"..Insanity: you can bend and twist your Koran all you want. The bottom line is, The Niqab thing it's not mentioned in the Koran. end of story..."
I have already presented verse from Quran as Proof:
24:30–31
33:59
24:31
Secondly I even provided the interpretation of the Prophet and his companions with respect to this verse.
Thirdly I even proved from Quran (16:44) that the prophet was sent to explain the revelation so tha there is no room for misinterpretation.
Lastly there is a unanimous agreement of all leading scholar and 4 imams on this matter
Now till now you havent presented any proof, you havent provided any reference and now you are claiming that I am bending and twisting the meanings. Whereas the BURDEN OF PROOF lies on you.
Get out from the denial mode and have the guts to except the truth (even if you dont like it)
Also, Miss I would like you to watch this video and the following article:
http://www.islamicvoice.com/october.98/zakir.htm
Islam prescribes Hijab for both men and women (though there is a misconception that it is only for women) and also there are 6 criterias of Hijab which includes good moral conduct as well.
Request all to kindly go through either the video or the article and it will clarify all doubts regarding the Hijab inshallah.
Lastly there is no disagreement amongst the ulemas on the obligation for hijab; Only the extent of hijab covering for women is what is sometimes contested.
Some say that women need to cover entire body and some say that they need to cover entire body except their palms and face.
(Hijab needs to be observed in front of Ghair Mehrams only, this means that a muslim women is not required to maintain hijab in front of her father, father in law mother and the list of close relatives mentioned in Quran)
"...I have heard from many Muslim women that it is not state in the Quran that they are required to wear it. ..."
See there are some people who when faced with truth get into denial mode. Quran is there in all languages and anyone can buy a copy of it and read it for himself.
The clearest verse on the requirement of the hijab is surah 24:30–31, asking women to draw their khimār over their bosoms.[9][10]
And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their khimār over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. (Quran 24:31)
In the following verse, Muslim women are asked to draw their jilbab over them (when they go out), as a measure to distinguish themselves from others, so that they are not harassed. Surah 33:59 reads:[10]
Those who harass believing men and believing women undeservedly, bear (on themselves) a calumny and a grievous sin. O Prophet! Enjoin your wives, your daughters, and the wives of true believers that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad): That is most convenient, that they may be distinguished and not be harassed. [...] (Quran 33:58–59)
"....Also a child in my class actually said that its her Dad that wants her Mum to wear it, however when they travel outside Qatar she is allowed to show her face as 'no one will know her'. Which I find bizarre......"
Yes even I fond this bizarre, because muslim women should wear hijab to obey the commands of Allah (not for showing off piety to public)
"....Also quick question: Is it allowed to communicate with men you don't know on the internet in Islam??..."
hmm...I don't know the answer at present but will definitely get back once I am sure about the answer.
It's pretty simple. A woman should have the choice, no matter where she is and who she is, to either wear nor not to wear niqab. And both choices should be acceptable to all, without passing judgement on either. Right?
Now, from what I can tell, neither of the 2 women in the discussion have advocated this.
Regarding women communicating with men on the internet then we can do so, but the same rules apply to us as when we speak to them in person. IE:we avoid lewd conversations and flirting, we don't speak obscene and wicked speech or promote evil acts,etc. Bdw we can't speak this way with women either let alone men!!
I know I've posted similar to this before but let me contribute here:
Niqab as many Muslims know is a very highly debated topic even among the most pious of scholars. Some truly believe it's obligatory,and some that it's highly recommended. And then you have certain scholars who insist it was only for the wives of the Prophet and not just anyone.
Personally I am with the opinion of Sheikh Al Abani and a few other prominent scholars that is whilst it is a highly rewarding act it is not obligatory. And a woman who doesn't wear niqab is not inferior in her religion to a niqabi because a person's piety and superiority is for Allah alone to judge.
Even if you are to believe that niqab is obligatory it's still not for us to judge who is pious and better a Muslimah and who is not. Cos a woman who wears a niqab and then goes out and spreads gossip and calumnies about others or is an ungrateful wife who makes life for her husband and family difficult, will in no way be better than the lady who doesn't wear a niqab but who guards her tongue and does rightly by others.
Bottom line is a niqab if worn to please our Lord, and gain His reward, and with knowledge and understanding, will Insha Allah gain us some rewards but will certainly not guarantee us a sure place in Jannah. Our ultimate aboard is for God alone to know..Period.
Monkeys like to rub their nose in their own s hit hahahaha and he keeps doing that everyday on QL.
Basically he's a high school drop out who clearly does not understand English, guess he picked up a few words while people were throwing bananas at him in the zoo.
So monkey let me see if you can understand this: If you say an apple is not a banana, that should clearly imply that a banana is not an apple right?
Oops wait i think i confused him even more he's gonna cry now hahahahah.
Miss Mimi/MT: both have a point aganist you. GB your post abt none-Nigab women being impure and not following their religion was really not thuoght out comment. You really don't have to be right all the time (:
Im sure if you are a 'good Muslim' you can share what 'non-believers' would like to know and be a decent person...but I wouldn't expect that from you, and thats why I didn't ask you for any help in understanding Islam.
You are certainly not a very good example for your fellow great Muslims I'm afraid.
Its the manner in which you provide the links also which fair well know...not in a smarmy, sarcastic way, but a genuine, kind and caring way.
In your mind, I must not believe everything any one tells me but investigate on my own?
Wow, that means my teachers, professors and anyone I have ever met must be talking absolute rubbish because I didn't confirm and investigate everything ever said to me.
non believers hear a lot from here and there not knowing abt Islam and finding faults with a muslim so as a good muslim i have provided u with links where u can find full detailed information
I have heard from many Muslim women that it is not state in the Quran that they are required to wear it. Also a child in my class actually said that its her Dad that wants her Mum to wear it, however when they travel outside Qatar she is allowed to show her face as 'no one will know her'. Which I find bizarre.
Also quick question: Is it allowed to communicate with men you don't know on the internet in Islam??
"Niqabi women being fronted as a pinnacle of Islam & piety which is detrimental to non-niqab wearing Muslim women who are considered "not as Muslim""
Wearing Niqab is obligatory for muslim women,It has been prescribed in Islam and hence it is something which every muslim women should strive for.
"...Also, if wearing niqab wasn't associated with being the "perfect, pious woman" do you think as many women would choose to wear it?..."
So let me put it in this way that all muslim women who are considered to be an example/role models for other muslim women in Islam are the ones who wear Hijab; however NOT all Hijab wearing Muslim Women are examples because As I said Hijab is one aspect of Islam.
"...So Muslim women who choose not to wear niqab are not pure or following their religion properly?.."
PURE - We cant say;
Not following their religion properly: YES DEFINITELY
But you are saying "a lady who follows Islam by heart in a pure way" will not find excuses or reason to etc..........
So inevitably you are saying "a lady who doesn,t follow Islam by heart and in a pure way" must find reasons to avoid or look for any benefit to wear niqab?
Thus you suggest Muslim women who don't wear the niqab are not pure or following Islam by heart.
It's really quite simple, I don't know why you are finding, what you actually said, so hard to comprehend.
BG Mona IS muslim, how can you say she lacks knowledge about her own religion? If she can lack knowledge about her own religion, perhaps you don't know what you're talking about either.
miss mimi u have the same problem as mona lack of knowledge abt Islam following muslims n find fault with them wont help u much try to understand islam teachings or what islam says
"...Niqabi women being fronted as a pinnacle of Islam & piety which is detrimental to non-niqab wearing Muslim women who are considered "not as Muslim""
That surely is a weakness on the part of the non-niqabi women themselves..
I have no issues with people who do wear niqab, and fully support their right to wear it. However I do believe Mona made some valid points (or tried to make some valid points) about Niqabi women being fronted as a pinnacle of Islam & piety which is detrimental to non-niqab wearing Muslim women who are considered "not as Muslim" and I agree that part of human communication is through facial expressions, and by covering women you are taking away part of their ability to communicate effectively.
I also disagree with Hebah's assertions that wearing niqab takes away women's bad body image, would lessen plastic surgery and eating disorders. As, from what I've seen, there's loads of niqabi wearing women sitting at the plastic surgery centers waiting for botox and nose jobs and just as many forcing themselves not to eat.
The only valid point that Hebah makes (and actually it was the anchorman who made the point) is that the United States has the first amendment which allows freedom of expression and wearing niqab is a form of expression.
What I believe is anyone who doesn't wear niqab always assumes a lot of stuff. I did once upon a time!I imagined wearing niqab would make life very impossible and lonely. Today as a niqabi I can tell you that whilst I did have to make certain adjustments and sacrifices in my life and lifestyle, as a whole the niqab has done me more good than harm. Just the fact that I am doing it for my Lord itself is a by far a wonderful life enhancing feeling. And He, my Lord has never let me feel inferior to anyone despite my niqab!
Do we or do we not agree that Heba's choice to wear or not wear the Negab is her own right and business and that the out-come of such decisions is her problem and her burden alone?
miss mimi lets have a peaceful discussion today heba wears niqab ? does she not feel any damage n she clearly mentioned its by her choice no one forced her :)
I did listen to her properly. Basically all she said was she can wear niqab cause it's her choice. Mona actually discussed the damaging issues associated with wearing it, and forcing people to wear it.
Umm, actually I think Mona makes some valid points, however the anchor wouldn't let her speak. Hebah says nothing other than "this is my choice and I should be allowed to dress the way I choose." How can you argue against that in a country with the First Amendment?
I love how the anchor lets Hebah go on and on but interrupts Mona at every turn.
".......still doesn't give you the right to call make assumptions or interpert her views on her behalf ( coz according to you her views goes with the Non-Muslim therefore by default ......?..."
Let me give you an example:
Alcohol is haram in islam, but if someone drinks alcohol he doesnt become a non-muslim. However in this aspect his behaviour is similar to the behaviour of disbeleivers. Hope I am clear now...
Anyways I dont mean to offend anyone...even the comment which I made to mimi (the quotation) was in lighter vein...
However you calling me dishonest was what I did not like because I was not.
"...you can play and tamper with words all you want buttom line is you know exactly what you meant Sanity...."
I knew exactly what I meant, it is you who is putting words into my mouth. I even said while replying to mimi that 90 our of 100 people will make wrong assumption if they just watch the video without knowing about the personalities involved.
"..What she said was that she wishes to see it banned however will not support the French govt's decision...."
What she feels and says is her belief and on the basis of her belief and actions she will be judged, now whether she supports french government or not is secondary. French government wont ask her before banning.
Lastly, I am not afraid to call someone as non-muslim if he/she is doing kufr openly. So there is no need to search for hidden meaning when there is'nt, if I beleive in something I am not afraid to voice it.
What she said was that she wishes to see it banned however will not support the French govt's decision. he even called the french president and his govt racist and said she supports women's choice.
There are many things in life we wish to see happening or not happening, still doesn't give you the right to call make assumptions or interpert her views on her behalf ( coz according to you her views goes with the Non-Muslim therefore by default ......? you can play and tamper with words all you want buttom line is you know exactly what you meant Sanity.
"...Sanity are you really sane? Where did she say she supported banning the Negiab everywhere! this really shows either you didn't watch the vid or you haven't been paying enough attention...."
I request other QLers to please let us know whether what I said is mentioned in video or Not.
Marcos said that "...Sanity: again your dishonesrty is showing through the roof..."
To prove your above statement you quoted me:
"Now if someone has a view which does not conform to the islamic view in this matter and in fact is similar to view put forward by Islam bashers by default he will be assumed not to be a muslim. "
who ASSUMED her to be non-muslim ?? not me, but the person who posted the video on youtube. Thats why the tile said "...A women loses the debate with a muslim women .." Thats why mimi said the title is wrong.
So I think you are jsut jumping to conclusions, kindly read my posts with cool head and then reply
/: Sanity are you really sane? Where did she say she supported banning the Negiab everywhere! this really shows either you didn't watch the vid or you haven't been paying enough attention.
Sanity: again your dishonesrty is showing through the roof.
insanityOO7 said
/-a-t-/miss mimi ...
".....Which is supposed to mean what insanity?.."
The point is that Islamic view on hijab is very clear. Now if someone has a view which does not conform to the islamic view in this matter and in fact is similar to view put forward by Islam bashers by default he will be assumed not to be a muslim. This was with reference to what you had stated earlier that is
and you said this after watching the vid. so there was no room for assumptions because you already knew she was muslim yet you chose to make your own biased asumptions about her.
besides, had you seen the vid you would understand that Omna was actually in favore of muslim having the Hejab making her own choices in life however what she protested aganist was islamic women who are forced to wear it for example in Saudi and even over here in qatar.
Agree Britexpat - I originally assumed before I moved here and made good Muslim (Abaya/niqab wearing) friends, that woman were forced to wear it. Now I understand that most if not all Muslim women who wear it actually chose too and if given the choice not to would decline it quickly. They wear it for Allah.
".....So you're saying that because this woman doesn't agree with YOUR view of Islam, she isn't a Muslim?.."
I never said that.
As you yourself mentioned that the title of the video is wrong because according to you both parties debating are muslims.
Now the question is why the person who gave the title of the video put the title wrongly in the first place ? (And I am pretty sure that if you show the video to 100 people atleast 90 will WRONGLY assume that she is non-muslim)
The reason is simple, here we have a women talking against hijab and presenting the same arguments put forward by Non-muslims and Islam bashers.
(I did not post the video on youtube)
Hence, I never said whether she is a muslim or a non-muslim, this is a diferent debate altogether, what I said is that because of her anti islamic views on Hijab she is being perceived in that way....
and this is the reason why I used the famous quote:
A man is known by the company he keeps...
Also, I would like to say this in regards to the term you used "..YOUR view of Islam.."
My view of Islam is in accordance to what is written in Quran and Authentic Sunnah. IF you can prove from Quran and Sunnah that wearing Hijab is unislamic OR not obligatory then it will become MY VIEW. If you want you can open another thread and we can discuss it threadbare.
So you're saying that because this woman doesn't agree with YOUR view of Islam, she isn't a Muslim? So in reality your saying that Hebah is in fact wrong, because it isn't a choice. Therefore Mona won the debate.
The point is that Islamic view on hijab is very clear. Now if someone has a view which does not conform to the islamic view in this matter and in fact is similar to view put forward by Islam bashers by default he will be assumed not to be a muslim. This was with reference to what you had stated earlier that is:
"..Mona Eltahawy (whom I've met personally and is a brilliant woman) is actually Muslim..so the very title "woman loses the debate with Muslim women" is wrong".."
"..Mona Eltahawy (whom I've met personally and is a brilliant woman) is actually Muslim..so the very title "woman loses the debate with Muslim women" is wrong"
"..It's Heba's choice because she lives in a country where she is given the choice to dress as she pleases. For the vast majority, it is not their choice to make..."
I respectfully disagre, I think the for vast majority it is their choice to make, it is only for few countries like france, turkey etc. where women are forced to dress in a particular way...
there is a common misconception that MOST muslim women wear hijab because of being forced by muslim relatives and guardians; However, in reality the muslim women wear hijab to obey to the command of Allah.
"...That was one aspect of the debate. The other was France's decision to ban the niqab because of what Sarkozy terms 'modern slavery'...."
However the point is that most non-muslims just get entangled in the secondary issues related to hijab, marriage, extremism, fundamentalism, alochol, fatwas against xyz and other media highlighted issues and needless discussions and knee jerk reactions accompanied with them.
Because of this they get repulsed and dont try to understand the primary issue that is the basics of Islam like beleif in oneness of God, belief in after life, day of judgement etc. and hence fail to realize the beauty of Islam.
I think if anyone makes conscious effort to understand the basics of Islam first, then he will be in a better position to undertsand and appreciate the islamic viewpoint on modesty, hijab etc.
Just to point out (I'm still trying to watch the video as it's taking forever to load) Mona Eltahawy (whom I've met personally and is a brilliant woman) is actually Muslim, so the very title "woman loses the debate with Muslim women" is wrong.
I would disagree. Heba ticked all the boxes regarding security etc.
France has the motto - Liberté, égalité, fraternité. Threfore each person should be allowed to have choice of he/she dresses as long as it does not harm society. The issue that the Niqab is repressive is OUR assumption. The women will tell you otherwise.
That was one aspect of the debate. The other was France's decision to ban the niqab because of what Sarkozy terms 'modern slavery'. I agree the liberal woman was self-righteous and less tolerant, but from the broader perspective I think her point is the more valid.
I like how Heba didn't ever try to cut Mona off and was very patient and civilised. I personally disagree with the ban in France as I believe everyone has a right to dress how they like and what they feel comfortable in.
I really liked Heba she is very intelligent ,her statement was very logic ,although I don't like Neqab but I like how she explains her point of view I'm with hijab however .remember we can not legislate laws because somebody thinks hhhhhh very sharp lady I admire her.
I respectfully disagree. It's Heba's choice because she lives in a country where she is given the choice to dress as she pleases. For the vast majority, it is not their choice to make.
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"..Insanity: you can bend and twist your Koran all you want. The bottom line is, The Niqab thing it's not mentioned in the Koran. end of story..."
I have already presented verse from Quran as Proof:
24:30–31
33:59
24:31
Secondly I even provided the interpretation of the Prophet and his companions with respect to this verse.
Thirdly I even proved from Quran (16:44) that the prophet was sent to explain the revelation so tha there is no room for misinterpretation.
Lastly there is a unanimous agreement of all leading scholar and 4 imams on this matter
Now till now you havent presented any proof, you havent provided any reference and now you are claiming that I am bending and twisting the meanings. Whereas the BURDEN OF PROOF lies on you.
Get out from the denial mode and have the guts to except the truth (even if you dont like it)
Insanity: you can bend and twist your Koran all you want. The bottom line is, The Niqab thing it's not mentioned in the Koran. end of story.
Also, Miss I would like you to watch this video and the following article:
http://www.islamicvoice.com/october.98/zakir.htm
Islam prescribes Hijab for both men and women (though there is a misconception that it is only for women) and also there are 6 criterias of Hijab which includes good moral conduct as well.
Request all to kindly go through either the video or the article and it will clarify all doubts regarding the Hijab inshallah.
Lastly there is no disagreement amongst the ulemas on the obligation for hijab; Only the extent of hijab covering for women is what is sometimes contested.
Some say that women need to cover entire body and some say that they need to cover entire body except their palms and face.
(Hijab needs to be observed in front of Ghair Mehrams only, this means that a muslim women is not required to maintain hijab in front of her father, father in law mother and the list of close relatives mentioned in Quran)
"...So you obviously wear the niqab insanity?..."
Kindly check my profile...
"...I have heard from many Muslim women that it is not state in the Quran that they are required to wear it. ..."
See there are some people who when faced with truth get into denial mode. Quran is there in all languages and anyone can buy a copy of it and read it for himself.
The clearest verse on the requirement of the hijab is surah 24:30–31, asking women to draw their khimār over their bosoms.[9][10]
And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their khimār over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. (Quran 24:31)
In the following verse, Muslim women are asked to draw their jilbab over them (when they go out), as a measure to distinguish themselves from others, so that they are not harassed. Surah 33:59 reads:[10]
Those who harass believing men and believing women undeservedly, bear (on themselves) a calumny and a grievous sin. O Prophet! Enjoin your wives, your daughters, and the wives of true believers that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad): That is most convenient, that they may be distinguished and not be harassed. [...] (Quran 33:58–59)
"....Also a child in my class actually said that its her Dad that wants her Mum to wear it, however when they travel outside Qatar she is allowed to show her face as 'no one will know her'. Which I find bizarre......"
Yes even I fond this bizarre, because muslim women should wear hijab to obey the commands of Allah (not for showing off piety to public)
"....Also quick question: Is it allowed to communicate with men you don't know on the internet in Islam??..."
hmm...I don't know the answer at present but will definitely get back once I am sure about the answer.
It's pretty simple. A woman should have the choice, no matter where she is and who she is, to either wear nor not to wear niqab. And both choices should be acceptable to all, without passing judgement on either. Right?
Now, from what I can tell, neither of the 2 women in the discussion have advocated this.
THanks for the clarification Fathima :)
Regarding women communicating with men on the internet then we can do so, but the same rules apply to us as when we speak to them in person. IE:we avoid lewd conversations and flirting, we don't speak obscene and wicked speech or promote evil acts,etc. Bdw we can't speak this way with women either let alone men!!
here is my wild cat any update on the skeleton or body :(
MT give him time to google something...plus i think he ran out of napkins...and no not the ones to wipe his tears. :P
now wld u mind if i ask u sumthing as a good non believer
ah so you are actually a monkey...not a person behind a computer screen with a Monkey profile pic...that explains A LOT lol!!
But yeah BG teachers do get confused sometimes!!
I love the picture you portray of us teachers though.....super human, without mistakes and magic powers!
brilliant! I guess you think we live at school, read books and plan every weekday night and research all weekend! :P
I know I've posted similar to this before but let me contribute here:
Niqab as many Muslims know is a very highly debated topic even among the most pious of scholars. Some truly believe it's obligatory,and some that it's highly recommended. And then you have certain scholars who insist it was only for the wives of the Prophet and not just anyone.
Personally I am with the opinion of Sheikh Al Abani and a few other prominent scholars that is whilst it is a highly rewarding act it is not obligatory. And a woman who doesn't wear niqab is not inferior in her religion to a niqabi because a person's piety and superiority is for Allah alone to judge.
Even if you are to believe that niqab is obligatory it's still not for us to judge who is pious and better a Muslimah and who is not. Cos a woman who wears a niqab and then goes out and spreads gossip and calumnies about others or is an ungrateful wife who makes life for her husband and family difficult, will in no way be better than the lady who doesn't wear a niqab but who guards her tongue and does rightly by others.
Bottom line is a niqab if worn to please our Lord, and gain His reward, and with knowledge and understanding, will Insha Allah gain us some rewards but will certainly not guarantee us a sure place in Jannah. Our ultimate aboard is for God alone to know..Period.
Monkeys like to rub their nose in their own s hit hahahaha and he keeps doing that everyday on QL.
Basically he's a high school drop out who clearly does not understand English, guess he picked up a few words while people were throwing bananas at him in the zoo.
So monkey let me see if you can understand this: If you say an apple is not a banana, that should clearly imply that a banana is not an apple right?
Oops wait i think i confused him even more he's gonna cry now hahahahah.
atleast korly is better than u , she speaks better English !
MT again confused when the monkey ( animal ) n then great person ( thanks ) hahaha (confused teacher )
Miss Mimi/MT: both have a point aganist you. GB your post abt none-Nigab women being impure and not following their religion was really not thuoght out comment. You really don't have to be right all the time (:
ur always welcome its my pleasure
When the monkey knows he is wrong he resorts to insults.....great person!
Thanks for the permission.
even ur here 24/ 7 u have a proper track of it u like stalking me , i m fine with it
I don't have to live at your home.
You are on here just about 24/7. Of course I know you well.
Walked right into that one, didn't you?
MN, according BG, no one else is ever right about anything.
Get used to it:-)
MN now i need to ask u again to show where i talked abt non niqab women
eh????
LOL
resign from the teachers designation u might understand
yip...think its maybe a good thing that I can't understand the Monkey!! :)
yes u stay at my home or ard me 24/ 7 to see what i practice n what not or did u " hear" "hear" "hear" it from MT
Its like I have said before:
BG certainly DOES NOT practice what he preaches.
For all his "what Muslims should do" - his actions show his hypocrisy
MT when i ask any 1 simple question ur replies are
"who cares" - so no need to be afraid i m providing u with links
hahahaha wonderful
again...I can't understand your broken English to reply. sorry.
again...I can't understand your broken English to reply. sorry.
Im sure if you are a 'good Muslim' you can share what 'non-believers' would like to know and be a decent person...but I wouldn't expect that from you, and thats why I didn't ask you for any help in understanding Islam.
You are certainly not a very good example for your fellow great Muslims I'm afraid.
Its the manner in which you provide the links also which fair well know...not in a smarmy, sarcastic way, but a genuine, kind and caring way.
Koyly if u r in a physics class n teacher teaching biology off course he must b rubbish
"MT there lies the problem u have heard , why always hear try to understand on ur own"
Read more: http://www.qatarliving.com/node/2780863#new#ixzz1r4cGkhGS
In your mind, I must not believe everything any one tells me but investigate on my own?
Wow, that means my teachers, professors and anyone I have ever met must be talking absolute rubbish because I didn't confirm and investigate everything ever said to me.
non believers hear a lot from here and there not knowing abt Islam and finding faults with a muslim so as a good muslim i have provided u with links where u can find full detailed information
Aren't Muslims meant to help spread the word and help the 'non-believers' to understand???
shame on you BG!
Thankfully I'm not asking you dear...I was asking insanity so don't stress yourself out about it :)
just smile :D
BG speak in simple english :
BG:ok
BG : browse http://www.inter-islam.org/
http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/index.php
try to read n understand Islam from ur own instead of listening n hearing stuff
sorry BG I really can't understand your broken English to reply!
MT there lies the problem u have heard , why always hear try to understand on ur own
n one suggestion from the cute monkey understand Islam
So you obviously wear the niqab insanity?
I have heard from many Muslim women that it is not state in the Quran that they are required to wear it. Also a child in my class actually said that its her Dad that wants her Mum to wear it, however when they travel outside Qatar she is allowed to show her face as 'no one will know her'. Which I find bizarre.
Also quick question: Is it allowed to communicate with men you don't know on the internet in Islam??
n i never suggested anything but like mona wants to force heeba u both r doing the same u want me to forcefully agree to ur vice versa statements
"Niqabi women being fronted as a pinnacle of Islam & piety which is detrimental to non-niqab wearing Muslim women who are considered "not as Muslim""
Wearing Niqab is obligatory for muslim women,It has been prescribed in Islam and hence it is something which every muslim women should strive for.
"...Also, if wearing niqab wasn't associated with being the "perfect, pious woman" do you think as many women would choose to wear it?..."
So let me put it in this way that all muslim women who are considered to be an example/role models for other muslim women in Islam are the ones who wear Hijab; however NOT all Hijab wearing Muslim Women are examples because As I said Hijab is one aspect of Islam.
"...So Muslim women who choose not to wear niqab are not pure or following their religion properly?.."
PURE - We cant say;
Not following their religion properly: YES DEFINITELY
my reply was for those who think niqab is a damage
But you are saying "a lady who follows Islam by heart in a pure way" will not find excuses or reason to etc..........
So inevitably you are saying "a lady who doesn,t follow Islam by heart and in a pure way" must find reasons to avoid or look for any benefit to wear niqab?
Thus you suggest Muslim women who don't wear the niqab are not pure or following Islam by heart.
It's really quite simple, I don't know why you are finding, what you actually said, so hard to comprehend.
according to u my dear not me
You do realize every time you make a post BG you are proving Mona right?
if she had she wldnt debate with heeba at the first place n support the niqab ban its that simple
BG Mona IS muslim, how can you say she lacks knowledge about her own religion? If she can lack knowledge about her own religion, perhaps you don't know what you're talking about either.
miss mimi my topic was on the ones who wear hijab they dont do it for any benefit purpose :) or they dont think of any damage
Babu, simply it's called difference of opinion.
miss mimi u have the same problem as mona lack of knowledge abt Islam following muslims n find fault with them wont help u much try to understand islam teachings or what islam says
No you didn't BG, you just said they don't follow it by heart and in a pure way.
Everyone is weak to criticism Brit.
"...Niqabi women being fronted as a pinnacle of Islam & piety which is detrimental to non-niqab wearing Muslim women who are considered "not as Muslim""
That surely is a weakness on the part of the non-niqabi women themselves..
lets try to read again
a lady who follows Islam by heart in a pure way will not find excuses or reason to avoid or look for any benefit to wear niqab
i never said the ones not wearing dont follow islam
not necessary as i didnt mention she doesn't follow islam
"a lady who follows Islam by heart in a pure way will not find excuses or reason to avoid or look for any benefit to wear niqab"
so vice a versa, only women who don't follow Islam by heart in a pure way will find excuses or reason to avoid wearing niqab.
show me where i stated this wordings
So Muslim women who choose not to wear niqab are not pure or following their religion properly?
a lady who follows Islam by heart in a pure way will not find excuses or reason to avoid or look for any benefit to wear niqab
Yes, there are many women who wear it because they want to, but there are also many others who are forced.
Also, if wearing niqab wasn't associated with being the "perfect, pious woman" do you think as many women would choose to wear it?
heba did agree it was her own decision there r a lot more who wear according to their wish, even at my home its their own decision we dont force them
So you believe that there is no such thing as women forced to wear niqab? I have to disagree with you.
one point abt forcing women to wear niqab
Which statements are those BG?
well mona has made few wrong statements too u see from islamic point of view
I have no issues with people who do wear niqab, and fully support their right to wear it. However I do believe Mona made some valid points (or tried to make some valid points) about Niqabi women being fronted as a pinnacle of Islam & piety which is detrimental to non-niqab wearing Muslim women who are considered "not as Muslim" and I agree that part of human communication is through facial expressions, and by covering women you are taking away part of their ability to communicate effectively.
I also disagree with Hebah's assertions that wearing niqab takes away women's bad body image, would lessen plastic surgery and eating disorders. As, from what I've seen, there's loads of niqabi wearing women sitting at the plastic surgery centers waiting for botox and nose jobs and just as many forcing themselves not to eat.
The only valid point that Hebah makes (and actually it was the anchorman who made the point) is that the United States has the first amendment which allows freedom of expression and wearing niqab is a form of expression.
i hope miss mimi agrees with that
agree let her wear the niqab n live her life
What I believe is anyone who doesn't wear niqab always assumes a lot of stuff. I did once upon a time!I imagined wearing niqab would make life very impossible and lonely. Today as a niqabi I can tell you that whilst I did have to make certain adjustments and sacrifices in my life and lifestyle, as a whole the niqab has done me more good than harm. Just the fact that I am doing it for my Lord itself is a by far a wonderful life enhancing feeling. And He, my Lord has never let me feel inferior to anyone despite my niqab!
Do we or do we not agree that Heba's choice to wear or not wear the Negab is her own right and business and that the out-come of such decisions is her problem and her burden alone?
what damage mimi - loss of job ?
It is all about choice Brit. Mona doesn't say it isn't. What she says is that the choice to wear niqab is damaging to women, for many reasons.
Surely it's all about choice. I know many women who choose not to work. They don't see it as damaging to their life or future.
"...she no longer works because she chooses to wear the niqab. So is being unemployable not damaging?.."
1) A Hijab wearing women can get employment in certain jobs where hijab is not a hinderance for her
2) She can work from home/freelance (internet has opened many such options)
Lastly, for muslims the fianancial responsibility of the family rests with the husband/guardian. So it is upto the women whether to work or not.
if it was damaging she wld have choose betwen niqab n job n she has sumone to take care of might be her dad or husband
Yes, she says she does. However as Mona pointed out, she no longer works because she chooses to wear the niqab. So is being unemployable not damaging?
miss mimi lets have a peaceful discussion today heba wears niqab ? does she not feel any damage n she clearly mentioned its by her choice no one forced her :)
I did listen to her properly. Basically all she said was she can wear niqab cause it's her choice. Mona actually discussed the damaging issues associated with wearing it, and forcing people to wear it.
n i kindly request u to hear heba properly again it will help us
can u check last 15 secs only heba got where as mona was going on blaberring n u will always find fault with the right one
Mona spoke when it was her turn. Hebah doesn't allow Mona to speak when it's her turn.
coz mona doesnt allow heba to speak once she begins her blah blah non sense
Umm, actually I think Mona makes some valid points, however the anchor wouldn't let her speak. Hebah says nothing other than "this is my choice and I should be allowed to dress the way I choose." How can you argue against that in a country with the First Amendment?
I love how the anchor lets Hebah go on and on but interrupts Mona at every turn.
".......still doesn't give you the right to call make assumptions or interpert her views on her behalf ( coz according to you her views goes with the Non-Muslim therefore by default ......?..."
Let me give you an example:
Alcohol is haram in islam, but if someone drinks alcohol he doesnt become a non-muslim. However in this aspect his behaviour is similar to the behaviour of disbeleivers. Hope I am clear now...
Anyways I dont mean to offend anyone...even the comment which I made to mimi (the quotation) was in lighter vein...
However you calling me dishonest was what I did not like because I was not.
"...you can play and tamper with words all you want buttom line is you know exactly what you meant Sanity...."
I knew exactly what I meant, it is you who is putting words into my mouth. I even said while replying to mimi that 90 our of 100 people will make wrong assumption if they just watch the video without knowing about the personalities involved.
"..What she said was that she wishes to see it banned however will not support the French govt's decision...."
What she feels and says is her belief and on the basis of her belief and actions she will be judged, now whether she supports french government or not is secondary. French government wont ask her before banning.
Lastly, I am not afraid to call someone as non-muslim if he/she is doing kufr openly. So there is no need to search for hidden meaning when there is'nt, if I beleive in something I am not afraid to voice it.
What she said was that she wishes to see it banned however will not support the French govt's decision. he even called the french president and his govt racist and said she supports women's choice.
There are many things in life we wish to see happening or not happening, still doesn't give you the right to call make assumptions or interpert her views on her behalf ( coz according to you her views goes with the Non-Muslim therefore by default ......? you can play and tamper with words all you want buttom line is you know exactly what you meant Sanity.
thanks !!!
Marco, she does say she wants the ban on niqab extended worldwide. I'm still trying to watch the whole video, but I've gotten that far. ;)
"...Sanity are you really sane? Where did she say she supported banning the Negiab everywhere! this really shows either you didn't watch the vid or you haven't been paying enough attention...."
I request other QLers to please let us know whether what I said is mentioned in video or Not.
Marcos said that "...Sanity: again your dishonesrty is showing through the roof..."
To prove your above statement you quoted me:
"Now if someone has a view which does not conform to the islamic view in this matter and in fact is similar to view put forward by Islam bashers by default he will be assumed not to be a muslim. "
who ASSUMED her to be non-muslim ?? not me, but the person who posted the video on youtube. Thats why the tile said "...A women loses the debate with a muslim women .." Thats why mimi said the title is wrong.
So I think you are jsut jumping to conclusions, kindly read my posts with cool head and then reply
A religious person follows up with her / his practice and others just follow up with religious persons , in day to day life.
/: Sanity are you really sane? Where did she say she supported banning the Negiab everywhere! this really shows either you didn't watch the vid or you haven't been paying enough attention.
"..Sanity: If you think Mona was arguing aganist the Hejab, then you haven't watched the Vid. sorry..."
As mentioned in the video, Mona Eltahawy wants the ban extended everywhere(including france)
she "..detest the niqab and detest the face veil.."
& she "...she supports banning it everywhere.."
so now tell me if mona was against niqab or for it.
Sanity: again your dishonesrty is showing through the roof.
insanityOO7 said
/-a-t-/miss mimi ...
".....Which is supposed to mean what insanity?.."
The point is that Islamic view on hijab is very clear. Now if someone has a view which does not conform to the islamic view in this matter and in fact is similar to view put forward by Islam bashers by default he will be assumed not to be a muslim. This was with reference to what you had stated earlier that is
and you said this after watching the vid. so there was no room for assumptions because you already knew she was muslim yet you chose to make your own biased asumptions about her.
besides, had you seen the vid you would understand that Omna was actually in favore of muslim having the Hejab making her own choices in life however what she protested aganist was islamic women who are forced to wear it for example in Saudi and even over here in qatar.
Agree Britexpat - I originally assumed before I moved here and made good Muslim (Abaya/niqab wearing) friends, that woman were forced to wear it. Now I understand that most if not all Muslim women who wear it actually chose too and if given the choice not to would decline it quickly. They wear it for Allah.
"........insanityOO7: There is a lot of intellectual dishonesty going on in your posts.........."
Point one instance..
"...what I find even more odd is how quick you are in declaring people, and in this particular case " Mona"
not-Muslim, just because she happened to voice a difrerent opinion than yours?.."
Quote me from my posts, (don't put words into my mouth).
haysss..
very long to read..
Sanity: If you think Mona was arguing aganist the Hejab, then you haven't watched the Vid. sorry.
insanityOO7: There is a lot of intellectual dishonesty going on in your posts.
what I find even more odd is how quick you are in declaring people, and in this particular case " Mona"
not-Muslim, just because she happened to voice a difrerent opinion than yours?
".....So you're saying that because this woman doesn't agree with YOUR view of Islam, she isn't a Muslim?.."
I never said that.
As you yourself mentioned that the title of the video is wrong because according to you both parties debating are muslims.
Now the question is why the person who gave the title of the video put the title wrongly in the first place ? (And I am pretty sure that if you show the video to 100 people atleast 90 will WRONGLY assume that she is non-muslim)
The reason is simple, here we have a women talking against hijab and presenting the same arguments put forward by Non-muslims and Islam bashers.
(I did not post the video on youtube)
Hence, I never said whether she is a muslim or a non-muslim, this is a diferent debate altogether, what I said is that because of her anti islamic views on Hijab she is being perceived in that way....
and this is the reason why I used the famous quote:
A man is known by the company he keeps...
Also, I would like to say this in regards to the term you used "..YOUR view of Islam.."
My view of Islam is in accordance to what is written in Quran and Authentic Sunnah. IF you can prove from Quran and Sunnah that wearing Hijab is unislamic OR not obligatory then it will become MY VIEW. If you want you can open another thread and we can discuss it threadbare.
So you're saying that because this woman doesn't agree with YOUR view of Islam, she isn't a Muslim? So in reality your saying that Hebah is in fact wrong, because it isn't a choice. Therefore Mona won the debate.
".....Which is supposed to mean what insanity?.."
The point is that Islamic view on hijab is very clear. Now if someone has a view which does not conform to the islamic view in this matter and in fact is similar to view put forward by Islam bashers by default he will be assumed not to be a muslim. This was with reference to what you had stated earlier that is:
"..Mona Eltahawy (whom I've met personally and is a brilliant woman) is actually Muslim..so the very title "woman loses the debate with Muslim women" is wrong".."
If this is a religious debate it should be posted in the Religion section, what is it doing here?
Which is supposed to mean what insanity?
"..Mona Eltahawy (whom I've met personally and is a brilliant woman) is actually Muslim..so the very title "woman loses the debate with Muslim women" is wrong"
A woMAN is known by the company sHE keeps LoL
@worxpace
"..It's Heba's choice because she lives in a country where she is given the choice to dress as she pleases. For the vast majority, it is not their choice to make..."
I respectfully disagre, I think the for vast majority it is their choice to make, it is only for few countries like france, turkey etc. where women are forced to dress in a particular way...
there is a common misconception that MOST muslim women wear hijab because of being forced by muslim relatives and guardians; However, in reality the muslim women wear hijab to obey to the command of Allah.
"...That was one aspect of the debate. The other was France's decision to ban the niqab because of what Sarkozy terms 'modern slavery'...."
However the point is that most non-muslims just get entangled in the secondary issues related to hijab, marriage, extremism, fundamentalism, alochol, fatwas against xyz and other media highlighted issues and needless discussions and knee jerk reactions accompanied with them.
Because of this they get repulsed and dont try to understand the primary issue that is the basics of Islam like beleif in oneness of God, belief in after life, day of judgement etc. and hence fail to realize the beauty of Islam.
I think if anyone makes conscious effort to understand the basics of Islam first, then he will be in a better position to undertsand and appreciate the islamic viewpoint on modesty, hijab etc.
Just to point out (I'm still trying to watch the video as it's taking forever to load) Mona Eltahawy (whom I've met personally and is a brilliant woman) is actually Muslim, so the very title "woman loses the debate with Muslim women" is wrong.
I would disagree. Heba ticked all the boxes regarding security etc.
France has the motto - Liberté, égalité, fraternité. Threfore each person should be allowed to have choice of he/she dresses as long as it does not harm society. The issue that the Niqab is repressive is OUR assumption. The women will tell you otherwise.
I had seent his video just 2-3 days back and yes..hats off the the lady in the veil.
Also, request QL'ers to read this article as well, it is in the same context:
http://www.islam101.com/women/naheed.html
Truth always prevails !!!
That was one aspect of the debate. The other was France's decision to ban the niqab because of what Sarkozy terms 'modern slavery'. I agree the liberal woman was self-righteous and less tolerant, but from the broader perspective I think her point is the more valid.
I'm against niqab but no against a woman's choice to wear it. Liked the debate, specially how the presenter facilitated it.
It's all about choice, and Heba advocates CHOICE...to wear it or not to wear it.
I like how Heba didn't ever try to cut Mona off and was very patient and civilised. I personally disagree with the ban in France as I believe everyone has a right to dress how they like and what they feel comfortable in.
The discussion was about two ladies in the USA and their choice.
Heba came across as accomodating where as the other lady just wanted to "impose"..
I really liked Heba she is very intelligent ,her statement was very logic ,although I don't like Neqab but I like how she explains her point of view I'm with hijab however .remember we can not legislate laws because somebody thinks hhhhhh very sharp lady I admire her.
I respectfully disagree. It's Heba's choice because she lives in a country where she is given the choice to dress as she pleases. For the vast majority, it is not their choice to make.
Well done Heba. At the end of the day its all about freedom of choice. I hope the scaremongers will now take a break..
Heba totally creamed her and not surprising cos she(Mona) clearly lacked facts and reasoning.
Hebah follows 'religion' and Mona follows Hebah.
My vote goes for the woman in the veil.
The woman in hijab wins. Although I do not like hijab , her argument is right,IMHO.
It's difference of opinion only and Mona's debating immaturely!
more than 10 min... not worth it.
can anyone summaries?
I understand from the debate both women are muslims...so its again what one believes in.