For Brit Expat
THis is in relation to our previous discussions about political correctness, criminal responsibility and insanity.
http://www.winnipegsun.com/news/winnipeg/2009/03/05/8634286-sun.html
Warning: The following story contains information that may be disturbing to some readers.
Lawyers for Vincent Li and the Crown joined together yesterday in urging a judge to find Li not criminally responsible for the gruesome slaying of Tim McLean aboard a Greyhound bus.
"The Crown can not ask this court to convict Mr. Li of second-degree murder when all the evidence points to the conclusion he was not criminally responsible for his actions," said Crown attorney Joyce Dalmyn yesterday in her closing argument before Justice John Scurfield.
Dalmyn expressed sympathy for the pain suffered by McLean's family, but said the Crown can not "take their direction" in determining an appropriate verdict.
Li's lawyer Alan Libman said the evidence to support Li was not criminally responsible for the killing "are as close to beyond a reasonable doubt as you can get."
McLean's family members have been vocal in their call Li be convicted of murder and sentenced to life in custody.
Outside court, McLean's mother said she was disappointed by the Crown's position, and described the trial as a "rubber stamp process."
"We knew this going in that this was very likely what was going to take place," said Carol deDelley.
"The laws are grossly inadequate in circumstances like this. NCR may have its place or may be correct in some circumstances. I don't think so, not in this one. And now every year we will have to undergo a review to ensure the public is safe from Mr. Li."
HALLUCINATIONS
Two forensic psychiatrists have testified Li suffers from schizophrenia and was under the thrall of auditory hallucinations when he stabbed, dismembered and decapitated McLean. The psychiatrists testified Li believed he was receiving directions from God to kill McLean.
Li believed McLean was an "evil force" that would murder Li if Li did not strike first.
The Crown and defence are asking Li remain in secure custody in the psychiatric ward of Health Sciences Centre until a hearing can be scheduled before the mental health review board. If found not criminally responsible for the killing, Li will almost certainly be committed to a mental facility in Selkirk.
Li will then be subject to annual reviews to determine whether he is a candidate for release.
Forensic psychiatrists Stanley Yaren and Jonathan Rootenberg each testified Li continues to suffer from psychotic episodes and remains a danger to both himself and the public.
Li, 40, immigrated from China in 2001 and became a Canadian citizen in 2005.
On Tuesday, court heard evidence Li was exhibiting symptoms of schizophrenia as early as 2003 when he was briefly hospitalized in Ontario after police picked him up wandering down the highway "following the sun." Li discharged himself and refused any follow-up treatment.
Both Yaren and Rootenberg rejected suggestions Li could be "faking" schizophrenia symptoms in an effort to escape responsibility for McLean's death.
"This is a man who has been observed 24 hours a day," Rootenberg said yesterday. "It does not appear he has been selective in relaying symptoms. It's very hard to fake if you try to keep that up 24 hours around the clock, on and on."
Scurfield adjourned delivering his verdict until this morning. Scurfield said he wanted time to review medical reports in the case and set down his verdict in writing.
"Hopefully (I can) express it in a way that is understandable to Mr. McLean's family, Mr. Li and the public in general," Scurfield said
Well from my knowledge of schizophrenia, one never "recovers" and only non-violents (ie the guy from a Beautiful Mind for example) are allowed to live in society. This guy has proven to be violent. The most he will ever recover enough is to go to an assisted living facility, where he and his meds will be monitored 24/7. I doubt he will even make it this far.
Gypsy said "This guy will never get out.. "
- Even when he "recovers"?
"Also, if he is ever declared legitimatly sane, he will have to stand trial."
- This is good but the uncertainty is that laws could change some years down the road. Can never say that he will never get out. He just might. Well, unless your ruling party is more or less rooted and unshakeable.
"In Canada a plea like this is usually just to not waste the courts time until the guy is considered mentally fit to stand trial. "
- Excellent and fair. I hope it stays that way.
*****************************************
Don't want no drama,
No, no drama, no, no, no, no drama
This guy will never get out, and having seen an insitute for the criminally insane (where this guy will go), it's not much different from a prision, just more psychologists and drugs.
This guy is going to be put on anti-psychotics, and probably a heap of them. He's going to spend most of his life in a drugged out stupor, drooling on a bib to keep him calm. Unless they come out with some kind of breakthrough cure for schizophrenia, we don't have to worry about him getting out.
Also, if he is ever declared legitimatly sane, he will have to stand trial. In Canada a plea like this is usually just to not waste the courts time until the guy is considered mentally fit to stand trail.
However we look at it, this man is mad. He has to be locked up.
Prison may not be right for him as he may not get 'treatment' but do we want this PERSON ‘treated’? He may then go mad again should he be let out.
Lock him up.
HE IS A DANGER.
Hello thread and britexpat.
Agreed. Unfortunately, some prosecutors are inexperienced,no proper evidence collected, botched up investigations, etc.
I was thinking also of some high profile criminals who pleaded DR but were in actual fact, cold calculating murderers. They knew the system and worked it well, to their advantage.
*****************************************
Don't want no drama,
No, no drama, no, no, no, no drama
I agree with you. However, how many times have we heard "expert evidence" from psychologists and then later found them to be wanting. A couple of years ago there was a case of children being taken from their parents because an "expert" said that there were signs of abuse. It took the parents over two years to disprove the guy and get their children back. Think of the anguish they all went through.
britexpat - "My point in our earlier discussions was that there are too many grey areas and IMHO as an ordinary citizen, it seems all too easy for lawyers to use "diminished capacity" as an excuse to get their clients off."
- Yes and no.
Yes, because it's the easiest way to stay out of prison (or the gallows, depending on which jurisdiction) and buys time while things change. AND, as Mandi said, "it is quite possible he could benefit enough from medication to be subsequently declared mentally competent and be let out."
No, because there are strict legal principles to adhere to in proving diminished capacity and it's not that easy to prove. You need expert evidence - and you can attack the "expert's" credibility and experience.
"Eg. Two forensic psychiatrists have testified Li suffers from schizophrenia and was under the thrall of auditory hallucinations"
- How many years experience? Exact same field or different one? Specifically any experience in auditory hallucinations or mere analogies? Actual experience dealing with Schizos? Hands on or merely supervisory? Previous conduct - exhibiting symptoms of schizophrenia as early as 2003.. specific details are crucial.
"This is a man who has been observed 24 hours a day,"
- Observation for how long? I think people can keep up pretenses for more than a year. Isn't there a scientific test to diagnose the problem - the lack of certain chemicals in the brain that causes episodes? The medical reports - the details are important.
Basically, whether those principles to ascertain the cogency and weight of evidence have been adequately followed would be the grounds for attack.
"the guy was on the bus prepared to commit this crime, it was not a whim. He brought along a plastic bag to take pieces of McLean home to eat later....Although, granted that doesn't prove that he realized what he was doing was wrong"
- that's precisely the point. My heart goes out to the family but if the medical reports show cogent evidence of Schizo - unfortunately, there will be no mens rea, thus not murder.
Senseless killings are tragic. We protect ourselves and our loved ones as best as we can but at the end of the day, some of us leave everything to a higher power. What would I do in their situation? Fight all out until every avenue I can see is exhausted and if I still can't win, then I would let it go. What goes around, comes around. Retribution comes in this life itself.
/Why don't I leave things in the first place? Because God gave me a brain and some abilities so I use it as best as I can, while busy praying at the same time. Actually, pray first, then jump in. When I can do no more, I leave things be.
//Ok. Last edit. Goodbye thread
*****************************************
Don't want no drama,
No, no drama, no, no, no, no drama
Tagged for later
*****************************************
Don't want no drama,
No, no drama, no, no, no, no drama
There's also the point that I think they are overlooking is that this guy was on the bus prepared to commit this crime, it was not a whim. He brought along a plastic bag to take pieces of McLean home to eat later....Although, granted that doesn't prove that he realized what he was doing was wrong.
Well I have to go with the crown in this one too, though I do feel sorry for the family, and I would assume he will end up in a mental instituion for life, which really isn't much of an improvement on a prison.
The problem is that if Li is remanded to a mental institution it is quite possible he could benefit enough from medication to be subsequently declared mentally competent and be let out. Then who monitors his medication compliance? I guess I'd prefer him off the streets. Harsh, I know. Schizophrenia is an illness, but this guy in his au naturale state has proven to be a danger to others.
Mandi
I would go along with the view of the Crown in this case, but my heart does go out to the family of the "victim".
My point in our earlier discussions was that there are too many grey areas and IMHO as an ordinary citizen, it seems all too easy for lawyers to use "diminished capacity" as an excuse to get their clients off.
In Mr Li's case, I would still go for a "life long" term in a mental institution.