Divorce bid for girl, 8, is rejected
RIYADH: A Saudi court has rejected a plea to divorce an eight-year-old girl married off by her father to a man who is 58, saying the case should wait until the girl reaches puberty, a lawyer involved said.
“The judge has dismissed the plea (filed by the mother) because she does not have the right to file such a case, and ordered that the plea should be filed by the girl herself when she reaches puberty,” lawyer Abdullah Jtili said in a telephone interview after Saturday’s court decision.
The divorce plea was filed in August by the girl’s divorced mother with a court at Unayzah, 220km north of Riyadh, just after the marriage contract was signed by the father and the groom.
“She doesn’t know yet that she has been married,” Jtili said then of the girl who was about to begin her fourth year at primary school.
Relatives who did not wish to be named said the marriage had not yet been consummated, and that the girl continued to live with her mother. They said that the father had set a verbal condition by which the marriage is not consummated for another 10 years, when the girl turns 18.
The father had agreed to marry off his daughter for an advance dowry of 30,000 riyals ($8,000), as he was apparently facing financial problems, they said.
The father was in court and he remained adamant in favour of the marriage, they added.
Lawyer Jtili said he was going to appeal the verdict at the court of cassation, the supreme court. - AFP
Source: http://www.gulf-times.com
http://www.gulfnews.com/news/gulf/saudi_arabia/10272303.html
that's why i really wonder why so many intelligent person tried so much to become lawyers...
and some of them tries the best they could to win cases in courts in defense even of hell-bent criminals...
or is it, at the end of the day, part of the job only?
... nothing personal??
duh, are'nt they disgusting??
but mind you, these disgusting people may sooner or later
became your lawmakers as well...
tsk tsk tsk, thats pretty more disgusting eh?!
and more!! what can we do about them leading us later on??
... sigh! :(
thats why I posted that "Government should step up and protect such incidents by fixing the minimum age of marriages for boys and girls".
Laws should be made to protect people to people injustice and government shall take strong actions against the culprits misusing the rules of Sharia for their own convenience and benefits.
It is really a pitiable situation and should be followed till the final court judgment!
"Modesty and chastity are parts of the Faith. Meekness and modesty are two branches of Iman; and vain talking and embellishing are two branches of hypocrisy" said by our Prophet
We know the Criminals in this story for that matter any logical thinking person will know who the criminals are (Father and the Retard Husband)... Sadly the F****** Judge of Saudi doesnt know...
The only good news is by the time the girl reaches puberty we can hope that husband is already dead of old age...
Victor, maybe the incident did not happen seeking the merits(sawab) from Allah for obeying religion but the people involved certainly took advantage of the religion to suit the circumstances. Hence as you said it may not be considered a religious act but has protection under the religion unless the governments recognise the same as crime. There are minimum age limits set for bride and breide groom in many countries.. so why not here?
Victor . This has happened in Saudia, where there is a relious sharia law. Forget about the divorce.. the father and the husband are criminals and they were standing in front of the court !!!! and not punished and questioned?, Great law.
A minor marriage is punishable in many coutries.. sex with a minor is considerd as rape in many countries.. thats called law.
I pity the women and children living in this region.
______________________________________________
Every society is judged by how
it treats it's least fortunates.
The girl is eight years old.
There cannot be any possible justification for an abomination such as this.
I have no more to say.
poverty could lead to such incident, but agree with some comments that Government should step up and protect such incidents by fixing the minimum age of marriages for boys and girls to avoid the confusion among general mass from different communities and exploitation of humans in the name of religion.
Lemy, what you are saying is driven by your love for your religion that you hate something said bad in its name. But the fact is that the same practice has approval in Islam and people who commit it get carried by the religious teachings. This has nothing to do with the culture because if it did we would have seen numerous such incidents taking place not just one. It is the fact, however, now that some early Islamic practices have lost credibility in the followers and accordingly disclaimed by them. It is upto the governments of the islamic states to prohibit such practices as desired by the followers themselves...
Let's not mix culture with Islam here. Just because the incident happened in Saudi, doesn't mean that Islam allows it… the girl comes from a poor family, and obviously not educated… Culture plays a big role in here, and to be clear, culture has nothing to do with religion.. being a Muslim, and knowing LOTS of Muslims gives me the right to tell everybody in this forum that this behavior is not accepted neither by Islam nor by Muslims.. its disgusting, shameless and sick…
BTW, Mr. Rami-Leb, if you r not a Muslim, then u can save ur comments if u r going to judge if Muslims "think" or "don't think" that there's a problem with that incident!!! We "Muslims" have thoughts and opinions that we can express by ourselves.. we don't need someone like u to tell others about us..
"when everybody condemn this act, you still have the guts to defend it."
i really doubt the validity of this statement, and find it hard to believe that everybody condemns and only me defends...basing from what im reading above.
anyway...if that is the case, so be it.
************
back to qouted statement:
well that is because, in the so called democratic process, anyone though taunted as criminal still have the rights for due process... and presumptions like what you had said are (correct me if i'm wrong) not mentioned anywhere in the news... i doubt if those statements of presumming will be accepted as valid in any court rooms, much more islamic courts.
and somebody has to make a stand based on what he believes... either right or wrong... it's their call.
This discussions can go on and on as long as anybody wants to, but either way, everybody can only muster to express opinions and can never force anybody to take the face value of that on their free wills.
Merry X-mas each one and all :-)
For the benefit of the doubt to what the judge decides, i think he said can not be divorced, in a sense that they are not yet officially married because it will take effect on her 18th yeart of age...so the judge can not do anything to annul the agreement between the father and the man.
"There's nothing we can do to change the past, if it teaches you a lesson profit from it then, forget it."
dmigtysolomon i just gave my own opinion, i am not a witness to this story and have no more details then you do. so its only my opinion.
Poverty is not for the sake of hardship. No, it is there because nothing exists but God. Poverty unlocks the door -- what a blessed key!
- Jalaluddin al-Rumi
I would presume that the judge is Muslim, all persons involved are Muslims, the court is a Muslim court. The religious convictions of all players have a great impact on this case!
"dgoodrebel will always be the rebellious good one"
A clear business is going on here the father sells his child to 58 year ...and the judges doesnt want to invalidate this...there is no islam involved in this case... but they may try to use cultural Islam.
Poverty is not for the sake of hardship. No, it is there because nothing exists but God. Poverty unlocks the door -- what a blessed key!
- Jalaluddin al-Rumi
when everybody condemn this act, you still have the guts to defend it.
I'll follow your logic, there is still 10 years from now until she reaches 18. But all your presumption of what will happen to the law and this current action is biased on your perception. Let's look it the other way, if the financial problem of the father get worse, and he again ask for additional dowry (possibility only), do you think his initial condition will still stand? Maybe, he will ask other old man for a bigger dowry and return the dowry of the original old man, all possibilities, and this is what we are disgusted about this case.
For a very young child (only 8) to used as "collateral" for financial gains, is really very disgusting. And that it is happening in a strict Islamic country as KSA is "perceived" more disgusting.
"dgoodrebel will always be the rebellious good one"
"I dont understand how such things are considered legal!!! the other day on the news they were reporting the honeymoon of a 9 yr old boy and his new bride a 5 yr old girl in a playground under the supervision of the parents.."
WHAT???????????
How sick can you be?
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
Moderates can only ask muslims not to do these things for God's sake but cann't say that such practices do not follow from Islam for no one can be a muslim without defending the prophet and the religion. The judge is going according to the Islamic rulings. Let it be so.The one who performed the marriage should be questioned first...There should be a state law in Islamic countries prohibiting such marriages even though the same is valid through religion. This should be ok looking at many other state laws violate islamic rulings only to accomodate non muslims' rights.
There are things that don't need elaborating why they are disgusting because they are glaringly self-evident. In this case, not even monkeys would practice this behaviour! One or two liners are as potent than a whole paragraph of seemingly academic rhetorics which are purely 'proforma'. Let's stick to issues, not on personalities.
this following fatwah from islam Q and A deals with the issue of marrying a minor.
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/27305
abu american and other muslims on this thread,
I would ask you to check the fiqh rulings again, the marriage of a minor (in islam meaning pre-puberty) is allowed with the father either agreeing or not on his daughters / son's behalf as they are a minor and cant make an informed choice and them getting the option of staying in the marriage or not upon reaching maturity.
There is even a verse in the Quran giving the waiting period after divorce for a girl before the age of puberty.
And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the ‘Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubt (about their periods), is three months; and for those who have no courses [(i.e. they are still immature) their ‘Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise, except in case of death]
[al-Talaaq 65:4]
In this case, when the girl reaches maturity, she can decide to dissolve the marriage by going to the judge if she wishes or keep the marriage if she wishes, it is her choice at that point.
or her family can have him removed as wali for his taking the mahr which is her's by right and should be kept in trust until she is old enough to take it.
lets not forget there is a great oppression in the west, where they keep youngsters from being able to marry, forcing them into haram lifestyle choices as what the creator has allowed them is denied them and what he has forbidden them the parents and society turn a blind eye to.
Abu Abdillah
Ok.. While i agree with every single one of you on the issue of WT* she is only 8 married toa 58 yr old man.. i.e a man old enough to be her father or even her grandfather.. Sheesh.. this is sick...
marriage not to be consumated until 10 years l8r.. so the man will be 68.. ugh.. this girl will be scarred for life in regards to anything to do with men..
I dont understand how such things are considered legal!!! the other day on the news they were reporting the honeymoon of a 9 yr old boy and his new bride a 5 yr old girl in a playground under the supervision of the parents.. I mean What is the motive behind these ridiculous marriages?! Money?
Why didnt her Father Find himself a new rich wife?! isnt that better than marrying off his own daughter?
WYSIWYG
the question is why did the retard father sell his 8-year-old duaghter to that retard 58-year-old, just for some small buck? as the saying goes retards with the same feather flock together.
=Dura Lex Sed Lex=
taken for sex or not, it is still not right... even if the marriage hasnt been consumated yet and will take effect only when she turns 18, the father still does not have the right to do that! especially not for the reason that he's doing it! marrying of his daughter to somebody just to clear up his financial mess? how convenient for him....
Just wondering, can the 58 year old Saudi sell her off to someone else before she's 18? Is this a form of investment in the kingdom? Will he double or triple his money? I mean, why would he do this otherwise?
there's no humanity left in this world....
I agree with Brit, but i do think that these issues should be dealt by non religious authorities.
It makes me remember the Indonesian Iman that is gonna marry a 10 y old girl and already had proposes from another 2 children, 1 was 6 and the other 9. How can a 6 yr old girl understand what means love or marriage?
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
i find it disgusting if people express opinions that are baseless and dumb founded. i don't need to qoute any, you simply need to read... unless of course they edit it later.
by simply reading some posts and read back the main issues..., i can't really find the connections of stating those harsh words... and it pisses me off.
a person's words will reveal much of the kind of thaught process is running on their mind...
anyway, i really doubt if after expressing harsh words, people will retract and accept mistakes.
had i offended anyone here, my apologies. it's not my loss at all if i ate my words... and if i am really at fault.
so be it... have to go and sleep, PEACE!!
dont have to take seriously all the the opinions of them>>peace
a character w/o virtue is a like a flower w/o perfume!
I did used it MAN!!
Why don't you ask others here who seemed to have concluded that the girl was married and was taken for sex at age 8!!
I find the comments here amusing but still disgusting... Not worthy to take side with.
So Have you used yours?
LAUGH OUT LOUD!!!
Poor, pathetic little Rami. You're really something else! Hiding behind your keyboard all day thinking about the next vitriloic thing to say about muslimas this, Qatari's that. If only I was half the man you are, people would take me a lot more seriously! ;)
Xena- as a muslim I dont condone the marriage of an 8 year old girl, nor Im sure does my family, my extended family, my muslim friends...etc. Have you personally seen a lot of men holding hands of their 8 yr old wives in these neck of the woods? I dont think so. And yes, I've read Ayaan's "infidel" but I don't quite see how she's relevant to the thread? I agree, based off what I read from the book, she's suffered a lot and I commend her for her efforts on womens rights, but she's no more a representation of islam than say, David Duke is to Christianity.
it's disgusting as well:
- that americans and israellites can kill any arabs if taunted as terrorists, and still be called dignified for their acts. is that democratic?
- that terrorists can blew themselves up killing innocent civilians and still be called dignified and be sent to heaven and be given wives. is that islamic?
- and disgusting that the poor fellows here who earned measely were not allowed to enter the malls because of their looks and pungent smells. is that humanely?
- and disgusting that the rich can throw aways millions if not billions for their pleasures, amidsts hunger in africa and elsewhere!
- and whatelse can be more disgusting??
- IS IT DISGUSTING for a child who was forced to marry at age 8 and later be turned over to his husband when she turns 18 ONLY!! YES GRANTED!! But do you honestly believe that the law today will still be the same governing law 10 years hereafter? And divorce is not yet allowed? With the kind of changes happening now in ARAB worlds slowly eaten up and turning into so called capitalist democracy?
I THINK THAT FATHER IS WISE ACTUALLY IN HIS ACTIONS!!
SO WHICH IS DISGUSTING TO YOU ??
the culture of WHAT/WHO/WHERE is not disgusting really??
a comment/s of one or two liners, whithout concrete justifications is disgusting to me...
no culture, or country can ever justify it. It SUCKS big time!
i still don't find it very disgusting to gather
too much of "SUBJECTIVE" and disgusting comments as i'd viewed above.
as if people here had assumed that the girl was forcefully married and being taken sexually as a wife.... you're hypocrites if you don't really meant that!!
so what about chineese? they do arrange marriage because of business issues? is that disgusting as well?
does it mean that the practice is disgusting if you're an arab and not at all if you're a chineese??
yeah... 666 your right on that!
"Fu8kin retards.......... Should be killed"
PEACE :-)
"They said that the father had set a verbal condition by which the marriage is not consummated for another 10 years, when the girl turns 18."
*****************
As it was stated!
"IS NOT CONSUMATED" OR "NOT ACCOMPLISHED" OR "NOT CARRIED OUT" for 10 YEARS!!
WILL TOOK EFFECT ONLY when she turns 18!!
So what's with the fuss??
It happens in the chinese culture as well, pre-arranged marriage is common to them is'nt it??
TSK TSK TSK... WAR CAN BROKE LOOSE FROM SIMPLE MIS-UNDERSTANDINGS ^-^
sorry this is what i hate about their culture... they are making business out of their daughters... :/
[img_assist|nid=12867|link=none|align=left|width=|height=0]Nothing in life is to be feared. It is only to be understood.
then why not maximize the potential?
and bring forth unto this world a dozens or more of daughters for business purposes.
hmmm... i think of otherwise. given a difficult circumstances, it forces us to do things that seems uncomprehensible to many.
it's just a matter of taking which choice to take.
PEACE! :-)
Dang this is retarded...
--------
Lebanon... the love of my soul!
From what this and the other articles circulating say, the marriage is legally valid.
The judge couldn't force the groom to repay the 30,000SAR dowry to the father because the marriage contract (even without the express consent of the girl) is, in the eyes of this particular sort of court, valid.
I hardly think it's altogether relevant whether such a thing is a cultural or religious practise. In either case, it's an abhorent practise.
Welcome to Middle East!
Make Love... Not War!
In Saudi, are there two kinds of marriage, civil and Islamic? Are there two kinds of courts? Sharia and civil? Please, it is only now that I learned this, I thought everything here in this region is Shariah Courts? Please excuse my ignorance!
"dgoodrebel will always be the rebellious good one"
selling 8yrs old daughter to cover financial problem!!!
does he not have any other options????
which one is that ??
"dgoodrebel will always be the rebellious good one"
a 14-year-old boy married a 42-year-old woman - all legal.
Fact is that idiotic pratices take place all over the world - In all religions, in all races.
We all need to stand up and fight against them.
anyone here read Ayaan Hirsi Ali's biography called "Infidel" ? Now there is a woman that fights for womens and childrens rights... and now she is permanently in hiding because of her renouncing Islam and their practices.... apparently the mullas want her dead... already killed her friend Theo van Gogh for the movie they made together about Islamic practices with regards to women.
"if you don't like the heat... get out of the kitchen... but stop trying to fan the flames before you leave... it will burn you on the a** as you go through the doorway...." ME
visit www.qaws.org
rami leb, theres no need to be rude and catergorise all muslims in the one box. it seems to me that no matter how many muslims condem this act, they will never satisfy you, you will find some way to further criticise Islam and muslims. Theres a few muslims on this thread including myself who already made comments but that wasnt enough. As Brit pointed out 'there are cases of child brides all over Asia, even Eastern Europe. Doesnt make any of it right, but bashing all muslims because of this case is not right too. And for the record muslims are allowed 4 wives not 8(even though i know your being sarcastic).
This practice or way of parents to children must be stopped...Child's right should have this bill of rights considered. And if in power, i would have the father executed firing squad...
"There's nothing we can do to change the past, if it teaches you a lesson profit from it then, forget it."
and he had no right to do that!! if he's in a financial mess, why dont he peddle his own ass...
The father was basically "selling" his daughter in order to alleviate financial problems..
I am not justifying or condoning this stupid act.
I was just making the point regarding cultural aspects and education.
There are cases of child brides all over Asia, even Eastern Europe.
This year there was an uproar in Arkansas because ligislators repealed a law allowing minors to marry with parental consent.
for me, it doesn't matter if she gets the dowry or not, or whether or not she can have the marriage dissolved eventually,.. bottom line.. she shouldn't have been put through all of this... and it was clear that the dowry went to that thick father of hers who was apparently having financial problems at the time... hell, why dont he get married to that 58 year old guy instead?...
first of all the mahr (bridal gift) goes to the bride not the father!
but as far as i am aware from my limited knowledge of islamic law, the judge is strictly speaking correct, if a minor is married then when he or she reaches puberty then they can choose to keep the marriage or dissolve it and before this the decision to marry or not remains with the guardian, i.e the father.
an alternative route for the family, if he has kept the mahr for himself would be to go to the courts and have him declared unfit as her wali (guardian) and someone else more religiously inclinded from the family put in place as her wali who could choose to go to the courts and get the marriage annulled and the father would even have to pay back the mahr he has kept.
Abu Abdillah
rather than religious. But religion is part of culture or shall we say, religion influence on cultural practices should be strong and firmed.
Because if they truly feared God/Allah, then why this kind of scenarios? Strong conviction to your religion do influenced one's action.
"dgoodrebel will always be the rebellious good one"
As with anything,bringing these types of stories to the public attention raises awareness and also helps others who may become "victims" in the future.
The fact that Saudi papers carried this, is an achievement in itself.
It has nothing whatsoever to do with Islam, but deep rooted cultural practices within the country. (similar to the example you gave about India).
Like you, I hope that the appeal is upheld and a clear message sent to all that this type of this is abhorant.
where are the staunch defender of Islam? As I said before, unless these kind of people are expelled from Islam, it only meant one thing, this kind of action is sanctioned or agreed upon by Islam.
In the first place, the Judge is a Muslim in a Muslim court, right Malabari and sisterfatima? Your silence is deafening!
"dgoodrebel will always be the rebellious good one"
I am a converted Muslim, i do not agree to this kind of marriage. But in fairness, please don't forget that as there are rare such marriages in the gulf, in India, it is common, they arrange their unborn child marry a grown up man and let the girl live with the man when born till she grew up.. as young as one year old to seven, are arranged by their parents with older men to marry their daughters to free them from their responsibilities of growing them. It is sickening to think such practice,and there are chances to correct it but no one does. The judge is one sick and untrue to his profession by not giving a chance for the child to choose, let's say, she is not yet able to decide for herself should be the same that she should not be married till she reach the age of 18.
"There's nothing we can do to change the past, if it teaches you a lesson profit from it then, forget it."
But not old enough for a divorce is the way I read it.....
what a f*&^ing bunch of ignorant, stupid, moronic, troglodytes.....
"Your born, You Live, You Die, given this premise, one can conclude since we have no control over when we are born and when we die, the only thing that matters to us should be how we live, simple really?" Mis-Cat to her philosophy Lecturer.
Well, Ummjake, perhaps since no moderate Muslims have commented on this piece, condemning the father/mother/judge/culture, it may actually be safe to assume that moderate Muslims *don't* think there's a problem.
What other reason might there be for the painful silence from the usual suspects?
Perhaps the only reason they are quiet is because they really want to voice their support for the husband, and are too affraid to do so.
See? THIS is the kind of stuff that makes everyone in the west think that Islam is a crazy religion, run by a bunch of fanatical mysogynists and pedophiles. Why don't more moderate Muslims speak out against stuff like this? This is the stuff that makes the news and headlines in the US and Europe, and so when there is no response from other factions in Muslim society about incidents like this, when they don't go out of their way to say loudly and clearly that this does NOT represent their beliefs and religion, then everyone interprets their collective silence to mean that it is okay/accepted/condoned.
It's stuff like this that turned me off of the religion years ago...they've let it become hijacked by the fringe extremists. Who would sign on to be a part of that?
removed by mod
yes brit but in this case the judge could overide the contracts(which in this case is not valid), but he chose not to.
I agree with you. I baldricked the story and found it on the Arab News website..
The lawyer said that "he He also said part of the problem was notaries who write marriage contracts without seeking the consent of young brides and taking into account objections raised by health workers who carry out premarital tests."
http://www.arabnews.com/?page=1§ion=0&article=117401&d=22&m=12&y=2008&pix=kingdom.jpg&category=Kingdom
damn that judge, and damn the father who plotted all these... the child does not deserve a burden such as this, at her age, she should be playing with fellow kids and enjoying childhood....
Wheres all the hardcore Muslims ?
"A man may fight for many things.His country,his friends,his principles,the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child.
But personally,I'd mud wrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock and a sackful of porn."
Blackadder.
Brit that technicality would be valid, if the marriage was valid which clearly isnt in this case.
really really strange!
"dgoodrebel will always be the rebellious good one"
It does seem a bit strange. However, the judge rejected the application on a "technicality"
Let's hope that the appeal is successful.
Fu8kin retards.......... Should be killed.
ill second oryxs comments, truly disgusting. Any decent shariah judge would know this marriage is null and void since the girl hasnt consented to this..
so disgusting...grrrr....i want to puke....=(
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and she is just 8 years old!
"dgoodrebel will always be the rebellious good one"
Selling your own children....shameless and heartless
the father should be imprisoned and the judge too...
disgusting.
the judge is just legalising child trafficking...