The Future Belongs to Islam?

Gumby i can speak for myself, and i have done what u have said. What others do cannot be my burden to bear.

I am afraid, that goes for u too.

But when it comes to death, ur so wrong.

The holy Quran does not equate death for apostates.

Back up ur arguments with proof not hearsay.

Organized religion keep us on the box....time to go out from the box and seek for our true nature and powers.

peace..

hahaha!

So would you educate us about this "son" thing, RR?

How PHYSICAL is this word "son"? Was there an actual marriage? What's the story behind it? Any proofs/texts? Do you mean that the "Lord" is the son of the "God" or the other way around?

Some information is REALLY appreciated here to clarify all the hidden things!

lol Alexa, your not too bad yourself... .... its that broken record..hard to miss...

Dont bother Britexpat, its khallas/mir blah blah back with his broken record again. He was banned and back again...

All faiths should be allowed to practice their faith, but why do you only equate the "Middle East" with Islam ?

As someone stated earlier Indonesia, Malaysia, India and Pakistan have far far more muslims.

The fact that Australia or any other country allows religious freedom and building of religious schools shows that their society has developed and they are humane.

People who are hindus are also not allowed to practice their faith in the Middle east while these people want a school of faith established in Australia....

Nonsense It has spoilt only people who lack in faith convert thinking their financial soundness goes up which is only short term...>>>The world as a whole needs to ostracize this community this again boils back to Double standards.....By muslims.......Preach hatred against them after my recount of personal experience........

A pack who are completely obsessed with white skin who cant sacrifice and yet bring their own rules in the world............

I am not sure that Islam actually stipulates "death" for converting. As far as I know, it only says that you will be punished in the after life (Hell I suppose). Perhaps some other QLer can clarify.But I wanted to share an experince I saw in Saudi Arabia.

An Australian colleague converted to Islam. He was ostracized by many in the Aussie community and even his wife as abused by someof the ladies for allowing this.

My point is that people in all religions "cannot or do not" come to terms with someone wanting to convert. They tend yto tak it as a personal afront.

Shuaibkazi, when I see a Muslim able to stand up and say "No, this religion is not for me, thank you." and then have his hand shaken by other Muslims who congratulate him for living honestly and following his conscience I will belive what you say about compulsion.

You and I both know the chance of that happening is exceedingly rare. As long as Muslim are threatened with death for choosing to become ex-Muslims (when do they choose to become Muslims, oh right, there is no choice in the matter...) then I can not take you post in the least seriously and believe your posts about compulsion in religion to be self-deceiving.

Personally, I would rather have 10 people in my club who have knowingly studied and make a conscious decision than 100 who fear for their safety if they choose otherwise.

I Guess theres a relation between the reason for the high birth rate and the infant mortality rate. Since children dont survive, people in these countries tend to have more children

Countries with the Highest Birth Rates in the World

Rank Country Birth rate(births/1,000 population)

1 Niger 48.91

2 Uganda 47.45

3 Mali 47.29

4 Afghanistan 47.27

5 Chad 46.50

6 Somalia 46.04

7 Angola 45.14

8 Liberia 44.81

9 Congo, Democratic Republic of the 44.73

10 Burkina Faso 44.46

11 Malawi 44.35

12 Sierra Leone 43.34

13 Yemen 43.16

14 Benin 42.57

15 Guinea 42.26

16 Madagascar 41.91

17 Mauritania 41.79

18 Zambia 41.77

19 Sao Tome and Principe 41.36

20 Nigeria 40.87

Source: CIA World Factbook

Countries with the Highest Infant Mortality Rates in the World

Rank Country Infant mortality rate(deaths/1,000 live births)

1 Angola 192.50

2 Afghanistan 165.96

3 Sierra Leone 145.24

4 Mozambique 132.04

5 Liberia 130.51

6 Niger 122.66

7 Somalia 118.52

8 Mali 117.99

9 Tajikistan 112.10

10 Guinea-Bissau 108.72

11 Djibouti 105.54

12 Malawi 104.23

13 Bhutan 102.56

14 Tanzania 100.55

15 Nigeria 100.38

16 Burkina Faso 98.67

17 Ethiopia 96.93

18 Chad 94.78

19 Congo, Democratic Republic of the 94.69

20 Congo, Republic of the 93.86

Source: CIA World Factbook

Nice read really!

But i just have one question

Isnt a rise in population and a corresponding deterioration in the standard of living a general problem in ur country or for that matter the whole of Asia and africa regardless of race or religion?

Mmmm, but in the Arab Muslim world the birth rate is completely unsustainable and must collapse in the near future. The demographic numbers I have seen show Islam's relative position in the world unchanged for the next 40 years. The mid-east in particular in sitting in a demographic time bomb that must change, the economies of the region are not capable of supporting the coming bulge of 15-24 year olds. Either people will choose smaller families on their own, or else they will have no choice due to economic and resource limitations.

Respectfully,

Why is it in the bible the name of "Jesus Christ, the son of God our savior" is not abbreviated. Yet, when I read "Prophet Mohammed (PBUH)" has this four letter abbreviation?

There is no abbreviation on the Bible for the name Jesus Christ, the son of God our savior.

I'm not trying to disrespect no one on this matter. I'm just trying to educate my self about it.

Jesus said: "you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."John8:32

Let their be no compulsion in religion:Truth stands out clear from error.Quran2:2

Mark Steyn is being pessimistic. I have only read about half of the article but what i see is thatz what one calls evolution and the change that this world goes through since ages.

I also attribute the so low or fraction birth rate due to many factors and one of the major aspect that i personally feel is the cause is unnecessary and unwanted consumerism / materialism prevalent among all the well to do societies irrespective in which region / continent or country they live in. This excessive consumerism causes others to follow suit resulting in late marriages. late and lesser children and often no children.

One shoould not be afraid of like what Mr. Mark Steyn is of Islam engulfing the major decisions of this planet or for that matter any other religious people.

I am surely not the advocate of large family members or over reproduction... like we see in many or most of the muslims from Africa / Asia or middle East. they end up living in pathetic poor conditions & this being the SECOND of the unlicky/poor youth being attracted to gun which indirectly provides money to live and power.

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IAM GOING TO BATHROOM PEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE SILLY SILLY SILLY DAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY

It sure can happen, but u have to remember that the US legislated the deal asa security threat since it dealt with Cargo.

U cant do the same with Real Estate unless its a government estate.

Even then there are exceptions which i am personally aware of (Germany to be specific).

When it comes to china, its a FX issue and the trade benefit which it has with the rest of the world.

Sub-prime is in no way temporary

Do u call a Loan drawdown for a real estate projected in the profits of a financial institution for the next 20 years temporary

I dont think so!

Shuaibkazi, again what is your read on that deal? Why it can’t happen to any of these purchases? There are hundreds of ways these things can be controlled which mostly favors the holding countries to benefit more.

China may be holdings trillions of dollars of treasury, but they can't pull out . It is china which going to be affected the most.

Also this sub -prime is a temporary phenomenon, will pass out after certain period. But what is important is the way western economies operate. As long as they operate with highest efficiencies, innovate, flexible and dynamic (most of the inventions and discoveries), they will be least affected.

DP worlds acquisition of Peninsular and Oriental Steam Navigation Company (P&O)was actually finalized long back in 2006, our bank was one of the funders for that acquisition.

Dubai Ports World eventually sold P&O's American operations to American International Group's asset management division, Global Investment Group for an undisclosed sum.

Infact i had made the study for the risk group - back then i was an analyst.

What do u understand by a reversal or a neutralizing factor,

Do u know the state of the european and the american economy,

The sub - prime has hit the market forces hard, a study suggests that the european and american banks & institutions are sitting on 2 Trillion dollars of NPA's & Bad Debts.

What i am saying is from my own personal experience. the sheer volume of acquisitions which will be seen in the coming days is astounding to say the least.

But u see Islam is an ideology which is not based in any culture

It has ideas which touch the very fabric of society, it is seen as a complete way of life,

Never think of Arabs as the propagators of this idea.

Do u know that not even a single missionary or an army went to Indonesia. But the people back then like this ideology and accepted it.

Today it has the most number of Muslims in the world.

first of all these are not caliphates but monarchys

Secondly arent u coexisting with muslims in peace hereitself,

How many have come straight to ur face and called u an infidel

If u want to open a methodist or a protestant church u are free to approach ur embassy and forward a proposal. Iam sure u will get the approval.

If u want something to be done - work for it.

With the fast changing nature of Middle East like Dubai, Qatar etc whether European countries are Islamized or not, don’t know that. But few of these countries will soon over take them and westernized leaving behind Islam.

Yes, disenchanted youth turn to religion. In the UK many are turning to Islam. However, in reality their numbers are irrelevant.

In the last fourty years, I have seen the numbers of Muslims increase in both the UK and Denmark. Those muslims born and bred in those countries are integrating better than their parents and holding positions, their parents never even concieved possible.

A caliphate system in a major Europe country will never happen.

In fact, it probably won;'t even happen in an Islamic country.

Shuaibkazi, your logic about foreign investment by Arab govts doesn't make sense. Any such market actions can be reversed or neutralized by similar market forces.

A simple legislation is enough. Do you know the story of Dubai world's purchase of a company involved in New York port operations?

why in KSA and mostly middleeast "islamic" (or monarchy or emirates) do not give full freedom for other religion to practice their conviction. In Qatar, if you will argue that Catholicism is allowed, but catholicism is not the "whole" christianity (actually their christianity is debatable itself).

Again, the perception of (fear) by the author basing on the population growth is of no foundation. Islam is great if they could only co-exist with others in the true sense as their Holy Quran says.

"dgoodrebel will always be the rebellious good one"

My word against urs till then.

I can't see that happening, as these children become more and more integrated, second and third generation, they will become more Western, probably leaving religion behind.

Visit www.qatarhappening.com

We have noticed that in times of turmoil a religious youth usually turns to the Quran and the sunnah for advice,

If that remains in a european country over run by muslim youths, the majority might soon end up setting up a caliphate upholding the word of God as a political system

Hence i believe his anxiety is not completely confounded

Islam is a complete way of life which even holds the political position in its grasp.

Today u dont have any muslim country in the true sense of the word.

All are monarchies or democracies.

Its a challenge u wont find any Islamic political state in the world.

ur mis-understood

A muslim cannot be a good muslim unless he acknowledges the freedom of another person to practice a faith which is different from his own. this is asper the Quran and the Sahih Hadith.

For this the person has to be a fundamentalist (a person who understands and administers his life by the fundamentals of the Quran and the sunnah)

Tolerance is a part of a fundamentalists approach to everything in this life

Well in that case the author is really just fear mongering isn't he?

Hmmm, but does that mean he should be sued?

Visit www.qatarhappening.com

Shuaib: Why do u differentiate with a Fundamentalist Muslim and a moderate muslim?

A fundamental Muslim, correct me if I'm wrong, is someone who upholds in his life what has been written in the Holy Book and spoken by the Prophet Muhammed(PBUH), to the true spirit of the word. What prevents him from being a moderate,who, in my defenition, is someone who accepts and acknowledges the beliefs of other people and believes in tolerance and diversity??

Gypsy: Are you sure Christianity is the major relegion in China?? I was under the impression that it must be Buddhism or Taoism and so on...Searched thenet but cudnt find percentages of believers. Yeah abt 80% of Indian population is Hindu , I suppose.

Life is like poker.You pay for what you learn.n the only way you learn is with the cards in ur hand and money on the table.

Well then when Islam crumbles I guess you'll be hearing a lot of voices.

Visit www.qatarhappening.com

Communism, Socialism, Fascism or even democracy

Only when the ideology crumbles will u find that the majority accuses it of malpractice,

20 or 30 million out of 1 billion, that's not too much, neither is 100 million out of almost 2 billion. As for fundmentalist/extremist/passive, this is what you say, but I seriously wonder how many Muslims really are 'passive' but are simply scared of backlash from their community so don't voice their opinions.

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WINN - i agree with u 101%

JUst for the record,

Do not mistake extremism with fundamentalism,

There are no moderate muslims,

Thats a western ideology, those who call themselves moderate muslims are infact passive muslims,

In the general muslims view, there are Extremist Muslims and Fundamental Muslims,

By the way the number of Muslims in India and china would put to shame even the 100% Islamic states.

20 million to 30 million people in China

And 151 Million in India

Shuaib: This is exactly what makes people like this author uneasy. When the distinction between an immigrant and a local blurs, when the way of living they were comfortable with changes, when the majority is slowly sidelined and the legal system they were abiding with takes up a new turn, its almost like ur country is taken away from you.

I for one would defenitely feel uneasy if i feel a steady influx of people from a different culture trickles in and one day I suddenly wake up to the fact that they have become a sizeable part of the population and are demanding their own legacy to supercede the one i've grown up with. Wouldnt you??

The question here is not abt immigration and citizenship. It is about ethnicity/belief,culture and ancestry.

Life is like poker.You pay for what you learn.n the only way you learn is with the cards in ur hand and money on the table.

WOW! Can't believe this thread has actually stayed respectful and intellectual.

Ok time for me to comment:

In regards to the article itself, As much as I disagree with the authors pharseing, which I have to agree does strive to create fear of Muslims, he does have some good points about the future effects of low birth rates in the West and high birth rates in the East. HOWEVER what he completely forgot to point out is that the two nations with the largest populations China and India are not majority Muslim. China is mostly Christian and India is mostly Hindu, so unless Islam makes major strides in either of these nations, his idea that the future belongs to Islam is unfounded.

Also, Islam right now is where Christianity was during the Renissance. The majority of people are finding their religious fervour becoming more moderate, unfortunatly there's enough fundamentalist (and violent fundamentalists at that) to scare them away from voicing these moderate beliefs. People don't want to be pointed out as being bad Muslims so they simply remain quiet and let the fundamentalists have their way. This will change, so within a few generations (roughly the time the Western population has died/bred out) Islam will be where Christianity and Judaism are today, therefore not a threat.

Looking at the freedom of speech issue, I do think it was wrong of the Islamic Council to bring charges against McLeans. If you look at the article it appeared as a excerpt from a recently published book in the new books section. Really I think they should be bringing the charges against the author, not the mag. And anyway both parties had every right to publish what they did, so I believe freedom of speech will win out.

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There isnt any hard and fast rule for whos an immigrant and whose a citizen anymore, in a diversified society anyone and everyone has the right to change his citizenship and adopt another.

Secondly political systems diversify and amalgamate ideas of the masses in to the manner of ruling the masses. This way they are successful.

If any ideology is widely accepted as the best suitable for the masses - it wins

Well ...fear/paranoia will arise wen a way of life which a particular nation has been following is questioned by an immigrant population. Like, groups demanding sharia law to be imposed in any western country is defenitely going to be viewd with suspicion.

Immigrants are expected (and justifiably so)to abide by the rules and accept( not necessarily adopt) the culture of the society they move into and live peacefully. If they have a problem with the culture of a country/legal system, they shudn't be going there.When they try to change it, it naturally leads to tension.

There was a comment on why a person could not be westerner and Muslim. The term Westerner has stood for more than a geographical location. It stands for a culture, a way of living which is different from, say, the Far eastern, Arab way of living.

But for Muslims there is more of a common thread of culture/way of living that binds them whether they are Indians, Brits or Africans.(m not overlooking changes caused by geographical effects)Which might not exactly merge with what is traditionally considered western.

The author's point of a median age of 15.8 in the Gaza strip: If a whole younger generation, which forms a considerable chunk of the population, grows up in a time of constant clash of cultures, in the absence of peace and a force that guides them as to the necessity of diversity in the modern world, they can and will grow up to a future society which is mentally geared for suspicion and non-tolerance.

Life is like poker.You pay for what you learn.n the only way you learn is with the cards in ur hand and money on the table.

Maryam as u know is after the mother of Jesus (MARY)

And Namazie in the persian language means "A person who Prays regularly)

Ironic!! LOL!!!

Islam is the only religion which clearly says that

"there is no compulsion in religion"

And doesnt stop there but also says

"Every good deed done by a non muslim will be also given his due reward in this life, but not the next"

So if u dont believe in a hereafter u shud be happy that theres a religion which treats u with respect for doing good in this life.

hate to say it, but i agree with you about Muryam Namzie".

Her comments are more reactionary than anything else. She talks about democracy, rights etc, but these are actuall ingrained in Islamic jurisprudence, but not "practiced" by the leaders of Islamic countries.

A govt. which is also being financed by the same Ilk.

Catch my drift!

Thats a whole lot of Crap with no backing whatsoever,

Has she referenced anything from the Islamic Jurisprudence or has she just made false accusations which are not based on any factual evidence - that is the question u ave to ask urself.

Its very easy to fling poo.

lets get real. the state department or homeland security or NSA can use any small details to sieze the funds of an individual, company or nation.

Any foreign country which has been ruled by an Islamic Judiciary has only flourished,

Try to convince me otherwise - anyone?

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Everything passes through the standards of the BIS ( Bank for International Settlements)

Legally all the channels are closed for such a behaviour,

And also most of these countrys are open democracies which do not put a hindrance on Foreign direct investments.

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Yes that will be true, until the West uses an excuse to "sieze all the assets"

in the practice of one's religion, that's where the negative perception rises. If only everybody could co-exist and respect individual's own religious conviction, I think the negative perceptions will be gone. The Bible or other religious books ordered men to honor their goverment as long as the goverment does not prevent the people to practice their own religion. NO EXCEPTION, religious persecution is one reason why we can not totally achieved peace.

"dgoodrebel will always be the rebellious good one"

And on the other end u have the numerous funds buying hot properties in the major european cities and the US for a song

Most of these european cities are being absorbed into the international assets of the Arab world

Even if there is no revolution, sooner or later the Middle east is going to have a major say in the western world (Islam as a factor or not is not the issue)

Anyone heard about the "Shard of Glass" UK

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shard_of_glass

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Well I have finished my coffee and as much as I hate to walk away from this thread - I need to do what it is I'm paid to do. Let's hope Gypsy get's on here at some point and shakes a few more apples from the tree.

Great thread Gypsy. And great dialogue from most everyone so far. Let's keep it intellectual and ignore those who want to send it into the gutter.

I will be very disappointed if this thread is banned by the time I can check back in.

"chirped" - very cute. :)

Well chirped..

Agree with you wholeheartedly..

Islam includes all aspects of good governance etc.

However, the problem as you rightly tweeted is that the power has been misused to subjugate and manipilate the people.

Communism in its purest form is not all bad. The communism you cite is the form that has been twisted by human involvement to further the agendas of the few instead of the many. The same can be said of religion. Most religious Holy books (the Bible, the Koran, the Torah) are not about hate and the killing of innocents. They preach love, respect and treating others how we ourselves would like to be treated. But like governmental ideaologies such as communism (and democracy) human beings get their dirty hands on it, twist it to suit their needs and present it as fact.

The comment below sums up exactly my opinion on the subject of religion. There should be a separation between religion and politics. And it should always be noted that every major religion has spilled blood in the name of their God.

"But I think it matters mostly because it is the banner of a reactionary political movement.... This type of politics ignores the distinction between the oppressed and oppressor and actually sees them as one and the same. It is politics that implies that people want to live the way they are forced to. That they actually deserve no better because it is ‘their own culture and religion’ imputing on innumerable people the most reactionary elements of culture and religion, which is that of the ruling class, parasitical imams and self-appointed ‘community leaders’.

Otherwise, Islam is no different from other religions.

You can find just as much misogyny, cruelty and inhumanity in the Bible or other religious books as you can in the Koran."

Burj, watch u r language, if u cannot respect other people and religions get out of a muslim country before you are kicked !!!

but related.

Those that wish to impose there beliefs on others, by force if necessary, are those that should be fought with every weapon at our disposal. And if they find comments offensive but are prepared to kill innocents on a whim then that's just their hard luck. this brand of religion has been hijacked for political reasons - see the post below from todays Press Trust of India.

"Snehesh Alex Philip

New Delhi, June 3 (PTI) After decades of bloodbath in the name of jihad or holy war, terrorists are changing gear and indulging in 'qattal', an act by which they kill even their own people, a top Pakistan leader said.

"Terrorists are now replacing the term jihad with the Islamic term qattal for their acts," Hasham Baber, additional secretary general of Pakistan's Awami National Party told PTI.

Hardline religious leaders in Pakistan are now using the new term because moderate Muslims have started denouncing the use of jihad by terrorists who indulge in violence in the name of Islam, said Baber.

Explaining the term 'jihad', Baber, who was in India to attend an anti-terrorism conference, said: "It is not about fighting a war or battle or even killing people but a struggle for peace. It means a collective decision to struggle.

"Qattal, on the other hand, means I am allowed to kill a Hindu, Christian at will or even a Shia." Stressing that Islam does not permit killing of innocents, he said "Terrorism is being given a religious colour by fundamentalists out to achieve their skewed agenda."

Baber, whose party is part of the newly-elected PPP-led coalition, said: "The religious education in Pakistan as whole has degenerated into bloodshed."

The senior leader said what is now happening in the name of terrorism is nothing but proxy war.

"Today two countries don't fight with each other. Terrorists are trained and are being sent out by establishments to wage proxy war with each other," he claimed. PTI"

http://www.ptinews.com/pti%5Cptisite.nsf/0/7D238DD6B81D539C6525745D00215316?OpenDocument

"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365

not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the

many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers

were given. Satan - 10."

___ onefatamerican

____twofatamericans

____threefatamericans

___ forfatamericans no more pork!

If you see evil in others, it is actually the reflection of your own evil feelings

A communist reading your post might be offended by your comments and deduce it as inciting hatred against communists. Free speech goes too far when it offends others - careful you might find yourself in court for 'denigrating' communists. :)

Actually you have every right to say what you have and half of it I agree with. That is why religion, Islam included, has no right to be immune from criticism, mockery or dismissal. Denmark will always be the stronger for upholding this principal rather than submitting to others offense, no matter how many of their embassies people attack.

"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365

not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the

many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers

were given. Satan - 10."

Maryam Namazie has a cheek when the reality is far removed from what she propogates...that's the problem with Communists...they don't even understand their own ideology...Communism is dead because it goes against mans nature..it denies religion even though man is created with the instinct of religiousity hence the communists surpressed all religion and then they started worshipping Marx and Lenin!!! bowing to their statues and worshipping their books....communists butchered millions in russia, china and eastern europe...it is a most wicked ideology that contradicts mans nature and is built upon falsehood and deception....it strives to cause anarchy and uses any means to enforce the will of the state and those in the system of disposable and are just another statistic because the system comes first...

true alexa, how dare I compare that wonderful, magical animal that provides us with ham, pork chops and bacon to a less desirable former member of QL.

___Yea I remember: mir=peace;skud=shield;hariom=happy-go-lucky rickshaw driver_________________________

If you see evil in others, it is actually the reflection of your own evil feelings

lol Alexa, hariom (aka khallas) is the swine.

he did come back with the nick hariom cursing the muslim few days ago

guess qatari banned him again for badmouthing

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_______checking IP?__________________

If you see evil in others, it is actually the reflection of your own evil feelings

it wud be better to say, the future belongs to young ones... much better dan any religion, though.

hu knws wat future brings, only people suffers and dats d fact. so let muslims hav der future and others hav ders...

it wont mix, nor let d others rule over... so let dem be, if it makes dem hapi.

though, honestly, no religion name shud be put on d title of dat article, it wil only giv prob.

**********************************************

"Remember, when the world pushes you to your knees, you're in the perfect position to pray" (anonymous)

why do i feel like Khallas is Mir.

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___lol______________________________________

If you see evil in others, it is actually the reflection of your own evil feelings

damn, is there going to be a pork shortage?

nah, I'm not that bothered about the teachings of any religion........

"It is dangerous to be sincere unless you are also stupid."

- George Bernard Shaw (1856-1950)

I demand it! ;)

"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365

not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the

many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers

were given. Satan - 10."

eeeuurghhh.....and you want us to read that at 21:32??

Yawns

"It is dangerous to be sincere unless you are also stupid."

- George Bernard Shaw (1856-1950)

t

The article certainly paints Muslims as an enemy and it could be said to indirectly induce hatred because of the style in which it is written. It is a complex issue but one way to counter his argument is to demand a more aggressive secularism in society, in which religious freedom is granted to all but is kept well away from the workings of the state & laws etc.

Here is an interesting article by Maryam Namazie which outlines her views on political Islam as opposed to the private practice of the religion of Islam. Sorry for the long post but some people don't use links.

Maryam Namazie is a communist political activist of Iranian descent. She is mainly known for her activities for women's rights, asylum seeker's rights, gay rights and for her fight against the Islamic republic and political Islam internationally. She is also the leader of the Council of Ex-Muslims of Britain

Below is Maryam Namazie’s speech at an alternative to the Islamic conference in Koln, Germany on May 31, 2008.

"More than many other things, Islam matters.

But I think it matters mostly because it is the banner of a reactionary political movement.

Otherwise, Islam is no different from other religions.

You can find just as much misogyny, cruelty and inhumanity in the Bible or other religious books as you can in the Koran.

And Islam, Christianity or Judaism are fundamentally no different from Scientology or Moon’s Unification Church, which the German government deems to be ‘cults endangering social and personal development.’

After all, what do they think religion is?

But even so, today - as we speak - there is still a distinction to be made between religion in general and Islam in particular but for no other reason than that it is the ideology behind a movement that is, in many places, part and parcel of the state, the law, criminal so-called ‘justice’ system, judiciary, and educational system.

I think this point is key for a principled criticism of Islam and more importantly a progressive and humane response to the totalitarianism of our era.

This means, firstly, that we have a duty to criticise Islam; this goes beyond the mere right to and freedom of speech and expression.

Clearly, the German government - in fact all European governments - the United Nations, the religious nationalist European left and other apologists for Islam don’t think so. Germany’s Minister of the Interior Wolfgang Schäuble, for example, is so concerned about Islam’s image that he is quoted as saying that media reports on Islam often concentrate on the subject of violence and rarely focus on the reality of Islam in everyday life.

But the reality of Islam in everyday life is far more violent than anything even a minister in a government with close relations with the political Islamic movement could fathom. Entire generations slaughtered over decades and buried in mass graves in Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere.

The human cost of Islam in power is enough of a reason - the only necessary reason - to make criticism a task and duty.

After all, it is impossible - let me repeat impossible - to challenge a political movement that has wreaked havoc primarily for the people of the Middle East and North Africa if you are not allowed to fully and unequivocally criticise its ideology and banner.

Now I know some say that the problem is not Islam but the fundamentalist interpretation of Islam. But in my opinion, there can be no Islamic feminism, Islamic reformism, Islamic democracy, Islamic human rights, and moderate interpretations of Islam when it is in power.

Of course there are Muslims or those labelled as such who have humanist, secularist, moderate, feminist, atheist, communist and other progressive viewpoints but this is not one and the same with Islam in power being as such.

In my opinion, a ‘moderate’ or ‘reformed’ religion is one that has been pushed back and reigned in by an enlightenment. And not before.

Criticism of religion has always been an important vehicle for progress and the betterment of humanity’s lot.

And it is within this context that criticism of Islam finds meaning. The right wing’s virulent criticism of Islam and its sudden championing of women’s rights in the Middle East - whilst legislating religious morality and misogyny here at home - self-servingly ignores the main issue at hand, which is religion and political power.

If we are going to win this battle again - as in centuries past - we have to push Islam and religion out of the public sphere. Full stop.

There can’t be any compromise because too many lives are at stake. And compromise includes the misguided liberal attempts at interfaith coalitions thereby increasing the numbers of religions and beliefs that have access to power in society or more reactionary sorts of appeasement such as that of the German government or the likes of the Tony Blair Faith Foundation. In case you haven’t yet heard, the Tony Blair Faith Foundation launched recently in order ‘to promote respect and understanding about the world's major religions and show how faith is a powerful force for good in the modern world.’ Religion wouldn’t need one public relations campaign after another if it was so good, now would it? Even calling it ‘faith’ and avoiding the term religion won’t get around the fact that it is the genocidaire of our age.

Either way - misguided or purely out of economic and political interests - these endeavours only serve to increase, justify and consolidate the role of religion in society - and are part of the problem rather than any solution.

The fundamental problem being that they are more concerned with religion - either apologising for it or trying to show how much better ‘their own’ religion is - than with real live human beings.

In my opinion, you have to choose.

You must either defend the human being or you must defend Islam and religion. You can’t defend both because they are incompatible with and antithetical to each other.

Of course this doesn’t mean that people don’t have a right to religion or atheism. Of course they do but as a private affair.

Labelling millions of people as Muslims and collaborating with Islamic organisations as the German government is doing with its Islamic conferences only helps to hand over millions of often resisting people to the political Islamic movement. This despite the fact that according to the government’s own admission, the Islamic organisations at the annual conferences represent at best 10-15% of those it has deemed to be Muslims.

This type of politics ignores the distinction between the oppressed and oppressor and actually sees them as one and the same. It ignore the important distinction between Muslims and those deemed to be such and Islam and political Islam. It is politics that implies that people want to live the way they are forced to. That they actually deserve no better because it is ‘their own culture and religion’ imputing on innumerable people the most reactionary elements of culture and religion, which is that of the ruling class, parasitical imams and self-appointed ‘community leaders’.

And so, criticism of Islam is deemed racism; it is not.

And so rights, equality, integration are raised vis-à-vis religion rather than the human being. Since when has people’s integration meant the integration of their so called beliefs?

As I have said, whilst criticism of Islam and political Islam is an historical duty and necessity it has to be based within a politics that puts people first to have real meaning and affect real change.

It has to be done but for humanity’s sake.

In the face of this onslaught, secularism, universalism, citizenship rights, a humanity without labels and values worthy of 21st century humanity can only be defended via another transformative enlightenment by this century's avant-gardes. We must give no more concessions to religion and cultural relativism; we must no longer respect and tolerate inhuman ideals, values and practices. An uncompromising and shamelessly aggressive demand for secularism is only a minimum if we are to ensure that humanity is safeguarded. Today, more than ever, we are in need of the de-religionisation of society - a concerted battle against the religion industry, which is above the law, unregulated and never held accountable for its fatwas, murder and mayhem.

As Mansoor Hekmat, the late Marxist thinker said: 'It has been proved time and time again that pushing back religiosity and religious reaction is not possible except through unequivocal defence of human values against religion. It has been proved time and time again that preventing religious barbarism does not come about through bribing it and trying to give it a human face, but through the fight against reactionary religious beliefs and practices. What price should be paid... to realise that Islam and religion do not have a progressive, supportable faction?'"

"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365

not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the

many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers

were given. Satan - 10."

lets hope the world is taken over by Buddhism...........peace really means peace.....

"It is dangerous to be sincere unless you are also stupid."

- George Bernard Shaw (1856-1950)

Sorry Gypsy ... was a really long article and I was struggling when I thought I was maybe half way through it!

Bit of a ramble without a positive point, I thought.

I did 'clock' that bit about Muslims bonking for the world and likening it to the Italians (inference being Roman Catholics) who apparently no longer go for the big families.

Hopefully I will be dead before the world decides to be totally governed by either one religion or another. It never has, so ... hey! maybe I won't die! Hindus here I come! weeeeeeeeeeeeeee

I challenge everyone to read his biography and work.

At first, I felt like I was reading some KKK crap. Once I found out about him, I have some kind of clarity and understanding for his writting style and purpose.

As for the Canadian Islamic Congress human rights complaint:

The federal and British Columbia human rights complaints were still unresolved as of May 2008.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Steyn

I'm jealous of my Goldfish, he lives a perfect utopia.

Jesus said: "you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."John8:32

Let their be no compulsion in religion:Truth stands out clear from error.Quran2:2

Yes the author has the right to freedom of speech but just because he execises that right doesn't mean what he says is correct or even factual.

On the other hand - anyone who is offended by what someone has written has the right to confront and challenge the author publicly such as in a court of law.

The original article and the human rights hearing that result from it are a perfect example of a liberal democracy operating at its full potential.

I am sick of this place

so many things I want to say - where to start....

I guess I will start with the whole concept of Muslims are taking over the western world because they are procreating at a faster rate. (great plan by the way - j/k) The author almost insinuates this is a well coordinated and thought out plan/plot on behalf of Muslims everywhere. Then he constantly relates Muslims to Jihad and terrorism thus implying more Muslims = more terrorsits (or more places for terrorists to hide) ergo eventually the whole western world will be Muslim terrorists as western people will just simply become exinct.

Question 1: Can't you be western and Muslim? The author implies it is one or the other. To me Islam is a religion and the term westerner refers to a geographical region.

Questions 2: If Muslims bent on Jihad eventually take over the west then won't jihad become extinct along with the westerner?

I think this is a fanatic who is trying very hard to make an argument using half truths. He only presents a piece of the equation not the whole of it to justify his way of thinking.

THeBurj,

Be careful with what you are posting, it's just for your own good.

I can see you are still new here, so go first and read the rules of posting here, otherwise I'm affraid the administrators will have to ban you.

Take it easy

Qatari, I agree with that, as long as the way to present the issue was right, so there is no problems at all.

But again, will our arguments and discussions here be done in a right way?, I don't think so.

Peace.

Oooooh...those scary Muslims are going to take over our country. Just wondering if there are more Muslims in a democracy and they vote for a Muslim government (whatever that is), isn't that just fine? I mean, democracy and the will of the people and all that?

Anyway, instead of framing it as a freedom of speech question why not frame it the same way the legal argument was framed? The article would incite hatred...

And let's be honest - they didn't go and blow anything up. They went to court in a democracy - the way one should complain in a democracy right?

As the most famous person on the internet said : "All your base are belong to us"

I agree with britexpat, I vote that we pass on this as well.

We will never come up with a shared thoughts, and we will never be able to change everyone's opinion, the only thing will happen is more meaningless arguments, and useless fights.

Peace.

is only by chance and by choice.

by chance if you are born in a muslim family

choice well those who convert.

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Haven't we "discussed" religion enough this week. We'll get the same banter, so I vote that we pass on this!

I've actually got to run out for the evening, but I look forward to reading some opinions in the morning. :)

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