Minarets in Switzerland

nothing interesting...

And regarding the comments that killing is acceptable or implied in the Qoran - please speak to somebody qualified to answer your question properly - pop over to the Fanar centre or any English speaking Imam at a mosque and get a proper answer - I would hope they could answer you more fully than I.

If not, I can get hold of the answer for you if you are really intersted in more than the headlines.

Everyone I know openly condems these actions! However, this doesnt tend to make good headlines for the media - its just not that exciting.

Juat because some black people are criminals maybe we should accept that they all are?

And the Italians are all in the Mafia?

Oh, and of course all white people are racist.

Just doesnt cut it does it?

Yet because some idiots claim to be muslims and blow stuff up, then we all must be the same? Please, grow up.

are you infidels?

i pray to Allah to grant you a very long life...

may all the infidels and haters of Islam live longer. longer life span of more than 150 years...with intact thinking and reasoning maybe they will revert.

or they might witness how Islam will prevail. the pseudo christ will come first then Christ will come to slay the anti-christ,then the world will be in single religion;ISLAM....Allahu Akbar...

Madimad,

The good Muslims are doing nothing in a visible way to condemn what the bad Muslims do!

At the end of the day, something must be wrong with Islam or with the teaching of Islam, Why on earth so many people are inspired by Islam to kill infidels????

Isn’t it because it’s implied in the Koran?

Anyway, if the Muslims real wanted to clear their image and really wanted to distant themselves from the bad ones, they could have raised their Voices, just like they did when someone draw some cartoons!

What are the leaders of the Islamic Countries doing? Why they remain passive and silent and let the West fight this war?

Do you see now why Carol distinguishes Muslims from non-Muslims?!

Carol - I wish non-muslims and muslims (not those who pervert the name for their own use) could claim the right to board a plane in safety!

Please don't tarnish us all with the same brush!

Yes... I just wish us, non muslins, could claim the human right to board a plane and not being blown up by a meat head....

As I always say... US and Europe give away too many passports, too many visas... these countries are shooting their own feet!

Everyone knows where the danger is.

what does this tell the West?

If there are going to be minarets in Switzerland, why not have some church towers in Doha? What is sauce for the goose ought to be sauce for the gander.

Richard Reid?

LOL. Thats regional. Not international.

Does not matter how they got there! And how can you say no terrorists in the UK - what happened to the IRA etc - just pop over to Northern Ireland - still alive and well.

Aanyway - I think this conversation has been hijacked enough surely?????

very well equipped and organised against The Organised Criminal amd Terrorist Activities to gauge and stop such miscreants at the planning stage :)

Thats where you got into the wrong path in a life time. Theres no terrorist in UK. Most are immigrant, imported, converted or ideology changed to perform an act of terror.

lol! am just waiting for the debate to get to UK based terrorists targeting the US!...

Thats right. The weaker should back off, rather than messing around looking for sympathy

hotly debated region of Israel/Palestine and those darn Zionist Jews!

I think there must be a secret handbook I don't know about that links anything negative about Islam or Arabs back to the Jews and the creation of Israel...

"If you're looking for sympathy, you'll find it between sh*t and syphilis in the dictionary."

- David Sedaris

I have never read such a load of complete baloney in my life.

People form ideas about others by observing repeated behaviours.

I really liked the one about not eating pork. Hogwash :)

Israel does not need to bomb schools - it simply destroys entire areas - Gaza most recently if you recall.... (including UN camps as well as schools)

Palestinians should not retaliate by attacking schools as children should not be punished for the mistakes of their fathers.

I dont try to understand the emotions or reasoning of the people in this situation, not to condem nor congratulate. Just pray I am never tested this hard.

Read Quran and understand Jews, general behaviour, characteristics and their views about muslims described in the holy book...(back stabber, never respect their provider, forefront enemity with islam and muslims)

Could be one reason, which is seconded by current scenario and relationship with Palestine, Lebanon and Syria.....Israel is the Major cause of Middle East crisis since many decades.

Wrong carlitos. 99% of the jews would like to drive the palestinians into the mediterranean sea.

I am not defending Jews, as i also agree that they are not innocent at all, anyway if we want to go in examples, i agree with your point regarding ambulances, and i can even help, why families are separated because they don't live in same places and Israelis just keep closing check-points as many times as they want, yes is not fair also that they just cut roads and many times first necessity goods as milk, rice or wheat are out of stock during weeks, YES the treatment given to Palestinians is unfair.... BUT>>

What about Hezbollah firing rockets into schools, why so many innocent children (both sides) die everyday... I just dont remember Israelis bombing schools....??????

we, on QL, are some concerned with this vote, when at the same time numerous bombs have exploded throughout the Islamic world, muslims killing muslims everyday in the name of Allah, and not once did our Muslim brothers ever say anything against this??

Perhaps we are looking too far abroad.

Perhaps our Muslim brothers should question and change matters closer to home.

Carlitos - you are bordering on talking cr*p now!

Would love to see where you get your latest statistic that 99% of muslims want to see Jews dead. Load of tosh.

Yes, 99% (?) want to see the Jews out of Palestine - a country that rightly belongs to a native people that are being constantly abused with Israel flouting every UN resolution blatantly.

And talking of tourist visas not being issued - how about women giving birth on the way to hospitals because the Israelis will not let ambulances through checkpoints in the Palestinians own country?

Please dont think its a simple, one sided issue - it goes far deeper than that.

so why 99% of muslims just want to see them dead, and most part of muslim countries refuse to deliver them even a tourist visa.. (ooops just realized that Qatar is also on the list)......

know that Jews are more close to Islam in terms of wearing Beard and Cap with small variatiane :)

Certain parts of Old testament and Moses commandments are repeated in Quranic verses of Surah Al Maryam and Al Bakrah.

my friend this has been posted and discussed 1000's of times....so allas...

and talking like that i can see that you never tried a jamon serrano or some parma prosciutto...

secondly if you can not access cant in Mumbay it's your problem, because with invitation i was there many times,so go preach somewhere else because i can do the same with any religion, AND BY THE WAY DID YOU KNOW THAT JEWS IS THE MORE CLOSEST RELIGION TO ISLAM.....

ENjoy your day...

http://www.islamawareness.net/Islam/misconcep.html

The misconceptions about Islam

Dr. Zakir Naik of Bombay, India

Summary of the lecture delivered by Dr. Zakir Naik of Bombay, India, on "The misconceptions about Islam", on Friday, November 26, 1999 at the Rakkah Stadium, Dammam, under the aegis of the Islamic Dawah and Guidance Center, Dammam.

The meeting was coordinated by Mr. Ahmed Nooruddin of New York.

Dear brothers and sisters, As-salaam-u-alaikum-wa-rahmatullah-wa-barkat-hu. May peace be with you and may God's mercy and blessings be on you.

It is my honor to be here for the third time in three years.

The topic of my lecture today is "Misconceptions about Islam". It is the duty of every Muslim to help remove some of the misconceptions non-Muslims have about Islam. By engaging in a dialogue with the non-Muslims, you will help lessen the level of anti-Muslim feelings in their hearts. These misconceptions prevent non-Muslims from seeing the beauty of Islam.

Some of the methods of conveying the message of Islam are effective and some are ineffective. The best way to start a dialogue is to first ask them: "What is it that you do not like about Islam". This opening makes them feel comfortable to talk to you. Also, it gives you a good chance to know what they have to say about Islam in their own words.

I have found from my lecture tours around the world that these misconceptions hinge around only 20 issues, by and large. I will try to cover as many of them today in the one hour I have to deliver my talk. I will also suggest ways you may tackle them.

There may be one or two issues that may be unique to Singapore, or Malaysia, Canada, etc, but essentially the various issues can be grouped into only twenty. These issues change from time to time. What I will be listing are issues that non-Muslims of today bring up. Twenty years ago, these were not the issues... there were other issues. Similarly, twenty years from now, there will be different issues that will come up.

So if you master the answers to these typical questions about today's misconceptions about Islam, you can help remove most of them from the hearts and minds of your non-Muslim friends. However, most lay non-Muslims have only about four or five issues they dislike about Islam; so it is not difficult for you to remove this animosity they have against Islam.

Misconception # 1: It is not civilized to have more than one wife at a time.

Reply: The only religious book that says: "... then marry only once" is the Quran, the holy book of the Muslims. This injunction is not found in the Christian Bible in the Hindu Geeta, or in the Jewish holy book etc. In the Bible there are so many references to various prophets and kings who had numerous wives. Abraham had three wives, while King Solomon had seven hundred wives, etc. In the Hindu literature the various gods have hundreds of wives. Krishna had one thousand women and concubines. Similarly, the Jews used to marry more than once, till as late as the 1950s. None of these faiths regulated the number of wives a man could have at a time. Only Islam limits the wives to four.

The monogamy that the Christians, the Hindus, and Jews practice today, is not from their religion, but from their government. So the issue of monogamy has no religious significance; it is a man-made rule. Monogamy was the result of an act of parliament, not their faith. Example: The Indian Parliament in 1954 passed the Hindu Marriage Act prohibiting the Hindu male from taking up more than one wife. The Jewish Rabbis in the 10th Century AD made monogamy a rule, although it was not enforced till as late as the 1950s. Similarly, the European countries and the American government passed laws to make monogamy the rule in their lands some time ago. Mormons still marry more than once.

In Surah Nissah God allows a Muslim to marry, one, two, three or four women as long as he can do justice between them. If the man can't do justice, the exhortation for him is: "... then marry only once".

Marrying more than once is not compulsory, but only an option to tide over unique circumstances that societies face from time to time. You will find in many societies today that the ratio between females and males is not 50:50. There are more females than males in Europe, USA and elsewhere. On the other hand, in India, because of the rampant female fetus abortions, the number of females is dropping, and a crisis is in the making, as not enough number of females will be available for Hindu men to marry a few years from now.

The option for women in countries with a bigger female ratio than male is to share a husband with another women, to remain single, or to become public property. "Become public property" is a decent phrase I'm using for what it really means. Ask any woman who cannot find an unmarried man to marry, if it is a better choice to share a husband with another woman, to remain single, or to become a mere mistress. As a lawfully wedded wife she will get the same right as the first wife, get legal status for herself and her children, get inheritance rights for herself and her children, and most importantly, get respect and dignity. Becoming a mistress is no choice. In the West becoming a mistress or a girlfriend is no problem, but becoming a second wife is totally unacceptable. The government will come after you, the society will come after you...

Misconception # 2: There is no equality between genders in Islam, as Islam gives men the right to have more than one wife, but does it not give the same right to women to have more than one husband.

Reply: Islam does not approve of polyandry, i.e., a woman taking up more than one husband. It is the male whose children the women bear. If a woman had multiple husbands, it would not be easy to know who is the biological father of the child. When a child is conceived, God puts love and affection in the hearts of the parents so that they can bring up the child. Without this love, life cannot be sustained. But if there was dispute about who really has fathered the child, there would be no love in the heart of the fathers. Psychologists say that children who grow up without knowing who their father is, are lacking in stability and maturity. These days because of scientific progress in DNA testing, one can say who the father is; but these tests were not available for mankind till now. Islam has historically provided for peace and stability in the family, not discord.

Misconception # 3: Islam subjugates women in a veil.

Reply: If you look at history, to ancient civilizations, you will find that women were the oppressed people. They had no individual merit. The Babylonians used to punish the woman for her husband's mistakes. The ancient Egyptians did the same. Ancient Arabs buried their newly born daughters.

It was Islam that uplifted the status of women. It gave women rights they never had before. Surah Nissah exhorts believing men to lower their gaze if a lady is passing by. Similarly, there are exhortations for women to lower their gaze if strange men are around. The Quran also speaks about the hijab for men and women to protect the modesty. The hijab for men is to cover their bodies minimally from their navel to the knees. The hijab for women is to cover their whole bodies except for their faces and hands below their wrists. There are descriptions for a female hijab, that it should cover the endowments including head, not be tight, not be transparent, not be like the clothes of non-believers, and not be like the clothes of the other gender, etc. Women got the right to own, inherit property, and to dispose it of at will.

Let me ask you a question: Suppose two identical twin sisters are walking down a street, and one of them is dressed in revealing clothing, while the other one is wearing a hijab. Who will be boys in the street whistle at or tease: the one who is scantily dressed in a mini-skirt, or the one who is modestly attired? The answer is obvious. The hijab is designed to prevent women from being molested. It brings peace to society and prevents mischief.

Misconception # 4: Capital punishment is barbaric.

Reply: There are crimes for which Islam prescribes capital punishment, e.g. for rape, murder etc. This is to protect society from criminals and anti-social elements. In USA there are 2713 rapes taking place every day. In Islam, the penalty is to award the death penalty so that the criminal is not around to repeat this crime, and to teach others a lesson. Americans say that this is a severe punishment. They say that the rapist must be put in jail for the first rape. If after his release he rapes again, then it is ok to put him to death. Friends, statistics in USA show that 95 percent of the rapists, after release from jail, rape again. Islam prevents this second rape. Following the Hijab dress code prevents the rapist from temptation to rape.

Misconception # 5: Islam was spread by the sword.

Reply: Nothing is far from the truth. It was the Islamic traders who served as excellent role models in the spread of Islam. In the book: "Islam at crossroads", the author, on page 8, says that this belief is a myth. Look at the number of Coptic Christians in Egypt. They number 14 million. Couldn't the Arabs have wiped them out or forcefully converted them to Islam? Look at India. In the 1,0000 years that the Muslims ruled over this subcontinent, every one could have been forcefully converted to Islam. How can you explain that there are 800 million Hindus and others still in India? Which Muslim army went to Indonesia and Malaysia to convert them? These people converted by seeing the good behaviors of the Muslim/Arab traders. Readers' Digest says that between 1944 and 1984, a period of 50 years, saw more conversion to Islam in Europe and USA than to any faith. I am asking you, who went with a sword to convert these people to Islam? It is the sword of the intellect that converts people.

Misconception # 6: Muslims are fundamentalists.

Reply: What is the definition of the word fundamentalist? The dictionary says anyone who understands the basics of a discipline is a fundamentalist. Can you call yourself a mathematician if you can't understand the fundamentals of mathematics? No! Similarly, to be called a scientist, you must understand the fundamentals of science. There can be a positive fundamentalist and a negative fundamentalist. A thief/robber who is an expert at the fundamentals of robbing is bad; but a doctor who knows the fundamentals of healing is good. I submit that no fundamentals of Islam are against humanity. How can you be a good Muslim if you do not understand the fundamentals of Islam? How can you practice Islam? According to the Webster's dictionary, the word fundamentalist was first used on Christians; however, the new Oxford dictionary lists Muslims as fundamentalists.

Every Muslim should understand the fundamentals of Islam, and should be a fundamentalist. I am proud to call myself a 'Muslim Fundamentalist'. I submit that every Muslim should be a terrorist. Just as the policeman strikes terror in the heart of the thief, so should every Muslim strike terror in the heart of the thief, the rapist and other anti-social elements!

The word fundamentalist is open to wide interpretation, just like the word freedom fighter. In olden days, the British would label those Indians fighting for India's freedom as terrorists; while for the Indians, these were freedom fighters.

Misconception # 7: Muslims are ruthless non-vegetarian people.

Reply: God has granted Muslims the choice to be vegetarians as well as non-vegetarians. He has ordained in the holy book that everything that he has created in this world is for the enjoyment/pleasure of man (with certain restrictions and limits). It is ok for a Muslim to be a vegetarian by choice; it is also ok for him to be a non-vegetarian by choice.

Science tells us that animal flesh is a complete protein food. It is easier to digest than the vegetarian food. If you look at the teeth of carnivorous animals like a tiger or a lion they are sharp and pointed, designed to tear flesh. The tiger and lion can eat only flesh; they cannot digest leaves and grass. On the other hand, the teeth of herbivorous animals like the cow and camel are flat. Designed to chew grass and leaves. These herbivorous animals can't digest flesh. But if you examine the teeth of human beings, they are both canine i.e. sharp and pointed, as well as flat. Therefore human beings can chew both vegetarian foods as well as non-vegetarian foods. Humans can digest plant foods as well as flesh. This ability to enjoy and digest both vegetarian as well as non-vegetarian food is a gift of God to humans.

Hindu scriptures permit the eating of flesh. In fact, their books are replete with incidents showing festivals and ceremonies where meat was served. When Jainism and Buddhism started to become popular with their philosophies of ahimsa, i.e., non-violence towards animals, and started to win converts from Hindus, the Hindus priests adapted the same philosophy of ahimsa to win back those who had left the Hindu fold. This is how Hinduism changed over to vegetarianism.

If no one eats meat the number of cattle will be uncontrollable. It will be a big problem about how to dispose of them.

Misconception # 8: Muslims eat animals and behave like animals.

Reply: There is a saying that you are what you eat. Muslims eat only herbivorous animals (animals that eat only plants, grass, leaves etc). These animals are peaceful animals, like goat, lamb etc. Therefore, we are peaceful people. Muslims are prevented from eating carnivorous animals, i.e. animals that eat other animals. The holy prophet has prohibited us from eating snakes, lizards, cats, dogs, birds of prey etc.

Some non-Muslims say that allowing slaughtered animals to bleed to death is torturing the animals. It is better to behead them in one quick shot on the neck. Some Muslims' response to this is that the non-Muslims attach the animals from behind, like cowards; while Muslims confront the animal in a manly manner, face-to-face, from the front. Of course this is not a good reason; it is only a joke.

Scientific tests have proven that when the animal's throat is slit along with the windpipe and the vein (without damage to the spinal cord), the animal dies a painless death. The animal twitches its legs, it is not because of pain but because the heart has pumped out all the blood from the legs. It is this twitching of the lags, this thrashing about of the dying animal that leads the non-Muslim to believe that the animal is in pain. Blood carries toxins and impurities that are harmful for humans. Islam prohibits the eating/drinking of blood. Meat without blood lasts longer than meat with blood in it.

Misconception # 9: Going around the Kabah is idol worship.

Reply: No religion is more vocal in condemning idol worship than Islam. The Muslims do not worship Kabah, only God, or Allah. While circumambulating the Kabah they chant: La Illa Ha Ill-lal-lah. (There is no object worthy of worship but Allah).

The Kabah is for unifying Muslims at prayer. It would be chaotic if Muslims prayed in any direction they chose. The Kabah provides a chance to unify in prayer as all Muslims face one spot, the Kabah. Throughout the globe people from various countries face North, South, East and West only to face the Kabah. When the Arabs drew the map of the globe, they put Makkah in the center; but when the Western people gained power, they put Greenwich in the center. But if you look at the map, Makkah continues to be in the center of the globe even today. Alhamdulillah!

Some accuse Muslims to be idol worshippers because they kiss the black rock at Kabah. This they do only because they saw the prophet do it. The black stone has no power to benefit or harm you. In olden times, the call to prayer was given by standing on the top of Kabah. If Muslims were idol worshippers, would they stand on top of their 'idol' and call people to pray. Does a Hindu or a Christian stand on top of their idols and call others to join in the worship?

Misconception # 10: Muslims are wrong in preventing non-Muslims from visiting Makkah.

Reply: Allah has prohibited this. Makkah is not a place of tourism, but a place of reverence and worship. A non-Muslim has no reverence for Makkah, and therefore should not be there as a mere spectator.

Although I am an Indian, I can't go to the cantonment area in Bombay where the military is based. I need a special permit. Similarly, all countries have their own rules to allow visitors in. Applicants must meet certain conditions insisted on by the host country. I had to meet the conditions of the US Government to visit USA. Similarly, there are conditions to visit Makkah. The condition is: You must recite from your heart "La illa-ha-ill-lal-lah, Mohammed-ur rasul Allah" (I bear witness that there is no object worthy of worship except Allah, and that Mohammed is the messenger of Allah).

Misconception # 11: Muslims wrongly don't eat pork

Reply: God has prohibited pork. There are several references even in the Bible where swine meat is prohibited. Science has associated 70 diseases with swine meat, the most dangerous being tapeworm, for which there is no cure. It causes irreparable damage to the insides of human beings. Even if a pig has been raised on a farm and its flesh is cooked very well at high temperatures, certain germs never die. The pig is a filthy animal; it eats human excreta. It has to protective instinct for its female. It is a shameless animal. Therefore people who eat its flesh, have no shame if their females mate with other men.

need answer from similar media.......posted many a time before...once again..

LEADER ARTICLE: Making A Mockery Of Jihad

The terror attacks in India as well as abroad have created an impression that jihad is central to Quranic teaching. First of all, as we have asserted repeatedly, jihad does not mean war in the Quran as there are other words for it like qital and harb. Jihad has been used in the Quran in its root meaning i.e. to strive and to strive for betterment of society, to spread goodness (maruf) and contain evil (munkar).

But supposing jihad means war, as some Muslims believe, even then it isn’t central to Quranic teachings. The word jihad occurs in the Quran 41 times though not a single verse uses it in the sense of war. There are four most fundamental values in the Quran i.e. justice (’adl), benevolence (ihsan), compassion (rahmah) and wisdom (hikmah). Thus, the Quran is an embodiment of these values and a Muslim is duty-bound to practise them above all. One who fails to practise these values can hardly claim to be a true Muslim. Jihad is not even obligatory in Islamic jurisprudence whereas these values are indicative of a Muslim’s character and hence quite important. It would be seen that compassion is most central to Quranic teachings. The words “compassion” and “mercy” in their various forms occur in the Quran 335 times as against only 41 for jihad.

There is great emphasis in the Quran on justice in all social and political matters and it uses three words for justice — ’adl, qist and hakama. These three words occur 244 times in the Quran. To seek revenge is human weakness, not strength. Thus, a devout Muslim tends to forgive like Allah who forgives his servants if they sincerely repent. Those who are waging jihad in the form of terror attacks are bent upon seeking revenge whereas a good Muslim would tend to forgive just as Allah does.

In Shariah law, jihad can be declared only by the state or those empowered by it. Terror attacks, on the other hand, are planned and executed by a few individuals unrepresentative of any state or state institution. So their attacks cannot be legitimate by any Islamic or Shariah law. That is nothing but committing murder of innocent people. Also, according to Islamic laws, in jihad no non-combatant can be attacked, much less women, children and old persons and no civilian property can be destroyed unless it is being used for military purposes or for purposes of combat.

It can be seen that the rules laid down for war by Islamic laws are no different from modern laws of warfare or the Geneva conventions. But terror attacks are a gross violation of all these Islamic rules and there is no way these attacks can be characterised as jihad. The terrorists are described by the media as jihadis. This is a gross misuse of the word as there is no word like jihadi in the Arabic language. It is in fact ‘mujahid’ and it is used in a laudatory sense — one who devotes oneself to a good cause like fighting against social evils.

The Quran advises Muslims: “And cast not yourselves to destruction with your own hands and do good (to others). Surely Allah loves the doers of good.” This advice of the Quran not to throw oneself to destruction with one’s own hands is important and relevant even today. What did the 9/11 attack result in? Did al-Qaeda not invite great disaster to the entire Islamic world, especially in Afghanistan and Iraq? Did they not throw themselves into perdition with their own hands? What good did that attack do to anyone ? Was there any wisdom in that rash and ruthless attack?

Revenge only satisfies our ego and injures the ego of the enemy and thus the war of attrition continues. What terrorists are doing is seeking revenge and that too from a weaker position. Every attack brings nothing but disaster for themselves and others. Various verses quoted to justify jihad are generally taken in a literal sense and ignore the value system of the Quran. It is a well-known fact that be it al-Qaeda or any other terrorist organisation, they do not represent any government or larger Muslim organisation. They succeed in mobilising some angry youth who are carried away by ‘Islamic’ rhetoric and commit terrorist attacks taking lives of innocent people. These attacks violate all Quranic values.

Seventh century Arabia cannot be compared to conditions in the contemporary world. Today’s world is radically different from that period and we should go more by Quranic ethics than injunctions about war. There are several institutions now available for arbitration, reconciliation and solving disputes. One should not rush to resort to violence.

In the Indian context, one cannot avenge communal violence by terrorist attacks on innocent Hindus and Muslims in marketplaces. It is the same sin which communal forces committed against innocent Muslims. Wisdom requires that one should patiently mobilise public opinion through democratic means, win over the hearts of common people and expose communal and fascist forces.

One hopes that the misguided Muslim youth resorting to violent actions will realise the futility of terror attacks and renounce such sinful and criminal acts, concentrating instead on excelling in learning and acquiring a superior moral character. Did not the Prophet say that the “ink of a scholar is superior to the blood of the martyr”?

Victory,

Islam is generally seen by some non-Muslims, as a threat, because of several reasons, such as:

1. Most of the violence worldwide is done in the name of that religion.

2. Contrary to most of other religions that are mostly kept private and are seen as the relation between the individual and god, respecting each individual’s degree of commitment or even non commitment, Muslims feel the need to display their religion’s commitment. Not only they feel the need to display but to measure and judge others. This causes a tremendous pressure on the individual who struggles between what he practices and what he wants or feels need to show. This stimulates moral policing (rejected by human nature, particularly by non Muslims in general) and defensive and protective modes which result in hypocrisy.

3. The Koran does incite violence against the “enemy” that is why the extremists think that they are doing the right thing.

4. On the other hand, even knowing that those extremists are a minority, the majority of good Muslims don’t voice their views in public against Islamists. Leaving the impression that they consider "Infidels" worse than "Islamists".

Thanks for the advice...i admit that i almost never check the history of QL members..

Why Islam is always seen as a Threat to Western Society?

if you are a muslim posting something related to islam then it gets turned off by the mod unless it is posted in the religion forum. If it is by non muslims everythings ok

even if its not in the religious forum

Carlitos,

Don’t bother with the dumb guy, he just signed in QL and went to as many post as he could to provoke argument with no ability to discuss.

Just ignore the imbecile!

From Italian Constitution...

Certain decisions of the Italian Constitutional Court have gradually introduced a concept of laicity conceived as nonconfessionality. On March 1, 2000 the Italian Court of Penal Cassation employed this concept in its decision No. 4273 and derived from it the obligation of neutrality in places of public administration, in particular in schools and polling stations. The neutrality of public places would prohibit displaying there the symbols of a religion.

So go back to your books...

note to the mods...why two threads about the same topic allowed?

Its all changed now. and you can see the old users they have left and stopped posting.

QL has changed...

i can't believe that after my 3years in QL a thread i posted 2 days ago was deleted by mods with the note " religious topics should only be discussed in religious group"!!!the thing is my post wasn't really about religion , it was about religious reforms

Good question.

the mods need spanking now.

let me get my whip.

Switzerland is a laic country (as France, as Spain....), means that Religion will be teach or touched .... To allow everybody to attend the school.....

It's just simple as that...

compared to GCC, where the major local population follows Islam and stand by.

In Switz, this is the demand from local people...

Why to indulge in great detail and history of Europe?

Lets stay with basic...what muslims are asking for, just to provide a proper place for prayers with properly designed mosques with minarets.

Is that making the whole nation to as "Islamic"? I doubt, it is like making a mountain out of a mole hill!

Is it wrong in any way?

Why Islam is always seen as a Threat to Western Society?

I agree but this is the choice we make to send that extra money home .

We feel these restrictions because we take them for granted all our life but many people are quite happy as most of the time they are not even aware of these liberties ,rights or social activities.

Many embasseys have now black listed rouge employers and have put in the minimum wage requirements before they allow their citizens to work here in gulf and employers have to follow these guidelines if they need manpower.

like I said earlier it is more of what an employee should demand before comming here and see that the employer obligations are fulfilled as per the contract.

which is money.

And I think you misunderstand my point that you quoted above. I was saying that things here aren't so fabulous for most people. Yeah, we might make more money than we would back home, but we give up a lot of other things to be able to do that.

We all compromise by working here. Fewer rights and liberties. Poorer living conditions (for many). Fewer social outlets and options. Less buying power for their money. Away from family and friends. Lack of cultural activities (theater/music/art world). The absurd climate and heat that is Qatar in the summer.

In the end, they/we still send money home, and for that, most are willing to swallow quite a bit of crap.

"If you're looking for sympathy, you'll find it between sh*t and syphilis in the dictionary."

- David Sedaris

Ummjake the logic says that we should have it better here than in our home countries to make this worthwhile we are not here on a social or political crusade we are here because they make it worth while for us to leave our comfy homes to move and work here.so I disagree with you that "......foreigners here have it SO much better than they would back home. "

The way to handle things here is different than in weatern countries where the authorities work only after there is full circus of 36 shows but the relive to poor worker is effective nonthless.

Improvement in condition of workers in europe is not due to the social benovalance of the goverments there but active action and demand of the people effected. By same token expat labour and the countries from where they are sourced should demand what they need and refuse anything else.

As I said ..... I got rambling in a sleepy state! Agree with you UmmJake - there are definite improvements that we can only hope will be made inshallah!

with my life here and have freely chosen to live here, with all the good and bad that that move entails.

But seriously, it's luck of the draw with a political system like they have here. Thank God, his and her highnesses are forward-thinking and care about establishing certain things in their country for the future of its citizenry.

But let's not overlook the fact that when you have a ruling family and you do not elect your leaders, you are basically at their mercy. The money this country has at its disposal buys it a great deal of leeway when it comes to various things. We don't get taxed but then having a system of taxation also gives you some say in how the government is doing things. Luckily for us, Qatar also wants a certain image to be presented to the world, so there is some pressure to do things in a way or fashion that shows Qatar in a good light or gains it some prestige in the eyes of the west.

No country is immune from having bad policies and practices, I know. But I think the migrant workers here who have very little in the way of legal rights or advocacy would question your depiction of this system as such a benevolent one. When they can go months without being paid, living in sub-human conditions that we in the west wouldn't let our dogs in live in, then I have a hard time seeing this system as being so much better than the ones most of us have back in our own countries.

I would venture to say that in the Netherlands or Canada, if a company failed to pay 500 Nepali workers for several months, there'd be a HUGE stink about it and the company's name would be splashed across the front page of the newspaper, government agencies would get involved, and the situation wouldn't become one where the company gets a slap on the wrist, finally pays them all, flies them out, then flies in another group of 500 only to do the same crap all over again without meaningful consequence.

Again, I can certainly appreciate how much Sh. Hamad has done for this country to advance it to where it is now, but let's be frank and acknowledge that the system here also leaves a great deal to be desired. No unions or public demonstrations. Sponsors who routinely retain employees' passports. Lack of a free press. Inequitable application of laws based upon one's nationality. A court system that is slow to work and questionable if you are up against a local....and many other things.

So while I am appreciative of the life I lead here, I don't think you should make it sound like the majority of the foreigners here have it SO much better than they would back home. Most come here for a better salary than they could make back home, but the sacrifice and trade-off they make for that is considerable.

"If you're looking for sympathy, you'll find it between sh*t and syphilis in the dictionary."

- David Sedaris

rehanbutt.... but why just look the other way and pretend everything is great (or at least look the other way and pretend to ignore it?)

Yes I am a guest worker, and am happy to be in the Middle East. However, I am not here just for the money.

I like my life style here. I like the fact that my kids learn Arabic at good schools. I like knowing my food is always halal. I like being able to find a mosque whenever i need one. And the list goes on.

Yes, in the west we have democracies, but when was the last time these countries really listened to the long term needs of the public rather than short term, vote grabbing headlines. The advantage of living in an Emirate/Kindom, is that the same ruling family can actually take a long term view of the needs of his people and act accordingly.

Wanting what is best for a country requires debating issues with people that can enact change. For the good of these countries it is important to provide decent facilities for the guests. If I invite somebody into my house, they are treated with the best I can offer, not ignored until they leave! Must be late, I seem to be rambling on rather than making a point.......... good night all.

madimad with same reasonning muslims in predominately christian countries can look forward to what they want..

but the difference with you and them is

- they are CITIZENS you are GUEST WORKER......

- they are flag carriers of human rights and democracy countries of gulf are emirats /kingdoms.

so take the money and enjoy in your home country . dont comapre apples and peaches ..... Europe has to deal with its minorities and minorities in europe has to sort this with their govts.

madimad... another smart input!!!! totally agree with you!

And as for the christmas decorations etc...

Why invite a people into your country and then get upset if they want/expect to follow at least a little bit of their tradition.

If you dont want christian traditions / decorations in a muslim country, then simply just dont invite christians into your country.

If however, you want or need these people to help build the knowledge of your country, then why surely there has got to be a bit of giving back as well (not just money).

I would prefer to see christmas decorations and churches than pubs and clubs any day!

Still dont understand (any) people that dont (a) make an effort to get along with EVERYONE, and (b) dont contribute to the society in which they live.

If only we all did that, most of these issues would be solved. Its not even very hard...

"If you're looking for sympathy, you'll find it between sh*t and syphilis in the dictionary."

- David Sedaris

And if you cannot beat them, join them. I mean convert back to be accepted and compitable by the host country

Can someone explain the difference between minarets in Switzerland and Christmas trees is Doha in the light of this article in yesterday's Gulf Times?

Scholar criticises public celebrations of Christmas

By Anwar Elshamy

Staff Reporter

Qaradawi: slams “un-Islamic” practice

Prominent Islamic scholar Sheikh Yousuf al-Qaradawi yesterday criticised the public celebrations of Christmas in Qatar, saying that such celebrations would “undermine” the country’s Islamic identity.

In his Friday sermon, Sheikh Qaradawi called the current practice of displaying Christmas trees and other Christmas-related decorations by local stores “un-Islamic”.

“This is not the image of the Muslim capital city of Doha,” Sheikh Qaradawi told a congregation of faithful at the Omar bin al-Khattab mosque at the Khalifa town.

“I don’t know if we are in a Muslim or Christian community. It is unreasonable that such celebrations can take place in Qatar which lies in the Arab peninsula and whose native population is Muslim,” he said

move on this has already been discussed in olive thread literally quite bare

http://www.qatarlivi...

And I believe the real trouble makers are not the families who have been living in Europe and elsewhere for generations... the problem makers are the newly arrivals who do anything on earth to get an EU passport.

I know that the majority of european families have foreign backgrounds... as do mine. The newly arrivals, the ones who believe they can do their own justice and their voices should be heard over everyone else's... these are the problem makers.

I just believe we have to respect the tradition and habits and values of the place we live in. Regardless the reasons for that.

We should respect and we should NOT TRY TO IMPOSE our religion on others. Thats all. The problem is that when some religions dont accept others.

Put you handbags away everyone!

The whole attitude of "if you dont like it, leave" is so childish and short-sighted.

For many - in fact muslims living in Europe, this is THEIR home. The majority of muslims have not moved to Europe in the last few years, but came a generation or two ago, settled, worked, paid tax, raised their families etc in this country.

Yes, at some point, their family did not love there, but that is also true of most European countries. Take the UK - we have been invaded by so many other countries in the past, mixed our blood and lineage with theirs - so what do you describe as native "British"? Someone who has been in the country for a while and contributed, or just someone that has been there for a while and also happens to be white? I know, the arguments.... I am not a racist, but..... Yet all the comments that come after this pick out everybody that is simply not white.

And religion?? Come on, its not long ago that everybody in England was dancing naked in the moonlight worshipping rocks and trees - until we were invaded and conquered by the Romans who obliterated the "original" English religion of Paganism and forced Christianity on us. (and I apologise to any history buffs that can tell me of earlier religions).

Now, there is a need to separate hatred of people that dont benefit their country from that of a race/colour or religion. I hate in the UK that people come over and claim benefits without adding anything into the system. But I equally detest white "English" people that sit on their fat, lazy single mothered ar*e, getting pregnant (not sure who the father is) a few times purely to get the benefits because that is easier than having to work hard for it. It is easier however, to blame people that look different to you, rather than looking a bit closer to home.

Personally I dont think ANYONE should be entitled to benefits until they have contributed at least 3-5 years of tax.

If you dont want mosques with minarets, then personally, I have no issue with this.

But, this whole campaign is just promoting hatred. Hatred only ever breeds hatred, and to blame one party solely on this is immature.

There is no point comparing Switzerland to Qatar. Yes it is a GREAT pity there are not more churches here, and I for one will continue to try and address this in ME countries in my professional capacity.

One more question for Carol etc. - For white, European muslims like me (and there are a LOT of us) - where do you suggest we go???

StoneCold... AGREE WITH YOU IN EVERY WAYS!!!!

As I said before, if life for muslims in a non muslim country is sooooo bad... well, go and make your lives in a country where the majority people follow your believes.

Swiss people have all the right in the world to choose what they want to see outside their homes. They made the country, they pay their taxes, they respect the law, it is THEIR home.

Over here, do we go screaming and yelling about what we agree or not? How many expats are complaining about not having a decent church to go pray??????

WHOEVER IS NOT HAPPY WITH THEIR HARD LIFE IN EUROPE... GO HOME!!!!!!

Another big difference that some have mentioned is the matter of citizenship. Some say that the swiss muslims should have greater rights than expatriates such as in Qatar because they have citizenship there. However you CANNOT get citizenship here. And the vast majority of muslims in Switzerland and many other parts of Europe are immigrants; they have citizenship through imigration which you cannot obtain here. It seems that the idea of right and wrong is being pushed aside in favor political manipulations. And I agree that one of the main reasons for immigration to open soceities is not as much to become a part of that society as it is to take advantage of it. People who have lived in open societies for generations understand that one of the keys to having rights for individuals is that individuals should exercise some restaint and not try to take advantage of the system.

_______________________________________________________

"A Wise Man knows what he does not know!"

the Swiss want to protect their religious identity,,,and I don't think its a matter concerning religion,,,,the Swiss simply don't want to have Islam in front of their faces all the time,,,,

I don't believe Islam is regarded well at all, and they don't want it too visible,,,,

They can always leave for a third country if they find life in switzeland too difficult to bear on. The swiss have every right to say no for the sake of protecting their religious entity. So the saying goes..."when in Rome, do what the Roman do".

did the muslims claim that swiss will suffer because of their decision or was it the western newspapers who went around tom-tomming that there will be problems with the muslim world. Its a real strange world out here.

posted here ummjake. :) http://www.qatarliving.com/node/834307

http://www.slate.com/id/2237635/

"If you're looking for sympathy, you'll find it between sh*t and syphilis in the dictionary."

- David Sedaris

If you look at the poster, what message does it deliver?

is it to do with just Minarets or is it sending a wider message?

The Swiss have a right to ban Minarets if they wish. i just find it strange that a nation professing neutrality in just about everything should be mobilized to vote for such a "monor" issue relating to architecture :O)

Dreadful propoganda...

Blatantly equating Islam with Female genital mutilation among other things. Absolute disgrace. This is what bothers me more than a planning limitation.

However, what irritates me more is that we muslims (of all colours and creeds including whiteys like me) give the ammunition that these people need...

Regarding the churches vs mosques in arab countries and western, I think its a HUGE pity that there are not more churches being built here in the Middle East. I have been involved in the masterplanning of Dubai for a few years now, and have always pushed unsuccessfully to get these incorporated into masterplanned developments, however, it seems that the powers that be would prefer Christians to go and get drunk in bars than attend church! Madness....

Churches were orginally protected under Islam and could not even be turned into mosques, and there was, and should be a great respect between these 2 religions. So much in common, yet the little things seem to create so much tension.

Looking forward to arriving in Qatar in Jan and will hopefully take a more active part in discussions soon!

(which is a type of fabric) :-)

I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM

ummjake... I agree with you. I really do, and phoenix2009... I am sure if you asked most real citizens in Europe - the ones whose families have been there for generation and are a real part of the culture - they are not really happy with how easy it is for anyone to put their hands on an EU passport.

I do think if you are not happy respecting the place you live at, just go away. I might not agree with LOADS of things that are part of qatari culture, but i respect it all. I dont scream and yell about somethings I see happening here, I dont demand having a decent church that looks like a church and has a big cross for me to go to... I respect even the habits that I dont agree with.

And I dont see many non uslins doing a big song and dance about it either. We know how they live here, we came here because this place needs expats, we are here for a little while and then go home... the few ones who for some reason like this place enough to live here long term stay here and you dont hear them going on about having to adjust...

the ones like me, well... when I have enough I leave. As simple as that. If muslins are not happy in a non muslin country, I am sure muslin countries will welcome them all.

has a right to maintain its cultural identity? They're a predominantly secular (Christian traditionally) society. So women in niqab and minarets sandwiched between little Swiss chalets just don't fit what they want their country to look like.

Nobody is prohibiting people from practicing their religion. They just don't want the face of Switzerland to change from that of its historical roots.

And yeah, it was a powerful poster...not hard to read between the lines there!

"If you're looking for sympathy, you'll find it between sh*t and syphilis in the dictionary."

- David Sedaris

thank you brit, i was just about to post it

Yalla!

As a dear colleague said.. Never underestimate the power of propoganda ..

Would you agree with the message of this poster ?

carol your approach is a bit bias, muslims in europe have passports and are citizens. you are moving in your comments to a grey area.

when you welcome someone in your home and grant him a share of it in return to his services, imposing laws on him, you can't just treat him as outsider anymore. if You as a cohabitant do not agree with the home owner's policies and "generousity" you should complain to him (owner) not try to ban your cohabitants of what they've earned.

if certain cohabitants acted unlawfully, the owner should take care of it, He knows what is best for the whole Home.

besides, i don't think muslims in switzerland did any harm to deserve the campaign held by the christian party, showing muslim women as black sheep in "abaya" and showing the swiss white cross covered by black minarates, it was really harsh and ridiculously pushing on Islamophobia in order to get the votes the way they want.

Yalla!

And why should muslins be conceded political power in europe anyway? I think if at least Europe saw a little gratitude, a little respect from them... but all we get is anger and their will to attack anyone who is different from them.

And if the anxiety levels are these high... well, I think muslins have given the rest of the world enough reasons for that. The fact they cannot act peacefully when they want to be heard is frightening.

it was a long while ago that the west went through the last period like this.

I am objective on this issue, however, I believe this is only the start,,,,

For Switzerland to vote like this means that the anxiety level is extremely high,,,,I believe thT there will be now a move of Muslims out of Europe because things will become much hotter.

I am currently siting in a cafe in the former Soviet Union...this is a political society, where politics is the main focus (always was),,,Europe, like North America is commercially focused,,,,Muslim societies are focused on religion to advance political interests. This is what the backlash is about.

The west will refuse to concede any political power to the Muslims in Europe.

Its all quite interesting actually.

rest of the EU countries will follow Swiss in coming days...lol, gotta go

I also agree with PM... I think immigration laws should be way harder. I think Europe gives out passports way too easy.

If they have a place to hold prayers and meet with their Muslims brothers and sister, what does it matter if there is a tall tower (minaret) attached to the building or not?

They aren't banning mosques per se, simply saying that they want them to not stick out among the local architecture.

"If you're looking for sympathy, you'll find it between sh*t and syphilis in the dictionary."

- David Sedaris

...with a crescent moon.

"Everything in this book may be wrong." Illusions: The Adventures of The Reluctant Messiah by Richard Bach

Swiss is a secular country that has no reason nor law to stop any religion development.....

Life is a continual upgrade. ~JMW

Now it's time to call for a boycott of all Swiss products, including Nestle and Swiss watches!

Muslims are the second largest community in Switzerland, they are granted upon their nationality all the rights of a citizen, thus their request should be dealt with as an internal swiss governmental issue, while here in arab world the majority of christians(if not all) are not citizens, they all are "visitors" with limited rights, therefore it's a long long process to think of building churches in arab world.

Comparing the situation of muslims in europe as citizens of the countries with the visitors christians in arab world is not accurate.

Yalla!

Its been pointed out on the news that economically Switzerland is going to be hurt by their decision given Muslim banking and tourism etc I think in the end they will realize it would of been better to maybe say the minarets could only be a certain size rather than deny them altogether. Carol in her post above does not mention the man who started the fight against minarets sees them not as a religious sign but as a POLITICAL ONE, so nothing in their mind to do with religion he is afraid of Sharia law. Plus, churches are getting built in the MiddleEast and in the past you could attend church but not in a church type building, it doesn't matter the building but the intention.

PM...ur clearly an ignoramous.......do one matey

and carol whoever whatever you are, dont always equate muslim with arab. We muslims come in all shapes, sizes, colours....hek, even white european ones!!!!

btw if no one likes a hater...if you hate the arab world, leave. We've all had enough of neo cons and are sick!!! of neo colonialists. White and west isnt supreme, its just different. Everyone has their faults, you guys should go read up on the history of your countries, what you did, what you are still doing.

One last thing: demographics...... a lot of muslims in the world....a lot more to come inshallah. Deal with it.

lol

minarets look good! the churches are empty, so what if they want minarets?

dear me

but you can't say that you have religious freedom and then pass a law that targets a specific religion and their practices.

As to why they don't respect the all the governments have given them -- I think they are largely a very ungrateful bunch who have set out to immigrate and take advantage of their host country without offering much in return.

I personally would rather see much tighter controls on immigration or maybe end it all together. It is currently a very lopsided practice that threatens the Western way of life and their freedoms if enough people are allowed to immigrate.

I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM

Thats right PM. But then shouldnt the muslins who go overseas to make their lives there just respect the decisions those countries make? Their culture and traditions?

As democratic countries, the majority has the right of decide what to do. Why cant muslin foreigners - who take advantage of what the swiss goverment offers them - cannot just respect these decisions?

Anyway, it is very frustrating. Non muslins are always giving in in this regard.

and the Arab world doesn't even pretend to have that. They know how to use the system to their advantage -- simple as that.

I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM