Da Vinci Code Broken?

The Da Vinci Code is the only book I've ever actually thrown across the room. :-)

Yes, a lot of the ideas in it are based on real history and real research -- but a lot of them are not. So half the "facts" in his books are things that every biblical scholar already knows, but he writes them as though somehow he's brilliant and subversive for saying these things. And the other half of the "facts" are completely absurd, but he writes them as though they're just commonplace truths.

So, for example, the ONE thing he says for sure is historically true in that book is the information about the Priory of Sion -- but that's not really true at all. And the things he talks about as though they're breaking news, like the idea that Jesus could have been married, are things that biblical scholars have been talking about for centuries.

Mostly, though, I just think he's a shoddy researcher. Here's my favorite example: In another of his books, Angels and Demons, the camarlengo (that's the pope's own priest) SAYS THE HAIL MARY WRONG. (That's like... writing a book where a main character is the muezzin at the Masjid Al-Haram, and having him say the adhan wrong. For a writer, it's not something that's hard to get RIGHT, but over and over he gets things like that WRONG. It just totally destroys any enjoyment in his books, for me.

I mean, I know they're fiction, and I don't expect them to be totally true! But if the whole premise of your book is that you're unearthing secrets that the Church wants you to hide, then you ought to at least be convincing when you pretend you know anything at ALL about the Church!

OK! Whew! Glad I got that out of my system. ;-)

The book is a fiction novel but the idea behind it is not. I would suggest that u guys try to check the BBC show on the subject or read the Holly Grill book. It has more stuff than what was shown in the novel, as the novel changed the countries names n added so much unrelated details :)

So, the subject is more of a theory than a novel :)

Let's not forget that the book was a fiction novel.

The BBC documentary with a guy called Lincoln, a co-author of the first book on the subject which is called the Holey Grill, n the movie. For me, the whole conclusion is something created from nothing. A painting, a mysterious preacher who got rich, churches aligned in the same format n so on. All has nothing related to the final conclusion except in the mind of the authors. So again n like done by so many researchers, the creators of this theory started with a conclusion n went back trying to prove it by linking unrelated dots. N as usual, when u come from the final result, then all leads will prove ur point. How many times did we hear that something is bad for us in one research while another research will prove the opposite.

The question should be, was this movie a retaliation to the Passion of Christ movie? I say maybe :)

I loved the book, it was very well written...

Went to see the movie and was rather disappointed, story line was changed and above all it was filmed in a very casual way. When you read the book, writer describes the surroundings in great detail hence helping reader make a mental image of the places described. What a shame that director of the movie lost it all...

Most of the religious debate going on in this forum has more or less already been discussed in earlier forum "Something I can't seem to shake off" ....

Aisha got upset last time when some rude replies were posted and to my utter surprise she started this debate ... Why ... I would never know.

By the way book is a fiction, anybody who thinks otherwise needs to get help

Beast666

Romanticised views are one thing; factual data is another. Unfortunately too many people accept the stated norm without bothering to conduct their own personal objective research into matters.

And as Al Gore once said, "What a waste it is to lose one's mind."

So far you have accused me of impertinence, unpoliteness and choosing my words caressly. This is despite the fact that you started this with a text that might, indeed, trouble all faiths other than Islam. Despite the fact that have repeatedly said that I accept Islam as a path to God and of course, despite the fact that I have not attacked you personally nor have I attacked the Muslim faith as such.

If I believed that the Quran was the word of God and Muhammed a genuine messanger of God, then I would be a Muslim. I think that is obvious.

If you don´t have an open mind to hear different opinions or points of view, then I suggest you refrain from posting discussions that can start a religious debate. I agree with the earlier post (earl of chesterfield). It is best to keep religios opinions to your self.

Aisha

Much as I respect your beliefs it is very clear that the history of mohammed is at best sketchy. No one has a very clear view of what he did during his life depite all the propoganda to suggest otherwise.

The things you quote as fact above are unlikely to be so and are sourced from a tenous string of hearsay.

Take a objective view and do a little independent research (not just islamic sources) and see for yourself

Butterfly, First, I thank you for sharing your “information� with us. I understand the confusion and I don’t blame any non Muslim for that. I’ll try, for the sake of Allah, to overcome my sensitivity toward what I see as impolite and bad choice of used words..You are not scholars and neither am I. So, I’m not asking you to be anything but yourselves, as I am being myself here as an ordinary Muslim girl.

Also, I totally understand you. I know how you see it.I can easily put myself in your shoe and imagine what I would’ve been doing if I thought that in order to be a good christian I should embrace that attitude.

Now,Muslims know that these issues that you and others keep bringing on are very sensitive that they have been used as the target and the favorite misconception, through which dishonest Orientalists propagate against Islam. Some of these people and their blind followers like to portray Muhammad PBUH as a lustful womanizer who has nothing to do except to satisfy his fleshy desires. He was anything but that, peace be upon him..Those who read the Islamic history written from the reliable sources know it well.

Muhammed PBUH never contradicts himself, NEVER.I wonder how would anyone read some anti Islam materials and actually believe them.I myself have in my favorite list online some reliable Christian sites only to make sure I get the right thing when It comes to Christian answers.

Dear butterfly, Muhammed PBUH married that number of wives at a time when the norm of the place he lived in (Arab Peninsula – 7th century) allowed men to marry much much larger number. The divine order that came to Muslim by Qura’n to restrict that number to a maximum of four was AFTER he was already married to them. As Muslims know, the wives of the prophet PBUH have special situation, they are not allowed to marry other men. So Allah asked him to keep them. He married them before the order and his case was different because his wives has a different status in this life and the hereafter.

And I got these points explaining more from islamonline.net:

1. So, it was rather inhuman for his wives to be doomed to solitude and depravity all their lives. Thus he was exceptionally permitted to keep them.

2. Looking at the circumstances, in which he married each wife, one finds that all those marriages were the furthest from being motivated simply by lust. The marriage to his first wife, Khadijah, was his only wife until she died after almost 20 years of marriage. This marriage to Khadijah covered the years of his youth. Despite the fact that these years were supposed to be the peak of his sexual demand, he did not think of taking any other wife together with her.

The rest of his wives - whom he married after her death - came at a time when he was nearly 50! Exhausted in spreading the new religion, mostly chased by the infidels and where attempts at taking his life were frequent, I, personally, don't think that this was a romantic atmosphere for anybody to go on amorous adventures!

3. Most of his wives whom he took after the death of Khadijah were old in age, devoid of beauty and were formerly married - except `A’ishah, who was the only one who was young and a virgin. This is despite the fact that he was always the target of many believing ladies, who came offering themselves to him in marriage, but then he politely apologized to them.

4. Every one of these marriages was for a reason; either political to make alliance with other tribes, or human to sustain a widow of a martyr or to honor a lady whom no body wanted to marry… etc. It was not reported that he married them out of carnal desires.

5. He was a model example of justice and kindness to them all regardless of his neutral feelings towards many of them, he would never discriminate among them or reveal the special feelings he had for Aishah rather than the others.

BTW, I had some comments about other things but I really have no time as I am packing now. Some of you seem to be interested in knowing about things..so I’m just asking you all to kindly contact real Muslims via moderate sites as the once I keep referring to.. and just ask them.. they’ll be more than happy answering your questions and even publishing the answers for everybody about some areas that might be vague to you as to me sometime.

As the Earl of Chesterfield said, "Religion is by no means a proper subject of conversation in a mixed company."

We're right, no we're right, we're going to heaven and you're going to hell, no you are...

This obsession with showing up others' religions is childish and ignorant. Spare us the propaganda, worship in private, accept others for who and what they are and live and let live.

You are right, I do not know for sure. I strongly believe that the Quran is not the word of God, and all material and historical background that I have read about it reinforces that belief. But I do not know.

However, I cannot understand Muhammed as a true messanger of God. Firstly because it would go against the Christian teachings and secondly because there are occasions that he contradicted his preachings with his actions. For example, he ordered four wives only, but he had more than four?. Or because in occasions, he showed extreme cruelty towards pagans. Then again, a religion that I respect and accept as a Path to God was created from his message. But as I said before, God ways are are a mistery to us.

Clacket: I´m sorry, I could not understand your post. Please elaborate?

I wish all people her to know that Jesus is written his stroy in Quran

All christan know that ...

So what the problem

Butterfly,

I agree with a lot of what you've written here, and I would love to hear a Muslim respond to your point about Baha'u'llah.

I disagree with this though:

"Non Muslims: Christians, atheist, jews etc, know that the Quran is not the word of God."

I don't KNOW that the Qur'an is not the word of God. I have read it cover to cover, and I do not BELIEVE it to be the word of God. (And, as a Christian, I understand the Word of God to be Christ and not any book on Earth.) But I don't think we should claim to KNOW the truth about the Qur'an, any more than Muslims should. ;-)

FWIW I don't think Muhammad was a false prophet. I think that, like any prophet, he responded to the promptings of the Divine as best he could. But I also think that, also like all prophets, he was an imperfect conduit for the divine voice, and thus that not everything he believed to be God's will really was.

genesis:

"Buddhism is religion based on the preaching of a person, and yet a lot around the globe are fascinated by its concept."

No, Buddhism sees itself just as Islam does: as self-evident truth, that happened to have been preached most perfectly by one person, but that is not dependent on that person. What made the Buddha special is that he recognized the truth, not that he invented it.

Also, all religions are ways of life. :-)

What isup with people; Dan Brown is a fiction novelist; he is written I'm guessing dozens of fiction novels, how did he suddenly become a historian; as well as DB being a weird man at that by many accounts.

You know who else fits these traits; R. Lon Hubart; another science-fiction novelist peado (not that I am saying DB is) - Now Hubart is the god/ spiritua; leader of Scientology - u know with the people that think aliens are inside of us and keeping us sick etc...

I can see it not long before there is some new branch of christianity; maybe called Codeism?

We do not need more 'religions' we need rationality ... what has that happened in this type of the world.

Guys, please do not forget ISLAM goals 2 become "Rahmatan lil Allaminn", bless 4 everyone, bless 4 who believe also bless 4 who did not believe, as long as U already told them the truth and they keep with what they believe, let it be :)

I'm indonisian moslem and my wife is a catholic, I did tell her the truth but she still beleive what she beleive and we still love each others :D

Peace 4 everyone

don't want to buy it, read it, or watch it. More money for the author less money for food for starving children. The author is a guinness, they wanted "mor money" and they are getting it, tons of it. Intelligent people should realize when people are out to get their goods, be it intelligence or materials. This book it fictional and those who do know it or don't know it want to make something of it that it is not. I just don't see why someone who has strong faith in their religion would want to waste time with FICTION and prove something from it. Again, the author is making millions and has us right where they want us, empting our pockets.

exept not all, only some, they are always some fake ones.

There is no "true" ring. They are all fake. :)

Oh and by the way no I don't believe it is christianity. I don't believe in any of the religions or god.

I just think that as a logical argument it makes no sense for one to be correct and another not because religion is inherited from culture therefore you cannot persecute a follower of a religion (in this life or the next) who only is doing what they were brought up to believe.

I don't like the rest of the story because now its meaning changes. Now you suggest that one ring is better than the other.

well ... thats cool that we agree on something at least!!

as a matter of fact ... the story doesnt end there ...

the three kings are not fully satisfied with the wise man's answer... they say: even though we cant prove which ring is the true ring... we all know that only one is True and the other two re Fake !! ...

we know that .. we cant deny that fact...

the wise man then says : true ....there is one true ring ... but at this point you cant find it ... however we also know that the ring has special powers...and these powers are not available with the fake rings ... so live your lives ... build your empires and see which of you will gain the love, trust and wealth... and that king would have the true ring ...

----------------------------------------

the story bounces between a perfect world and a realistic one ...

in a perfect world there is one true thing ... and everybody should find it and follow it...i believe its islam ... you believe its current chirstianity...etc

though in reality ... its very hard to prove which of those are the right one...

after all i would say.... a better way of discussion would beto start in a common platform ... i cant make a point with verses from the quran ...cause DUH!! if they believe in the quran then they would be muslims already ... and vice versa ..

(and yes we can repeat the story with X amount of rings )

I like that story too.

Very good fahad. I'm happy with that. Except there are a lot more than 3 rings

there is once a person who found a ring...this ring gives its holder a superior power that makes all people obey its holder and grants him love and power... a guy once got this ring and eventually he became the king of the country ...

when the king was about to die .... he passes the ring to the most trusted and beloved person to him ... this family continues to passes the ring from father to son ... one to another ... untill a king came who had three sons...equally in preference and equally of worth to the king... when the king wants to die he was confused on who to give this ring to... so he gets the bes blacksmith in the country and he makes two exact copies of the ring ... and gives them to the king ...before the king dies he gives each of his sons one of the rings ... and passes a way...

the sons are confused... and each of them claims that he has the true ring ... and that his ring is the right one ...the fight ... separate ...build their own kingdoms and gets into war... before the war they try to talk and rejoice ... each of them believes that he was the best son ...and that the king gave him the correct ring ... the get a wise man to let him judge between them ...

the wise man researches the situation and tells them ... do we see all the rings very similar? ... then we cant know which of them is the true one ... then it doesnt matter who has the right ring ... lets just assume that all of the rings are right... because their will NEVER be a way to prove who has the right ring ... just lets live in peace and respect each others...

---------------------

(the rings represents religions.. the brothers represents the prophets) ...

do you agree ?

My intention was not to sound fanatic because I am not (at all) I am, in fact, very very moderate and I often critise extreme movements within the Church. I do not take seriously the Vatican. I live my religion in a very gentle way.

Having said that, do not forget that Aisha started this discussion with a text that clearly attacks Christian faith. The "triying to prove you are wrong and I am right" when it comes to religious faith is offending and upsetting. I would never try to convince a muslim of what I think might wrong.

But Muslims, when trying to persuade masses of their rightfulness of their religion, often open their book and start quoting verses. I have played here just the same game. So it is fair.

I have nothing but admiration for the work of Muhammed. Thanks to him, some sort of moral values where created in this part of the world. But Islam preaches violence in order to extend its doctrine. I cannot come to terms with that.

I love asian religions such as buddist because its doctrines are very similar to the christian doctrine. They carry messages of peace and tolerance.

"There is a major concern growing among liberal Muslims on how to adapt the vast majority of Muslims to modernity"

Genesis, do you realise this is very very difficult. Thát´s because the Quran is not timeless or universal. It is designed for a concrete period and a particular place. So trying to adapt to modernity is a big challenge. Good luck.

Genesis I agree that butterfly got a bit carried away with her quotations and false prophet chat but I think one thing we would like to see is at least a semblance of realistic evaluation of the religion.

The blind unquestioning faith which currently characterises islam is unfortunately the source of many of its problems with the outside world.

Butterfly has her faith and it is clearly strong but that said she is open to a few obvious ideas...

1) If she was brought up in an islamic country by islamic parents she would most likely be a muslim. This is because religion is (like you say) often a way of life and is culturally based. Therefore to suggest there are right and wrong religions silly

2) The bible is not the word of God. Even if you come to eventually decide that the Koran is in fact directly from God this should not just be taken for granted. There is much (but not enough due to the penalties for blasphemy etc) good scholarship which suggests that the koran is far from being a direct translation. There is even good historical evidence for Mohd not being that involved in the creation of the religion. Neither of which, if true, should damage the religion at all.

Modern religion should not be about wowing the masses with fanciful myths and miracles. It is about appealing to educated people's sense of right the true way to live life.

This would be the way I would like to see Islam move. The codes and lifestyles and customs of islam are wonderful additions to the world's creeds. The religion should be honoured for these rather than the magic tricks

"Non Muslims: Christians, atheist, jews etc, know that the Quran is not the word of God.\"

Butterfly, you sounded even worse then fanatic & fundamentalist Muslims.

If Quran was really the word of Mohammed (pbuh), then he must have done a great job. Converting a region dominated by pagans, and within a century of his death plunging deep into Europe, while in the east spreading through Asia and down to India.

With a total of 1.6 billion population, Nearly one in five people in the world today claims the faith of Islam.

I won’t challenge you with the authenticity or origin of Quran, you can believe whatever you want.

Buddhism is religion based on the preaching of a person, and yet a lot around the globe are fascinated by its concept.

There is a major concern growing among liberal Muslims on how to adapt the vast majority of Muslims to modernity.

Islam, for us, is not just a religion, but a way of life, a system of order & stability that, although sometimes introduced at sword-point, often replaced anarchy and barbarism in the last 14th centuries.

This is what really matter to us.

Aisha you only mean it because you want to. Let's take a more extreme example....say you were brought up in a small south east asian hill tribe as a buddhist.

Would you then have found islam? If so how? and why? Your family are buddhists your whole culture is buddhist what would sudddenly compel you to break free?

I am not saying you are being deliberately dishonest but I think that you are unwilling to admit that in these, hypothetical, circumstances it is in fact highly likely that you wouldn't be muslim.

You love islam so much now to a large degree because of your culture and upbringing. To suggest otherwise is being a little naive.

I do not want to get into a slanging match about the merits of the various religious codes because as you know I don't believe in any of them. I would like though for you to perhaps, even partially, acknowledge that religion is largely determined by your culture. This makes it seem unfair if one was considered right and one wrong from god's perspective.

If there is a god, which I don't think there is, he or she would surely not persecute those for worshipping that which they had been indoctrinated (just like you have been with islam) is the correct path.

i must say that i have not followed or read the discussion bar the last few comments.

Regarding anything on tv largely and especially US tv, I would never take anything they said for granted; the only one that I feel has some level of trustworthiness or credibility is PBS, otherwise they all other motives behind anything they say or do.

Regarding, Da Vinci Code movie, lets just say I saw the film and was not impressed. Even as a film it lacked pragmaticability and although I would not deny that the bible as a book is probably innacurate, due to the lack of historical records taken from primary sources etc. The film indeed I found as being more humourous than anything else...

Let's look at the verse:

And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: "O Children of Israel! I am the messenger of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad." But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, "this is evident sorcery!" S. 61:6 Yusuf Ali

The problem with the verse is that Jesus never made this prediction. Muhammad made it up. Maybe I can help other Muslim readers to see that there really is a problem by illustrating it with a simple fictitious scenario. Muhammad was not the last one to start a religion claiming that he was announced beforehand by earlier prophets. For example, this is the first paragraph of the Wikipedia entry on Bahá'u'lláh, founder of the Baha'i faith:

He claimed to fulfill the Bábí prophecy of "He whom God shall make manifest", but in a broader sense he also claimed to be the Messenger of God prophesied in all great religious traditions. He said that this day “is the king of days,� for which “the soul of every Prophet of God, of every Divine Messenger, hath thirsted,� and that “In this most mighty Revelation, all the Dispensations of the past have attained their highest, their final consummation.� (Source, accessed on 20 April 2006; bold emphasis mine)

Imagine that in one of Bahá'u'lláh's writings we were to find the statement:

And remember, Muhammad, the son of Amina, said: "O Arabs! I am the messenger of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Revelations (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Bahá'u'lláh." But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, "this is evident sorcery!"

Would Muslims be impressed? Would they consider this to be evidence that Bahá'u'lláh is truly a messenger from God and thus convert and join the Baha'i faith? Hardly! Why not?

Given that such an alleged saying by Muhammad is recorded neither in the Qur'an nor in the sahih hadith, the authoritative sources of the religion of Islam, Muslims would conclude that Bahá'u'lláh invented this statement and put it into Muhammad's mouth in order to deceive and mislead people into believing that he is a messenger from God.

Instead of being a reason for believing in Bahá'u'lláh and his message, such a false claim would be a strong reason against believing him. It would not matter at all, if that statement were to be found in the authoritative religious sources of the Baha'is. The fact that it is not recorded in the Islamic sources would be sufficient reason for Muslims (and most other people), to reject such a claim as fabricated.

Baha'i apologists (defenders of the faith) could then counter this embarrassing problem by claiming that the Muslims have corrupted their scriptures by deliberately removing any reference to Bahá'u'lláh, ... but who would consider such a desperate response to be credible? Most everyone would immediately see that it was created merely for the purpose of defending a false claim by their religious founder.

Based on the authoritative Islamic sources, Muslims would easily be able to list half a dozen other reasons why this statement could not even be a lost but authentic statement of Muhammad. The fact that Muhammad explicitly taught to be the final prophet would only be one of them. There would be many others.

The problem of Surah 61:6 from a Christian viewpoint is the same as the one outlined above. There is no support for it in authentic Christian writings. Not only does Jesus not mention any "Ahmad", the Messiah (Jesus) is the center and climax of God's history of revelation and salvation. To postulate a later messenger to supersede Jesus stands in utter contradiction to the entire message of the Bible, Old and New Testaments. Looking at the historical evidence, Surah 61:6 is merely one of several alleged sayings of Jesus that the author of the Qur'an fabricated in order to give support to the claim that Muhammad is a messenger from God. No more and no less.

so Muhammad's credibility as a supposed messenger from God is heavily damaged by making the false claim about Jesus that is found in Surah 61:6.

It does not even matter much whether they made their wrong claims deliberately (i.e. knowing them to be wrong, but thinking they are nevertheless useful polemics), or ignorantly (i.e. thinking them to be correct, but being false in reality).

Muslims should be worried that the Qur'an contains this fabricated claim about an alleged statement of Jesus. To repeat, the Qur'an contains a false claim, a fake quotation, a forged prophecy. That damages the credibility of the Qur'an. That means that the Qur'an is not from God.

Since that our dear members are being too offensive with a lack of respect to others I guess I don’t belong to this discussion any more.I have so many comments and answers but I just can’t accept the impertinence… Keep it up, adults!

"And when Isa son of Marium said: O children of Israel! surely I am the messenger of Allah to you, verifying that which is before me of the Taurat and giving the good news of an Messenger who will come after me, his name being Ahmad, but when he came to them with clear arguments they said: This is clear magic."

(As-Saff, Chapter #61, Verse #6)

(Ahmed i.e. Muhammad PBUH"

So muslims believe that christians purposely erased this words from the New Testament? Why would christians do that? This is absurd. But then again, most of the Quranic verses are full of contradiction and absurdity.

*********************************

"For who is the liar, he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is the antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father" 1 John 2:22,23 (KJV

I’m honest and you don’t have t believe me, super7. Thank you for the nice reply any way. Now you’ll leave the discussion and attack Aisha because she said if I weren’t a Muslim I’d have converted to Islam. God knows I mean it.

QUOTE - I´m not going to be hypocrite enough to claim that I would still be a Christian was I born in a muslim country and raised by a muslim family. Of course I would be a muslim. How could I be allowed to embrace any other faith?�

Well, I know for sure that If I was born in a religion that says that If God\The creator shall hear me I should pray to one of his creation I wouldn’t keep that faith and I’d defiantly find some refuge of a monotheism..It’s just who I am when it comes to my special relationship with the one and the only. I’m not being hypocrite I’m being as honest as I can comparing my self with some new Muslims.

THAT is not honest. Silly, naive yes but not honest

Butterfly, What I understood is that , as you said, it won’t feel like a waste even if you knew that it’s wrong only because it’s the way YOU want it to be.So, it’s your way of doing things.

In Islam, yes..we all pray at the same time ( except the other voluntary prayers) and yes we all pay the same amount of charity at the same time of a year ( except the other times when we just want to pay , which is highly recommended) and yes we do things as Allah said ..We do it happily and willingly because we do them out of love and absolute obedience. We are proud of these lines and we like to maintain them. They are both obligation and delight. If we did something by force, then it simply doesn’t count.

If you did it only your way of course you won’t feel that you wasted your life even if your religious side of it was wrong.Because what you did during it is what you want..you simply lived it your way and made yourself the rules and everything …maybe a little bit inspired by some religious idoles..so it was simply an imitation.

About the research,now you really made me laugh. See, Islam is way simpler then what people think. I just got books for moderate scholars, I read about the meanings of some verses in Qura’n. I had some short courses about some of the basics. Some Muslims misunderstand Islam because they don’t bother reading the very available books of the very famous good open minded Muslims of the Islamic history and the Quranic studies. By the way, I’m not saying that I know much now because Islam is a way of life, a life style..there is always more to learn. But once you know the major basics you can just move on on your life.

About your claim that prophet Mhammed P.B.U.H is a false prophet as Jesus peace be upon him told you about the prophets after him. Yes, there were some false prophets but Muhammed P.B.U.H ain’t one of them.We know that in your book there was a mention of prophet Mohammed P.B.U.H. Furthermore, there were a lot of people who claimed to be messengers of God based on that verse. And we all know what some Christians do when they don’t like something God said. So, these verses are gone now.

"And when Isa son of Marium said: O children of Israel! surely I am the messenger of Allah to you, verifying that which is before me of the Taurat and giving the good news of an Messenger who will come after me, his name being Ahmad, but when he came to them with clear arguments they said: This is clear magic."

(As-Saff, Chapter #61, Verse #6)

(Ahmed i.e. Muhammad PBUH)

Ironically, the original Christianity, as we believe, had the first announcement and did do the preaching about Muhammed P.B.U.H..take it or leave it.

Please, have a look at this link about Muhammed PBUH in the Bible.If I were you, I’ll be very surprised :-D

http://muhammad.net/biblelp/index.htm

Anyway, Jews , people of Torah or the Old Testament do not believe in the Christian’s Gospel, or the New Testament..and Christians do not believe in Quran. Yet, people of Quran, Muslims, believe in the former books, despite the fact that humans made a great deal of changing .

“I´m not going to be hypocrite enough to claim that I would still be a Christian was I born in a muslim country and raised by a muslim family. Of course I would be a muslim. How could I be allowed to embrace any other faith?�

Well, I know for sure that If I was born in a religion that says that If God\The creator shall hear me I should pray to one of his creation I wouldn’t keep that faith and I’d defiantly find some refuge of a monotheism..It’s just who I am when it comes to my special relationship with the one and the only. I’m not being hypocrite I’m being as honest as I can comparing my self with some new Muslims.

By the way, I’m reading these days "La Bible, Le Coran, et la Science." a book by Maurice Bucaille.I advice you guys to get it..very neutral and not religious. ( Of course I’m reading the Arabic translation but you can get the English)

I had to think a lot for a response to your posts.

“It is like a curse if one “wasted� his/her life on what he thought was right�

Thing is, even if I knew I was wrong, it wouldn´t feel like a waste. My religion, as I was thought it, does not allow much room for sacrifice. There is no instructions on how many times I have to pray, at what time, in which direction etc. There are no restriction on what I have to eat or drink. Nobody tells me what percentage of my possessions I have to give to charity. I can choose to ignore Vatican preachings on chastity and the like. I pray when my heart tells me to pray and basically all I have to do is to love God and treat everyone just as I would like to be treated. Entering a church is not an obligation but a delight. So that´s pretty much about it. How would it feel like a waste, even if it was wrong?

Even if Super7 is was right, and there is nothing but black empty nothingness after we die, at least I rest assured that, because of my religion, I didn´t live my life as an a$$hole. So it is worth it.

Then again, yes, for me the purpose of my religion is to be happy –happiness implying a peaceful clean soul, faith and hope, and of course love and knowing that God loves me. I never worry about the afterlife. I don´t know what is waiting for us after we die. All I know is that I have faith in God´s mercy.

You said you had to research about your religion. But how could that be possible? How did you do it? You see, Islamic countries (including Qatar) are fierce censors when it comes to religious material. You have no access to books, publications or websites that portray islam in an objective, realistic and less favourable way. So your research must have been limited to what your Islamic country allows you to see. Why do Islamic countries make it so difficult when searching for the truth? Why do they censor religious material? Are they scared that their increasingly better educated people will be willing to read material that does not portray islam as the True Path to God?

Non Muslims: Christians, atheist, jews etc, know that the Quran is not the word of God. Many other false prophets have claimed that their religion was revealed by an angel (i.e. the founder of Mormons who said it was revealed by Angel Gabriel). Jesus predicted that false prophets would come after him, and yes they have. But God´s ways are a mystery to us and if the Quran has helped millions to reach for Him (peaceful muslims, suicide bombers, train blowers and the like are not included) then, I have no objection against Islam and I accept it as a different path to God.

And one last point. I´m not going to be hypocrite enough to claim that I would still be a Christian was I born in a muslim country and raised by a muslim family. Of course I would be a muslim. How could I be allowed to embrace any other faith?

Aisha

After the comments about them being nice I mention their teaching. I talk about the fact that they , despite being christians, believed that the other religions were valid and even that simply being good was sufficient. Christianity was just one discipline of many out there.

Actually I wasn't paying full attention to the show so some parts I guess i missed, and I guess what the palastinian said left a stronger impact on me :)

But thanks for your input!

So, I guess it's all up to God whether I'm going up or not :)

Correction( from first my reply to yalla):

In Islam we were taught not *thought

Well super7 I believe you :-) because even All Mighty Allah did praise them a great deal in Quran and said:

“you will find the nearest in love to the believers (Muslims) those who say: "We are Christians." That is because amongst them are priests and monks, and they are not proud�

( Al-Maeda, Chapter #5, Verse #82)

However, It’s not a matter of “being nice�, my dear!My argument wasn’t about that.It was about the teaching. Anyway…!

Whe I worked for KOC (Kuwait) in the late 70's early 80's. I was surprised to see some of KOC's Ahmadi hospital patients drinking what looked like milk stout. I enquired and indeed it was milk stout. It was prescribed to patients requiring "building up" particularly after Ramadhan.

I could never find out where they stored it. :(

Aisha I have had the misfortune of being exposed to christianity all my life and despite my dislike of the religion in general (alongside all the others) most of the priests have been very very nice sorts. Being a cynical type, as you know, I frequently questioned them and although they were mostly priests at very conservative british institutions I do not know one who thought the way your priest on TV thought.

In fact every single priest I spoke to although, despite following christianity as an individual, recognised all the other major religions as paths to god and considered them equally as valid.

Clearly the TV show you watched was picking some rather strange characters to interview from both sides.

I just love this verse, have another look on how merciful is Allah, see how Quran here speaks to all of mankind on a general basis without regard to their religion, race , or anything at all:

“Yes! whoever submits himself entirely to Allah and he is the doer of good (to others) he has his reward from his Lord, and there is no fear for him nor shall he grieve�

As simple as that...

Yalla, when I was watching Barbra's show I just kept reciting these verses in my heart..they so much match what the people of different religions said about heaven at her show!!

“And they say: None shall enter the garden (or paradise) except he who is a Jew or a Christian. These are their vain desires. Say: Bring your proof if you are truthful.

Yes! whoever submits himself entirely to Allah and he is the doer of good (to others) he has his reward from his Lord, and there is no fear for him nor shall he grieve.

And the Jews say: The Christians do not follow anything (good) and the Christians say: The Jews do not follow anything (good) while they recite the (same) Book. Even thus say those who have no knowledge, like to what they say; so Allah shall judge between them on the day of resurrection in what they differ.�

( Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #111-113)

And they say, "Be Jews or christians, then you will be guided." Say (to them, O Muhammad Peace be upon him ), "Nay, (We follow) only the religion of Ibrahim (Abraham), Hanifa (Islamic Monotheism, i.e. to worship none but Allah (Alone)), and he was not of Al-Mushrikoon (those who worshipped others along with Allah )

( , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #135)

Yalla, I watched the same show on abc news. They interview a Muslim sheikh, Faisal Abdul Raoof, and asked him about whhat the Palestinian said and he said: In Islam we were thought that we will never know who will go to hell and who to heaven..further more, he said that we believe that all those who believe in God will go eventually to heaven..But we don’t know and we shouldn’t judge.

One the other hand, the religious Christian man, the priest I think that Barbra interviewed said that only Christians will go to heaven, and thet president Bush will definitely go to heaven only because he is protestant . Furthermore, he said that all the protestant if they believe in Jesus they will go straightly to heaven no matter what crimes they did. And all the others will not.

Recently I saw a program called 'Heaven' presented by Barbara Walters. It was interesting to me, as personally I have not given much thought to religion in general and as although I do believe that there is a God, I can't say I am of a certain religion. and this program explored how views differed among different religions.

Anyways, the reason i bring this up is, Aisha's topic brought a question (of a slightly different note) to my mind. Although I believe there is a God, if i'm not a muslim, christian, etc., would i not go to heaven?! In the program, a muslim, albeit a Palestinian terrorist imprisoned in an Israeli prison (not surprising they would interview a Palestinien terrorist and not an Israeli terrorist, it's an American TV show after all), claimed that muslims go to heaven and christians go to...well...hell...(he did hesitate when Barbara Walters asked him directly if she would go to hell as she was not a muslim).

Well I'm pleased you believe that. Statistically it is incredibly unlikely but there you go.

Super7! Only yesterday I was thinking about that..I would certainly be a Muslim..Actually, I believe that I would’ve been a better Mulism..like some of my friends who became Muslims and I just wish to be as strong in faith as them..Nevertheless, I’m grateful that I was luckily born to a Muslim parents.

Aisha do you think you would have been a Muslim if you had been brought up in a catholic family?

Do you think you only became a muslim through your search for the truth or do you think that your upbringing may have had something to do with it?

Hey butterfly, when I said a “curse� I ment a very unpleasant situation. Yes, it’s like a curse if one “wasted� his\her life on what he thought was right. For me, the purpose of religion is not only to be happy, not in this life! as you said.

Yes. Our cultures can mislead us sometime. .but we also have minds to filter things and distinguish the right and the wrong..the good and the evil..I meant the major clear things.

I myself admit that I’ve been influenced by some traditions and really believed at that time that they were Islamic teachings..After I grow up and started learning about my religion I knew they were merely stupid traditions that Islam has nothing to do with them. Whoever, I do believe that I had to do the search. It’s not a sin to believe in them at first, but once I knew the truth or have doubts, it would have been a sin if I kept doing them knowing that they might not be what Allah asked us to do.

If one thinks that if he\she is happy and don’t care if the believe they are embracing is a fairy talea and this all is okay with them, it can never never be okay to people like me. I rather live like a trash knowing the truth, than living a happy carefree life in the shadow of my ignorance.

Super7.... As i understand it, eating or drinking prohibited things without knowledge is not considered sinful in islam. In fact, w.r.t. pork, you are allowed to eat it if it is absolutely necessary for you to survive.

Alcohol in mouthwash (and in many medicines) is also covered by the same concept (although alot of muslims would disagree). The intent is the overriding factor in all sin.

OK Super 7. I hope you find out :)

good point butterfly. Who could not like a nice bit of chorizo. Never made me ill in any month

dweller I knew that was the "real" reason it was Haram. Prok tapeworm and all that. I just wanted to know the technical religion behind it.

no need to refrigerate it. Cure it!!!!

Super, I think that you may find "pork" is classed as unclean meat and that the implication is that it will make you ill. Remember the saying in the UK "Never eat pork if there isn't an "r" in the month"?

Of course this was said in the days before refrigeration.

Imagine pork in the ME without refrigeration!

Technical religious question

A few religions have things that the followers are forbidden to consume. Pork, alcohol, shellfish etc.

Now is the act of conciously choosing to eat/drink the offending article the sin or is it a sin to consume them without knowledge?

For example if someone gave a muslim pork but didn't tell him, or spiked his drink with alcohol.

If, as seems sensible, it is only a sin if eaten conciously then surely the offending foodstuff isn't, in itself, sinful. Eating it is but not eating it isn't.

From this you might begin to question what it is about pork, whilst as proven above not inherently sinful, becomes sinful if eating conciously.

If it is sinful either way then it seems a might unfair. Especially considering that mouthwash (most brands) is 11% alcohol!

Its a feeling experienced by those who live positively and their presence is more than "nuisance value".

What is a "greater sense of spiritual accomplishment"?

perhaps meaningless bilge spouted by someone with a chip on their shoulder?

For those who are working the hard way to improve their own lives and those around them..religion is a way to GOD and a way to achieve greater sense of spiritual accomplishment...In short a personal little space in one's own life and being..

for those who have achieved financial security without moving an inch, wearing one's religion up his/her sleeve and ranting about it ad naueseum with a sense of false pride could be a way to be occupied...

Butterfly I agree with that. Of course god wouldn't mind. It would be grossly unfair if he/she did. All those who just happened to be born into Muslim countries get to heaven and all those in other countries to hell!!

And please don't let anyone suggest that you could just convert. Religion is mostly a product of upbringing.

He is not preaching, just answering a qestion :)

Besides, I totally disagree when Aisha said that if your beliefs can be a curse if it´s not THE path.

If your beliefs make you a better person and help you to enjoy your life better, then why would they be a curse. I don´t think God minds that you have been mislead by your own culture and upbringing.

And even if all religions were a "fairy tale"... What´s wrong with believing something that makes you happy?

Curse is, when your beliefs drive you to do evil things.

Gumbo stop preaching

Hello my friend, I am glad that you are searching the scriptures so that his way will be made plain to you. In Luke 4:1-14 Jesus was tempted by satan three times and on the third time, Jesus replied:

12: And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

Jesus is telling satan not to tempt him because he is God in the flesh. Interestingly enough, Luke 4:1 said

1: And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,

and in verse 14

14: And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about.

In John 14: 11 Jesus says that he is in the Father and the Father is in him. And in Luke 4:1 and 4:14 Jesus was full of the Holy Spirit, thus the concept of the "Trinity" God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. All three with different personalities but all three the same God. The "concept" of the Trinity started in Genesis 1:26 when God created man:

26: And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Whom was God talking to when we said "Let us make man in our image"? He was talking to Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

In Luke 5:20-26 Jesus heal the paralyzed man but as important was the acknowledgement of the Pharisees that Jesus is God. They knew that only God could forgive sins, but this man called Jesus forgive the paralyzed man's sins and Jesus could only do that because he was and is God.

20: And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.

21: And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?

22: But when Jesus perceived their thoughts, he answering said unto them, What reason ye in your hearts?

23: Whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Rise up and walk?

24: But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power upon earth to forgive sins, (he said unto the sick of the palsy,) I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy couch, and go into thine house.

25: And immediately he rose up before them, and took up that whereon he lay, and departed to his own house, glorifying God.

26: And they were all amazed, and they glorified God, and were filled with fear, saying, We have seen strange things to day.

In Matthew 26: 36-44, Jesus was in the Garden of Gethsemane and he knew what he was about to face, the betray of Judas, the denial of Peter but the most important thing he was about to face was to bear the sins of the world. All the sins of all people from the past to the future. How horrific that must have been and the men that he was close to wouldn't stay awake to pray with him. But Jesus always conformed to the will of his Father and became sin for us. He became that sacrificial lamb so that you and I could have eternal life and not perish and all we have to do is believe that Jesus is the way.

I hope I answered all of your questions, if not please dont hesitate in asking.

Rgds,

Gumbo

Genesis,

“learn to respect other people beliefs. That’s what our new educational system in Qatar is all about. HH shaika Moza is encouraging Qataries to embrace the discussion of religion & expose them self to other cultures and beliefs, to better understand the other & for us ‘qataries’ to achieve modernity.�

Wow, genisis this is exactly what I’m doing ,I don’t know why you think I’m not :-) Maybe it’s just my style of expressing thoughts.I’m a kinda religious person , you know :-D

By the way, respecting others doesn’t mean forgoing and giving up our believes only to please them..

Come on Genesis, don’t be that sensitive at the expense of our Islamic principles. And never mix up friendship with identity ;-) (regarding your own experience in that former post)..Salam

*Hey guys, maybe I won’t be able to reply each and every comment..busy preparing for my vacation in few days..So :-)

I cant remember reading it, but, ill make a point of reading it now.

"All things have been delivered to me by my Father; and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, or who the Father is except the Son and any one to whom the Son chooses to reveal him." Luke 10:22

The Father judges no none but has given all judgement to the Son, that all may honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He who does not honour the Son does not honour the Father who sent him." John 5:22-23

Speaking of the day of his return he said that no one knows the day, "not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only" (Matthew 24:36). Here there is a clear progression of authority, viz. men - angels - the Son - the Father.

The statement "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30) made by Jesus

When he prayed to the father for the resurrection of Lazarous: "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall be live, and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die." John 11:25

And about the Holy Spirit

26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

No that was the extract. The original post (25 pages of A4) debate the origins of teh koran itself.

Despite the distinct lack of critical evaluation of the koran (for obvious reasons) there appears to be plenty of room for doubt about it being an unadulterated document.

I don't know how to post attachments in this or I would include it for you. The original text is at http://www.qatarliving.com/node/1078?page=2

but it was posted in reply to something you said so perhaps you have already read it.

I think we are both right. What you refer to is the "hadith". A text that serves as a code of conduct and basically relates to situations during the life of muhammad. Muslims use it as a reference for how islam is imbodied in their daily life. Muslims do not believe this is the word of god.

The quran on the other hand is considered to be an unadultered revealed message and the method and dates i mention above are related to this.

Not sure it is incorrect. From an earlier post of mine (node 1078)

"The Prophet Muhammad died in 632 C.E. The earliest material on his life that we possess was written by Ibn Ishaq in 750 C.E., in other words, a hundred twenty years after Muhammad’s death. The question of authenticity becomes even more critical, because the original form of Ibn Ishaq’s work is lost and is only available in parts in a later recension by Ibn Hisham who died in 834 C.E., two hundred years after the death of the Prophet.

The Hadith are a collection of sayings and doings attributed to the Prophet and traced back to him through a series of putatively trustworthy witnesses (any particular chain of transmitters is called an isnad). "

Butterfly. I would really be interested to read the new testament verse(s) that show the trinity being taught be jesus. Could you point me to it (and tell me which version too).

i wasnt avoiding a question, in fact you didnt ask one. you put forward an opinion which you expect a rebuttal for.

in fact, your statement concerning a committee writing the koran hundreds of years later is incorrect. What you are in fact referring to is the collation of hundreds of individual written texts . This collation was done by the caliph uthman in 653AD, 21 after muhammads death.

Now, whether one believes that this collation was executed in a manner that preserved the integrity of the original message is entirely upto the individual.

I, like you super, dont take things at face value. The concept of the trinity is something i have never been able to grasp.

I am just trying to illustrate (a point that you have made previously) that regardless of the religion, followers will follow blindly without desire to form individual opinions based on the available evidence.

I´m sorry it doesn´t make sense to you. It does make perfect sense to me and that´s what matters.

You are a muslim, so will not be able to read the new testament with an open mind. You have your own preconceptions. Just as I have mine, and I will never understand Islam.

You see, Jesus predicted the coming of and Antichrist, who he describes as a false prhofet of God. I interpret this not just one, but as many, like Bush for example (He says God talks to him), or even like some past catholic Popes, and like the phrofet of Islam. Antichrists justify killings in the name of God. So I will never be able to understand Islam with an open mind. And that´s my problem and what makes sense to me.

I didn´t even know that the theory of Trinity came only after 400 years. In fact, if you were bothered to read the New Testament you will see that the Trinity (the Father the Son and the Conforter as one God) was formulated by Jesus himself.

Don't avoid mine!

Im sorry, it doesnt make sense to me. Im not just being flippant, i honestly cant get my head round the concept.

Leaving that aside. Why didnt the disciples follow this concept? were they misinformed? werent they the most qualified people to back up this theory? why did it take 400 years to formulate it?

"He certainly goes out of his way to make a distinction between him and the father".

Of course he does.

I hope the below helps you to understand.

We believe that God is a Supreme Being in a threefold unity of persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and that the Son alone took human form as the man Christ Jesus.

We do believe that the Son is subject to the authority of the Father (the very titles imply an equality in essence and nature between them on the one hand and the subjection of one to the other on the other hand).

We do also believe that the Son was sent into the world according to the Father's purpose and will, as Jesus himself said: "I came not of my own accord but he sent me" (John 8:42).

Likewise we accept that he does nothing of his own accord but only what the Father wills and does and, because he is the eternal Son of God, has omnipotent power to put this divine will and activity into effect (John 5:19). These are basic Christian teachings.

The fundamental difference between the Christian and Muslim concepts of Christ is not in their understanding of his subjection to a higher authority, nor in their common conviction that he was a human being in every respect while on earth. With Muslims, we accept that he spoke only as he was commanded to speak (John 12:49) and that there is one greater than he (John 14:28). We differ primarily in our beliefs about his nature for Islam allows him no more than humanity and prophethood, whereas Christianity teaches that God spoke through him, not as a prophet, but as a Son through whom he made all things, who reflects his glory, and who "bears the very stamp of his nature" (Hebrews 1:3).

Giasi you are correct about the trinity but this is surely the opportunity for you to show your balance by listing all the evidence that the quran was in fact written by committee hundreds of years after Moh'ds death.

For me the only preferable thing about Christianity (other than acceptance of beer)is that most christians do not believe the bible is the word of god but more allegorical in nature.

If muslims could come around to the clear FACT that the quran was a human creation by many humans then the religion may not have so many issues associated with hard liners. It is much easier to kill and kill yourself when you think what you're doing is based on gods literal word than the interpretations of someone living 1400 years ago.

Gumbo. You either refuse to answer my question or there is no answer. Tell me where jesus, by his own lips, says "i am god, worship me" please dont quote commentaries by others because they are totally invalid.

while youre at it, could you explain the following verses to me. Seems to me (if the below verses are true), that jesus was being hypocritical to say the least. What was he trying to do? confuse his followers?

Matthew 26:36-44

36. Then Jesus went with his disciples to a place called Gethsemane, and he said to them, "Sit here while I go over there and pray."

37. He took Peter and the two sons of Zebedee along with him, and he began to be sorrowful and troubled.

38. Then he said to them, "My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me."

39. Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."

40. Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. "Could you men not keep watch with me for one hour?" he asked Peter.

41. "Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak."

42. He went away a second time and prayed, "My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done."

43. When he came back, he again found them sleeping, because their eyes were heavy.

44. So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third time, SAYING THE SAME THING.

As a final note, the concept of the Trinity was not introduced into christianity until nearly 400 years AFTER jesus left this earth.

ok.... about my previous comment i think i wasnt able to explain my point...

every religon is the answer of three main questions (even atheists)

who created us?

why are we created?

what is the end of it?

and no matter what each of us believe in ... we have to have answers for these questions...

and what i meant to say is that we cant just dont have an answer for the third question... yes there will be too many different answers...thats why there is too many different religons ... some are logical to you some are not ... yes there is people who dont believe in the day of reckoning and are still morals... but those are not the majority and history proves how seeking power, wealth and territories made humans as selfish as the could be .... i guess it differs between being moral (and thats the only thing you can do) and being moral while you have a huge power and ability not to....

about the point of "thinking that we are right and the rest are wrong" well... if you believe in something ofcourse you think its right ... that is acceptable ..

i think its also acceptable to talk to people about your believe and discuss... and the one that has a more powerful reasoning can convince the other of his believe ... there is nothing wrong about that ... the wrong this is if you FORCE someone to change his believe....

i dont want to get into the debate you got about christianity and islam ... because i think that these discussions are out of rationality ... and as soon as its written in fourms ... it becomes a matter of attacking and attacking back and an argument just for the sake of argument but not for seeking the truth...

when people read they feel they are obliged to reply and defend... which believe it or not its not gonna end :)

What was the whole point of this discussion?

Was it the less-then-ordinary movie or Islam VS. Christianity?

The only reason the fiction is intriguing, is the theory that claims that there are other gospels then the ones followed by the Christians worldwide. The rest is nonsense.

Dear Aisha there is no point in the “us or them� discussion, learn to respect other people beliefs. That’s what our new educational system in Qatar is all about. HH shaika Moza is encouraging Qataries to embrace the discussion of religion & expose them self to other cultures and beliefs, to better understand the other & for us ‘qataries’ to achieve modernity.

I hope you got my point.

Take care & have a nice day

Thank you guys for your valuable comments :-) all appreciated.

Fahad,

"then why have morals and strive for good ??

Lots of atheists, and people who don't believe in the Day of Reckoning, are actually very moral people and don't go around robbing and raping people. There are lots of reasons to be moral other than fear, don't you think?

Thank you. You explained so well.

I only disagree with one thing: "All anyone has to do is to choose to believe that Jesus is the only way to Heaven".

God is with everyone, this is the Holy Spirit, the Conforter. Everywhere. Which give us our nature to do good and to regret our wrong doings. I believe that even non-believers in Jesus are touched by the Holy Spirit, and can reach Heaven just the same.

well, if Muslims offend christians by saying Jesus (pbuh) is Messenger of God, than I think Christians offend us more because they call our beloved prophet issa ( I mean Jesus (peace be upon him)) as their son of God , and it is very clear that jesus never claimed as God or son of God. so it is clearly true lies and unjustice that Christians tell that Jesus claimed son of God while he never did so .

On the other hand. we cant offend any people I think because we believe and respect each and every prophet . for example when the danish news paper published the cartoons of prophet Muhammed (pbuh) all Muslims worldwide has been offended. but Muslims cant do anythinng. they cant abuse Jesus (pbuh) because they believe him.

so you can recalculate your mind and think with open mind , Islam is the truth believe it or not , we are not sorry for being muslims , and we wont be sorry for what we believe . and one more I would love that everyone would become Muslim because I know it is the truth. but still we believe in freedon of faith so everyone has the right to believe what he/she wants.

GIASI

I am glad that you had the opportunity to read those passages. I belive that your question lies in The Trinity? How was it that a perfect, sovereign God could and did place himself in the body of the Jesus and leave us with the Comforter, The Holy Spirit when Jesus accended to Heaven? God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are all one which is what the Bible says.

John 1:1 and 1:14

1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

14: And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

The Word is Jesus and the Word is God.

When Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden, God had did not want them to die in their sins so he sent himself in the form of Christ Jesus to be sin for the world. God can not and will not tolerate sin because He is Holy and Perfect, but he loved us so much that he sent us a sacrifice, Jesus to die for us. God could have made us robots forced to do whatever he said, but He did not, He gave us free will to make choices and decisions.

The reason why the chief Jewish priests wanted to kill Jesus was because He claimed to be God, which was blasephemy to them.

Jesus came and died on the cross so that we would not be eternally condemed to hell but that we may have eternal life in Heaven. All anyone has to do is to choose to believe that Jesus is the only way to Heaven.

I hope this helps.

Rgds,

Gumbo

only because you may not understand it let others beleive what they want to. You are leaning to far out of the window!!!

Fahad,

no one has come back from the dead (literaly)to tell us about heaven or paradise.

It is beleived that Moses was given the 10 Commandments in order to bring unruly people some discipline in their lives. Who knows who gave them to him? We all beleive the handed down stories

A great many people no matter what religeon have false morals. We all have to live according to our own beliefs.

One person believes and thinks very highly of God.

The other doesn't believe in God but is still helps others and does not turn to rape and robbery.

However, I believe there is a small crook in every one of us - it is just playing the game and not getting caught - we are all afraid of punishments.

How can life be meaningless even being a non-believer we have come so far in so few years

we are all half way educated and have started asking questions about our religeon.

All in all I was told when I was young - you pratice what your preached - perhaps the preachers and the teachers were not so good at it!

christianity is a very confusing religion ..

there are too many holy books, the Bible, The Trinity, The Old Testament,Gospel According to Matthew ,Old Testament ..

Which book you should believe ..

the only book we must believe in as muslims is the Quran .. that's the reason for islam being simple and peaceful ..

((Allah is the only god .. if you disagree you will go to the hell ..))

this is written in our quran ..And i believe in it

lastly .. everybody has the right to believe in what they believe in ..

Yes you are right - everybody has the right to believe in what they believe in and who has the right to criticise others??

Thank you guys for the comments. I appreciate it :-)

Being fully convinced of what you embraced is a blessing .though it can be a curse if it wasn’t THE path. Do I think that what I believe in is the best? Yes of course I do! Am I sorry about that? Not at all!..Do I think that it’s not right to express that in public? Not at all. Do I respect the other believes? Absolutely! DoI have any intention of demeaning others’ believes? Hell, NO!..

I hope I made things clear :-) from my side.

Well Well Well it is here at last, and I waited two hours to get in and see it as my friend ordered the tickets for the late show.

Aisha - I missed most of the film because all the Qatari females/males in the rows in front of me spent most of their time on their mobile phones or were chatting or were sending messages their little screens lighting up in the dark every few seconds with the photos of both genders appearing on the screen. We even had a family with a crying baby there.

However, much against my expectations the film was an asolute bore after the first 10 minutes, and had I not been so polite, I would have left after that - instead I sat through the biggest bin of garbage I have ever seen in my life - I would have gone to sleep had the other human beings who surrounded me given me a little piece and quiet.

Against all the beliefs that this film might lead you in to a deeper or darket secret of the catholic church - it did not. It was more like a fairy tale in a kind of criminal style if ther is such a thing. LOL Even if Christ was married to Mary Magdaline who cares in the end?

I have only heard that the book is worth reading - as far as I am concerned the film is definately not worth QR 30,-- nor the time I spent there.

fahad is the only reason you follow society's rules because you are afraid of punishment?

I refer you to my comments on traffic lights on another post

http://www.qatarliving.com/node/1301

We are all going to die, there is no heaven, you'll be dead and won't know about it for all eternity. Toughen up and deal with it

then why have morals and strive for good ?? why not just be selfish rob- rape- get whatever you want and satisfy your thurst? if there is no punishments nor rewards for good and bad ...life will be meaningless

It is all a fictional fairy tale anyway (and I don't mean the Da Vinci code) so who cares.

It offends me that so many people seem to spend so much of their valuable time learning and studying it.

We are all going to die, there is no heaven, you'll be dead and won't know about it for all eternity. Toughen up and deal with it

to be totally honest gumbo, everything you have quoted seems to reinforce the fact that he never claimed to be god. He certainly goes out of his way to make a distinction between him and the father.

Giasi

Below is the Bible passages in response to your questions. The first four books of the New Testament are loaded with passages that prove that Jesus is God.

6: Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

7: If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

8: Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9: Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

10: Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

11: Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

12: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

13: And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

14: If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

15: If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16: And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17: Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18: I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19: Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20: At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21: He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22: Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23: Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

24: He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

25: These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

26: But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

27: Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

28: Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

29: And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.

30: Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

31: But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.

Hope you found this helpful.

Rgds,

Gumbo

I´m not offended. I´m annoyed that this islamic websites are always comparing Islam with Christianity. However, this same people are very quick to censor when Christians portray their religion as a better one than Islam.

However, I don´t believe my religion is better than yours. You have yours and I have mine. I don´t know what is this waste of time about, Muslims always trying to persuade everyone that Islam is the only true word, blah blah blah. I don´t go araound trying to persuade people of other faiths than christianity is the only way to reach to God. I was taught that other faiths are just as acceptable, because that´s the way God wants to shape other souls. And it is not for me to judge that or to try to change God´s will.

Giasi, your comment is beyond retard. Did Jesus ever wrote the Bible? Duh....Of course the life of Jesus is told by someone else. I show you already the quotes in the New testament.

Thanks alot sister Aisha for this thread and for the last reply

you said exactly what i wanted to do so ...

i havent seen the movie yet every day i plan to do so and something happens ... but i will do so ...eventually

Thanks

Can anyone show me ANYWHERE in the bible (any version) where Jesus is QUOTED as saying "i am God, worship me"? or words to that effect. quoting someone else who believes Jesus is God is not acceptable.

Quite the contrary, there are many passages in the bible where Jesus bows down and prays to God.

Butterfly, of course it doesn’t relate to the novel’s details coz the site itself aint concerned with such stuff..It’s just commenting on what Muslims believe, that God is One and should be worshiped with no partners.I Like it that they used the newest thing. And I don’t know why are you so upset with an Islamic site though you’re not Muslim..You don’t approve it anyway :-) SO calm down..

If you see that calling Jesus, peace be upon him, a prophet and messenger of God, in that context, is making you offended, as you said, then I’m sorry but it seems that the whole Qur’an is offending you by insisting on that. It’s funny how we weren’t offended by so many things you believe in only because we respect the differences ( made by humans). Though our book is one and yours turned to be limited to four that were finally approved by the church after a while. Let alone the others.

By the way, Jesus christ, peace be upon him, is highly respected by Muslims..We don’t approve portraying him the way the western media does. We don’t approve the jokes on him like the jokes done even by those who see him as god. We believe that if we didn’t believe in him and his message of the One and only God we won’t even enter Jannah\heaven. What is funny is that you didn’t say that those things, that we see as a sort of blasphemy,are offending you, though it’s done by people calling themselves Christians.. and yet, the Muslims offend you by expressing what they have always believed in.

Please butterfly don’t be offended by what I said; this is the only thing I can’t be sorry about if it offended anyone.

The Messiah, son of Mary, was no other than a messenger, messengers (the like of whom) had passed away before him. And his mother was a saintly woman. And they both used to eat (earthly) food. See how We make the revelations clear for them, and see how they are turned away!

(Al-Maeda, Chapter #5, Verse #75)

And when Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah? he saith: Be glorified! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right. If I used to say it, then Thou knewest it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy Mind. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower of Things Hidden?

(Al-Maeda, Chapter #5, Verse #116)

By the way, one of my uncles is Muhammed and the other is Jesus (Isah) .. Hope my second uncle's name offends no one.

Must admit that It feels good to be moderate between two members, one saying that the messenger of God is a god and other saying that he is merely story teller. Wow!

Guys, let’s talk about the movie…way better :-D

I have a differing take on this..though the attempt of the website is to glorify Islam and demean Christianity..The Responses to "Da Vinci Code" reveal a different story...Its that Christianity is not affected at all by people's opinion..And everyone can question anything he likes without death staring him in the face..

Did some one remember the "mass hysteria" witnessed recently in case of another controversy??

Coming from a free and open society where freedom of speach and expression are cherished values..I find Christianity strengthend by Da Vinci Code..not weakend by it...

and there is a lesson in it for the website which it will never get..

How abt the "SeArChEr CoDe"...

There are no Religion in this World. It all started few thousands years back where a group of story-teller come up with the biggest & most fantastic Story of all time.

It is Human who misinterpret the Story after generations of passing-down & those story-tellers became the "Messengers"!! WoW.. try this CODE !! How does it feel if the Truth are, WE create Religion & there was nobody else

The one who wrote that doesn´t know much about what he is writting. It doesn´t even relate to the book!

"Jesus came with one message: Worship, love, obey and submit to the one true God, Allah, the creator of everything and do not worship anything besides Allah. That was the message of Jesus?" Has actually the man who wrote that bothered to read the New testament? Funny.

"According to the oldest and most authentic copies of manuscipts and scrolls available throughout the centuries" Ok, right, and that manuscript would be? That´s a breakthru discovery! Please... Very Funny.

"in’t it time you join Jesus, the son of Mary, along with all of the other Prophets of Allah and practice the "Submission to the Will of God" (Islam)?"

Now, Is that message directed to Christians or what? Because any Christian will be offended to see the name of Jesus in that context. And that´s because we believe that Jesus Christ is God coming to us.

Thank you guys for replying :-)

Butterfly, why “Sorry Aisha� ? It’s okayyy it’s your opinion :-D

About the link, I like it because I think it’s interesting that there are Muslims around who are aware of the changes and the new books,movies..etc And they criticize them and even agree with what harmonize with their believes, though it’s not Islamic. What’s wrong with taking any possible chances to let people know about one’s religion , especially if people misunderstand that belief so bad..That’s a good thing!!

And I’m glad that Islamic sites make you laugh. Though I don’t think preaching is that comical…but it’s your opinion. I understand :-D

Lets not forget that the book is a fiction novel.

The film isn't half as good as the book

I had to laugh when I read that. This is a clear example that this proislam website is using the hysteria surronding the film to suit its preachings.

There are many things that I consider wrong and false with this text.

Jesus, as a matter of fact claimed to be the son of god:

1)The ONLY WAY to God (i.e. The Messiah) [John 4:26, John 14:6-7]. He said that only those who believe in His Name and trust Him would enter into heaven [John 3:16-18, 33-36; John 4:26; John 5:22-23,John 8:24]

2) The Light of the world [John 8:12]

3) The very Son of God [Mark 14:61-62]

4) He offers eternal life to those who believe in Him [John 6:27]

5) The Judge of all humanity [John 5:27]

6) He gives new life to those who trust Him for their salvation [John 3:6, 10:10a; 2 Corinthians 5:17]

this movie sounds great ..

I'll be there 2morrow ..