different and they tend to mix and match.
Now this whole last sentence helloqatar is just way out there....Thousands of people convert TO islam daily...we don't need to force anyone.......lili.
I cannot say if what they did was right or wrong(the trail) but i can say that we do have freedom of worship in islam and examples are numerous from Quranic verse to historic text.......
.What did the prophet do to the people of Mecca(they worshiped a multitude of gods and idols) who used to abuse ,beat, throw animal remains on him while he prays and insult him on a daily basis until he was forced to immigrate to El Madina? He could have punished or even killed them all when he returned victorious, but he did nothing of the sort ....everyone co-exsisted peacefully......
How did islam deal with christians when they went to Egypt and Spain..????were churches destroyed or people killed?????they could have considering that it was common practice for conquerers to rape pilidge and plunder....but they did no such thing...Ask butterfly
The Quran specifically states that everybody has their own religion ...you have yours ..i have mine.....Freedom
I'm just sick of people blaming religion -any religion -for how a minority of self proclaimed followers act..............Am i supposed to judge the whole American population ,for example ,by how their goverment acts in the name of freedom and the American way of life...They dropped packages of food and medical aid on Afghanistan from one plane while bombing them with another...you eat ..u die??!!!?
I also want to say that the way muslims see death is not like the way most people see it......Death is only the begining for us............................................................................thankyou and god bless u!!!.lili.
Helloqatar. There is no written teaching that apostacy in islam is penalised by death. Quite the contrary, there are instances where apostates were left alone (during the time of the prophet). The examples cited by alot of muslims are situations where people were killed for other reasons (for murder, treason etc) the fact that they were apostates at the time was not the reason they were killed.
What you are saying is that a person should not change from a Christian to a Muslim because once he has chosen, he can't have second thoughts. OR is it OK to leave the Christian/Buddist/etc faiths and become Muslim but that it is not OK for someone to leave the Muslim faith.
You can't have it both ways, either people can change in either direction or once they join a religion, they can never change to another. Why would you want a person in your religion that doesn't want to be a Muslim, are you going to start forcing people to pray 5 times a day? What if you are a Muslim but eat pork, are you really not a Muslim? Can you be a Muslim and have a beer? Can I be a Muslim and decide to not practice the beliefs, is it OK aslong as I don't become something else?
If any religion has to threaten to kill someone to make them believe, it must not have much faith in being right. The only way to be a strong religion is to have people believe by choice, not theat!
Guys its not wether he is free or not, like i am muslim ok and i very mitkamesh b my relegion coz god choosed for me to be a muslim which am 100% proud of it, but some people specially nawadays how shalll i say it , they have this feeling inside them maybe coz their relgion or parents r very closed minded to them they think of turning to a christian coz therer life r different than ours,but i say one thing the one that goes out of his/her religion , he/she dont have one
in arabic :P elli byitla3 3an dino ma 2iloo din
and it depends on the country from other side
some countries r closed minded while other r opened minded
I think u misunderstood me butterfly ...i did say if he had cosen the religion freely .....if that was the case then no he cannot change his mind after a while..it's not like ordering lunch!!Becoming a Muslim (or a member of any religion )is not a decision you can take lightly..I'll continue later........ .lili.
I haven't said that they are stupid. I am just saying that education is a common problem for many muslim countries. Illiteracy percentages are high in countries such as Afghanistan, Pakistan, Indonesia etc.
That was in response to Lili's comment about how well educated muslims are. In Qatar, for example, education is very good. I am saying that in many muslim countries this is not the case.
In fact, i challenge anyone to give me evidence that islam preaches anything but "no compulsion in religion". Anyone who says that legitimate apostacy is punishable by death is probably an advocater of refusing education to women and not allowing them to socially interact like driving cars.
Yes, it may seem a barbaric punishment. But you have to see this in a much wider social context. The punishment is as excessive as deserter being shot during the world wars. Also, it was only carried out during Islams infancy where alot of false apostacy was being used to try and destroy the new religion. It is more the message that this conveyed to society during the early days of islam. I dont think that this punishment is specifically prescribed in the Koran.
butterfly... i fail to see what your point is. muslims are stupid? i fear, again, you have commented without thinking about the consequences of what you say.
Are you saying that once you become a muslim (at puberty, maybe under the presure from family/society?) you cannot turn back?
What happens if you stop believing? What do you do?
Also, I think that the mayority of muslim population in many countries tend to have very poor education. I wonder how many people in Afghanistan have received basic education.
he is free now, they released him few days ago and the Italian government invited him to immigrate to Italy as a refugee, he play it well and got what he want (leaving the poor country Afghanistan).
If u decide to follow a certain religion then u should be willing to go by it's rules...u can't pick and choose......u therefore must be very sure and make educated choices...If the Afghan guy was forced into islam than it is wrong to criminalise him...but if he freely chose it and then denounced it then by shareea he must first be councilled and talked to and given every opportunity to return to his faith.........u see it is not a game u cannot be muslim one day and something else another....if your not sure about it DON"T become muslim.........As i said before u choose your religion at puberty ....
I'd just like to add that the muslim population is more informed than most westerners think ..we don't go by what our media is saying (as in the US)...reactions in the west to middle east problems...palastine ,iraq etc ..these are the things that shape public opinion..........Our goverment wants us to be "friends" with israel that doesn't mean we are ...the people make up their own mind based on what they see and hear and witness first hand..lili.
i agree with you on the americans. they seem to forget that free will and liberty is something else than the doctrine of the US to defeat evil around the globe. it seems that they try to keep their banktrupt country on its feet by imposing US style capitalism to the world. but i think the same is true for certain islamic governments. they try to create an enemy, usually the west, to divert attention to the misery, lack of freedom, of their people.
Yeah Giasi but it is a sharia court. Imagine the furore if uncle sam had decided to ban that.
Free will in religion is very very difficult. Most religions are based on the society in which they were created. As such living in a particular society will make you more inclined towards a religion that is familiar. This is in addition to pressure from parents etc.
Unfortunately most religions also cling to the idea that theirs is the right one. "The true word of god" as I think someone said in another post. This further reduces the chance of free will.
What I don't get is why so obvious a fiction as one being right and another wrong is laughed out of existence. I mean what about a polynesian islander blessedly untouched by missionaries of any kind. Has god forgotten them? Is it just the favoured people of arabia or europe who get to join in the fun of the afterlife?
It takes me back to the good old days before the americans decided to spread "freedom and liberty" to Afghanistan. Dont forget, this is the government installed and backed by Uncle Sam
Our grandchildren have a muslim father and christian mother. It was decided at birth that they would not push the children to either of those religions but allow them to make their own mind up when they were old enough.
To execute someone for wanting to change seems a bit barbaric but as you say it only appears to work one way. I cannot imagine many (if any) countries following that lead.
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lol , so is this going to be our catch phrase now?.lili.
lilipink is this a debate or a fight..........cool down ..
What have i been saying over and over and over again???
For crying out loud it was ONE "muslim" in one country.....Do u know how many countries we have in the world.Do u know how many muslims there are in the world............Your judging the entire muslim populus and stereo typing them because of what????100 ,500 muslimswho are terrorrists and say they represnt islam.....Islam the religion that u should look up and find out what it's about before passing judgement.....To know any religion without prejudice u should read the litreture(Bible ,Tora ,Quran).....don't pass judgement because of what u hear or/and see on the news...tha's just a glitzy speck of the truth......It's what sells news .
It is the same God for muslims and christians and jews...actually we believe that it's the same religion......As muslims we are require to beleive in all the prophets that came before Mohhamed(PBUH)...We believe in Adam,Noah,david,joseph,Ibrahim,Moses,jesus...all of them........we believe they were sent by the same God to give the same message(that explains the similarities)...their holy books were sent from god ..the only God ...the same God....they are a continuation of one another ............a constant reminder.
Each time people would drift away from god he would send a reminder...a messenger....some would return to the faith and others would persist..sometimes god would send more then one messenger at one given time , .lili.
I just want the religious right, christian or muslim, to leave each other alone.
Lili, if muslims don't need to force anyone to convert, why do Afgan muslim want to kill one pereson who left islam. Leave him alone, let him be what he wants to be. I have no problem with everyone converting to islam if they want to convert. I do have a problem with anyone telling me I have to be a christian, a muslim, a buddist, etc.
I have a problem with the Government having a state religion, any government, any religion. God gave man free-will to decide, let each person make their decision.
There are people in each religion who think they have the only answer to God, do we have a different God for muslims and christians? Just because I read holy books different than someone else, should I be killed?
When people quit killing people in the name of religion, we will be ready for God here on earth. It is not only different religions, it is different sects of the same religion.
Actually i never had the need to think about it.lili.
it is a puzzling dilema ...i don't have an answer!.lili.
Still very confusing...
So. I had my "confirmation" to christianity when I was 16. I was sure, I had thought very long and hard before my confirmation and was sure of the step I was taking. I wasn't forced into it.
Now...
If tomorrow I decide, after thinking again long and hard, that I made the wrong decision, that the "True" word of God is the one followed by muslims and I want to convert to Islam...I wouldn't be able to, because I must stick to my previous choice and I cannot change faith. So even if I believe with all my heart that Islam is the right religion for me, I cannot convert because I made my choice of religion twelve years ago?
Doesn't sound right...
Helloqatar is this a debate or a fight..........cool down ..
First of all i said that IF you choose a certain religion then u should think long and hard BEFORE entering into it because it isn't a game....if u believe it is the true religion ..whatever that is don't you think u should stick to it???
GIASI is right there is no death sentence, the punishment is left to the god u worship..............every action does have an equal & opposite reaction..laws of physics...U want to live without accountability ????
End result: choose u're faith and stick to it....w
WHATEVER IT IS.
You have alot of issues here ...I'll ask u .....if your a christian and u break the ten commandments...alot...does that still make u a christian .....
u do have non practicing christians as we have non practicing muslims...........Practice is one thing ...faith is another....People are different and they tend to mix and match.
Now this whole last sentence helloqatar is just way out there....Thousands of people convert TO islam daily...we don't need to force anyone.......lili.
I cannot say if what they did was right or wrong(the trail) but i can say that we do have freedom of worship in islam and examples are numerous from Quranic verse to historic text.......
.What did the prophet do to the people of Mecca(they worshiped a multitude of gods and idols) who used to abuse ,beat, throw animal remains on him while he prays and insult him on a daily basis until he was forced to immigrate to El Madina? He could have punished or even killed them all when he returned victorious, but he did nothing of the sort ....everyone co-exsisted peacefully......
How did islam deal with christians when they went to Egypt and Spain..????were churches destroyed or people killed?????they could have considering that it was common practice for conquerers to rape pilidge and plunder....but they did no such thing...Ask butterfly
The Quran specifically states that everybody has their own religion ...you have yours ..i have mine.....Freedom
I'm just sick of people blaming religion -any religion -for how a minority of self proclaimed followers act..............Am i supposed to judge the whole American population ,for example ,by how their goverment acts in the name of freedom and the American way of life...They dropped packages of food and medical aid on Afghanistan from one plane while bombing them with another...you eat ..u die??!!!?
I also want to say that the way muslims see death is not like the way most people see it......Death is only the begining for us............................................................................thankyou and god bless u!!!.lili.
Helloqatar. There is no written teaching that apostacy in islam is penalised by death. Quite the contrary, there are instances where apostates were left alone (during the time of the prophet). The examples cited by alot of muslims are situations where people were killed for other reasons (for murder, treason etc) the fact that they were apostates at the time was not the reason they were killed.
Respect
GIASI
LiLipink,
What you are saying is that a person should not change from a Christian to a Muslim because once he has chosen, he can't have second thoughts. OR is it OK to leave the Christian/Buddist/etc faiths and become Muslim but that it is not OK for someone to leave the Muslim faith.
You can't have it both ways, either people can change in either direction or once they join a religion, they can never change to another. Why would you want a person in your religion that doesn't want to be a Muslim, are you going to start forcing people to pray 5 times a day? What if you are a Muslim but eat pork, are you really not a Muslim? Can you be a Muslim and have a beer? Can I be a Muslim and decide to not practice the beliefs, is it OK aslong as I don't become something else?
If any religion has to threaten to kill someone to make them believe, it must not have much faith in being right. The only way to be a strong religion is to have people believe by choice, not theat!
KaZaNoVa
Guys its not wether he is free or not, like i am muslim ok and i very mitkamesh b my relegion coz god choosed for me to be a muslim which am 100% proud of it, but some people specially nawadays how shalll i say it , they have this feeling inside them maybe coz their relgion or parents r very closed minded to them they think of turning to a christian coz therer life r different than ours,but i say one thing the one that goes out of his/her religion , he/she dont have one
in arabic :P elli byitla3 3an dino ma 2iloo din
and it depends on the country from other side
some countries r closed minded while other r opened minded
Best Regards,
Kazanova
I think u misunderstood me butterfly ...i did say if he had cosen the religion freely .....if that was the case then no he cannot change his mind after a while..it's not like ordering lunch!!Becoming a Muslim (or a member of any religion )is not a decision you can take lightly..I'll continue later........ .lili.
I haven't said that they are stupid. I am just saying that education is a common problem for many muslim countries. Illiteracy percentages are high in countries such as Afghanistan, Pakistan, Indonesia etc.
That was in response to Lili's comment about how well educated muslims are. In Qatar, for example, education is very good. I am saying that in many muslim countries this is not the case.
OK?
In fact, i challenge anyone to give me evidence that islam preaches anything but "no compulsion in religion". Anyone who says that legitimate apostacy is punishable by death is probably an advocater of refusing education to women and not allowing them to socially interact like driving cars.
Respect
GIASI
Yes, it may seem a barbaric punishment. But you have to see this in a much wider social context. The punishment is as excessive as deserter being shot during the world wars. Also, it was only carried out during Islams infancy where alot of false apostacy was being used to try and destroy the new religion. It is more the message that this conveyed to society during the early days of islam. I dont think that this punishment is specifically prescribed in the Koran.
butterfly... i fail to see what your point is. muslims are stupid? i fear, again, you have commented without thinking about the consequences of what you say.
Respect
GIASI
Lili,
Are you saying that once you become a muslim (at puberty, maybe under the presure from family/society?) you cannot turn back?
What happens if you stop believing? What do you do?
Also, I think that the mayority of muslim population in many countries tend to have very poor education. I wonder how many people in Afghanistan have received basic education.
I'm glad that he is safe now.
he is free now, they released him few days ago and the Italian government invited him to immigrate to Italy as a refugee, he play it well and got what he want (leaving the poor country Afghanistan).
Ayman
If u decide to follow a certain religion then u should be willing to go by it's rules...u can't pick and choose......u therefore must be very sure and make educated choices...If the Afghan guy was forced into islam than it is wrong to criminalise him...but if he freely chose it and then denounced it then by shareea he must first be councilled and talked to and given every opportunity to return to his faith.........u see it is not a game u cannot be muslim one day and something else another....if your not sure about it DON"T become muslim.........As i said before u choose your religion at puberty ....
I'd just like to add that the muslim population is more informed than most westerners think ..we don't go by what our media is saying (as in the US)...reactions in the west to middle east problems...palastine ,iraq etc ..these are the things that shape public opinion..........Our goverment wants us to be "friends" with israel that doesn't mean we are ...the people make up their own mind based on what they see and hear and witness first hand..lili.
i agree with you on the americans. they seem to forget that free will and liberty is something else than the doctrine of the US to defeat evil around the globe. it seems that they try to keep their banktrupt country on its feet by imposing US style capitalism to the world. but i think the same is true for certain islamic governments. they try to create an enemy, usually the west, to divert attention to the misery, lack of freedom, of their people.
Yeah Giasi but it is a sharia court. Imagine the furore if uncle sam had decided to ban that.
Free will in religion is very very difficult. Most religions are based on the society in which they were created. As such living in a particular society will make you more inclined towards a religion that is familiar. This is in addition to pressure from parents etc.
Unfortunately most religions also cling to the idea that theirs is the right one. "The true word of god" as I think someone said in another post. This further reduces the chance of free will.
What I don't get is why so obvious a fiction as one being right and another wrong is laughed out of existence. I mean what about a polynesian islander blessedly untouched by missionaries of any kind. Has god forgotten them? Is it just the favoured people of arabia or europe who get to join in the fun of the afterlife?
NO is the obvious answer.
I agree with you on that GIASI. Freedom and liberty so long as it's friendly and does as it's told!
It takes me back to the good old days before the americans decided to spread "freedom and liberty" to Afghanistan. Dont forget, this is the government installed and backed by Uncle Sam
Respect
GIASI
Our grandchildren have a muslim father and christian mother. It was decided at birth that they would not push the children to either of those religions but allow them to make their own mind up when they were old enough.
To execute someone for wanting to change seems a bit barbaric but as you say it only appears to work one way. I cannot imagine many (if any) countries following that lead.
It seems to only work one way, in some countries.