Faith is not something that we can produce for ourselves. It is not something that we can simply decide to have. We cannot turn it on like a water faucet; it does not work that way.
There are of course many Christians, mostly from a conservative or fundamentalist background which would share this same perspective (albeit with a different set of Scriptures).
Gypsy earlier said "I don't need fear of God to be a good person." and "no one else will believe in me if I don't."
I am a Christian but not in the stream that most people are used to. If there is an afterlife, then I think there is only heaven. The Christian scriptures say very little about hell and what they do say was mostly and probably added after the fact (this was all before photocopiers). Even the word "Satan" in Hebrew means "accuser". He's not an evil dude; in the book of Job, he's one of God's servants like the prosecutor in a court case--a member of the team.
In my understanding, if there is a hell, it is what we make it. When GW Bush finds himself in heaven with Osama bin Laden, do you think the two of them will ever be able to accept the fact that this is heaven? No, for them it will be a hell (maybe heaven for the rest of us if we can watch them though). LOL
I don't see God as someone to fear. I don't see faith as something to get me a free pass into the pearly gates. I have faith because I feel the love of God and I know that love through the sacrifice of Jesus. Faith in me is my attempt to respond to that love and help it grow. That love is there whether I accept it or not.
It's like growing up. I wasn't always the best kid and I didn't always make things easy for my parents, but I have grown to the point where I know now that their love has carried me through a lot of crap and garbage that I wouldn't have made it through on my own. For that I honour them.
I try to live my faith because on my own, I can be a real jerk. Faith brings out the best in me.
I also have to thank everyone for making this a very interesting and heartfelt thread. I can appreciate the vulnerability that an issue like this creates for people. I hope we all continue to honour each other as we share.
Sinned, in Islam there is no such thing as “being saved”. As the verse I mentioned earlier said:
“…The day that some of the signs of your Lord do come, no good will it do to a person to believe then, if he believed not before, nor earned good (deeds) through his faith….” (Qur'an 6:158)
One’s good and bad will be measured. Some good deeds are better then others and likewise some bad are worse then others. For instance if I give a million dollars in charity and help countless people, but my inner intention was not so that God would be pleased, but was so that I would be lauded and praised and be known as a “charitable person” – then such a deed will not be accepted.
How does one ultimately know what is good or bad? What is good to some might be bad to others. For instance, a man might see a woman who covers her hair (wearing hijab) and say
“Oh how awful, she is not sharing her beauty with us, what a bad thing.”
Whereas in the sight of God in fact it is modest and good thing that can be traced back to the earliest Religions.
Knowledge is powerful thing - the first word revealed in Islam was "Read!" - learn, seek knowledge :)
"What's more important from a faith perspective? Being saved? Or doing good works?"
Doing good works is important for me, I don't need to be save because all I know I will be six feet under at some point and nothing can stop that! If there's "after" after that, then I will figure it out how will I survive or do I really need to be saved?
Gypsy, I understand the distinction you're making. However the reason I link the two, Atheist and Agnostic, is because many critics of Agnostic creed ascertain that at its core it is still a form of disbelief. For example,
The Case Against God, the authors argument against agnostic theism is that it is contradictory to state that a being is inherently or currently unknowable, and yet positively assert a belief in its existence. He argues:
"One cannot possibly know that something exists without some knowledge of what it is that exists."
I agree with the author because how can a person be called a “believer” if he has knowledge of what or who he truly believes in.
This is why in Islam, knowledge comes before faith or submission – blind faith is unacceptable. This is why the Qur’an (God) said:
“So know that there is no god but Allah…” (Qur’an 47:19)
Knowledge in fact precedes faith. Knowledge leads to ones submission, through submission and good deeds, faith is planted into the heart.
Early converts used to say “We Believe” – and the response was:
“….Say: You do not believe but say, We submit; for the faith has not yet entered into your hearts; and if you obey God and His Messenger, He will not diminish aught of your deeds; surely God is Forgiving, Merciful. (Qur’an 49:14)
So in fact we say true faith is something God writes on the heart upon ones submission, through knowledge and seeking of the truth, and we say blind faith without knowledge is not acceptable.
Likewise, we say that the people of disbelief won’t be criticized merely for disbelief, but criticized for not using their intellect, contemplating, or giving sincere thought to such a deep topic.
They will say: "Yes indeed; a Warner did come to us, but we rejected him and said, ‘God never sent down any (Message)…They will further say: "Had we but listened or used our intelligence, we should not (now) be among the Companions of the Blazing Fire!" (Qur'an 67:9-10)
If anyone is interested in learning more, with an open mind of course, please drop me a line :)
Abu Imann that's not true. There would be plenty of agnostics, after all agnosticism means you believe in God but you don't subscribe to any particular religion. Personally I think you'd wind up with a boatload of agnostics.
[img_assist|nid=13228|title=I feel your scorn and I accept it-Jon Stewart|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=180|height=180]
Faith and good deeds go hand in hand. Most scriptures link the two and in the Qur’an they are almost always linked.
“…The day that some of the signs of your Lord do come, no good will it do to a person to believe then, if he believed not before, nor earned good (deeds) through his faith….” (Qur'an 6:158)
However, the deed is done to please God, not just for the sake of being a good person, although a person does derive some personal satisfaction in helping others. This is why we say in the Sight of God (not ours) Belief in God is the ultimate good deed, while rejection of Him is the worst of deeds, no matter how generous or caring the person may have appeared to be or may have actually been.
But the bottom line is, the brutal truth actually, is that there really aren’t any atheists or agnostics on a sinking ship. In other words when confronted with death suddenly everyone is a believer. :)
Unless of course a person is being totally dishonest with himself.
Without faith there is no hope and no reason! Faith without good deads is religion. Wizmotr's position on legitimacy is however relevant when looking at what motivates someone to carry out a good dead.
Faith builds me confidence that I could be a good person and it helps me live my existence with responsibility of doing good deeds that I owe to this world.
I believe that it is better to tell the truth than a lie. I believe it is better to be free than to be a slave. And I believe it is better to know than to be ignorant.
[img_assist|nid=20481|title=" try me "|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=180|height=180]
That is exactly my point, you feel I am 'misinformed' and greatly misguided because I refuse to believe in books that were written centuries ago and have not contributed positvely to science, technology, or anything relevant in modern times for that matter. Why do you care whether I believe or not? That's the problem with most religious folks, they 'pity' poor ol' folks on the path of the misguided ones, lol.
I don't believe in any of the religious crap, most of the time the biggest pyschos and hypocrites are usually the religious folks. I try to be a good person and treat people based on their personality rather than faith.
Cause I don't have a choice not to, no one else will believe in me if I don't. I do a good thing, people see that, they develop a faith in me and in turn that helps me develop faith in myself. However if I had never tried to do something good I would never know I could.
[img_assist|nid=13228|title=I feel your scorn and I accept it-Jon Stewart|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=180|height=180]
“Keep your dreams alive. Understand to achieve anything requires faith and belief in yourself, vision, hard work, determination, and dedication. Remember all things are possible for those who believe.”
[img_assist|nid=20481|title=" try me "|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=180|height=180]
Faith in What? I have no faith in God, but I try to be a good person and do good work. Therefore good works are more important then faith. I don't need fear of God to be a good person.
[img_assist|nid=13228|title=I feel your scorn and I accept it-Jon Stewart|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=180|height=180]
Here's the rub! What's legitimate. It can't be action alone can it? If so what's the different between Dietrich Bonhoffer (a German theologian) participating in a plot to assassinate Hitler and a father hearing voices "from God" telling him to murder his own child?
I think the action needs to be tied to love. What is the loving thing(s) to do? How do I make this world a better place by my being in it?
But even then, IMO faith comes first or else the actions can only be selfishly (albeit maybe intelligently) motivated: "I'm doing it for the reward, and *NOT* because it's the right thing to do."
Why all the talk about hijacking it? Some issues might be emotional, but surely we can talk about them. If people get too empassioned that rationality goes out the door, then we stop and try again another day. If we only talk about what we feel comfortable with then sex education will always come too late.
So the question: is faith more important than good works?
I'll bite and say "Yes." On my own, I will never choose to believe in God preferring to think of myself as my own god (a sentiment implied at least in part by those wanting to hijack this thread and by jack's posting above). IMO, true faith only comes when I realize that on my own, I am at base a selfish, greedy individual only working out my own survival. In such a mindset, even good works are never truly "good" or charitable, but only acts based on vested self interest ("There but for the grace of God go I...").
I'd even go so far as to say that "Faith" is not me choosing God, but God choosing me.
no no no please no religion and faith discussions it is a private matter, let it be private only, now whatever happening all over the world, this is due to religion only, if this would have been stayed private with everyone, today this world would have much happier and nicest place to live on.
Religion is a deep topic and that is why the phrase “Don’t discuss Religion and Politics” is so popular. I especially don’t like talking about Religion on forums because unfortunately it usually leads to people heatedly expressing their preconceived notions or flaming one another.
Truly learning about different Religions can be very educational and for some enlightening, if the source of knowledge is authentic that is.
I can tell you though that it is really unfair to base any Religion by the works of a minority of its followers. Every creed has its good and bad, and although it may be a convenient rationalization to make sweeping generalities as a reason to disregard Religion entirely, it’s truly an insincere approach.
After all, a great many Religions claim that Heaven and Hell are the end; eternal happiness or eternal suffering. With stakes so high, considering how much time a person has in his life, shouldn’t at least a few sincere moments be spent learning?
Well, so anyways, I am a Muslim and if you are ever interested in learning about Islam, please drop me a line and I would be more then happy to talk more.
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There are of course many Christians, mostly from a conservative or fundamentalist background which would share this same perspective (albeit with a different set of Scriptures).
Gypsy earlier said "I don't need fear of God to be a good person." and "no one else will believe in me if I don't."
I am a Christian but not in the stream that most people are used to. If there is an afterlife, then I think there is only heaven. The Christian scriptures say very little about hell and what they do say was mostly and probably added after the fact (this was all before photocopiers). Even the word "Satan" in Hebrew means "accuser". He's not an evil dude; in the book of Job, he's one of God's servants like the prosecutor in a court case--a member of the team.
In my understanding, if there is a hell, it is what we make it. When GW Bush finds himself in heaven with Osama bin Laden, do you think the two of them will ever be able to accept the fact that this is heaven? No, for them it will be a hell (maybe heaven for the rest of us if we can watch them though). LOL
I don't see God as someone to fear. I don't see faith as something to get me a free pass into the pearly gates. I have faith because I feel the love of God and I know that love through the sacrifice of Jesus. Faith in me is my attempt to respond to that love and help it grow. That love is there whether I accept it or not.
It's like growing up. I wasn't always the best kid and I didn't always make things easy for my parents, but I have grown to the point where I know now that their love has carried me through a lot of crap and garbage that I wouldn't have made it through on my own. For that I honour them.
I try to live my faith because on my own, I can be a real jerk. Faith brings out the best in me.
I also have to thank everyone for making this a very interesting and heartfelt thread. I can appreciate the vulnerability that an issue like this creates for people. I hope we all continue to honour each other as we share.
Sinned, in Islam there is no such thing as “being saved”. As the verse I mentioned earlier said:
“…The day that some of the signs of your Lord do come, no good will it do to a person to believe then, if he believed not before, nor earned good (deeds) through his faith….” (Qur'an 6:158)
One’s good and bad will be measured. Some good deeds are better then others and likewise some bad are worse then others. For instance if I give a million dollars in charity and help countless people, but my inner intention was not so that God would be pleased, but was so that I would be lauded and praised and be known as a “charitable person” – then such a deed will not be accepted.
How does one ultimately know what is good or bad? What is good to some might be bad to others. For instance, a man might see a woman who covers her hair (wearing hijab) and say
“Oh how awful, she is not sharing her beauty with us, what a bad thing.”
Whereas in the sight of God in fact it is modest and good thing that can be traced back to the earliest Religions.
Knowledge is powerful thing - the first word revealed in Islam was "Read!" - learn, seek knowledge :)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
You can find me on facebook. Amar Chaudhary, location, Qatar.
"I’d say in a given week I probably only do about 15 minutes of real actual work." - Peter, Office Space
"What's more important from a faith perspective? Being saved? Or doing good works?"
Doing good works is important for me, I don't need to be save because all I know I will be six feet under at some point and nothing can stop that! If there's "after" after that, then I will figure it out how will I survive or do I really need to be saved?
Cheers,
HONESTY is HARD ATTRIBUTE to FIND"
Gypsy, I understand the distinction you're making. However the reason I link the two, Atheist and Agnostic, is because many critics of Agnostic creed ascertain that at its core it is still a form of disbelief. For example,
The Case Against God, the authors argument against agnostic theism is that it is contradictory to state that a being is inherently or currently unknowable, and yet positively assert a belief in its existence. He argues:
"One cannot possibly know that something exists without some knowledge of what it is that exists."
I agree with the author because how can a person be called a “believer” if he has knowledge of what or who he truly believes in.
This is why in Islam, knowledge comes before faith or submission – blind faith is unacceptable. This is why the Qur’an (God) said:
“So know that there is no god but Allah…” (Qur’an 47:19)
Knowledge in fact precedes faith. Knowledge leads to ones submission, through submission and good deeds, faith is planted into the heart.
Early converts used to say “We Believe” – and the response was:
“….Say: You do not believe but say, We submit; for the faith has not yet entered into your hearts; and if you obey God and His Messenger, He will not diminish aught of your deeds; surely God is Forgiving, Merciful. (Qur’an 49:14)
So in fact we say true faith is something God writes on the heart upon ones submission, through knowledge and seeking of the truth, and we say blind faith without knowledge is not acceptable.
Likewise, we say that the people of disbelief won’t be criticized merely for disbelief, but criticized for not using their intellect, contemplating, or giving sincere thought to such a deep topic.
They will say: "Yes indeed; a Warner did come to us, but we rejected him and said, ‘God never sent down any (Message)…They will further say: "Had we but listened or used our intelligence, we should not (now) be among the Companions of the Blazing Fire!" (Qur'an 67:9-10)
If anyone is interested in learning more, with an open mind of course, please drop me a line :)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
You can find me on facebook. Amar Chaudhary, location, Qatar.
"I’d say in a given week I probably only do about 15 minutes of real actual work." - Peter, Office Space
What's more important from a faith perspective? Being saved? Or doing good works?
[img_assist|nid=20481|title=" try me "|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=180|height=180]
Abu Imann that's not true. There would be plenty of agnostics, after all agnosticism means you believe in God but you don't subscribe to any particular religion. Personally I think you'd wind up with a boatload of agnostics.
[img_assist|nid=13228|title=I feel your scorn and I accept it-Jon Stewart|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=180|height=180]
1)Works only will get you saved
2)A combination of works and faith will get you saved
3)Faith alone will save you
[img_assist|nid=20481|title=" try me "|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=180|height=180]
[img_assist|nid=20481|title=" try me "|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=180|height=180]
Faith and good deeds go hand in hand. Most scriptures link the two and in the Qur’an they are almost always linked.
“…The day that some of the signs of your Lord do come, no good will it do to a person to believe then, if he believed not before, nor earned good (deeds) through his faith….” (Qur'an 6:158)
However, the deed is done to please God, not just for the sake of being a good person, although a person does derive some personal satisfaction in helping others. This is why we say in the Sight of God (not ours) Belief in God is the ultimate good deed, while rejection of Him is the worst of deeds, no matter how generous or caring the person may have appeared to be or may have actually been.
But the bottom line is, the brutal truth actually, is that there really aren’t any atheists or agnostics on a sinking ship. In other words when confronted with death suddenly everyone is a believer. :)
Unless of course a person is being totally dishonest with himself.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
You can find me on facebook. Amar Chaudhary, location, Qatar.
"Did I not give you lives long enough, so that whosoever would receive admonition could receive it? And the warners came to you....” (Qur’an 35:37)
[img_assist|nid=20481|title=" try me "|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=180|height=180]
Without faith there is no hope and no reason! Faith without good deads is religion. Wizmotr's position on legitimacy is however relevant when looking at what motivates someone to carry out a good dead.
Faith builds me confidence that I could be a good person and it helps me live my existence with responsibility of doing good deeds that I owe to this world.
Cheers,
"HONESTY is HARD ATTRIBUTE to FIND"
Just make sure you have a conscience.
I believe that it is better to tell the truth than a lie. I believe it is better to be free than to be a slave. And I believe it is better to know than to be ignorant.
[img_assist|nid=20481|title=" try me "|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=180|height=180]
That is exactly my point, you feel I am 'misinformed' and greatly misguided because I refuse to believe in books that were written centuries ago and have not contributed positvely to science, technology, or anything relevant in modern times for that matter. Why do you care whether I believe or not? That's the problem with most religious folks, they 'pity' poor ol' folks on the path of the misguided ones, lol.
“To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible.”
[img_assist|nid=20481|title=" try me "|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=180|height=180]
I don't believe in any of the religious crap, most of the time the biggest pyschos and hypocrites are usually the religious folks. I try to be a good person and treat people based on their personality rather than faith.
Cause I don't have a choice not to, no one else will believe in me if I don't. I do a good thing, people see that, they develop a faith in me and in turn that helps me develop faith in myself. However if I had never tried to do something good I would never know I could.
[img_assist|nid=13228|title=I feel your scorn and I accept it-Jon Stewart|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=180|height=180]
“To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible.”
[img_assist|nid=20481|title=" try me "|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=180|height=180]
[img_assist|nid=20481|title=" try me "|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=180|height=180]
Believe in what? Believe in me, sure I believe in me.
[img_assist|nid=13228|title=I feel your scorn and I accept it-Jon Stewart|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=180|height=180]
“Keep your dreams alive. Understand to achieve anything requires faith and belief in yourself, vision, hard work, determination, and dedication. Remember all things are possible for those who believe.”
[img_assist|nid=20481|title=" try me "|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=180|height=180]
Faith in What? I have no faith in God, but I try to be a good person and do good work. Therefore good works are more important then faith. I don't need fear of God to be a good person.
[img_assist|nid=13228|title=I feel your scorn and I accept it-Jon Stewart|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=180|height=180]
[img_assist|nid=20481|title=" try me "|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=180|height=180]
Looks like your good in SCRABBLE too, LOL
Sorry, am not Hijacking this thread!
Cheers,
"HONESTY is HARD ATTRIBUTE to FIND"
U P P I S H
[img_assist|nid=13339|title=.|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=180|height=180]
[img_assist|nid=20470|title=" improvement beggins with i "|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=135|height=180]
Faith without Work is Dead (a dead faith)
up is using in one forum , same as in chating asl .
smile,
what do you mean "up"?
up !!!!!
faith comes first and good works does follows!
Here's the rub! What's legitimate. It can't be action alone can it? If so what's the different between Dietrich Bonhoffer (a German theologian) participating in a plot to assassinate Hitler and a father hearing voices "from God" telling him to murder his own child?
I think the action needs to be tied to love. What is the loving thing(s) to do? How do I make this world a better place by my being in it?
But even then, IMO faith comes first or else the actions can only be selfishly (albeit maybe intelligently) motivated: "I'm doing it for the reward, and *NOT* because it's the right thing to do."
that is legitimate faith!
a faith accompanied w/ actions...
I believe good works are more important than faith by itself.
We have a say in spanish: "A Dios rogando y con el mazo dando" which means that every prayer must be accompanied by action.
depends on what kinds of faith you have?
If you got the legitimate faith then good works or good deeds does follows.
Why all the talk about hijacking it? Some issues might be emotional, but surely we can talk about them. If people get too empassioned that rationality goes out the door, then we stop and try again another day. If we only talk about what we feel comfortable with then sex education will always come too late.
So the question: is faith more important than good works?
I'll bite and say "Yes." On my own, I will never choose to believe in God preferring to think of myself as my own god (a sentiment implied at least in part by those wanting to hijack this thread and by jack's posting above). IMO, true faith only comes when I realize that on my own, I am at base a selfish, greedy individual only working out my own survival. In such a mindset, even good works are never truly "good" or charitable, but only acts based on vested self interest ("There but for the grace of God go I...").
I'd even go so far as to say that "Faith" is not me choosing God, but God choosing me.
Is Faith More Important than Good Works?
" improvement beggins with i "
no no no please no religion and faith discussions it is a private matter, let it be private only, now whatever happening all over the world, this is due to religion only, if this would have been stayed private with everyone, today this world would have much happier and nicest place to live on.
up !!!!
Religion is a deep topic and that is why the phrase “Don’t discuss Religion and Politics” is so popular. I especially don’t like talking about Religion on forums because unfortunately it usually leads to people heatedly expressing their preconceived notions or flaming one another.
Truly learning about different Religions can be very educational and for some enlightening, if the source of knowledge is authentic that is.
I can tell you though that it is really unfair to base any Religion by the works of a minority of its followers. Every creed has its good and bad, and although it may be a convenient rationalization to make sweeping generalities as a reason to disregard Religion entirely, it’s truly an insincere approach.
After all, a great many Religions claim that Heaven and Hell are the end; eternal happiness or eternal suffering. With stakes so high, considering how much time a person has in his life, shouldn’t at least a few sincere moments be spent learning?
Well, so anyways, I am a Muslim and if you are ever interested in learning about Islam, please drop me a line and I would be more then happy to talk more.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
You can find me on facebook. Amar Chaudhary, location, Qatar.
"I’d say in a given week I probably only do about 15 minutes of real actual work." - Peter, Office Space
up !!!
You forgot to mention
QLers planning to hijack topics too.
so guys lets hijack this one
[img_assist|nid=13339|title=.|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=180|height=180]
Today all faiths are hijacked for selfish purposes...
All they want is more blood:
The Hindus are asked to fight like Kshatriya.
The Muslims want Jihad.
The Christians want Crusades & Inquisition.
No matter what everyone tells. All religions are controlled by their top Priest.
If he tells to dance everyone does.
I have yet to see a scripture that says it is good to kill another person. But it routinely happens, in all religions .