CNAQ does not respect the Canadian charter of rights and freedoms
Much has been said about the abuse taking place at CNAQ. One issue that has not been reported is the lack of respect for basic rights as guaranteed in the Canadian charter of rights and freedoms. Specifically I refer to article 7:
"Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of the person and the right not to be deprived thereof except in accordance with the principles of fundamental justice."
How is CNAQ abusing this right? By not negotiating multiple exit permits for its employees - a facility that is readily available in the state of Qatar.
Now, I know there are people out there who will respond with comments such as
"We are in Qatar - we have to adjust to local circumstances"
and:
"IF you can't take it go home" (This is a classic from people who cannot cut it in the real world and will sacrifice basic rights here because they are employed in a position beyond their competency.)
However, we are employed by a C.A.N.A.D.I.A.N company and for most of us, we pay taxes to Canada. It is reasonable to expect that our Canadian employer will honor the rights enshrined in the Canadian charter of rights and freedoms. Ironically, many local Qatari organizations provide multiple exit permits for their employees because they know most westerners would not work here if this basic freedom was curtailed.
I have no problem whatsoever with the rules of residency as determined by the state of Qatar. I do have an issue every time I apply for an exit permit from CNAQ to leave Qatar. The process developed by CNAQ is intrusive, demeaning, and actually gathers more information than is necessary to issue an exit permit. (It is surreptitiously also used as a means to enforce per-diem allowance policy) For example, a destination is asked for when none is required by the State of Qatar (they only want to know that we are authorized to leave). In addition, the process requires a four day lead time making it impossible, for example, to wake up one Friday and on-the-spur-of-the-moment take a shopping trip to Dubai. Think about it: imagine working for CNA in St. John's and not being able to travel to the US for the weekend because your manager has not authorized your (out of work time) trip. Unthinkable? you betcha!
I wonder how many of our esteemed "executives" have multiple exit permits? I'll bet they all do - and that is probably why they will not negotiate on our behalf.
So what to do! Well, the same Canadian charter of rights and freedoms has a remedy for citizens whose rights have been compromised:
"Anyone whose rights or freedoms, as guaranteed by this Charter, have been infringed or denied may apply to a court of competent jurisdiction to obtain such remedy as the court considers appropriate and just in the circumstances." - article 24
Alternatively, we could all apply for exit permits every week until the ineffective management of this institution gets the message that as tax paying Canadians, we deserve to have our charter rights preserved.
I wonder how many other charter rights are being abused?
The latest from our HR manager:
From CNAQ HR:
"Although the college itself does not purchase of air tickets [sic] which are nonrefundable/non-rebookable [e.g. Super Value fares], an individual can buy one which has these kind of restrictions. Be aware that there is always a risk when you buy these types of tickets which could leave you 'out of pocket' for the entire purchase price of that ticket.
With this type of ticket, if you are unable to make your flight for any number of reasons including personal or complications arising from exit permit processing, and cannot give at least one day notice prior to departure you may be considered a 'no show'. This ticket is then void and nothing can be done to retrieve any credit for it. The college will not be responsible in such cases and you therefore could suffere a financial set back."
I'm sorry, but this would not fly in a Canadian court of law. The college IS responsible for losses because multiple exit permits are readily available in the state of Qatar, but the college refuses to provide these to its employees.
The solution is simple: we (employees at CNAQ) apply for exit permits every week so that we are always authorized to leave Qatar. In fact - we could apply for these on a daily basis as I beleieve it is possible to hold multiple instances of single exit permits (perhaps someone can confirm this). It would take just ONE refusal/non processing of a permit to open a law suit against CNAQ. I suggest the college starts to recruit additional admin staff now to handle the increase in exit permit applications. Or a lawyer well versed in charter of rights and freedoms issues.
Thanks Ragnarock Raider,
CNA is aware of many problems with this institution. This one however, has National significance.
Like I said i'm no lawyer, but what you are saying makes sense (to me at least)....I again humbly advise you to take it up with CNA Headquarters (in Canada)...and refer to your employment contracts...I really hope something can be done....best of luck!
Stay safe.
Perfection does not exist. The question therefore, is: what level of imperfection are we willing to settle for?
I have no problems with the qatar side of the employment equation, and thus no need to resort to the legal system here. This is purely a Canadian legal matter and as a tax paying citizen, I think I have a case to be addressed by the relevant legal authority in Canada. CNAQ cannot have it both ways: extract tax on behalf of CRA and then claim : "Oh, gee, we are in Qatar now - sorry your charter rights do not apply" They do apply. Every time tax is deducted from my salary.
Ragnarock Raider,
Residency as defined in this post refers to residency for tax purposes, not immigration purposes. All employees of CNAQ have valid Qatar residence permits. Our "benevolent" Canadian employer has decided that they will act as surrugate tax agents and collect Canadian Federal and provincial taxes on behalf of the Canadian Government - unless an employee can demonstrate (by way of application to CRA) that they satisfy the legislation to be "granted" non-resident status for tax purposes.
I know, it sounds bizarre - but this is what our gutless employer has done for us!
So - we remaim residents of Canada for tax purposes but get none of the benefits of living in Canada. Don't you think in these circumstances, we deserve to be treated like any other Canadian - especially when as you say, there is no cpnflict with Qatari law?
Some situations are delicate, it would be very difficult to sue any employer here in Qatar and there is always a Qatari partner behind the other half.
This does not stop you for trying for rights, however, if you are a resident of this country you under the Qatari Government.
Still I think it would be better to take this up with the parent company before even thinking of any other options.
Then again this is the first time I hear of Residents of Canada living in Qatar (usually, if you spend over 182 days outside of Canada in one year your status automatically becomes that of a non resident).
But you know that at least Knox and I will be watching with great interest....keep us posted please Abused.
Stay safe all.
Perfection does not exist. The question therefore, is: what level of imperfection are we willing to settle for?
hope someone sues and others all follow suit
Strange no one has done it yet. dont you think so
Good Luck
Or maybe where you are from someplace where you do not have the intricacies of residency status....in Canada, among the ranks of citizens, we have residents and non residents....I myself am a NON-resident...which means I am fully subject to the laws of the state I am a resident of....which means Qatar in this case!
As for Abused's status, he is a Resident....which by the way I did not know you COULD be while living in the gulf....I mean do you have no residency permit in Qatar? or do you have 2 residencies? I didn't think Canadian law allowed that!
IF you do not have the Qatari Residency permit....why would you need permission to leave....can't youjust come and go as you please?
IF you have both then I don't know what your legal recourse is i'm affarid.
Just to summarize my opinion (and remember its just that....an opinion)...your CANADIAN employer's behaviour (IF its for the reasons you described) is outrageous and unacceptable to a Canadian citizen....we generally do not stand for this sort of thing...whatever you decide to do to resolve this, I wish you good luck.
Stay safe all.
Perfection does not exist. The question therefore, is: what level of imperfection are we willing to settle for?
With the perception that Canadian laws apply to you in Qatar, I hope you do not get into trouble.
Anyways I cannot change your belief so I might stop
But for a change do ask the disgruntled ex-employees of CNA-Q to sue CNA in Canada and see what happens. If the outcome is good than I will do the same
If for a minute I take your beliefs and ideas than all the multinational companies including mine would have changed their rules and regulations or they would all have been sued for multimillion dollar law suits.
I guess some facts are harder to be believed
If the company derails your freedoms (includes the right to travel on your own time) when the LAWS allows a multiple exit permit, then yes the company can be sued....escpacially for a frivolous reason like someone just padding their pocket...at least that's how I interpret it....WITH the caveat that I am not a lawyer and May well be mistaken!
If you are paid in Canadian dollars, and pay your taxes... your status remains as that of a RESIDENT of Canada (whereas for instance, in my personal case, my status is that of NON RESIDENT) then Canadian law applies to you....at least that is my understanding of it.
I simply support the suing on a theoretical basis....wether they can win or not, I really have no idea.
Stay safe all
Perfection does not exist. The question therefore, is: what level of imperfection are we willing to settle for?
Does the charter say anything about exit permits? sponsorships, NOCs,
etc etc
How can you sue the employer for NOC? he will say it is upon his discretion whether he wants to give you the NOC or not
How can you ask him for multiple exit permits? He will say that as per the laws it is his right whether he gives you single exit permit or multiple. Whatever CNA-Q is doing is within the laws. You can only sue if he breaks those laws
Do the canadian laws apply here in Qatar?
Do the laws here apply in Canada?
Personally even if you take CNA to court, the chances that you will win are pretty slim. They can always say that they are going as per the laws. you go to court when a law has been broken.
Remind me I will go to United States and sue my company for not giving me multiple exit permits.
well you obviously live on a differenty planet then I do...
First there is a thing called "common sense", that by western standards makes the dicission relatively
easy which system one should follow...
Its just interesting that the qatari air and sun brainwash peoples brains so easily.
A company I work with gives their employees the freedom to choose, except they have to pay the 400 QR
for the muliple exit visa by them self. That I find is a fair "trade-off" and the explanation for it is equaly simple.
Why should employees that leave the country once or twice a year pay for the ones the travel every other weekend. At the end each exit permit costs a fee and the over all costs have to be taken of by the company, thus influence salaries.
I am not a legal expert but logically, it would shock me to know that a CANADIAN company can work outside of the charter....even IF its located in a country that has a different system....especially if the laws CAN accomodate the Candian charter....it would just be outrageous for the company to violate it....especially for a reason like someone protecting their tax free salary.
Stay safe all.
Perfection does not exist. The question therefore, is: what level of imperfection are we willing to settle for?
There is no law saying that you MUST give the employee multiple exit permits or is there any such thing
So whatever the CNA-Q is doing is within the laws of Qatar. So why complain.
If they are doing everything within the laws and those laws are making the life difficult then should we blame CNA-Q or someone else
if a=b and b=c than a=c
knoxcollege I find your view at best naive...
There is no law saing you have to make others lives diffucult, its the pure choice of the sponsor/employer.
I agree that there is a system and that a Qatari that has lived and grown up in the system is most likely
to use it with all its facettes.
But a western manager of a institutio/company has more or less all the strings in his own hands... depending on how things are setup.
Any employer can give you a multiple exit visa in a blink of an eye, if he wants too...
A change of sponsorship can be done in less then 15min...
A lot of westeners I have dealt with and seen use the darker parts ot the system to their full advantage.
These are your words - let you be the first one to stand up to the system, it is not enough just to criticise - better still is to offer an optimal solutions to suit both sides.
abused101
Although I fully understand your plight. perhaps on your next vacation take this up with the mother company and see what happens.
"I believe we have a strong case for a class action suite against CNA that will make national headlines."
If you are thinking about taking this up here in Doha I would advise you to get the highest legal aid available.
Thanks all for your views.
I appreciate that in many instances, organizations will expedite the timely issue of exit permits. If I were working for a Qatar organization I would want to make sure that exit permits are readily available.
As for the existence of the exit permit system, that is a matter hotly debated by members of the Qatar government itself and wholely outside of my control.
However I work for a CANADIAN employer. My salary is paid in Canadian dollars in Canada, and I pay tax like any other Canadian. I think employees are entitled to be treated (where possible) like any other citizen resident in Canada. Now, the state of Qatar allows employers to apply for multiple exit permits for employees. The problem is that the local Qatari sponsor will not issue these permits. This is mainly because we have a spineless no gonads president who "begs" rather than "negotiates" with our Qatari sponsor (see posts by wizmotr for more details). Moreover, it is not the Qatari sponsor that ultimately approves our exits from the country: rather one spineless HR manager (himself a non resident) who is content to sacrifice our charter rights for his non taxable salary. Believe me, many of us have approached CNAQ with this issue and they have refused to negotiate on our behalf. Witness the result: CNAQ makes headlines with CBC Newfoundland.
I believe we have a strong case for a class action suit against CNA that will make national headlines.
but IF what you are saying is true...and it is simply the matter of a person curtailing other people's rights just for the sake of their non taxable salary....then you definetly SHOULD sue!
Stay safe all.
Perfection does not exist. The question therefore, is: what level of imperfection are we willing to settle for?
lets not blame CNA-Q as they are just following the system and procedures. Lets blame the system. The system of slavery and the system that devours the human rights. I have yet to see someone stand up to the system.
Its an irony that we human beings make the system, implement it and one day that some system enslaves us. Should the the human beings rights be more powerful than the system or should the system be able to over ride the "Human Beings"
And lets not forget that all these institutions are here in Qatar to educate, teach and enlighten the Qataris. These institutions are definitely not here to make money. We should all put forth these institutions as an example and should remember that the sole purpose of education is not to make money.
I know some people who's parents have died back in Canada while they were in Qatar, and the College bent over backwards to get them the exit permit and get them on the next flight home.
"You don't have to like me for who I am but we'll see what you're made of by what you make of me." Ani Difranco
I work for the Government too, and we still have to apply through the visa department to get the exit permit, there is really no bother to get it, we get it within one day. All the exit permits I have seen require to have the destination remarked it's a part of the procedure.
Fair enough you have to plan your weekend in advance, but this is ok as it may be necessary to book a flight out anyway before.
After having live in Europe and being able to get up on the weekend and travel to France, Italy, Switzerland, or wherever at the drop of a hat I still managed to get out of Doha on an emergnecy very quickly. It is just part of the red tape here.
I personaly have never thought it to be an infringement on my freedom as I have never had an exit permit refused and no one has ever asked me to give up my passport either.
"Anyone whose rights or freedoms, as guaranteed by this Charter, have been infringed or denied may apply to a court of competent jurisdiction to obtain such remedy as the court considers appropriate and just in the circumstances." - article 24"
I wonder if this applies here in Qatar.
I would suggest talking to your superiors about this matter as you seem to feel very strongly about it.
Hi,
I work for another Canadian company and it is sort of funny how they loose their western conciousness when they come to Qatar.
In our company, people undergo frequently the hassle and battle of sponsorship releases, exit visas etc...
Have you ever contacted the Canadian embassy about these ?
For me foreign citzens that behave like these out side of their country should be black listed, or even sued
in their home countries for violation of human rights (according to the right at their place of origin).
Plankton
From the ministry of the Interior:
"The e-service can be used to issue exit permits for single or multiple trips (fees are QR500 per annum for multiple exit permits) or permanent leave. Interested agencies can subscribe to this e-service by obtaining the Exit Permit Declaration from ictQATAR’s Government Information Management Office on ‘C’-Ring road near the Cinema traffic lights or by calling 4657802 for further information."
http://www.egovnews.org/?p=1707
Abused, although I'm not 100% sure, but I think you will find that multiple entry/exit permits, which are issued by the MOI, can only be applied for by those members of a company/institution who are deemed to be corporately responsible for that organisation, ie in the case of a company this would be those individuals named on the corporate registration docs.
It is not just as simple as the company agreeing to do it.
"only mad dogs and englishmen go out in the midday sun"
Abused....I agree with what you posted...especially since this is not against the law and is actually allowed in Qatar....is there no one at CNAQ headquarters (back in Canada) you can take this up with?
Good luck to you.
Stay safe all.
Perfection does not exist. The question therefore, is: what level of imperfection are we willing to settle for?
My view... if u are paying Canadian taxes then you should be cut a little more slack than the rest of us who don't pay taxes.
The exit permit thing... whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
yes bit of a nutty nightmare esp if there is a family emergency.
I have heard many a story of missed holidays etc with no compensation because of this.