Belgium set to ban "walking prisons"

John Of Arc, many of the countries of my region were colonized by the West. In fact many like to stay engaged in their extended cultural heritage (leftovers). Colonization era has left good marks and impressive imprints here and there.

I don't think we fear the West, in the mean time, we're more upset with it and busier with our internal differences.

first fine imposed for wearing the veil..

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europe/2010/05/201054103156435427.html

It is a feminine quality to look beautiful. A girl child likes to groom herself, dress up nicely whereas for boys its always wwf, car race etc.

For me covering up in veils is nothing less than slavery.

was this rule in force when these people were granted their citizenship?

it has always been against the law in canada to conceal your identity with the exception of halloween night

Right gadarene. Muslims out of Belgium. If you don't like it, go back to where you came from.

Don't see the point of this debate...their country,their rules...i have stated this before on the thread re: the proposed ban on face veils in Canada & i will state it here again,if my wife & other expat women respect local cultural views & don't expose their shoulders,don't wear shorts in public despite the murderous mercury levels & if i don't kiss my wife in public or display any form of affection that we would consider normal in the real world,why should this be an issue with muslims in Belgium? i'm not muslim,neither is my wife but we currently live here & therefore respect the law of the land...& similarily so should anyone living in Belgium,France & whereever else this ban applies...& if they don't,to quote the favourite line of some QL'ers,"don't like the rules,leave the country" very simple...of course these veiled people ALL want that Belgian passport as it opens so many doors that would otherwise be closed to them around the world BUT they don't want to follow Belgium's rules...typically human hypocricy as usual...

A law making Belgium Europe’s first country to ban the burka was scuppered at the last moment yesterday after the collapse of the coalition government.

MPs were hours from voting on proposals to outlaw full face veils when parliament was thrown into disarray with the resignation of prime minister Yves Leterme after only five months in office.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1267911/Belgium-set-ban-burka-jail-women-covering-up.html#ixzz0lvp1qffS

http://qatarvibes.webs.com/

this is all to score a few brownie points from the electorate. Too bad if the locals see through it.

Looks like belgian govt itself is about to fall. This becomes an easy target to some much needed votes.

Westerners have anyway a warped notion of dress sense. Less said the better.

muslim shuld stay in thier countries

anyting masked is harmful for environment

is the european society affected by veiled women? will it affect their economy, their society if women cover their faces?

till the trumphet is blown

Panadol works so fast..........within minutes you get relief from a nasty headache.........

Ok see you there.

thats right, i just listened to the news this evening and thus she was in my mind..

ok, i will be there in orion..about 1/2 hour from now..

rishimba that girl has won her divorce case. Thankfully she is getting a divorce now.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article7104248.ece

Are you joining for beer tonight, we are about to head that way.

saudi is such a country where the court upholds the marriage of a 12 year old girl with her 80 years old rapist...this happened this year in february.

can you ever stay in a country where such double standards of human values are practised?

look at Saudi. If there were no Western compounds, very few western or even non practicing Muslim people would be there.

As it is, Saudi is bursting with non muslim and non practicing muslim Expats.

one shot, I agree. If that is what they want, they should do it. Thing is, no person who actually wants to expose her body would then come to those places. And that would be a problem...for those places.

they should imprison every woman for 7 days who expose her body in public locations in Islamic countries

very simple, it is also a voting and a freedom

right???

or we have to call it "bad Attitude from ignorant Muslims"????

Even Europe, North America & Islamic countries will co-exist. Money & greed is the glue that's going to keep holding them together. Since they can't do away with each other, they will keep making themselves happy by small & insignificant things like banning veils in their countries. Reminds me of children bickering amongst themselves.

If I am talking about the East, just to clarify, I am talking , in the connection of this thread, I man Islamic/ Muslim countries. NOT India, China etc.

The problems in Europe , in connection with this thread, have nothing to do with Indians or Chinese.

Can we now, please, focus on what is at hand, and not on India?

nomerci you said "The West will keep their noses and all that goes with it out of the East."

Hate to break it to you but QL & Qatar is not all there is to east. There are a few more countries and considering the fact that nearly 40 % of the world's population lives in India & China, every generalisation that you made in your previous comments has to involve them too.

Whyte, how many Indian Muslims live in Europe?

This, as strange as that may be nowadays on QL, is NOT about India.

nomerci you were asking about East-West so I gave you views on that. India has plenty of Muslims as well by the way.

Oryx they do try to rip off tourists, Delhi is blessed with more than its fair share of tricksters :P

WK,we are talking about Muslims here. Not Hindus etc.Or do Hindus war burkha?

on my recent little jaunt to india a kind Hindu couple took me under their wing to give offerings at a Hindu temple. I was then shown what to do at lunch at a Sikh temple and enjoyed hospitality at the Buddhist temple.

I really enjoy that sort of multiculturalism....

BTW got to the mosque in Delhi and they tried to rip me off with a bogus entrance ticket! I just said Allah Kareem and walked away

nomerci it's not true that everyone hates the west in the east. Before coming to Qatar, I never met anyone who would say I hate the west. A lot of our elders in India will scold us for copying western culture in our lifestyle but they didn't hate the west, they blamed us and good old MTV for copying the west. It's only on QL that I for the first time saw people hating the west for anything and everything. I can't speak for the west, maybe they are fed up of east now and want to stay away and are wary of granting more Visas to the people from the east. It has become difficult to get a Visa of US/UK/Canada post 9/11 but still there are a lot of Asians making their way there and I see a lot more westerners working in Delhi now compared to 10 years back.

The tolerance levels are low in today's world specially in these parts from what I have seen but the majority isn't consumed with hatred in this world. In today's globalised economic environment, they have no option but to co-exist and accept each other for who they are.

Oryx, yes, I know, I am not underestimating the hatred and double standard. And I also agree that we should allow the Muslim brotherhood to deal with the issues. Thing is, the West does not understand what they are dealing with.

Btw, I like the way you put it.

Alas yes - people who have never ever been to the West despise it but would love to have the right to live there.

Don't underestimate how much we are actually hated.

I do think we should step back, bow out etc and allow the Muslim brotherhood to deal with such issues as Palestine etc

Carry on ur mission, disparate oldies will never understand you. :P

good luck with your imagination whyte. Unless both sides become a lot more accepting and tolerant, multicultural living has zero chance. IMHO. And, I do not see a heightening of tolerance levels happening in the near future.

Look around you. The West is despised in the East, and in the West they are fed up with the East. So, where does that leave your idea?

You pervert you only want to see women... Grrrrrrrrr

As for people in west staying in west and from East staying in East, don't make me laugh. Not everyone thinks like you two and I can only imagine multi-cultural societies in future.

u know, i'm straight, ask pajju, he might love to see you ;)

Dot.com you have any objections if I expose like stone age :P

dot com, yes, I am fairly sure that will happen soon. The West will keep their noses and all that goes with it out of the East. Lesson learned.

Olive, yes, that's exactly what it is.

rishimba, of course the non conservative ones will stay. Nobody has a problem with them.

i've no objection, if u and ur companions wear full, half or even wanna expose like early stone age, or like tribes of Amazon's forest. :P

niqab whatever

well, same goes for the west if they can keep their $$a's back in their home, and stop poking their nose in east.

And by the way unlike Olive I find nothing negative about the negab or shayla and agree totally with Mehnis....

do you know how much fun you can have wearing a veil????

I agree with Non Merci its not about the veil its a symbolic statement.

Its a backlash from many in the West who are fed up with extreme Muslims ranting on and trying to tell us things like putting sharia law into our countries etc.

Most of Europe enjoys traditions of extreme tolerance and I guess they are fed up of the immigrants who have come over, been accommodated than then getting chastised by them.

The West gets blamed for everything that Muslims don't like about their society and fail to take responsibility for.

I guess the worm is beginning to turn - as the hand of kindness is fed up of getting bitten.

Olive, this is your wrong perception that women are forced to wear burka, majority of women who do this, similar to nuns for their self respect and dignity (by burka, mean covering herself, not necessary the face, which is called Nikab)

just like you indicated kicking your husband even if he ask you to, this show what sort of respect you may have for your better half.. on the other side Muslim women take great pride in respect they offer to their husband and husbands obviously in terms offer the same to her.

Surely law can be legalized that if a women complain about forcing it, but adding a general ban is plain stupidity.

WK, yeah i think so...but there may be a few like the ones who didnt allow the body scan at the airport...

rishimba nobody is going to leave. Everyone knows it.

maybe conservatives will leave and others stay back...

And of course, that the ones remaining will do as they are told, and adhere to the culture of their host country, at least somewhat.

Yes, of course. But what the authorities are thinking is this. That people rather leave or not come than to bow to the rules. At least that may be what they re hoping.

nomerci, i dont understand how this ban on the veil could remove them from the country? if they want to stay there they will still be there without the niqab.

rishimba, read my post on page one of the thread, it will explain it.

nomerci, what task?

Or she is a material possession that he won with the "contract" and wants to keep her under lock and key. Maybe they shouldn't be allowed to go out unsupervised also eh?

People, don't you understand? This is not about burka or veil per se. It is just a means to accomplish a task.

either the husband is too insecure or too ashamed to show her to the world..:)

Marriage is a contract? As per husband's choice? Why is it the husband's choice to jail the wife in a Burkha ? Because he is insecure? I wonder if there is a cure for narrow-mindedness.

There is no one way to make women stop wearing it sag, you need to change hearts and minds and especially start educating people about the emotional issues associated with covering women up in a black sack. That's why doing an out right ban won't work, it will make people cling to it more.

And frankly if my husband told me to wear a black sack over my head I'd kick him right out the front door.

perhaps it is husband's choice and she is obliiging. Marriage after all is a contract, right?

I'm not going to say it's degrading to women. But, how many Islamic Womens Rights groups have you heard of FU?

Some get pressured into wearing it by their family and society. There are the few who do it by choice as well. But not all of them do it by choice.

I know someone who didn't wear it, but started wearing it after marriage.

ok Olive how will you convince a woman not to wear burqa if she does it out of her choice? I am sure you cann't ask a stripper not to do it if she does it by choice!

They aren't opposing it because they are scared of the backlash from fundamentalists FU. And how do you know it isn't degrading to the women who wear it? Do you talk to many veiled women? The one's I've spoken to don't like the fact that they feel they are forced to wear it, either by their families or by societal pressures.

On a lighter note. Do you know how much fun burkha clad women and especially girls have??

ok deepb as per what you put before it is not mandatory as per islam, right? then why some women wear it? by choice right?

"some outdated cultural belief? The burka is degrading, plain and simple."

I say how can it be 'outdated' if hundereds of millions of muslim women all over the world still wear it. And it is degrading for 'outsiders' like you and me. Not for the ones who wear it. If it was so degrading,how come I don't see any mainstream muslim organization opposing Burkha in normal times.

ROFL nice one sag. Wait, we are not in the funnies section. Confusing

what i have listened in the morning news this morning, there are no more than a few hundred people like these in belgium and the state could have just ignored them..

it seems the state may have some security concerns as antisocial elements are sometimes found to be on the beat behind the veil and dont get caught by the camera..

frankly, it has nothing to do with dignity and its a false pretext!!

the person behind the niqab has to decide what brings her dignity..

Olive Burqa is no more forced. It is choice.

I'm sorry Happy Happy but am I supposed to support women being forced to hide their faces because of some outdated cultural belief? The burka is degrading, plain and simple.

Oh Shoot! I guess it's the Fourth Chapter, the First one was on Hope, I hope I remember correctly!

FU, it is all a matter of experience.

Problem for those countries is that their laws don't allow them to do what they really feel necessary.

I'am saying that these measures will make things difficult for these countries as it will bring it's minorities on the wrong side of socio-political divide. These countries cannot say to muslims 'You work in our factories,be productive,pay taxes but don't dress the way you want; dress the way 'we' want.' Thats what makes this legislation funny IMO.

The Geopolitics of Emotion by French Dominique Moisi, read the first Chapter on the Culture of Fear.

How does it alienate Muslim populations when it's not a religious requirement to wear burkha? It might alienate the cultures that require a burkha, not all Muslims on the whole.

So FU, what you are saying is this "Let us do as we wish, otherwise we will bomb you" ?

That's exactly what the Western countries are seeing. hence my post above.

Olive I do think that banning is not the right thing to do but not for the reason you mentioned. Just educate and hope what you did.

neither a 'fashion statement' nor a religious requirement (debatable),it is more of an instrument of their identity and a 'cultural' one at that. Some countries not respecting that identity will lead to unrest in the already alienated muslim populations in these countries who look at 'western' way of life as that of deprivation and a road to hell. These 'small time' funny laws will only alienate these populations and might cause further extremism in otherwise liberal muslim communities..

It is only people that can change it through understanding, education and of course necessity. It can never be enforced upon considering that religious teachings are a way of life for most.

Burka is a serious security threat in today's world............beyond that it is just one of those numerous whims of human beings to prove their 'holier than tough attitude'...........utter nonsense and does not deserve so much hype.

Very poor comment, Olive!

I just don't think that banning it is the right way to go about it. I hate the burkha & veil and I hope they soon become a thing of the past like corsets & binding women's feet, however as with both of those things, they need to simply fade away and go out of style after being seen for what they are. If you ban it, it will only make people cling to it more.

Good point rishimba. According to what I've heard, it's only mandatory for your hair to be covered in Islam. The Burkha is not mandatory, and hence it's not really anti-Islamic.

It's really quite simple. they don't want them in their countries. That's really all there is to it. They had their experiences, and know now that they do not like it. Hence , they see to it, slowly but surely, that they go away. They have to do it as close to the existing laws as possible.

Plain truth, no need to beat around the bush.

can anyone tell me if covering of the face for ladies is mandatory as per the holy quran?

i think it was the interpretation of the muslim cleric abdul wahab and his followers who made it mandatory.

in that case, its not against the mainstream islam but only against wahabism...

i feel its a good move.

Freedom equality liberty are just concepts espoused everywhere. No man is really free. We are all born in chains of society, nationalism, ethnic insecurities and religious bigotry.

The countries that profess the highest ideals of freedom are living in the fear of being over run by those who are adopting the same ideals.

Change will come but from within. It is never complete when it is forced upon but when their own change. That is the fear.

FU actually I am all for individual freedom and think everyone should be allowed to wear what they want as long as it's not a security issue. Actually I argued for the same in another thread when someone was forced to remove her veil in Quebec. I was just playing devil's advocate for a while :)

Movement of people across borders is a economic necessity and if the culture of a particular group is totally unacceptable to you, why allow them inside your borders in the first place. This sounds extreme but isbetter than welcoming someone first and then insulting them with these 'one-off' legislations.

Eco-savvy, I get where you are coming from, but remember there're Western, Asian, and African Muslims in the world too. You cannot demand them all to migrate to the "Muslims region". (?)

A Muslim should be able to be one even if they were living or had to live in a bordello.(excuse my French)

I know what your next argument is going to be...:)

FU why doesn't the Middle east stop giving Visas to Non-Muslims? Does the enforcement of Islamic laws here expose their fear of other religions?

If these countries are coming up with legislations like this;maybe it will be a good idea for them to change their immigration laws altogether to exclude people who do not conform to their idea of National Identity. This move is simply ridiculous and has exposed the fear in these countries against advancing Islam. They have made themselves look foolish.

shouldnt complain about anything. They have to shut up and obey the rules

"This Digital Hijabi's death is very near",

Eco did you just predict something??

Predicting future can be interpreted as sorcery and you may be imprisoned under that as per Sharia Law

We don't lay any claim to any one piece of land. The earth is our play field. To come here to learn, experience and develop spiritually. To assist, heal and teach.

Ok where do spiritualists like me go to??

For us every religion is just a code of conduct, sets of rules for a healthy progressive life and for spiritual development. For us all boundaries and borders are political and there is only one human race.

I am already in bad books, trying some tricks to tear those pages where my name is written with squids ink

whyteknight, alrighty, no problems then...:)

Happy I know that, just responding to some people who think moving to Europe makes a person Non-Muslim :)

whyteknight, sorry, but believers are all over the world, you cannot possibly confine them to Saudi, Israel, and India.

I'm a Muslim and refuse to live in Saudi. I visit Saudi for the sole purpose of glancing and indulging myself in Madinah and Makkah.

Yaaaaaaayyyyyyy! I call the Caribbean. :)

Yep send all the Christians to the Vatican, all the Muslims to Saudi, all the Jews to israel, all the Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists to India. And then We Atheists will rule the rest of the world :)

New Muslims, or Muslims who born in Non Muslim countries.

When you really look a little deeper, Islam is the most recent of the major religions of the world. Everyone is a convert whether from other religious practices, atheism or just none earlier. So where do Muslims come from and where do they go?? The nations that are majority Muslim population are not necessarily the place to go back because of ethnicity.

The cultural values of every Muslim country or region differs from others as most ancient rites, ceremonies and habits have been incorporated in their understanding and practice of Islam. Arabia may be the cradle the Islamic teachings but certainly not home to all Muslims. Similarly there are millions of Europeans who are converts. Where do you send them to??

as a Muslim, its our duty to make solve our problem in our home, rather than escaping from the reality.

Unfortunately, most of us not following it.

Well according to Eco Muslims shouldn't be moving to live with us "kafir's" anyway. :p

Frankly I don't believe in a veil ban in anywhere but high security places (airports/hospitals/schools, etc). I don't think that's the way to go about making women stop wearing them.

i don't like either of.

much better to stay with moderate.

why not a Ban on All muslims who the hell want to move there, and leaving their home back in mess?

Well I'll take a broad minded person over a narrow minded person any day.

it should be "liberal extremist, or too much broad minded"

Dot.Com Liberals are in no way narrow minded. How is wanting equal rights and freedom for everyone narrow minded?

i'll happily define "liberal extremist", but first let me get answer of your first question from Saler :-)

You wana live there , respect the law of the land. be it belgium or Qatar. Or stay home coverd,burried or however you want it.

Saler575, define "religious" please.

Dot.Com, define "liberal" please.

This is not a quiz, I just believe these are made up terms that have various interpretations. A person who is both is not necessarily a walking contradiction.

Duniya Gol hain :P

Round and round we go just like my avatar.

Dot.com only one you should be scared of is Eco_Savvy, she is the deciding authority to decide who is a Muslim and who is not. Stay in her good books else you will be pronounced Non-Muslim

and liberals scare me. Its unbelievable how narrow minded they can be.

Religious people scare me. Ist unbelievable just how close minded they can be.

Dot.com I think so.

if i'm not mistaken, a few decades back, Hindu's were restricted by their religion, not to cross the oceans, and if they do so, they will not be considered as Hindu's?

Exactly, thanks ECo. All the Muslims in Europe can move back here then.

So the issue solved then, whoever has migrated to the west is not Muslim so they aren't required to cover themselves up anyway. Thanks for solving this Eco_savvy

Eco-savvy, there are practicing Muslim Europeans.

Allaah has commanded us to migrate from the kaafir lands to the lands of Islam, as He says:

“Verily, as for those whom the angels take (in death) while they are wronging themselves (as they stayed among the disbelievers even though emigration was obligatory for them), they (angels) say (to them): ‘In what (condition) were you?’ They reply: ‘We were weak and oppressed on the earth.’ They (angels) say: ‘Was not the earth of Allaah spacious enough for you to emigrate therein?’ Such men will find their abode in Hell — what an evil destination!

Except the weak ones among men, women and children who cannot devise a plan, nor are they able to direct their way”

[al-Nisa’ 4:97-98]

....Europe and the US have been living in massive fear, just like the Arab/Muslim world has been living in desperate humiliation.

The widening gap between the two, will only keep producing more disintegration, division, and revolting violence.

Veils weren't an issue in the West before because you rarely saw them. They're an issue now as more and more immigrants from Muslim countries pour into the West from their war torn hell holes.

WK definitely no right but then you have to really examine the real reasons. What is the need for them now? Why was all that concern for Muslim women not there earlier? Or is it an attempt to discredit a religion which is attracting so much attention? or is it fear or discomfort or discernment that so many are being attracted to its teachings?

This is how misdirection works in politics

So Mehnis they have NO right to object if some other country introduces some dress code.

Human rights???? What's that?

WK as I see it the libido of a Muslim man is conditioned to be free from restrictions. The fact that many women are looked upon as an object only to fulfill a man's needs whether keeping a house hold or bearing his children or satisfying him sexually. The Muslim man's mind has not progressed as per his convenience.

Banning short skirts is just an example of trying to keep his fantasies in check. Remember rules and laws, religious or otherwise though very protective of women are conveniently bent and misinterpreted.

You are in the wrong place, WK. Qatar is permanently violating Human Rights.

Because you obey, or because they have the Human Rights in their constitution?

LP luckily not everyone thinks like that, there are some parts of this world where I am not asked to leave if I complain about something.

Canada isn't afraid of Islam taking over Canada. But they do dislike the veil, but not for Islamaphobic reasons. (Well in Quebec it's more culturalphobic, but they're very big on keeping their "unique" :P culture)

Olive, "Eurabia", scares Europe. Canada has no care so far.

The question is, where you should go if you hear the same thing everywhere.

Canada is a very multicultural and accepting place, however the veil is just such a foreign concept to most Canadians (regardless of their ethnic & religious heritage) and is seen as abuse by the majority of Canadians. It's hard for many to be accepting of that.

LP I am trying to align my thoughts with them. Will make my time here more bearable I guess.

I know, WK. You talk like a Qatari.

Mehnis the ban on short skirts in Muslim countries, does that not show their inability to keep their libido in check?

Nobodies complaining about hijab Mehnis, this is about the veil, not the scarf or covering your hair.

The vote is in May Soniya. It has to go through Parliament so we'll see.

There is no comparison between Canada and Europe, at any level. Multiculturalism in Canada is one of the best advantages this country enjoys.

However, I'm not sure if it will stay the same.

LP after coming to Qatar, I learnt that this is the answer to every problem. If you don't like something, get out.

Are Non-Muslims allowed to dress the way they want here?

NOOOO

Ok veil and the full 'walking coffin ' is seen as an abuse and enslavement of women in the West. What about the just the basic scarf?? The French are dropping their pants in focusing on such a trivial thing. Does this not show the real nervousness in display of Muslim identity??

The talks are going on, olive..Mr.Sarkozy will do it soon..

Canada hasn't banned wearing the veil in public Soniya. One province (out of 10) is TALKING about it. But nothings been done as of yet.

France also hasn't banned it yet.

Comes as no surprise.

This is not a new case for us where a ban is supposed to implement on wearing NIQAB..Canada and France have already banned wearing NIQAB at public places..Its just a mere addition to the list of countries imposing ban on VEILS..

Right, WK. If you have a problem, leave the planet. Go to hell.

I've never seen anyone wearing a face mask in the west, that seems to be cultural only here for older women, but I suppose it would extend to that as well.

Mehnis, I don't buy that it's a security issue, I think it's just something that bothers people in the West because it's seen as a form of bondage and abuse towards women.

Their country, their rules. If someone has a problem, leave Belgium.

will it affect only the niqab? what about the face masks?

looks like french and belgians are running scared of a few 100 females wearing niqab!!!!

Even being brought up on the teachings of Islam I do not support the practice of enforcing the burkha. For for many it is a question of unequivocal display of cultural identity and personal choice. It probably was relevant in its introduction in that time but now even though it is not enforced in many places and among Muslim sects, it is worn by personal choice.

Most of the Western cultures are nervous about the Muslim social ethos and their commitment to their values. The fact that religion is above all for most of them is a bit disconcerting to them. All these seemingly small displays of authority stems from their insecurities and fear of being 'over run' by the Muslim culture.

Though every country has a right to impose rules and laws as they think fit, all recent happenings are not just a one off. It is part of a larger perspective.

I see no more dignity in a woman wearing a black sack over her face then I do in a stripper. To me their two sides of the same coin. The only difference is that the stripper chooses her life, women who wear niqab have it forced on them.

They say..."Its also a question of human dignity". Yeah, bring them their dignity back by removing their clothes as well. Let us get back to the stone age....and live with our Dignity.

Suicide Belts are tied on the waist.. not face.

Nuns don't cover their face nomansland.

It means the christian sisters who are offering services at church will also get jial & fine for wearing dress like veil

They have the right to impose ban.

Beast don't care for anyone else.