Cleric married to 12 year old girl
Cleric defiant amid controversy over marriage to 12-year-old girl
Suherdjoko , The Jakarta Post , Semarang | Sat, 10/25/2008 1:02 PM | The Archipelago
The marriage of an underage girl to a wealthy Muslim cleric in Bedono village, Semarang regency, Central Java, has sparked controversy in the community.
A Muslim boarding school head, 43-year-old Pujiono Cahyo, known also as Syech Puji, married 12-year-old Lutfiana Ulfa at his home on August 8. He told reporters Friday that the wedding ceremony, held at 3 p.m. local time, was witnessed by thousands of guests.
"The wedding was carried out openly. If people want to comment, please do. I don't care about the legal threats because I have my own basic reasons. I know the limitations. If she hasn't menstruated, I won't have sexual intercourse with her," said Puji.
Puji is the director of PT Sinar Lendoh Terang and owner of the Miftahul Jannah boarding school, an impressive building along the highway between Semarang and Yogyakarta. Apparently his first wife, 26-tear-old Umi Hani, was the one who suggested he marry again.
"She was the one who proposed it. Then, a campaign team went looking for a prospective wife. So, not only politicians have campaign teams," he added jokingly.
He said he met Ulfa's parents for their consent and that Ulfa had also agreed to the marriage.
"So, what have I done wrong? My reasons stem from a book titled Aisyah Saja Nikah Muda (Aisyah Herself Married Young), written by Ummu Aisyah."
Puji revealed his intention to marry for a second time to reporters on Sept. 26, when he distributed Rp 1.3 billion (US$140,000) in tithes for the poor during the Ramadan fasting month.
An ulema at the Soko Tunggal Islamic boarding school in Semarang, Nuril Arifin Husein, strongly criticized Puji's marriage to the girl.
"If he claims to be a syech, which means professor, he should be a role model for the community. In Islam, a marriage should be a union of the same stature. What he has done is clearly against Islamic law," said Nuril.
"However, Prophet Muhammad only had intercourse with Aisyah when she had reached 18, meaning she was an adult. If Puji has sex with an underage girl, he will have violated religious and existing laws," he said.
Sri Mulyanah from Central Java Women's Empowerment and Children Rights and Family Planning Agency, said Puji violated the 1974 Marriage Law which requires a minimum age of 16 for a woman and 19 for a man in a legal marriage.
"If we look at the marriage and child protection laws, what Puji has done is definitely against the law. We will immediately discuss the issue with the relevant agencies and observe the case from various aspects. Later, we will decide on the appropriate action," she said.
Sri said children were entitled to the right to live, grow and develop while being provided with protection and participative rights.
If you see the Islamic literature this a big debatable issue and Islamic scholars differ over it and no one knows what excatly was the age of Prophet Muhammad's (PBUH)wife Aiyesha, no authentic source is there neighter it is mentioned in the Holy book Quran.
This Hadith cannot be correlated with any Aiyat of Quran Karim and at the same time all authenic Hadiths are corelated with the Holy Quran in some way and that is why they are called authentic. That is why the scholars say the doubt is there and the age cannot be ascertained.
Gypsy: I know and that's what i have just stated to Ph.
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
PH: No need to excuse yourself, we are having a debate ;)
I agree that's 1 of the main reasons but not sure if it was the only one, but i'll try to google this matter and will get back to you if i find any conclusive matter :)
I also agree with you when you say that the prob on muslim countries still is the lack of education, i saw it 1st hand at Morroco, i think that education will have an important row on women rights all over the world :).
P.S. - Gonna have lunch now, ;)
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
Gotta agree with PH on this one Plato, the West is no Utopia of women's rights, we still have to fight to get equal pay and treatment there, and 12 year olds still get married in some spots.
Kareena: Without intending to offend you in anyway i would like to correct 1 of your thoughts:
"He married his first wife Khatija when she was a 40 year old widow while he was a 25 year old young virgin lad.. Why doesn't anyone follow this sunnah? How often have you heard of a single virgin young man marrying a woman 15 years older than him?"
1st- if girl/guy is over 18 y and marries someone 15 y older it's ok.
2nd - Not sure what were the costumes in the 8th century but don't think it was that hard to be virgin with 25 years. This is personnal opinion, not attacking any faith.
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
Sorry plato.. talk to someone who is not in the know before you start sugar coating Europe..
The only reason Europe has given more rights to women is because we fought for them.. following the lead of America of course.
And there is still much to do to get rid of cultural stigmas against women in European countries.
In fact, i could argue that the islamic world (despite people like adnan) can sometimes (not all) be much more understanding of a woman's needs then pro western feminists.
We must also take into consideration that much of the Islamic world has suffered extreme poverty and lack of education for years. Using Qatar as an example we can see how women have benefited from Islamic concepts such as child custody, right to work, right to divorce, access to education, ability to travel, and owner of her own money. And that as the education of wealthier arabs grow the stigmas that try to keep us women down will soon become obsolete causing a butterfly effect in the muslim world.
PH/KAREENA: I fully agree with you, only remark i wanna make is that not all men use religion as a mean to opress women, in Europe, most men see women as an equal, but there are also some b***ards that opress women here. Good and evil are everywhere, no one has their exclusivity.
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
Ann .. no one can ever condone this kinda behaviour.. In the world we live in now its is just not acceptable,, no matter what the reason is..
-----------------
HE WHO DARES WINS
Kareena men have always used religion to oppress women. Thats why we as muslims need to stand up and fight against such oppression and regain our islamic rights! Despite the stigmas attached.
Surah 4 An-Nisa 135
O you who believe! Stand firmly for Justice, as witnesses to Allah, even though it be against your ownselves, or your parents, or your kin, be he rich or poor, Allah is a better protector to both (than you). So follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest you avoid justice; and if you distort your witness or refuse to give it, Verily, Allah is ever Well-Acquainted with what you do!
would you sleep with a child..?Just wondering as you condone this behaviour.If yes,then I understand what kind of man we are dealing with. I don't think that you are a parent yet and so there maybe some problem with you understanding where we are coming from.
Our prophet (pbuh) set an example for his ummah (followers of Islam)in all fields of life.. He married his first wife Khatija when she was a 40 year old widow while he was a 25 year old young virgin lad.. Why doesn't anyone follow this sunnah? How often have you heard of a single virgin young man marrying a woman 15 years older than him? He could do that and tell people I am following sunnah.. But no he would not do that.. But when it comes to marrying a much younger girl, he always reverts back to the same old story that our prophet married Ayesha who was old enough to be his daughter.. The bottom line is.. Men use religion according to their own convenience..
Hadiths or no hadiths, I think we've proven here that it's not physically or mentally healthy for this girl to marry this man.
Kareena I agree with your common sense!
It is common sense after all!
No I agree on its authenticity! And logicSays I never disagreed that it happened.
Like I said.. it is one of the most serious issues I personally have with Islam. I don't understand how an old man like the prophet could have sex with a little girl.
But maybe it had hikmah as she related so many hadith, was a leader, and helped give women rights we would not have had or understood should the marriage never exist.
However, it is very clear that sick old bastards have no right to do the same as HIS marriage situations was clearly very different then the rest of the muslims.
Muslims are not allowed to act on dreams! The Prophet SAW was unique in this regard.
I find the idea so revolting.. I am a 34 year old woman and I can't imagine sleeping with a 64 year old man.. That is a man 30 years older than me.. That poor girl has to go thru this ordeal every night.. I feel sorry for her.. Maybe she was brainwashed into doing this now when she is still a child but what about when she grows up into a young woman.. I bet you, once she is 18 and out in the world, she is going to dump this old man and run off with a young guy in his twenties.. Or maybe she will have an extra marital affair with her driver or anyone who is young & avaialble...
above all watever happened try to be in the limits.dont say somthing bad to the prophets or holy books. all were meant for the betterment of humanity. its the freaky ppl not the prophets.
.
best regards
above all watever happened try to be in the limits.dont say somthing bad to the prophets or holy books. all were meant for the betterment of humanity. its the freaky ppl not the prophets.
.
best regards
above all watever happened try to be in the limits.dont say somthing bad to the prophets or holy books. all were meant for the betterment of humanity. its the freaky ppl not the prophets.
.
best regards
above all watever happened try to be in the limits.dont say somthing bad to the prophets or holy books. all were meant for the betterment of humanity. its the freaky ppl not the prophets.
.
best regards
You will find that I have quoted authentic hadith of Sahaih Al Bukhari with a link to the arabic text which clearly narrates that The age of Prophet Muhammad's (PEBH) wife Ayesha was 6 years old when married and was 9 years old when the marriage was consummated, if you read it it even tells that her mom brought her from outside while she was playing, washed her face, took her into the tent and presented her to the Profi (PEBH)
I guess you need to refer to this and advise if you trust this is an authentic source or you believe Sahih Al Bukhary lack authenticity
"The best way to predict the future is to create it".
Adnan I am a religious fanatic.. and even I think people are right here.
As others have said already:
The girl must be in full agreement (not brainwashed either).. So the idea she will agree to such an old man is proposterous. More likely if she does decide to marry at such a young age it would be with someone closer to her age.
Second of all... Every muslim knows that Prophet M. SAW had a special case. And this is not applicable to all muslims. I.E. he did not take Aisha's permission. Whereas for the rest of the muslim women their permission is sought.
The theory being that the prophet was the best of men and what woman young or old wouldn't have been happy with him right????
Allahu Alim.. This is one of the things that pushes me away from Islam because even I find it hard to understand and justify. And with all the perfection of this religion.. this is one of the only things that just doesn't sit well with me.
But what really really irks me is when people issue fatwas and accept the molestation of young girls by old men. And bring it into islamic society. Their is nothing in Islam to warrant such behavior..
I will not discuss more but will say that you are not answering with a logic and there fore lost another bout,please accept. Now guessing anything that this might happen or that ........
About some Islamic history mentioned here , it is wrong. Only authentic hadith is accepted in Islam. hadith is nothing else but people continued to pass the info of life events of prophet Muhammad (PBUH) to future generations so only Hadith quoted from an authentic source is acceptable, and that is not so i see here.
Know Islamic history and its background before you talk about it, this is my advice to you all who want to debate about it. The age of Prophet Muhammad's (PEBH) wife is not quoted rightly by some ignorant person, what proof he has about that.
Any ways you cannot defy the nature. Islam is abiding by the same principles of nature.
Very few women are also "imported" to the West for prostitution....that's a trend here in the Middle East and elsewhere in Asia where human trafficking is much more rampent.
You live in a dreamworld Adnan,
Adnan I am afraid I can't agree with you on this one.
"But 99% Muslims cant think of sleeping with women without marriage. It is indirectly a complete abuse of a woman that is too unacceptable in society.Women's rights are violated when they are imported for prostitution purposes in West"
R u trying to say that 99% of Muslim men stay virgins till they get married? I don't think so.. Perhaps 60% do think like that but definitely not 99%.. If that is the case it would mean that I have come across all the men in the remaining 1% bcoz all of those were more than willing to sleep with women who are not their wives..
Adnan, check ANY women's health sites, I'm afraid you are wrong,
Teenage mothers are less likely to gain adequate weight during their pregancy, leading to low birthweight. Low birthweight is associated with several infant and childhood disorders and a higher rate of infant mortality. Low-birthweight babies are more likely to have organs that are not fully developed, which can result in complications, such as bleeding in the brain, respiratory distress syndrome, and intestinal problems. http://www.womenshealthchannel.com/teenpregnancy/index.shtml
The social stigma that once attended out-of-wedlock pregnancy may have diminished; however, the risks of serious health consequences remain for babies born to mothers still in their teens. Children of teenagers are more
likely to have low birth weights, and to suffer the associated health problems.2
Pregnant teens themselves are also at greater risk of health problems, including, for example, anemia, hypertension, renal disease, eclampsia and depressive disorders. http://www.statcan.ca/english/kits/preg/preg3.htm
Seriously, it's called google.
SN/Tara/Nigel/Adnam: World is changing, everything is changing. Yesterday i saw a program about bird flu virus, and they were investigating the weaker variations of the virus to create a vacine and it appears that even microscope beings are changing and evolutioning to stronger variations, as so, i do belive that even what's considered unchangeble will change and religion will no longer be used as a reason to excuse some criminal acts.
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
Although some people may appear to be condoning child abuse, actually,I think that that is not their true belief. They think they are faithfully defending the only true tradition that mankind has ever been privileged to hear and a way of life which declares itself as immovable, absolute and eternal as the ocean- as true today as it was 1000 years ago and will be in 50,000 years hence.
When one of its traditional practices might be declared to be invalid or wrong, then it shatters its overall authority .. wherever could it end up? Being forced to admit that homosexuals are humans too, or that stoning women is an unacceptable crime against people?
Too much change, too quickly!
I really started to enjoy this site. But if people are going to condone this type of behavior I need to get the hell off. This is too upsetting
no.no. if its ok for a religion to practise such goings on then its ok..............
Adnan are digging yourself into an extremely embarrassing hole.
A 12 year old is a child. if she gives birth at that age she will probably die because her body is not ready for it. What's more, it is a revolting idea when the partner is more than twice or three times her age.
And if a wicked Western woman wants to have casual sex with a man, it's an equal 50/50 thing. there are no strings because of the freedom which the pill/condoms/birth control gives.
But then you probably think birth control is evil too. Yet you absolutely endorse child abuse. I totally appreciate you are incapable of criticising the rock-solid edifice of tradition. It seems just too much to imagine that morality is not eternal and absolute.
But - OMG think about what you're saying for a minute. And by the way, you can't just say 'you have your opinion and keep it to yourself' - you ARE hurting someone - chidren - by legitimising their abuse!
aaahhhh, but in the name of religion...anything goes!
And that makes child molestation okay??? Sick
I have given the medical and other facts of who is an adult woman. If you cant figure out you are not willing to accept a fact.
If you find it disgusting then keep this in your mind. No body bothers you, to you be you way to us be ours.
But 99% Muslims cant think of sleeping with women without marriage. It is indirectly a complete abuse of a woman that is too unacceptable in society.Women's rights are violated when they are imported for prostitution purposes in West.
It leads to abortion and giving rise to more and more individuals to do not know their father's names.
I am sorry i have to explain the facts to answer you.
I can't believe you are defending a 40 something year old man to molest this young girl. Is something wrong with your head?
And to be honest I find it disgusting that anyone would have sex with a 9 year old too.. No matter if it was 100 years ago or 5000 years ago.
The deaths quoted due to child birth are evenly distributed among all the age group of women in every era during giving birth.
About bringing such a man (married to a certain adult woman) to Europe and predicting his terrible end, my reponse is that how about if someone says if you bring a person who sleeps with the woman without getting married and probablty have kids with her and then try finding more in the bars in a country at a place which is religious then what might be his end as well.
This person discussed here is much better than many such a persons i have described above. Why not you go after such men (men who live with women without marriage) in Europe and try to revive the women's rights in sense that she cannot be used by a man without having any legal status, such women have to be given a wife's status. Why prostitution is on rise and lagalised in Europe, why they import the girls from other countries for this purpose for their men.
Try to establish the woman's rights there in Europe first, i am sorry many women are being used there in evil sense.
Which is an authentic hadith specifying that Aysha was 6 years old when married and 9 when the marriage was consummated
I am sure you can find the same in English translations
"The best way to predict the future is to create it".
"No girl died in the olden days by getting married in the early age of maturity because of any reason."
Actually many many many girls died, many in child birth, others from complications from childbirth, and even more died in their late 30's and early 40's because of too many multiple births and the effects this had on their body (weakening of the immune system, osteoprosis, etc)
I highly suggest Adnan that you read up on mortality rates in the "olden day" before you make such comments.
Try bringing a 12y girl married to a 43 y guy to Europe and you'll see where he ends up
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
No girl died in the olden days by getting married in the early age of maturity because of any reason. It was thought that the people should get married as soon as they mature and it is still correct now in present world. Acutually now in this present time the age contraint of marriage is an inverntion of the modern times which is becasue of the various factors but it is not supported by the nature itself.
Dont know why people use a word abuse here, abuse is a crime but how can a marriage be graded a crime.
Adnam: If you would say such a thing to a medic here, you could have some probs, normally girls start to have sex at 15 or 16 but it's rare the one that gets pregnant at that age and even so, they will only have that baby till they are old enough to have another kid
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
Actually girls of 12 are not physically mature enough. Many people think that once a girl gets her period, BANG, she's ready for children, but this simply isn't true. It takes quite a few more years until her hips, breasts, etc have matured enough to bear children. If a girl gets pregnant so young (and in this case it will probably be multiple pregnancies in her teens) it's going to destroy her body.
The link is in Arabic.. I can't understand a word.. What does it say there?
You are correct that girls are perhaps maturing earlier physically. However, mentally, she is still a child. This is the crux of the matter.
Please think about your own daughter, or your sister at 12 having sex with a 40 someting man....
So..not good no, disgusting, want to throw???
Ok, then maybe u undestood something.
At 12 we are still children.period.
How could the world let this happen ..! We stand by and watch as innocent children are abused...!
Once there is a marriage between a man and so called an adult woman then there cannot be any objection reaised, it is a matter of free will between two man and adult woman. Girls are biologically ahead of men of the the same age.It is medically proven.
As mentioned in one of the posts, if her body behaves as an adult woman then she is an adult woman in a medical dictionary. No one can deny this fact medically.
Adnan: A 12 yr old girl ain't an adult woman.
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
Something that could be done would be to update the Shariah.
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
IT'S JUST LEGALISE PAEDOPHILIA.WHAT'S SAD IS THAT WE CAN'T DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT...!
Medo: Wanna bet that girl you refer lost her virg***ty with a guy who's maximum age was 20 and not 42? ;)
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
Paedohilia..no other adjective to it.
At 12 girls should be playing, going to school, dereaming with the blue prince, but not getting married with an old b...rd. Excuse me if i am rude, but B..ard is the only adjective apliccable to a 40 years old man that even thinks of having sex with a 12 years old girl.
Whatever the religion, I dont think God will forgive the ones that do not respect child and old people.
God forgive me for judging
It's just legalise Paedophilia.And to think that he is a man of religion.
Poor lil girl
finaly i feel this man is sooo happy cograulation i would like to have the same wealth and health then i will get married 12 or thirteen 13 years old girl because in uerope i know some ladies they are not Ver...
when they are only 14 one lady told me like that she is from Ueropean country live in Qatar she is now 18 years old she said her mother still thinking she is ver.. but she was doing sex when she was 14 so which better i think marrage is better in this case i would like to get married like this guy even i am married now from 20 years old lady when i become 40 i need againe one girl 13 to get married
Like someone pointed out, that would be on a time when people used to die at 40.
Ask a medic, that makes his statement based on science, if a girl with 9 years or even 12 has her body ready to have sex relations, why do you guys think that civil law refers 18 years as minimum age for marriage purposes ?
A 6 year girl just don't want to imagine it. ;)
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
Narain babu....yeah he probably will marry his own daughter 12 years from now.......perhaps thats what he wants eventually.
SOAB
Here is a link to confirm the age of Ayesha when she was marrid.
http://ramadan.islamweb.net/ver2/Fatwa/ShowFatwa.php?Option=FatwaId&lang=A&Id=73838
"The best way to predict the future is to create it".
Mohammad the profit of islam (pbuh) married Ayesha when she was 6 and consummated the marriage when she was 9 not 12 ..
"The best way to predict the future is to create it".
i might say, i agree with QUERTYNESS...well said!
"never allow somebody to be ur priority when u r just his/her option"
"In terms of religious language marrying a 12 years old is also not acceptable because for example in Islam for an individual to express any sort of will in any matter he or she has to be an adult"
How could you say that being a Muslim.. Don't you know that under Islamic shariah law, a woman becomes an adult the day she gets her first period....
Our Prophet (pbuh) married Ayesha when she was 9 years old but he did not consummate the marriage till she got her periods at 12 and only then she went to stay with him and the marriage was consummated.
I really don't know why I'm writing all this on this post. All I have to say that such people will have sex with their own daughters and sisters and still there should be something to justify. What has he done?
As a man you can have sex with a nine year old girl and justify it one way or the other. Islam needs ammendment or such sinners will keep thriving.
There should be no justification, it's a sex slavery or henious incest. I don't know how this person will reach if his own daughter is eaten up by someone elder than him.
In terms of religious language marrying a 12 years old is also not acceptable because for example in Islam for an individual to express any sort of will in any matter he or she has to be an adult. I think this also probably holds for jewish and christainity faiths.
Somethings have not been changed from the past to present. Those are the rules of modesty, moral values and etc etc. These acts will and were the same that people used to commit in the past. So there cannot be any need of revising any religious laws because those acts remain the same in nature even today.
you're right, nigel. My parents were "religious" because they were afraid of the reality. It is much harder and more challenging to understand how the universe "really" is, that it is constantly trying to wipe us out, than to believe in some gracious "God" and "paradise". But it doesn't seem to work for me. Fu*k the university that switched my brain on.
is the Bible Belt of the USA.
In certain corners of the world, religious people shout hard and loud that their holy book is absolutely right and cannot be renegotiated. If you suggest such a thing in public, it could lead to grave consequences for you - criminal or capital.
It seems to me that the power structure in those societies depends on everyone following a rigid set of social and political dogma. When religious people say "ah but we love tradition" what they really mean is : "We feel most comfortable in submitting ourselves to a system of living that we didn't create and are powerless to change, and it takes the unpredictability out our lives". It also guarantees the succession of power to the older and more experienced in society and makes very obedient, compliant servants out of the young.
Human beings love the protection and security of a black/white yes/no answer to every possible dilemma. Religion often acts as a protective place for the vulnerable in society; those who see it for what it is are 'evil heretics' who are arrested - or worse.
nigel, the "magic" of the Qur'an is that it contains everything that was, that is, and that will be. We are just too dumb to understand it! And the "wise" men of Islam are not willing to tell us the future, although it is written in their book. So, basically they are utmost unfair.
If religion is out of touch with our modern lives and sensibilities on this particular issue, a reasonable person must surely ask:
What other religious rules and prohibitions that are no longer relevant or right?
nigel, I have always been saying that the "holy" books have to be adjusted. They were written for "their" times and for the people of "these" times. And they probably made sense in "those" days. But, as Bob Dylan sings: "The times they are a-changing." Even civil laws are constantly developed and improved.
Exactly MagicDrago ... it is obviously NOT acceptable to our instincts and modern sensibilities, which have changed over centuries; but according to religious laws, it IS acceptable.
You can see therefore that religious laws are out of step with the reality. Yet getting some folks to admit this is almost impossible, despite the evidence.
Why is this so hard, so painful, so truly devastating to admit?
Why do we need long, convoluted and incoherent arguments to compel us all to believe that religion must ALWAYS be right and secular reasoning must ALWAYS be flawed?
"Any ways marrying a 12 year old girl to a man is soemthing totally unacceptable." Obviously it is not!
In Europe and many other countries the divorce may be so difficult that the couple if cannot continue to live together then start their own lives. The man finds his own partner and woman her own without getting a divorce because either the man or woman cannot afford a divorce and split their property and assets. Also many individuals are going after protitutes because they think marriage is too difficult thing to be tied to and that is why in some secular countries it is legal and in others the buiseness is booming.
In Islam divorce is not that easy as well. People suffer lot of financial set back and also they have to give the reason to the judge in the court.
Any ways marrying a 12 year old girl to a man is soemthing totally unacceptable.
I must agree with nigelreid and Adnan, and taking the risk of some folks insult me again i'll say it anyway, why is it legal to marry a 12 y old girl but if you wanna kiss a single girl, well over 20 y old, you can't do it either in public either in private (you are not allowed to be at the same house as a single non family oposite sex member), i would understand forbiding Public Display of Affection if it would be allowed to go to an house and display affection in private.
It's what we call to be caught with or without dog
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
same here mate been there done it..Know how it goes..it just what I hear her that it is more difficult here if they would really apply they laws..just a observation
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HE WHO DARES WINS
I didn't talk about the cost. It is much harder than in Islam because you have to have a reason. And the court does not accept what Sharia courts accept. I know, I went through a divorce.
MD you might be wrong..The idea is who benefits..Germany plus other european countries who really benefits from the divorce procedures the lawyers ofcource its a win win situation for themm..
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HE WHO DARES WINS
And I tell you, adnan, that it is much easier and cheaper in Islam to divorce than in Germany according to the law. So, who is "protecting" society?
Well what the word morality teaches in a religion is only is to actually prevent harm done to the people in the society. For example if secular law is not prohibiting the act of adultry then lot of homes will suffer and marriages will break, people will be harmed.T Adultry (or casual relationship)is by defination is a relahionship out side marraige and cannot be graded as a marriage what so ever may be becasue in marriage you are setting up the boundaries.
All other issues are one's personal and there is a rule defined to exercise it. No one in the society marries and divorce again and again as one cannot afford it. There may be very few exceptions in this regard but still this is not an act appreciated by others.
One flaw with religion is that society expects everyone to follow a 'moral code' inherited from the ancients, in which the act of marriage is the only acceptable way to have sex. So, you can marry multiple times, get multiple divorces, marry underage, you can even beat your wife, just so long as you use the magic word MARRIAGE then you're fine and no-one is allowed to criticise you. But if you have a casual ('illicit') relationship, in some parts of the world you are to be deemed a criminal and should be locked up even though you have not hurt anyone at all.
This kind of situation shows clearly that it is necessary to renegotiate traditional ideas of morality to suit existing problems. Secular societies which have done this usually agree on one essential thing: what human laws must do is to prevent HARM from being done, not whether it is in accordance with some ancient system of 'morality' that everybody happens to accept because they are forbidden to negotiate it or change it - those who try to receive all kinds of insults and threats - even up to death threats.
But what if a society said, look it's none of our business who you have consensual sex with, as such, but what we are VERY concerned about is HARM being caused to others. So, we will make it illegal for sexual acts with those under a certain age to take place because the welfare of children under a certain age is damaged by sexual interference by older adults.
Taking 'harm' as the guiding force for lawmaking in the modern world, and setting aside 'traditional morality', will actually free us up to A) respect individual choices and preferences regardless of what we do or don't believe; B) address modern scenarios and problems; C) improve the essentially flawed nature of traditional moral codes which do not always prevent HARM from being done (in fact, they cause far more harm than they do good, in my view.)
Yes an underaged marriage should not be allowed because a child cannot express his will untill he or she is an adult and come of age. In this sense it is not moral for that man to marry a 12 year old girl.
In religious sense marriage is the legal form of contract or agreement between man and woman in which both of them agree in front of the society concerned. So it is something annouced in legal terms and not hidden. No one can object on that becasue both agree and one way or the other it is announced that they can now have the legal relationship from that point on.
So there cannot be comparison of getting married more thab once and having a casual relationships without any commitment , they are very different. In summary marriage is very different to casual relashionship even if man married more once as mentioned.Even if his act may not be perfect but no one can say that any such has broken the rules of morality.
I'm sure that when the Shariah gets updated, will be harder to use religion as excuse to such acts
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
only a twisted perverted idiot would marry a girl so young.
the point is that "marriage" in the religious sense is essentially no different to a casual relationship
a man can marry numerous wives, consummate the marriage, then divorce his wives and find new ones. All within the legal framework or religion. He might even be worthy of applause if he does so.
But two people have casual sex, break up and move on, and it is a "decadent, evil, illicit, wicked practice" which degrades society.
There is a mass delusion creeping across the face of this planet, and I don't know where it will end.
And another thing, I am heartily sick of all the triumphalist pro-religious threads on this website.
this is EXACTLY why we need human / secular laws which are NOT based on religion.
Some rules of religion contradict morality, common sense or even modern taste, and therefore we need to put it aside and accept that it is not relevant in all cases. This man is hiding behind religious rules to do something that is disgusting and revolting. A 40 year old in bed with a 12 year old. Gees, it makes me sick.
And as for allowing him to marry two more girls, is even further example of how religion is out of date and inappropriate as a source of law for our modern times.
There should be a law prohibiting under aged marriages.
On the other hand marriage is every one's own personal matter.
hmmmm, a 12 y old girl proposed him to marry and he's very wealthy right? Guess what he meant was that the girl's family has no money and he offered them some, all she needed to do would be marrying him and say that she's the one in love.
Seams perfectly clear to me. ;)
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Kareena74: Lots of pregnant teens, with 12 y? Dunno where you live but i can assure you that some teens get pregnant but mostly at 16 and the father isn't a 47 y old guy. Legal age at Portugal is 18.
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
mmmm thats called bending the rules.....
Strange how one man´s peodphile is another man´s religeous rights
just eat another pie
sorry I got sidetracked- somoen made a post further up about teen pregnancy stats, and it sort of went off on a tangent about how it was better for girls to be married off young to avoid those things.
I think you're forgetting a third option there american muslim- NOT getting pregnant! It's not a choice between having a bastard (what IS the big deal anyway? Lots of women ahve kids without having a husband.......) or getting married. At 14, I think it's too young for either. And girls shoudl be educated to protect themselves- and that doesn't mean being restricted to simply abstinence education. all that leads to is A LOT more teen pregnancy than there needs to be! I think if the USA were a little more free and easy with the handing out of the condoms their teen pregnancy rates would be lower....
let's allow our girls to be full, functioning people, giving them the education and support to make their own choices!
well my daughter is 14 and yes I would rather see her married than be one of these girls just letting herself be used. You can not say that girls do not need men in their life. Now I am not saying that this 40 year old man was the best choice but I rather see that than see her having a b-----d child with some little boy that is not even able to take care of himself. I wish that there was a younger choice for her but if she wanted this it is alright. My thing is did she really want this or did her father push this on her
and I'm sorry, getting married will NOT make them any safer, or help them take care of THEMSELVES (I reject the notion women need a husband or father to take care of her) than teens who don't.
and if you're so worried about teen pregnancy, SURELY marrying them off to horny old men who's whole point is to get them pregnant and breed them like underage cattle sort of defeats the purpose, right?
Consent: Legally, at least in India, and logically,to me, sex with a minor is RAPE. Period.Question of consent doesnot arise in case of minors.
Abt quoting US statistics of teenage pregnancy: When did US become a role model?Whether its happening in US or not, its jus plain wrong according to their own values and legal system and is seen as a disturbing trend.
Also How does the fact that it happens in US by anymeans justify underage marriage?
There are much better things to be done in the teens than marriage. Education for instance. It is the right of every individual to be allowed to try n grow to what they dream to be. Not what their parents, clergy or relegion wants em to be.
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“Live life so completely that when death comes to you like a thief in the night, there will be nothing left for him to steal.”
you know what, reforming Sharia law would probably actually HELP Islam, at least insofar as the perception by the non-islamic world goes. It's using relgiion as justifications for crimes like this that give Islam a bad name.
That is why, Sharia laws must be reviewed. This does not mean harm to Islam, its just the natural reform. Omer Ibn Khattab did reforms after a few years of Prophet's passing away. Please Wake Up.
Existence is a heavy burden, only high spirited ones can bear it.
stupidity. 12 years old girl whether she is grown up or not her mind is still a childish. and that too a 40 year old man she agreed to marry means her parents might have got bundle of currency. at the age of 12 what she can decide and what she knew about marriage. it is absolutely stupdity in this new generation. i think pleting stone is enough punishment. public of his country should come forward and throw stone.
OK just because a girl CAN produce a child without dying DOESN'T mean she should. i agree completely with the people who said she is not mentally or emoitoanlly ready at that age!
Also, at that young age, NO girl can consent to sex. i'M SORRY, they are CHILDREN and any sexual relations, ESPECIALLY with someone in a position of authority over them (and that means adults) is RAPE. pure and simple. so basically what people are arguing here is religious and legally sanctioned rape, and that is shamefull.
as for all the teen pregnancy in the west- those girls are older. they consented for the most part, they made mistakes, but THEY were in control of their bodies. In the case of child brides, they lose that control, it's taken away from them, and that is horrible. We've grown as a society where women can be in cahrge of their bodies and their lives, or we should have. why do we place such a high premium on being 'taken care of'? It's my opinon that regardless of if a 16 year old girl has a baby out of wedlock or in, she's still wasted her life in most cases. the child may not be a bastard (what does that matter anyway?) but the mother has still thrown away her own life and opportunities, regardless if she's shackled herself to a husband.
also, Iknow many women who are BETTER OFF having children without being married- sometimes men aren't ready to be fathers, but that doesn't mean a woman can't be a mother. but that's an entirely different topic :)
this is absolutely disguisting...
ya.. now a days they r like that.. just kids.. even boys..
before .. way back in time.. they used to go to war at that age.. they used to lead armies.. human beings r growing backward..
well-said......whether their bodies are fully grown or not,their minds are still childish at 12 and 13....IMHO
Keep smiling!
Saggi!
the age where the girl turn into a woman varies from place to place, from country to country & from race to race..
.
women grow faster in hot places that cold places, faster in low pressure areas than high pressure areas, & they grow faster if they were conceived at a young age..
.
in Saudi Arabia for EXAMPLE.. only EXAMPLE.. just sayin it.. there are 12 or 13 years old girls who r fully developed & can get pregnant & have children & rase them in FULL health without any trouble..
.
but see in Russia for EXAMPLE.. girls turn into women at around 16 & 17 years old.. ..
..
what i just said is Scientificly Proved.. u can check it out..
..
i ain't defendin anyone.. just telling the truth..
In India legal age for marriage is 18 for girls and 21 for boys.
Kareena, logicsays..
Would you marry your 12 yr old daughter to a 40 yr old man?
PM, Alexa (I presume muslims), etc
For God's sake would you say What Prophet himself did was wrong?
Don't burn your heads...
lets share the legal age for marriage at differnt countries and see how they compare to other countries...
"The best way to predict the future is to create it".
It's not important whether I approve it or not. But I am still curious about the "cut off age" for adult in other countries / societies. Hmm I hope people get my point
"The best way to predict the future is to create it".
so even the west who you are referring to are seeing those numbers among girls who may be 15 or above ..
I still they condem it ...
"The best way to predict the future is to create it".
According to the Family Research Council, studies in the US indicate that age discrepancy between the teenage girls and the men who impregnate them is an important contributing factor. Teenage girls in relationships with older boys, and in particular with adult men, are more likely to become pregnant than teenage girls in relationships with boys their own age. They are also more likely to carry the baby to term rather than have an abortion. A review of California's 1990 vital statistics found that men older than high school age fathered 77 percent of all births to high school-aged girls (ages 16-18), and 51 percent of births to junior high school-aged girls (15 and younger). Men over age 25 fathered twice as many children of teenage mothers than boys under age 18, and men over age 20 fathered five times as many children of junior high school-aged girls as did junior high school-aged boys. A 1992 Washington state study of 535 adolescent mothers found that 62 percent of the mothers had a history of being raped or sexual molested by men whose ages averaged 27 years. This study found that, compared with nonabused mothers, abused adolescent mothers initiated sex earlier, had sex with much older partners, and engaged in riskier, more frequent, and promiscuous sex. Studies by the Population Reference Bureau and the National Center for Health Statistics found that about two-thirds of children born to teenage girls in the United States are fathered by adult men age 20 or older.[28]
these statistics just prove how less influence the family has on the children.....coz if it was legal then,as logicsays said,it would be legalised all over the world.
Keep smiling!
Saggi!
The teenage birth rate in the United States is the highest in the developed world, and the teenage abortion rate is also high.[3] The U.S. teenage pregnancy rate was at a high in the 1950s and has decreased since then, although there has been an increase in births out of wedlock.[11] The teenage pregnancy rate decreased significantly in the 1990s; this decline manifested across all racial groups, although teenagers of African-American and Hispanic descent retain a higher rate, in comparison to that of European-Americans and Asian-Americans. The Guttmacher Institute attributed about 25% of the decline to abstinence and 75% to the effective use of contraceptives.[12] [13] However, as of 2006 the teenage birth rate began to rise once again for the first time in fourteen years.[14] This could imply that teen pregnancy rates are also on the rise, however the rise could also be due to other sources: a possible decrease in the number of abortions or a decrease in the number of miscarraiges, to name a few. The Canadian teenage birth has also trended towards a steady decline for both younger (15-17) and older (18-19) teens in the period between 1992-2002.[15]
them to get married at this age wouldn't they?
"The best way to predict the future is to create it".
why don't people have the common sense to understand that a female body is not yet prepared to bear a child at such a young age!hell,even her reproductive organs aren't fully developed,for God's sake!marrying her off and expecting her to bear a child at that age is equivalent to killing the girl!both physically and emotionally.....it's crazy!
Keep smiling!
Saggi!
ticket purposes does not mean they can get married, does it?
Do I understand from your post that you approve marriage of a 9 year old girl?
"The best way to predict the future is to create it".
Teen pregnancy is so common in western countries.. So many unwed mothers out there on the streets.. Then why do people lambast Muslims when they are doing something absolutely halal... Don't you think it is better to be married and have a legimate child at 13 instead of being an unwed mother giving birth to a B----d?
guess the age to be considered an adult changes from country to country.....LOL!how idiotic!
Keep smiling!
Saggi!
in one of hotels in Swiss:
"Children age 11 and under stay free in the room with parents and in existing bedding. Children over this age will be considered an adult" LOL!!!
What age is considered as adult in western society? I heard in Netherland it is 16, isn't it? What about other countries? Does it change over time? Just curious...
as in b**ls cut off...
should be castrated... honestly.
Agree with Qwertyness 100%. You married off kids at 12 1600 years ago cause the averge person died at 35/40. Average age of death now is 70's or 80's. No need to marry off so young.
doesn't make it right today!
If it's wrong, it's wrong, no matter how many times you or anyone else commits the crime. We are not animals or are some of us?
Imagine if you were married off as a kid and all your friends laughed at you because you were paedophiled by a dirty old man with bad breath, body odor and excesive body hair. How do you think you'd feel? Full of self esteem?
doesn't make it right today!
If it's wrong, it's wrong, no matter how many times you or anyone else commits the crime. We are not animals or are some of us?
Imagine if you were married off as a kid and all your friends laughed at you because you were paedophiled by a dirty old man with bad breath, body odor and excesive body hair. How do you think you'd feel? Full of self esteem?
yup. I do not care what stripe you are, i have the same problems with muslims, mormons, catholics WHATEVER:
it's a simple rule. Don't. Have sex. With CHILDREN.
What i hate the most, How they manipulate Religion either Christian or Islamic to cover-up their evilness.
“Be fearful when others are greedy, and be greedy when others are fearful,”
ok that is all well and good. But when was Mohammed around? oh yeah HUNDREDS OF YEARS AGO. Plus he was a freaking prophet which means the rules are a little different for him, yah?
WHat i'm saying here is we REALLY, as a human society, should have gotten past marrying off children by now. We know the harm it does to them, we value human life and experience, especially female identity, now and understand girls are more than just baby making factories to be sold in marriage by their fathers and exploited by horny old men.....
right?
'experimenting'?????ROFL......
Keep smiling!
Saggi!
I just now that legally it is allowed in Islam according to the Shariha law.. Our prophet Mohammed (peace be upon him) married Ayesha when he was in his fifties and she was just 9 BUT she did not come to stay with him till she reached puberty at the age of 12 or something..
In Islam, muslim men are told to marry of their daughters as soon as they reach puberty so that they don't go around experimenting..
Arien, I think they should first cut some other "things" as well.
This is what happens when good men do nothing.
--------------------- N.O.W --------------------------
frankly, I don't care what Shariaa law or Islam says: this is JUST WRONG. This man, and anyone who defends him, is using their own interpretations of their religion to commit A CRIME.
It is not alright for that little girl to lose her childhood because, well hey, muslims in the past did it it must be alright. Is she going to get to finish school? Have a career? Have friends? Experience life and love and all the other things that come with being allowed to be a child and grow up? No, instead she will be repeatedly raped by a man old enough to be her father, and spend her life pregnant.
i'm sorry, but i just can't think of ANY God who'd be ok with that.
to hide behind.
He's also a dirty old man. Probably ugly and desparate so he has to pick on children and abuse his power over them.
He probably also has bad breath and body odour as no woman with a free choice will waste time with him.
"The best way to predict the future is to create it".
No matter what veil he hides behind
There is nothing wrong with such a marriage among muslims but what worries is that the girl will be still young when her husband grows older or dies. This situation was handled in early islamic era when there were no problems for women getting married next. Now muslims have preferential Islam that makes remarriage very hard. As there is no unanimity in the interpretation of the Islamic law these incidents take place as they enjoy equal support and prtection to criticism. There apparently is no way for the wise people than to burn their heads!
paedophile...whatelse...
in the name of religion
CRAP ....... :(
he's crazy.....
Keep smiling!
Saggi!
perv... tosser....
"Everything in this book may be wrong." Illusions: The Adventures of The Reluctant Messiah by Richard Bach
Cut his Veins .. You know which ones i meant.
______________________________________________
Live,
Let Live,
& Help Live..
according to Shariaa Law so I think he believes he is not in breach of any law ....
"The best way to predict the future is to create it".
Ok first- where on earth in the states are you living that 12 year old girls with babies is so common you could call it the norm??? i just moved here and i have to tell you, in Canada at least, a pregnant 12 year old would raise MORE than a few eyebrows!
Also, I don't buy any of that religious tripe- it's a justification for a crime that will cause long term damages to the CHILD involved. I don't care if she 'agreed'- she's a child. she cannot agree or give consent, she can't POSSIBLY understand the full ramifications of what she's doing.
Furthermore, do you really think she could make a decision or her own? NO. there would be pressures from all sorts of authority figures that would remove any chance of her making a logical and rational decision.
Regardless of the laws or customs of that country or community, the International rights of the child and human decency do apply, and this is just wrong.
I do not know what to think. I live in the US and I see 12 year-old girls having babies all the time it is kind of the norm here and the their families are letting this happen. So what I am thinking is that if and only if the girl says that she is ready to be married do you allow it to happen. The man that married this girl was not thinking too much for the welfare of this girl. The age is too different. I think that the girls family should of thought more about that. He will be dead or very old while she is so very young. I think part of the loving process is growing old together and she will not have that.
Interfering with them is exactly what he is doing. Poor girls. Another word is PAEDOPHILIA.
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A case of different religions, different values.
In the eyes of Muslims, interpretation of the Koran is obviously open to debate, and this is probably perfectly right for some, including the girls family from all accounts.
For the rest of the World, same old, same old!!!!!
As far as I am concerned, religion apart, he's a dirty old Paedophile !!
well......to me,its no news.I av seen dis happened before
"If she hasn't menstruated, I won't have sexual intercourse with her," said Puji.-
How magnanimous of him!!
Paedophile is the word, I guess.
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“Live life so completely that when death comes to you like a thief in the night, there will be nothing left for him to steal.”
but i guess thats common already...
one young soul destroyed again.
"dgoodrebel will always be the rebellious good one"
This guy is cool. All he does is using the 'loop holes' that laws provide.
never mind.
Poverty is not for the sake of hardship. No, it is there because nothing exists but God. Poverty unlocks the door -- what a blessed key!
- Jalaluddin al-Rumi