A corny expat-related question

And if you're *not* earning less than the white skinned people, then what you are complaining about?

Surely, then, things are fair if you are earning the same as them?

The idea of a dictionary is that we can all come to the same understand of each word.

But I guess if you wish to have your own 'understanding' of different words, than that's fine too.

Yeah, it's a bit rich.

As Qatarisun said, anyone stupid enough to just go to another country to pick up a new passport (at the supermarket??) needs more than a new travel document to get a better paying job.

that's your understanding, not mine. And who says, I'm earning less than them? So don't laugh and make a fool of yourself.

"dgoodrebel will always be the rebellious good one"

In many cases, certain nationalities feel that it's a good idea to do a Bachelor and then an a Masters degree, one after the other. However to western employers they want someone who has actually worked for 7 years, not been locked away in a university library with nothing but books and coffee to distract them.

Also, different cultures have vastly different teaching methods. For instance a lot of Chinese students opt out of using the very good chinese universities, where most learning is rote and the emphasis is on recall, and go to universities in the US and Australia where there is more of an emphasis on didactic teaching methods where students are more intellectually involved as participants, not just readers of books.

It's impossible to say that 7 years of study and 7 years of working is the same all around the world.

But is it just me or is anyone else out there laughing at the fact, he thinks he can just JUMP over to the U.K. and snap his fingers and they'll give him instant citizenship?

with the last comment about better qualified or experienced.

One of the big difficulties faced was in decision making ability and the implementation of such decisions. Some nationalty groups appeared to be better suited to making those decisions than others.

I agree.

I think that a lot of people make a lot of noise about this issue but fail to see the bigger picture.

And they all have a chip on their shoulder because they have this idea that westerners are earning HUGE sums of money, when in most cases, and especially now, this isn't the case.

However, the question of whether westerners, by definition, are better qualified or better experienced or better suited etc, is not so easy to dismiss.

issue.

It's not about race although some will say it is. It's about economics.

The company will ony pay what it has to pay.

Within QP some years ago there was one pay scale and it applied to all nationalities. I believe it still does.

In those days Asians (using Indians as an example) were earning 12 times what they could in their base country.

Western (using British as an example) were earning not much more than they could in their base country but of course it was tax free. Also in those days housing and utilities were at company expense. Alternatively, the company offered a housing allowance that enabled staff to rent a very high level of accommodation.

It was predominantly the Asian community that then opted for cheaper housing, pocketing the balance of the housing allowance, thus increasing their disposable income.

It was suggested that housing allowance be paid against authentic rental agreements which would have reduced the housing bill considerably. Those pocketing the extra housing allowance by renting lower standard accommodation were the first to object to that suggestion.

Essentially each individual must make sure that the offer meets their needs and is considered fair by them.

The majority of problems occur when comparison is made to the salary of others.

Spot on Tigasin.

In western countries it's a CRIME to hire and pay people based on their:

Gender

Sexual preference

Marital status

Age

Ethnicity

Religion

Cultural background

Etc.

Ironically, it is the westerners being accused of racism.

Cracks me up.

Yes, dmighty, that's *exactly* what you said. Here is your post:

dmigtysolomon said I agree fully with you Moganbo,.... ...

the only thing that make this people "lucky" is they are white-skinned and directly, I can say NOTHING ELSE. Those practical knowledge is B********t. In the construction fields, they rely heavily on Asian engineers who knows the "in and out" and even the untraditional way of dealing field conditions.

It's the mental conditioning that the presence of a "white-skinned" employee "somehow" raise the credibility of such organization is again another b******t.

And many of my "white-skinned" friends knows this and they agree with me.

In Saudi and in Manila, this is what I missed a lot, being in command and recommend to throw-out anybody who I find is inefficient or not worth the company's money, whatever the nationality is (fair and square), but the challenge is always there when it comes to kicking-out these "white-skinned", self-proclaimed "more superior" race (I've done it a couple of times and it's surely felt good).

"dgoodrebel will always be the rebellious good one"

Thu, 17/07/2008 - 9:52am reply Email this page

As you can see, in the last paragraph, you use the words "self-proclaimed".

Self - as in the white person himSELF

Proclaimed - as in that's what the person SAID.

Or, to quote the dictionary:

American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source - Share This self-pro·claimed (sělf'prō-klāmd', -prə-)

adj. So called by oneself; self-styled.

And you say that people from Asia are just as educated and literate as people from the west!

Hahaha. Now you can see why you aren't paid as much as the staff in your office familiar with the english language.

I said they are going around and saying this and this.....? You're not familiar with English grammar so we are not seeing eye-to-eye. If that's your interpretation (literally), so be it. But that's not my level. I will judge you by that understanding.

"dgoodrebel will always be the rebellious good one"

There is verymuch discrimination prevailing in middleast

Citizens from West & friendly arab countries (thats what they call them) get the top post in almost every organisation here irrespective of their experience and Educational Background and competence.

Professional Education standards in India is at par or better than any western countries..

You say "Westerners love to talk of Freedom and Equality values ... But they wouldnt like to implement it ...."

Go to any major western country,the United States, the European Union, Canada, Australia and people are paid according to market prices and qualifications and not according to nationality or skin color.

This is ordained and implemenred by the laws of thses countries. I am not saying that racial discrimination does not exist in the west, of course it does but much less so than elsewhere and company pay grades have nothing to do with nationality or color.

Your point about some of the world's top CEOs being Indian is true but the vast majority of these CEOs are western educated, trained and gained their experienece in the west. This is a fact.

Rami-Leb is right when he says "One of the problems is that there are so many people, particularly from India, who want to come and work in this region is that essentially each one says that he will work for slightly less than the other candidates".

As long as this remains the case, Indians will be paid less. As the Indian economy frows and better opportunities emerge in India, the value of Indians on the international job markets will rise. This is simple economics. The same applies to Filipinos.

I know some very smart and talented Filipinos who are paid much less than they are worth. The problem is the Philippine economy is weak and it is possible to hire highly qualified Filipinos at low salaries. This is sad but it is not discrimination per se, it is economics.

A Filipino or Indian with a western passport (and there are many) do not face these issues.

Just call me Tigasin. That's what I'm talking about

Mogambooo............Mein kush huaa

There is a difference between someone acts, in your eyes, like they are superior, and someone who says, out loud, verbally, that they are superior.

I object to your use of the words 'self-proclaimed' because this means that white people go around saying, out loud, to people, "I am superior". This is totally different to someone simply acting superior.

"dgoodrebel will always be the rebellious good one"

you don't even understand the "difference" between, mindset, perception, trend and "self proclaimed" . There is NONE. That's why there is "....."

"dgoodrebel will always be the rebellious good one"

Mogambo,

You are right. People should be paid according to how competent they are. I will not argue with that point.

One of the problems is that there are so many people, particularly from India, who want to come and work in this region is that essentially each one says that he will work for slightly less than the other candidates.

The result is that employers can really drive down the price because they know that no matter how much person A is willing to accept, person B will work for 500Q/mon less.

I do disagree with the practise of paying people more JUST because they are from a different country. But I don't honestly think that this happens as much as what people think. The employer WANTS a certain person, Indian or British or whatever, and then will pay the amount that this person asks. It's not because he of his skin tone, it's just supply and demand.

And in any case, don't get angry at the employee because he gets paid too much (in your opinion). You should get angry firstly at your company for offering him his huge salary, and angry at yourself for not going to get another job that pays the money that you think you are worth.

I am Asian But I get almost the same as a western counterpart. I think it depends on what you are doing

I agree with you incompetence is not the domain of a particular region...........

I STRONGLY endorse this that what a person should be paid for is his competencies not his colour or creed.....

If I am incompetent chuck him or for that matter anybody who is ..... but be FAIR and IMPARTIAL....

Just because in west u r getting paid more because u r a great ecopnomy should not entitle anybody to get still more here ... and just because we are getting peanuts in are region should not mean we should continue to get peanuts...

Thats my only say .. companies should decide salaries on competencies .....

The mindset that Westerners are more practical or have more knowledge does not hold steam...........any more....

Some of the best CEO's in world are Indians .. Pepsico, Citibank, Standard Chartered, ..

Indians have proved themselves technically in the field of SPACE MISSILES FOOD SOFTWARE u name it we have it....

So ......... Let there be an even playing field for all....

For the sake of Fairness and Justice.........

Ths sponsorhip situation here is part of the problem

In any other country if someone said to me 'boohoo... it's not fair... that guy over there earns more than me and he's an idiot' I would laugh at them and say 'go and get a better job then and stop whining to me'.

However you can't do that here, unless you are willing to leave Qatar.

Mogambo.india, there are a lot of western expats in this region whose first language is not English. In fact, where I originally come from, we speak less English on a day to day basis than in India, since I believe English is one of your official languages (I do apologize if I'm incorrect in this statement).

Personally, I think there are a lot of incompetent people in this region, being Asian, Westerners etc. It really bothers me to know that some people are getting paid a lot of money for doing nothing. And btw, even Q1000 can be a lot of money if they are incompetent.

Dmighty, you said white people are 'self-proclaimed' superior.

I have never, in all my life, heard a single white person SAY that they are superior. They may act that way, think that way, talk that way, but that is just perception.

I think it is really unfair to say that white people go around 'self proclaiming' their superiority.

Saying it's a trend or a mindset is a totally different thing from using the word 'self proclaimed'.

you are not living in the real world. I'm sorry, Paul, I have worked with a lot of "white" people and to me, if there is an exception, I am talking about the majority.

As I've said, I've worked with multi-cultured, multinational companies and and for me "the superiority complex" of white people is a general trend or mindset. If I decide, I make it objectively, putting the interest of the company I am working. I am not "anti-white". I am "anti-ignorant", those white people who look at us down because we are colored people.

"dgoodrebel will always be the rebellious good one"

dmighty

when are white skinned people a:

"self-proclaimed "more superior" race"

Could you be any more racist yourself?

"the only thing that make this people "lucky" is they are white-skinned and directly, I can say NOTHING ELSE. Those practical knowledge is B********t. "

So im only doing my job cos im white ? even though i have nearly 10 years experience.And my 2 supervisors are Indian and pinoy.

Bit of a generalisation to make dont ya think ?

Maybe some "white skinned " people, as yer so nicely put it, may not have as much experience as others, but they were hired for a reason.....

[img_assist|nid=103941|title=.|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=|height=0]

NIL ILLEGITIMI CARBORUNDUM

Employers pay some people less because they can and it saves them money.

Salary compression also happens in the West. I know of several jobs where people who had experience and been in their positions for years were making less than new hires. If the organization didn't have a mechanism in place to make a salary adjustment, a lot of times it was necessary to leave the organization and be hired back to negotiate new terms.

Army,

This simple calculation for working out how much to pay someone is based on price elasticity.

The employer will pay you as little as possible, the employee will ask for as much as possible. Both parties meet somewhere in the middle.

So, employers will ask the prospective employee what they were earning before and then add an incentive amount to this to get them to change jobs. They aren't about to double the previous salary if the candidate would end up expecting less.

Employers will pay you enough to get you to accept the job, and no more. Westerners were earning more in their home countries, and so they are offered some more since that it was it takes to get them to accept the job.

In most cases fewer and fewer westerners bother coming to the gulf now because the cost of rent and living in general is so high, and better salaries are available in their home countries, while there are equally capable people from other countries who will do the job for less.

the only thing that make this people "lucky" is they are white-skinned and directly, I can say NOTHING ELSE. Those practical knowledge is B********t. In the construction fields, they rely heavily on Asian engineers who knows the "in and out" and even the untraditional way of dealing field conditions.

It's the mental conditioning that the presence of a "white-skinned" employee "somehow" raise the credibility of such organization is again another b******t.

And many of my "white-skinned" friends knows this and they agree with me.

In Saudi and in Manila, this is what I missed a lot, being in command and recommend to throw-out anybody who I find is inefficient or not worth the company's money, whatever the nationality is (fair and square), but the challenge is always there when it comes to kicking-out these "white-skinned", self-proclaimed "more superior" race (I've done it a couple of times and it's surely felt good).

"dgoodrebel will always be the rebellious good one"

TRY YOUR LUCK AND SEE WHERE U LAND!!

I agree with you.

Never Ask for a SMILE..just GIVE it..

You can't teach experience

Are you saying that only westerners are in senior positions?

And that only westerners get high salaries?

My experience of last so many years in the region .. I can tell you 1 thing for sure....

Except for a few Westerners, most of them are not half qualified for their job in terms of proper education....

Yeah they speak English .. But what the hell thats simply because it is their native language .. and mind you they only speak ... I have seen memo written by such people and it would make me laugh ....

No Offence meant .. but wake up there are bad eggs every where ...

I once happened to read a Memo by a Western Manager asking for Western Labour force on the grounds that they were twice efficient then the asian labourers..

Point noted ... but he simply forgot to mention that that this twice efficient labourers cost the company at least 10 times the salary of asians .. Mind Boggling Is'nt it.....

Another things that asian hate is not as much the salary that westerners get but the discrimination in grades .. salaries are the immediate fallout..

To give the same example... in the above case if the company recruited this western labourer, just because of the salary given to him he would be accomadated in a very high grade to justify the salary ...

Whereas the asian who is working at a higher position probably as an engineer would be working at a lower grade then the labourer , coz his salary would be lower then the western labourer...

Its is this that is discriminatory ...

Wake up guys and face the world...

Also the question is not wheter I am getting 10 times the salary I get at home and wheter u r getting only twice ....

The issue is on common grounds, equally educated, similar experienced and doing the same genre of work.... How can the salaries be different.... What could be the possible justification other then racial discrimination...???

Westerners love to talk of Freedom and Equality values ... But they wouldnt like to implement it ....

I dare these westerners who are in big positions in company to implement this and then we will see....

You can't teach experience

Your logic is on par with my thinking, experience and practicality I find are the profound determining factors, also an individual has the prerogative to negotiate the terms and conditions of his recruitment.

I don't think the issue is the level of education as I find there are a lot of Asians with very high education. I think the differentiator is the experience: it doesn't help being academic in the work environment (unless you work for a university). I find Westerners have more practical experience even when they are less educated. Of course this does not apply to everyone, there are a LOT of incompetent Westerners here.

Guys,

No offence meant. But Wake up and get yourself updated!! Yes - what you guys are talking about is and was applicable a few years back. And it still is applicable to some of the Universities. But the educational standards, professional development in India and many other Asian countries are now in par or in some areas outbeating the West. We have now a days expats from all over the world including Europe and US visiting these countries for professional development. Now - I would agree that this does not apply for all industries and sectors. But to generalize like the way you guys just did - is a bit way out of line. There are UK citizens and US citizens taking up jobs in countries like India at intern and even mid management level positions. Like I said - things have changed drastically over the past few years. And again, if the so called Asian standards of education and professional development is so poor, I wonder why so many Asians are hired and employed in US an UK in all the blue chip companies!!

And how do you judge what a person has to be paid based on how much he/she was earning before??!! A person should be judged on his/hers package based on what the persons capabilities are or what the person can produce.

Now - on the actual question - of the skin color and the citizenship - whether we like it or not - the hard reality is that in this part of the world its still applicable and not in all cases, but many cases, the package would drastically vary with one's skin color or nationality and at times both. But many refuse to admit it. But hey - lets face it - this is the reality!!

"Work like you don't need the money, Love like you've never been hurt, and dance like you do when nobody's watching "!

When Asian compare their salaries with wetern expat they foget that the cost of living is not the same and the slary is based on your home country.

Plus the level of education, professional development is much higher than you will get in the Asian countries.

Infact in my case my basic is less than what I used to earn in the UK, just the tax free element makes worth staying here.

So coming the question of skin colour, No most of jobs here based on nationality purely because of the things are mentioned above. I am not saying education standard is low in Asian countries but can you tell you for a fact that professional development and experience definately is.

So skin colour can't comment on that, there is positive discrimination in this part of the world, well if you cant accept it then you should not be here..

-----------------

HE WHO DARES WINS

Brit I second you ther...

"to jump to England to get my citizenship"????

WTF!

not a skin color, but your F** limited mind won't let you getting any benefits.. and then go and accuse everybody in racism!!

Many years ago, I worked with an Indian guy who kpt going on about my salary..

I asked him a simple question. "How much more is he getting as an expat, than in his home country?"

He said that he was getting five times what he earned India.

I told him that I was only getting 60% more..

He realised that with the cost of living in the two countries, he was much better off..