Having Children without Marriage is .... !!!

My appology for misunderstaing your posts ... it's true that was the relfection i was getting ...

Cheers !

--"Live amongst people in such a manner that if you die they weep over you and if you are alive they crave for your company" Imam Ali(AS)

I had a big smile on my face after bellowing a throaty guffaw. Said in fun, jest and humour not with anger or attitude. Thats the problem of reading on the net. Sorry, should have added LOL and plenty of :-) & :D to my last post.

I don't go to mythical places with strange men.

-- Douglas Adams, The Long Dark Tea-Time of the Soul.

There was also one thread posted by Gypsy regarding Importance of Marriage .... there seems to be a very close link between these two threads ?

There is no speed of Drakness since light is a source coming from the Sun, one can calculate the SPEED of ligt ;-)

Thas what i think !!!

I have noticed you seems to have some sort of ATITUDE problem while posting a thread in the Forum ...

Please try to be a positive person so everyone respects you !!

--"Live amongst people in such a manner that if you die they weep over you and if you are alive they crave for your company" Imam Ali(AS)

Eventhough U need to maintain peace in measuring things...

Of Course we all know the method of measurements... like meassuring things... such as Kilo for weight, Liter/Oz for liquid, Minute for time, meter for length... etc...

Do U know how to measure a Personality? --- through his mouth, writings, dicipline and chracter...

Therefore; we can say that peaceful words; reflects peaceful personalities, which creates peaceful societies...

ALWAYS BE SUPPORTIVE AND PART OF PEACEFUL SOCIETY,

Thats some good sh*t you're smoking! Please share. Lets all make up stuff.

I don't go to mythical places with strange men.

-- Douglas Adams, The Long Dark Tea-Time of the Soul.

Oh good grief!!

Peaceful speed is better for everyone;

I'm Answering to your Question here away from the context; but since u have asked for it, therefore; I'm answering here;

First of all I would like to mention that their is no such thing as Speed of Darkness... But there is another perspective to your question and which tells us the speed of darkness; if still u want to know the speed of darkness then it's also varries with the speed of Light...

if their is no light associated with darkness then the speed would be ZERO "0" but if u enter the light into the darkness; it goes away with the speed of light comes in, which is 299792.458 KM/Second; in order to calulate the speed the Exsistence of light is essential; Only a Light can Speed Away The Darkness; so, u can say that "The Speed of Darkness is Exactly Equal to the Speed of the Light.

light goes away as fast as it comes

Furthrmore; the speed of light varries with the intensity of the gravitational field in th O-Zone's Black Hole... it is calulated that the speed of light is 299792.458 Killo Meter per Second;

Note: 1400 years ago it was stated in the Quran (Koran, the book of Islam) that angels travel in one day the same distance that the moon travels in 1000 lunar years, that is, 12000 Lunar Orbits / Earth Day. Outside the gravitational field of the sun 12000 Lunar Orbits / Earth Day turned out to be our local speed of light!!!

This definition is independent of direction and common to all observers: An observer near a black hole, for example, sees the speed of light outside gravitational fields a zillion km/s but still equal to 12000 Lunar Orbits;

You are welcome ... yes i would like to know what is the speed of darkness ;-)

--"Live amongst people in such a manner that if you die they weep over you and if you are alive they crave for your company" Imam Ali(AS)

Peaceful light cools down the darkness in human's mind -- .. and if U think peacefully, U can find answers to any type of questions rises in front of U... U don't need to be a rocket scientist to answer any question... Only U need a logically peaceful mind...; R U Ready to Write down the answer -- Speed of Darkness is the same as speed of Light -- Do U know Y?

Do U Know

1. What is the Meaning of Question?

2. To whome should U ask a Question?

3. Who has the authority to Answer?

Peace for peace lovers and for those too who hate us... I think now it's time to jump in... I was reading your selfmade Idiological discussions, based on your own theories and point of views... but none of u have explained Y u believe in what u r saying...?

At least we learn to live above our differences, respecting each other, living with each other, not necessarily loving each other, standing high with heads lifted up ready to explain & protect our beliefs & opinions without the need to cross lines.

This whole life is nothing but a short bridge, not matter how long it may seem. It is the manner in which we cross this bridge, that will determine the way we will be walking on the other end!

"Be strong but not arrogant

Be modest but not weak"

S.H

Defintely. I was actually thinking of myself when I wrote that. :D

"You don't have to like me for who I am but we'll see what you're made of by what you make of me." Ani Difranco

This means that Shua was right:

"you are part of the human race gypsy, So the same goes for you..."

"Be strong but not arrogant

Be modest but not weak"

S.H

Cool. Can't complain there. For the record I think your wrong to. :D

"You don't have to like me for who I am but we'll see what you're made of by what you make of me." Ani Difranco

I am accepting you no matter how wrong you are!

No hard feelings! I am not attacking you here! I am just stating a fact!

:-)

"Be strong but not arrogant

Be modest but not weak"

S.H

Mrs. You have never proven me wrong. I keep asking you to back up your statements and you never do. Anyway, I keep proving you wrong and you never admit it.

"You don't have to like me for who I am but we'll see what you're made of by what you make of me." Ani Difranco

See? It is not that difficult to accept human mistakes & live with them!

"Be strong but not arrogant

Be modest but not weak"

S.H

u know Mrs that you sound soooooooooooooooooooooo

pompous and arrogant.... I am laughing my head off.

u know Mrs that you sound soooooooooooooooooooooo

pompous and arrogant.... I am laughing my head off.

with all the amount of wrong you have. You are 1 of the most people who refuse to confess that you are wrong. I have proven you wrong many times, but your usual reply would be: "you have proven nothing"

Even though, I have accepted you...just to prove to you that humans can live with other (wrong) humans!

"Be strong but not arrogant

Be modest but not weak"

S.H

I meant the ENTIRE human race is in its infancy (at least in terms of a planets lifespan)....and we do bicker like children....I really hope we do grow up one day....BEFORE we blow oursleves and/or our planet up that is.

Stay safe all.

Perfection does not exist. The question therefore, is: what level of imperfection are we willing to settle for?

Yeah Ragna its about time i grew up

Well to just give my remarks on what has been asked by Speed

According to me if ur a part of the religion which professes against such kind of pre marital behaviour, then u have to ask for forgiveness.

God created us knowing our shortcomings, he sure can forgive us for our mistakes.

But

In some countrys the girl who has been raped forced to marry the rapist

Can this make the earlier rape legal

of course no, the rapist has to be punished and not given a gift for his actions

You have my sincere apologies Speed for totally derailing the thread....now to adress YOUR question.

I would like to present 2 scenarios if you guys would please indulge me....BEFORE anyone jumps down my throat, I am NOT saying this happens all the time, but i'm trying to illustrate a point:

A) child is born to a loving household where the parents love each other and love the child and shower it with affection and security, but they are NOT married.

b) child is born to a married couple who bicker all the time, almost hate each other, were not planning on the birth, and will neglect or heaven forbid abuse the child.

Which scenarion is preferable?

Now must people who care about the child's well being would obviously pick scenario A....does that mean marriage is not important? at all? or is it important, but not THE most important thing?

I don't claim to have the answers, this is just food for thought. But imho, LOVE is the most important factor (parents between each other & between them and the child), and not the piece of paper which says they are legally married.

Stay safe all.

Perfection does not exist. The question therefore, is: what level of imperfection are we willing to settle for?

Oh I don't have to be right Shubai, you just have to prove me wrong. So for no one here has offered me any proof that what I say is wrong.

"You don't have to like me for who I am but we'll see what you're made of by what you make of me." Ani Difranco

you are part of the human race gypsy

So the same goes for you and i guess all ofus are aware of this more than u will ever know

so pls dont get offended

Well slowly but surely we are overcoming a lot of our flaws. Perhaps someday we will be able to live comfortably with people who don't think the same as us.

"You don't have to like me for who I am but we'll see what you're made of by what you make of me." Ani Difranco

I keep hoping that one day we will rise above it all as a species, but i'm not banking on it =(

Stay safe all.

Perfection does not exist. The question therefore, is: what level of imperfection are we willing to settle for?

Ragna, you are forgetting the human need to always be right. You can't tell anyone their wrong or they get offended.

"You should try living by my rules for a day nobody would die and there'd be lots of stuff to say." Ani Difranco

Is that I know anyone who claims certainty is full of it...we don't know for sure one way or another, and I personally do not feel the "need" to know one way or another...it is far more important to regulate how we deal with each other in the here and now than speculate where we came from, what is the "purpose" of life, and what may or may not happen after we die.

But I do know that logically todays religions are no different than in the past, in that they fill a void in our knowledge. The difference is that religious people today will mock past faiths (like Zeus sitting on a cloud), and dismiss is at rubbish, but would be insulted if I insnuate that one day people MAY be mocking thier beliefs. Human history has shown us how we as a race like to make up answers rather than admit we do not know. Nothing in today's religions is any different, and it is very arrogant to claim that YOUR religion is the right one and all the others are full of it.

In the end...what it boils down to imho, is believe whatever works for you...BUT:

1) Do not harm others.

2) Let them believe what THEY want.

Stay safe all.

Perfection does not exist. The question therefore, is: what level of imperfection are we willing to settle for?

So you mean to say that you believe in no god

even though science cannot prove it

And still u r an atheist just because thats ur Prerogative

Okay i am cool with that

Atheism, like Buddhism, is a phiosophy, not a religion.

"You should try living by my rules for a day nobody would die and there'd be lots of stuff to say." Ani Difranco

Not every belief is a religion....Religion requires an object of worship (object in the gramatical sense, not tangible physical sense)...so no, my "belief" that there is no god is not my religion, any more than my belief that waterpolo is much more entertaining to watch than synchronized swimming is my Religion!

You say I am right, but then again go and repeat exactly what I was disagreeing with =p lol

Again, atheism does not worship anything (not even sceince)....hence it cannot be a religion.

Stay safe all.

Perfection does not exist. The question therefore, is: what level of imperfection are we willing to settle for?

By the way Gypsy that whole friendship thing was a JOKE

not to be taken seriously

and about the dollar it is being depreciated the world over

U havent seen the qatari riyal depreciate too?

thats because the riyal is pegged to the dollar

if it was a floating currency like the euro and had strong exports and a stable economy to back it up, the riyal wud have appreciated just like the canadian dollar

RAGNA UR SO RIGHT

thats exactly what iam saying

For me religion is all encompassing

Every single thing i do should become a part of my religion

And therefore religion is a law according to me on how to live my life

so if u wud see it from my perspective your belief and i repeat ur belief though it is rationalized, is ur religion

It wouldbe called a fact if you could give me an alternate exlaination of the why? question and prove it.

I'm fine with things...I just choose not to argue with certain people...goes wayyyyyyyyy back..bout 4 months..probably before you came on QL. I just get a bit tired of hearing how my religion is the cause of everything and whatever...so...peace to you too!!

As far as Bush being friends with Canada's PM...don't think so!! Might add tho...Canadians certainly do have the right mindset in that regard...ahem...

You are saying atheism is a religion too because we have "faith" in the belief that there is no god...

But since faith requires a suspention of disbelief I have to disagree with you....atheists do not "believe"....they rationalize....whereas theists cannot rationalize, so they are required to make a "leap of faith" as it were.

So no, not every opinion someone adheres to makes it a religion....then you would be applying a VERY broad definition of religion, and every person who drinks coffee in the morning becomes an adherent of "the coffee religion".

Atheism is NOT a religion....it doesn't worship anything (that is the MAIN requirement of a religion).

Stay safe all.

Perfection does not exist. The question therefore, is: what level of imperfection are we willing to settle for?

Shubi, my prime ministers close friend Bush??? The current Canadian PM (and the last one) don't agree with Bush's policies at all, hence why we aren't in Iraq and our dollar is surpassing the American. :D

"You should try living by my rules for a day nobody would die and there'd be lots of stuff to say." Ani Difranco

Theists are also cats

ever tried to herd the different sects of any religion in one direction

The same goes for atheists u might have different sects but ur not much different Adey

You have faith in the belief there is no God and i dont want to change any mindset

this is just my reasoning for my beliefs

The reasoning might be different but the ideology is the same

Now we have different meanings as per the different definitions but honestly u know what i am talking about

And gypsy i didnt call any of this a crusade like ur Prime ministers close friend Bush

regardless of religion or otherwise..

"But Hey, I don't think being religious or married makes you decent."

yes see the result :P

LOL ... Gypsy ! u bet being religious or married will not make a person decent ! decency comes from ones inner soul !

Cheers.

--"Unfortunate is he who cannot gain a few sincere friends during his life and more unfortunate is the one who has gained them and then lost them (through his deeds). " Imam Ali(AS)

lol ... i am not calling anyone my enemy or anyone upset with me .. i was going thru Scarlett, Gypys and Mrs Tug of War posts ... i commented on that for them only ;-)

I personally feel that religious topic is not that difficult if discussed in a professional manner... we are here not to invite to someone to accept Christanity/ Islam or Hinduism ...

It's just simply a discussion forum where everyone should share his point views not to try to implement on others !!

Peace

--"Live amongst people in such a manner that if you die they weep over you and if you are alive they crave for your company" Imam Ali(AS)

I wouldn't call my family background decent, but my parents are married and religious. But Hey, I don't think being religious or married makes you decent.

"You should try living by my rules for a day nobody would die and there'd be lots of stuff to say." Ani Difranco

Yeah!

I wonder why it's not all over the news?

He is just saying "I don't understand, so.....a big man in the sky done it!"

Sorry these are old arguments with no credibility.

Anyway Speed I'm cool with you, no enemies here. You have faith and I don't, and as long as people don't try and tell me what to do based on their religion I wont throw it back in their faces. You wanted a reaction to your OP and you got one. That's why I don't start threads about religion or it's dogma.

Peace

I don't go to mythical places with strange men.

-- Douglas Adams, The Long Dark Tea-Time of the Soul.

PEACE ... I think all of you are professional and intelligent people who belongs to a decent family backgrounds ... as i mentioned earlier we should be open minded in discussions and should not attack on any religion/culture/nationality or society ....

Not only here, i have noticde in other thread similar kind of attitude ...

I got so many negative post but I dealt them with SMILE and Positive attitude !

I personally feel we should make friends here with our discussions not enemies ;-)

link not live and google has no matches

I don't go to mythical places with strange men.

-- Douglas Adams, The Long Dark Tea-Time of the Soul.

Speed his "proof" in the exsistence of God is quotes from the Bible and conjecture based on little known (and dismissed) scientific theory. I'm sorry, but that article does not prove the existence of God.

"You should try living by my rules for a day nobody would die and there'd be lots of stuff to say." Ani Difranco

Adey,, This article might be of your interest..

http://www.realtruth.org/articles/070601-006-teog.html?cid=g1192&s_kwcid=existence%20of%20god|1167384041&gclid=CI-cu_KGso8CFSQ3TAod2gFBMg

Religion

1 the belief in a superhuman controlling power, esp, in a personal god or gods entitled to obedience and worship.

2 The expression of this worship

3 a particular system of faith and worship

Atheists are all different so there is no system, don't worship science coz that changes, whereas you have to worship the static.

Theists are always referred to as sheep or as the flock coz they are easy to control and will go wherever you lead them. Atheists are cats, ever tried to herd cats?

Sorry, not in your club, not a religion.

I don't go to mythical places with strange men.

-- Douglas Adams, The Long Dark Tea-Time of the Soul.

faith is in something which cant be proven or seen. Atheist cant have faith therefore not a religion. science doesn't have 'faith' either, it has reason.

Again the religious poking their noses into things that don't concern them, telling people what they believe in, according to their god-centric mindset.

There is no 'why', there just 'is'. Why does there have to be a 'why'? Why dinosaurs? Why plague? Why the milky way? Why black holes.

We don't know but that does not mean - insert supernatural impossible being from outside space and time. Where did god come from? How? Why?

This is getting away from the topic, you will never shift my views and I suspect you will cling to yours, we are all different therefore this illustrates why it is so important to separate religion from the state.

Do what you think is right about marriage etc according to your religious world view but don't expect others to follow you. You would say the same to me.

So we are in agreement.

I don't go to mythical places with strange men.

-- Douglas Adams, The Long Dark Tea-Time of the Soul.

You know, reading some of this, I can't help but be reminded of some George W. Bush speeches. I guess conservatives are the same world round. Really I think the vast majority of conflict is caused by people who are too alike, not too different.

"You should try living by my rules for a day nobody would die and there'd be lots of stuff to say." Ani Difranco

I have a question why did the big bang take place

why is there life on earth

and dont try to manipulate ur answers and give me a "how" just like every scientific theory out there

I am just saying until the day science doesnot give me the reason for creation iam gonna believe in my saviour (again a how doesnt culminate into a why)

by the way heres the dictionary meaning of Religion

Merriam-Webster's Online Dictionary:

"a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith."

Atheism is nowadays held with more ardor and faith then ur old religions and ofcourse u define the cause and principles according ur set of beliefs

Neways

To u b ur way and to me be mine

It is the belief in no supernatural sky daddies. To be a religion you have to believe in a supernatural cogent being, we do not.

I don't go to mythical places with strange men.

-- Douglas Adams, The Long Dark Tea-Time of the Soul.

Is that what you are saying now, I thought you blamed it on the abandonment of traditional religious family structure and rules. Egypt and Tunisia follow these rules and yet have a higher incidence than the liberal west.

I have studied religion and found it to be based on the false premise that there is a power in the sky that has an interest in humans and everything is his will. And not one shred of proof or evidence for it.

Please I'm not being rude but you cant put 'rational' and 'religious' in the same sentence unless you don't know the meaning of the word 'rational'.

And secondly I gave you proof on another thread that only 7% of research scientists of any note believe in a 'god'. 93% say there is no such thing, so please don't repeat that mis-information again.

I don't go to mythical places with strange men.

-- Douglas Adams, The Long Dark Tea-Time of the Soul.

Why dont u need an answer fr those questions Adey

Ur a person of knowledge i believe and should take all decisions based on a rational mind

If u have an answer and somewhere where u dont have an answer

then i believe u shud try to work out a problem where u atleast have an answer to work with

That is the reason many scientists believe in religion still

By the way some western countries are more religious then some asian countries

Egypt and Tunisia religious?

What a joke

Egypt is a republic country which is also a self proclaimed democracy - another joke

On top of that poverty is so high in these countries that such kind of behaviour is very common

No such thing as god and I dont need one to find an 'answer', 'path' or 'way'. The answer is 64 anyway. he he.

Anyway some results for you:

Mean % of population crime victims in Asia:

Sexual Assaults - 2.1%

Corruption - 15.1%

Consumer fraud - 29.3%

% Sexual Assaults, in the bastion of religious family values....................Cairo - 10.1% & Tunis - 5.5%

In the godless west the worst two % Sexual Assaults are...............Australia - 7.3% & Switzerland - 4.6%

Data from:

Key findings from the 1996 International Crime Victims Survey.

The Hague: Ministry of Justice, WODC

&

Criminal victimisation in the Developing World.

United Nations Publiction no 55, Rome, UNICRI

I don't go to mythical places with strange men.

-- Douglas Adams, The Long Dark Tea-Time of the Soul.

..

think what you want to. PM has nothing to do with it. I came about that totally on my own. Same writing style, same mindset, same insults when stirred up. Never heard of Lara tho...new one to me...must have missed that one.

I wish you the best...and choose not to argue with you on things. Like I said..you impressed me with your apology when you were wrong. One of the reasons I never argue with you is that mom always said that if I can't say something nice about someone, say nothing at all. I disagree with most of your views, so I didn't say anything...until your apology...then voiced my opinion...

Yours truly,

Sir Scarlett

I thought that you were a decent person who is gonna act like a human & apologize for calling me "he", but you are just another stupid liar. I think your religion is encouraging you on doing this.

"Be strong but not arrogant

Be modest but not weak"

S.H

I have no original name. it has always been Mrs.

That stupid PM has always connected me to Air Supply, Port Alfred, Lara, etc. That's why I keep insulting her.

Anyone who thinks like PM is simply a stupid person. Got that clear, Sir?

"Be strong but not arrogant

Be modest but not weak"

S.H

and again..no disrespect meant..but I just can't go along with the gender and name farce. however..you may be more than welcome to call me sir or him, if you so wish. Its one of those things that has come up before..do what you believe in...and what's right. My religion tells us not to lie...so therefore I don't.

proper manner, Sir (if you want proper manner to be mutual)

As I said earlier, I do not tolerate the slightest hint of disrespect.

"Be strong but not arrogant

Be modest but not weak"

S.H

gender...and you may feel free to call me sir if you like...no disprespect meant..just address folks as their original name implies.

just as you know mine mrs...

Dear Sir...I have 1 small request;

Please check the Gender in my profile

"Be strong but not arrogant

Be modest but not weak"

S.H

By the way adey

Atheism is also a religion

A religion which is much more complex then ur well known religions

Why?

Well u have explained the origin of life with the course of the big bang theory

but

Science can only tell u how it never tells u why?

May mythological to u but atleast our religions have an answer

Dont get all technical with the creation in the number of days and all

I am just talking about being able to provide an answer

if there is goodness inside you, religion will only work as a guide specially when you reach a cross road & don't know which path to follow. Religion in this case will help you see the paths from a different perspective. It will be like a high ladder that when you climb, you will be able to see all the paths in that cross road, and then you will be able to chose the best path.

And since man can only make high ladders & buildings, that's why man's perspective is limited to some distance, while God, who is much higher, is having a much better perspective. That is why man has to obey (sometimes) without questioning.

If there is evil inside you...no religion will help.

"Be strong but not arrogant

Be modest but not weak"

S.H

Adey it wud all be about family and not sex if ur every day joul including the married ones were not looking at the next best thing always

didu catch my drift

Man after all is a part of the original sin afterall

just curious as to how you came about with that comment...

Scarlett that wasnt for u i was remarking about Adeys comment that everythings about sex in religions

Ohh fiddledeedee.....

The highest cases of crimes in the world are related to sex

which is why he said what he did..and that's why I said I was impressed...He realized that he made a mistake and therefore corrected it with an apology...That's impressive to me, because many don't do that on here.

Normal codes of social behaviour are applicable to all but you have to just consider which codes you are talking about..each culture will have a bit of different ones but basically they are the same.

looks like you are a totally different person today.. you have a lot of good points.. good job..

the UN that has supported the Zionist occupation of Palastine, the UN that is happily watching the disasters in Afganistan & Iraq...But of course they would support cheating wives & give them the highest level of the 'human happiness index'!! With whom else would the 'gentlemen' of the UN have fun? (specially when there's a 'great' prime minister who gives a blind eye to those 'cozy' bedrooms)

"Be strong but not arrogant

Be modest but not weak"

S.H

The ten commandements are available in every holy scripture in the world

May be they are not tabulated as such but theyare thesame in every religion

Mrs u dont have to be sorry if its the truth

Normal codes of social behaviour are not applicabe to all i guess

give that baby and wife a BIG hug..but watch out for the Land Cruisers!!

Taken from Hamurabi's code (the 10 cammandments that is)....written by a man (ok granted a King, but still a man!) Thousands of years before Judaism...but I REALLY must get home...for the last time I SWEAR...night all!

Stay safe.

Perfection does not exist. The question therefore, is: what level of imperfection are we willing to settle for?

A principle problem with the religious rhetoric about family values is the fact that just about all of those "values" are about sex, sexual behavior, and sexuality. Even worse, the focus is almost entirely on what not to do: don't engage in premarital sex, don't masturbate, don't have homosexual feelings (never mind engage in homosexual behavior), don't look at sexually explicit material, don't have an abortion, etc. If it weren't for repressed sexuality, there might not be any room at all for sexuality in this worldview.

Irreligious atheists don't believe that there are any gods out there who are intensely interested in human sexual behavior or what sorts of dirty pictures people might look at on their computers. So what are good, solid family values? They have to be the values which are necessary for strong, healthy families to produce strong, healthy individuals. When it comes to good family values, atheists are more likely to be concerned about things like love, kindness, mutual respect, sacrifice, and building a better future together as a community.

Religion and theism aren't needed for family values or for strong families because the values which make families strong exist outside of religion. Religion and gods aren't necessary for love. Or respect. Or self-sacrifice. Or mutual support. I know this sounds redundant, but what is obvious to irreligious atheists sometimes isn't obvious to religious theists: since their religion and theism are central to every part of their lives, it can be difficult for them to recognize how others can do without.

I don't go to mythical places with strange men.

-- Douglas Adams, The Long Dark Tea-Time of the Soul.

In my rush to get home to the wife and baby I must be typing like a Noob! Btw Thanks for pointing it out Scarlett =p

Stay safe.

Perfection does not exist. The question therefore, is: what level of imperfection are we willing to settle for?

The (original) 10 commandments are Not man made.

The Old & New Testimonies are not man made.

The Quran is not man made

I am sure that there are millions of Buddhists, Sikhs, Hindu who will tell you that their holy books are not man made

So people need not follow man made laws.

Scarlett, believe it or not, I am VERY careful in chosing my words with people in order to treat them with respect. But I do not tolerate the slightest hint of disrespect. Gypsy made me angry when she disregarded the main issue & started claiming that I was bashing people while I was saying my opinion in some law of some country. But my reaction was extreme (when I called her a liar), that's why I had to apologize!

Thank you for your comment!

"Be strong but not arrogant

Be modest but not weak"

S.H

Since we have religions and messagners from all over the world and since the beginning of time...which set of laws do we base our legal system on? Since whatever Religion you choose, not everyone will beleive in, we have a problem....why not go for a neutral and logical common sense denominator that will guarantee equal rights for all....and leave Religion out of it....just like in Canada! =)

Now I really have to get home....have a good night all, and Stay safe.

Perfection does not exist. The question therefore, is: what level of imperfection are we willing to settle for?

erfection...did you misplace yours??

Is that when people look into our "stories" they can see records of vote at the UN for themselves ;)

Stay safe all.

erfection does not exist. The question therefore, is: what level of imperfection are we willing to settle for?

If u wud follow ragna

religious people believe that messengers from god have been coming from the beginning of time

Why cant it be possible that during the period when hammurabis code of law was written a messenger was sent

And let me tell u if people were to find our scientific books millions of years down the lane they would think that science was our religion

I accepted your funny stories without claiming that you have a negative, unsustaned...etc opinion. I let you utter what you want. (But the best joke was that "human happiness index"..hehehe'

"Be strong but not arrogant

Be modest but not weak"

S.H

A counrty that does not learn from its mistakes (and they ALL make them) is doomed to repeat them!

I gotta be getting home...see you guys tomorrow =)

Stay safe all.

Perfection does not exist. The question therefore, is: what level of imperfection are we willing to settle for?

I've been following this the whole time...you have truly impressed me by your last post...

Wether you believe in God or not....almost all the religion's divine laws (the Abrahamic monotheistic one at least)....are based on the 10 commandments...which ARE man made...they are plaguarized from Hamurabi's laws which predate them by Thousands of years....why does everyone conveniently forget that?

Wether divine or man made, no legal system is perfect....you always feel sorry for those who do not receive justice, but to dismiss a country's legal just because it doea not follow a thousand year old book verbatum is not an improvement...on the contrary!

Stay safe all.

Perfection does not exist. The question therefore, is: what level of imperfection are we willing to settle for?

Ragna and gypsy

I am a refugee

and what isee is that all of the countries are still learning from their own and other countries mistakes

"Be strong but not arrogant

Be modest but not weak"

S.H

The Picture you painted of the Canadian family was a tad funnier though =p.

Stay safe.

Perfection does not exist. The question therefore, is: what level of imperfection are we willing to settle for?

I am sorry again

I just want to prove that man made laws are not perfect

and no rational mind can ever promise me that there is hundred percent justice in any country

And dont blame religion for what you have done

Jesus showed us the way just like Abraham and Moses before him and the Muslims believe that muhammed was also one of the messengers who told us to forbid what is wrong eschew what is right

Now if we leave the way and follow our own man made laws and blame religion for it then its not the mistake of the religion but of the people who follow it

Firstly...I was mostly talking to Mrs and not yourself....but secondly and more importantly, I may sound defensive but I am honestly not offended. As I said before I don't think Canada is perfect and unless we criticize what we think are shortcomings we will never improve....I only chime in when I think a criticism is unwarranted and try and present the "why"...if its a criticism I agree with, then i'll add my voice to the chorus.

I honestly don't know trhe circumstances of your uncle's situation and I do sympathize if he got a bad deal, but there surely is a way to address it....what I was arguing about is the conclusion that Canadian llaws are utter failure because they move away from the word of God.

Canada is a multicultural and multireligious society and we guarantee the same rights to ALL our citizens regardless of their faith....in fact faith is never a part of the equation because we all have such diverse beliefs...I guess that's a point that will have to remain beyond some people, just as their zeal and beliefs remain beyond mine...oh well.

Lastly I want to apologize to the OP...I honestly intended to add an opinion on the topic but got majorly sidetracked....i'm sorry if i helped in derailing the thread.

Stay safe all.

Perfection does not exist. The question therefore, is: what level of imperfection are we willing to settle for?

Shubi, you are the one who was making generalizations about Canadian law, I was trying to find out what the mitagating circumstances are. I don't know how I was generalizing as I don't know anything about you, where you're from, you're nationality or even your sex.

Speed, The number of men who leave their children (even out of wedlock) high and dry in the West is very very few. Even if they don't continue the relationship with the woman they will usually take care of their kids.

Mrs. I don't appreciate being called a liar, as I haven't said anything remotely personal to you.

"I fight with love and I laugh with rage, you have to live light enough to see the humor and long enough to see some change." Ani Difranco

I have negative opinions about all wrongful things...not just the injust to that uncle, by the Canadian law.

The story itself sustains my opinion.

I am accepting your funny fiction story about the 4 wives & maids, though!

"Be strong but not arrogant

Be modest but not weak"

S.H

When i ever talk of the west that may include canada or may not but it isnt the butt of my remarks ever i swear if i have hurt ur feelings

I dont care about what you care or not. Either be respectful by discussing the topic without making personal attacks or I will have no problems in treating you the same.

Once again I am warning you that you have no right in lying (as you usually are) and claiming that I was bashing people.

I was only giving the people the facts about just another helpless law in the west, which happened to be in Canada. That story of the uncle is a support to what I am saying

"Be strong but not arrogant

Be modest but not weak"

S.H

Also Mrs. and Speed, why should a child be punished for being born out of wedlock?? The child certainly had nothing to do with it.

xxxxx

I never mentioned that such child should be punished ? This is not a fault of a child, i do agree with you..

The concern was that If man and woman makes love (as you described) is coz they wanted to get married ? Tell me how many cases in this world are successful ... pls be honest !! How many women get pragnent (without marriage) and their LOVERS leave them on the street just beacuse she is of no use now (true loves are very few)

Secondly, my believe is that all this is hapenning coz people are doing against the Will of GOD !

So my point of view was that such Relationship in the Eye of GOD is forbidden regardless what SOCITIES say or implement their own rules and regulations against GOD's Will.

indirectly at least....you have been bashing Canada....that's what I was trying to talk to you about....your beef with Gypsy is another matter entirely and seems to span many threads, but you Do have negative (which is your right) and unsubtantiated (which I try and address when I can) opinions about Canada.

Stay safe all.

Perfection does not exist. The question therefore, is: what level of imperfection are we willing to settle for?

Just to answer gypsy again

she got my uncle arrested when he tried to meet his kids

Just repeat what u have just said to Gypsy

that she shouldnt generalize

If u have read this work of fiction then u will know the difference

and frankly speaking i am secure enuf for the both of us

Because otherwise i would have started making opinions about Gypsys upbringing because of the social skills she possesses

Different people all believe different things....and no matter how vehemontly some people argue their beliefs are no better than anyone else's...therefore, unless EVERY member of a society believs 100% in the same thing, you cannot have religion dictating your laws!

Stay safe all.

Perfection does not exist. The question therefore, is: what level of imperfection are we willing to settle for?

Mrs. I really don't care what you call me. Sticks and stones as they say.

"I fight with love and I laugh with rage, you have to live light enough to see the humor and long enough to see some change." Ani Difranco

Korea and Japan have the highest rates of suicide. If you'd lived there (or knew any Koreans or Japanese) you'd realize that Noone would ever report their depression (hence the high suicide rates).

"I fight with love and I laugh with rage, you have to live light enough to see the humor and long enough to see some change." Ani Difranco

Watch it Gypsy! Don't start your ugly lies once again. So far I have done no bashing to anyone (east or west). Don't let me stop talking to you politely.

"Be strong but not arrogant

Be modest but not weak"

S.H

what you are talking as fiction may be fiction for you not for others.

Mixing state and religion may be a problem in Europe.

Here the problem is selective mix of religion and state.

If the laws were equally applied there wouldnt be much of a problem.

Nor giving an opinion on the topic title even...haven't gotten around to it yet Shuaib....I was first addressing Mrs comments about Canada.

I am confident in Canadian law and its justice IF my wife ever went back to Canada and did that.

Stay safe.

Perfection does not exist. The question therefore, is: what level of imperfection are we willing to settle for?

Somehow I have my doubts you're telling us the whole story Shubi. Has he even tried to go back to Canada and see his kids?

"I fight with love and I laugh with rage, you have to live light enough to see the humor and long enough to see some change." Ani Difranco

AND 4URINFO AMERICA IS THE MOST DEPRESSED COUNTRY IN THE WORLD

9.6% OF THE POPULATION TO BE PRECISE

GYPSY U LOOK IT UP

Plus if you know anything about the laws in Canada you'd see that's not what they say....and just because there MIGHT be family like that doesn't mean all Canadian families are like that!

Just like I would not want to live in a neighborhood where the women are slaves and chattel, beaten daily and the dad has 4 wives, screws the maids but Mom wouldn't dare say a word lest she be stoned...just because there MIGHT be a family like that in the middle east doesn't mean all of them live like that!

But honestly, if you'd rather follow some thousands of year old work of fiction, and refuse to see the dangers of mixing state and religion, then that's your perogative...but to attack Canadian laws and life in Canada as anything but enviable...would make you a very disctict minority in the world....though we are secure enough to say you are entitled to your opinion =)

Stay safe all.

Perfection does not exist. The question therefore, is: what level of imperfection are we willing to settle for?

LOL! What bashing was I doing? I was trying to find out why that ruling would be made. Once you said the circumstances it's quite obvious. The only bashing going on here is Western bashing by Mrs. and you Shubi.

"I fight with love and I laugh with rage, you have to live light enough to see the humor and long enough to see some change." Ani Difranco

So u mean to say just because he is not living in canada right now that means he should kept at a distance from his children even when he wants to meet them

And Ragna u r supporting her for this

god forbids u have to send ur wife back home and the relationship doesnt work

Should ur wife have the right to make unwanted claims against u which u have not commited and take ur daughter away from u without even visitation rights?

MOnkey does as monkey see! ragna

U felt the pinch when canadas name came in

what about all the bashing that gypsy has been doing since the beginning of the thread

and to top that all she has the guts to put a serious alegation against a family member of mine

If she is an example of the west then i guess no one in their right mind would like to be associated with the likes of her.

What "happiness" Ragnarock when all the nieghborhood knows that your mom has a lover who comes when your dad goes to work and she'd screw your dad if he dares object or file for divorce?

Is that your definition for "happiness"? I'd rather die!

"Be strong but not arrogant

Be modest but not weak"

S.H

Obviously you've never lived in Korea (North or South) or Japan, or even know anything at all about their cultures if you think they are mirror images of the West. If anything the culture is closer to Middle Eastern culture then Western.

"I fight with love and I laugh with rage, you have to live light enough to see the humor and long enough to see some change." Ani Difranco

Gypsy Korea and japan are mirror images of the west

Work is the first religion

If iam not wrong Ur talking about south korea that too right?

There you go Shubi, Thank you. Yes, she cheated on him because they didn't even live in the same country. I see that happening all the time, even amongst Asian couples here. The Fact is LDR's don't work. She was given custody of the children because she lives in Canada, he can't have custody of the children because he doesn't live there. It's impossible. Obviously he makes more money so he has to pay for the kids. This isn't the Canadian government being cruel, this is just the only logical answer.

"I fight with love and I laugh with rage, you have to live light enough to see the humor and long enough to see some change." Ani Difranco

You did worse than what Gypsy did....instead of finding out the circumstances of which Shuaib's family had received such a weird ruling, you decided to condem all Canadian laws and claim the closer we are to represive laws made by man made mythologies, the more "harmonious" societies will be!

Utter nonsense....Canada may not be perfect, but the WHOLE world (ie ever country in the United Nations) bestows upon them year and again the title of best place on earth to live via their votes (and this takes into account a mryiad of factors like standard of living, education, healthcare, crime rate, pollution, human happiness index, etc...)....so before you criticize, do some research....they must be doing something right in Canada!

Stay safe all.

Perfection does not exist. The question therefore, is: what level of imperfection are we willing to settle for?

Whats urr point alexa

since something is wrong to the fabric of the society and if it still happens u shud make it legal

Strict religious communities are yet another bad example whether Iran, Saudi, Afghanistan, Vatican...etc.

But the amount of social diseases in the west are much more than places like (for example) Tunisia, Jordan, Dubai, Turkey, Malaysia...etc.

No one said that children are a social disease, although you support abortion!

"Be strong but not arrogant

Be modest but not weak"

S.H

Mrs. Many people could say that Arabs abuse and keep down women, not allowing them to show their faces or even leave their homes without permission. That these women are forced into marriages with men they don't love, who turn around and marry 3 or 4 other women, not to mention keep tons of mistresses and go whoring in Bangcock every other weekend. These people are killed and tortured for small crimes (such as adultry)or for having sex out of wedlock (which hurts nobody). Children born out of wedlock are left to starve and die, or continue the cycle they were born into because no one will educate them. Arabs feel that it is ok to keep slaves, and beat them whenever they feel or deny them basic human rights (like the ability to go home and see their families.

Shubi, Korea and Japan have the highest rates of Depression and suicide. Please look it up.

"I fight with love and I laugh with rage, you have to live light enough to see the humor and long enough to see some change." Ani Difranco

Gypsy he couldnt abuse her even if he wanted to because he was working in doha while she was in canada for along time

U r making judgements without knowing the truth

ur the most prejudiced person ever

Yes he is a canadian citizen

Gypsy u r talking about a kin of mine who have known all my life

and when u talk about happiness

let metell u

According to a survey done by CNN

the most happiest people in the world are Bangladeshies who are also the poorest nation in the world

And western countries have the highest rate of depression and anxiety then any asian country and i challenge you to prove me otherwise

Terrorist killings are done by terrorists

Should i hold KU KLUX KLANs views to represent the views of the whole of christiandom

No because if i did then i would be alooney tune

There is no fundamentalist regime

if u r refering to the gulf countries then let me remind u that they are monarchies not regimes or democracies for that matter

Some stupid people think that every western woman is an easy target since 'these people have no religion, deny God, have no ethics & morals, are drunk most of the time, have no problem in getting pregnant without marriage, cheating on their partners all the time...etc.'

I think that you are encouraging those fools by refusing to punish married people who commit adultry. This way you are raising the odds that most western people are decending from such mothers & fathers.

(But in this case, are they 100% sure that they have been living with their REAL fathers and mothers?)

"Be strong but not arrogant

Be modest but not weak"

S.H

Shuai, what the hell are you talking about? You and Mrs. need to stop basing your opinions of the west based on religious propaganda. Your uncle is no special case at all, I know many men who kept their children in similar circumstances, which is why I need to ask you again, Is your Uncle a Canadian citizen? Did he abuse his wife or children?

"I fight with love and I laugh with rage, you have to live light enough to see the humor and long enough to see some change." Ani Difranco

I don't consider children to be social diseases Mrs. I'm sorry. And as for him being a "decent husband" if he's such a decent husband why did the government see fit to take his children from him? I would say chances are he wasn't a very good husband and his wife used the affair as an excuse for divorce. Eliminating the supposed laws of God has lead away from more social disease and created happier societies then following those false laws. Look at the standard of living in Canada and the Happiness of the people as compared to Iran or Saudi Arabia. Look at the Human Rights, look how many people aren't killed in terrorist bombings or honour killings. Sorry, but liberal Western society is a thousand times better then any fundamentalist regime.

"I fight with love and I laugh with rage, you have to live light enough to see the humor and long enough to see some change." Ani Difranco

Canary says my uncle is a special case if u think of it as a gender issue

the fact is that the law of the west has been inadequate to support social injustices in these countries

You have ill mannered children who have more rights then the parents who are supposed to support them

No one ever realizes that more children die to drug overdose in a year then the total number of people who have died in any major terrorist attack, or any natural calamity till date

the system supports money with the few while the rest suffer

Fascism has just turned into Capitalism

People dont understand the bigger picture

when the lives of the future generation doesnt have order and discipline with love and understanding to match

the future inthe end suffers

fatherless, motherless or single parent homes always suffer in bringing up children

You prefer that adultry should not be a crime (without giving any valid reasons), instead of realizing the faults of the law.

In this case, you are supporting my theory that allowing man to make his own laws away from God, is leading to many social diseases. The problem of that uncle is only a very simple example. God says "punish those who commit adultry". Man says "Don't!". The result is a lost, runaway child, an adultress wife punishing a decent husband who refused to accept being cheated! Vey fair law indeed!

Should that ugly woman been punished severly (along with her lover), she'd (and him) would think twice about it next time. They would be an example to the community, and other wives would know that they will be losing everything (money & their children) if they committed adultry. Aren't laws made to eliminate ugly things?

That 'great' Prime Minister of yours, will he neglect the events of his bedroom when his wife is entertaining another 'gentleman'? If yes, then you guys deserve such PM's ;-)

"Be strong but not arrogant

Be modest but not weak"

S.H

Mrs. In my experience the law rarely takes children away from deserving parents. And Adultry is nobodies business but the people involved, especially not the laws. As a great Prime Minster of Canada once said "The government has no business in the bedrooms of the nation,"

"I fight with love and I laugh with rage, you have to live light enough to see the humor and long enough to see some change." Ani Difranco

East is East and West is West and never the twain shall meet.

Shuaibkazi

Your uncle is one special case in your eyes. However, to be quite just here, 30-40 years ago the church had a very strong hold on people in the West, which doesn't mean today that they don't have strong followers nowadays too. However, living by the Holy Quran which most Muslim families live by, again not all do. The same goes for the West, you will meet many people who live according to their religon but then again many who don't.

In many countries East and West you have adultury, bigamy, sodomy, etc. you name it it is happening, and definately not only in the West.

The catholic church lost many menbers when priests were found having sexual affairs with boys. How can you follow the teaching of a Man of God when you know this is going on. Lastly people are more educated now and do ask themselves "Why Marry"?

Marriage is only a piece of paper saying you can legally live together.

instead of recognizing the problem in the Canadian law, you find it easier to decide that:

1.Adultry should not be punished by the law.

2.That uncle is a bad person & deserves all the injust that happened to him.

I think the laws in this part of the world are punishing the adults, more than the illegitimate children. I also don't suppose you should have a problem with punishing the baby, since you support abortion & you don't mind that adults kill those lives in the bellies. So why should it be bad to punish an illegitimate child (if ever)?

"Be strong but not arrogant

Be modest but not weak"

S.H

Nope I'm not being sexist. I'm simply asking what your uncle did?

"I fight with love and I laugh with rage, you have to live light enough to see the humor and long enough to see some change." Ani Difranco

Gypsy arent you being sexist now

Iam speaking about a couple who ihave grown in front of

The affair was going on even in doha

but my uncle was patient with her

when she moved to canada she secretly sponsored her boyfriend and supported him through the years on her husbands money

and for the rest

Laws can easily be manipulated and evidence can easily be altered

So what is your uncle? Abusive? Substance abuser? Neglectful? Obviously he doesn't live in the country so how can he have custody of his kids? Is he not a Canadian citizen?

"I fight with love and I laugh with rage, you have to live light enough to see the humor and long enough to see some change." Ani Difranco

The wife doesnt work

And also supports the Beatnik who is her boyfriend

Also Mrs. and Speed, why should a child be punished for being born out of wedlock?? The child certainly had nothing to do with it.

"I fight with love and I laugh with rage, you have to live light enough to see the humor and long enough to see some change." Ani Difranco

That not being allowed to get a divorce (Catholic), and allowed to have 4 wives (Islam) are also two 'extreme' cases!

"Be strong but not arrogant

Be modest but not weak"

S.H

I have to wonder then Shubi, what he did that not only did his wife cheat on him, but the courts took away his kids. Canada may not be perfect, but it usually doesn't take peoples children away from them for no reason.

"I fight with love and I laugh with rage, you have to live light enough to see the humor and long enough to see some change." Ani Difranco

It's not the wife who's getting the penny, it's the children, that's the whole point of alimony. Adultry is an issue between the people involved in it and is not an illegal act and shouldn't be treated as such.

"I fight with love and I laugh with rage, you have to live light enough to see the humor and long enough to see some change." Ani Difranco

Gypsy canada isnt perfect just like the rest of the countries in the world

My uncle doesnt have joint custody and to top itall

She charged him so many things

That he is not allowed in some proximity of his children

if the Canadian law does not intend to be fair, by punishing a cheating wife (imprisonment for example), then it is only fair (at least) that she does not get a single penny. The same should apply to the husband if he cheats/commits adultry.

"Be strong but not arrogant

Be modest but not weak"

S.H

At least one person got my point of view that's you...

You are right what you said:

"The further you drift away from God's divine laws, the more social problems you are in.

Some people learn the lesson, while others insist that those societies are on the 'right track'!

Most people claim that they belongs to XYZ religion but they dont know what their Religion says about Ethics/Marriage issues/women rights and respect/how to live a life to make your GOD happy/ Life after death ...

In short people have forgotton their religion and blindly running after these corrupted socities !

Promiscuity includes infidelity and some more dont you think canary

I just defamed men a little more than you would have liked

Its not the east or the west that is the problem

its the laws

Okay so in todays world religious laws are not going to be taken seriously

so try to better them, not make it more difficult and harming to the sanctity of marriage

Divorce laws in Canada are usually quite fair, though there are exceptions. Adultry is taken into consideration but is usually not a deciding factor for who gets the children or who pays the alimony. Usually the case (which I sure is the case with Shubi's friend) both parents get joint custody and the spouse who makes more pays the alimony.

"I fight with love and I laugh with rage, you have to live light enough to see the humor and long enough to see some change." Ani Difranco

if the wife is a cheater (committing adultry), the child has ran away due to the mother's ugly act, but the husband is yet punished by giving her a lot of money, then these "human" laws in Canada require an enormous amount of consideration. These are the results of civil societies that legalize gay marriages, illegal children...etc.

The further you drift away from God's divine laws, the more social problems you are in.

Some people learn the lesson, while others insist that those societies are on the 'right track'!

I think niether of them (the strictly religious, nor the extremely free) are on the right track.

Forcing people to marry partners they don't know or love, is not the right way. Niether is allowing gays to get married or registering illegitimate children!

"Be strong but not arrogant

Be modest but not weak"

S.H

I agree with you here marriage in the West is based on different rules than in the East. However, even if the East there are many divorces and the social status of a woman is not the same.

However, now many people prefer to marry later and not all peopel are living in pre-marital arrangements - which if you go and live there will be quickly clear to you.

"everything doesn't need to be made into an issue pls".

Isn't it an issue infidelity and promiscuity are quite different things.

my experience madam

as of what i know men are more promiscuos then women

Its just that this instance is from my own family

everything doesnt need to be madeinto an issue pls.

Women as per my knowledge want nothing more than a loving companion who cares for her and will be there when she needs him

but these so called laws have left a sense of mistrust

A person in the west thinks a million times whether the relationship he is going to commit to is for the short term or the long term

But i believe companionship should be based on love and not duration

If it works well and good if it doesnt there should be clear terms on which two parties can call it quits

And for heavens sakes keep those low life lawyers out of it all

Again the infidelity fall into the laps of the women. I am sure that there are no men guilty of infidelity could that be.

I don't think marriage offers the ultimate security at all. many premarital connections work very well and the children ar raised just the same as if the father and mother are married and it is often the marriage that kills the relationship.

East and West have quite different views on family life - where at one time the family used to take care of the parents when they got old now the social welfare takes care of many if there are no families there.

In between times and having seen reports and read newspaper articles, even here in Doha old and sick people are being abandoned by their families and left in hospitals because the family as it once existed does not any more.

Unfortunately in most of peoples lives money has become more important than compassion.

Laws need to be strict and comprehensive

but human laws can only at best leave scope for future additions as per the ruling standards of society

the problem arises when there is a disagreement over the correct standards for making judgements

i believe its the divorce laws in the west which restricts men and women from getting married in the west.

these laws may not only leave you broke but also leave u ina mental asylum

an uncle of mine had a cheating wife who through divorce lawyers got half of his wealth and took the custody of their children due to which his son who loved him a lot ran away at the age of 12 and still hasnt come home after 7 years

now my uncle pays child support from doha for his children in canada and the benefit goes to his wife

even if a person is not evil these lawyers make a monster out of them.

And make the monster look like a man

It is only a piece of paper after all - before religon was instated man was going out with his club and bashing woman on the head and dragging her to is fireside. No one asked if her if he was going to marry her, LOL

We have been together for 6 years and have 2 children 5 and 3. Both born before we married.

My husband and I only married just before or sons forst b'day.

Our reason for our marriage is simple to move to doha. this is not to say we didnt love each other as we love each other very much and being married hasnt changed that. it is more a formilization and based on the fact we were moving to a country that does not look upon defacto relashonships with a kind eye. We both can never remember our anniversery but always remember when we first met.

the side that always makes me turn around for a second glance...lol

Any act that is forbidden in an individual's religion does not make the act illegal..

If a country put out a law that says having a child out of wedlock is illegal then it is illegal... if they don't have a law that is against it, then it legal... Most countries has a law protecting this children to make sure that their parents supports them on their needs

Any sex act that you do in the privacy of your home (in most countries) is no concern of anyone or the government but if you do the same act in public then it becomes their concern..

Majority of the Islam countries has a law against having sexbefore marriage, children out of wedlock and opposite sex living together.. then that makes it illegal..

So it depends on where you are, if an act is condoned or not and if it illegal or not..

As you saw in the film they don't raise their kilts at the front no they only sho theier b*******ms

but life has caught up with me..sigh..and the stress of dealing with men..(just kidding!) besides...I earned every single one of those..and tender age??? approaching 51 at the speed of sound isn't tender..its well marinated!!

no, i think u take all the matter so strong by ur point of view - not all the people all over the world - believers or not - think or feel in the same way as yours. u have to accept this, we have to understand each others!

greys at such a tender age.........u mean the facade I saw the other day was ???........sighhhhhh........women

A good morning to u and canary dear

Life is too short and if u r not living on the edge then u r taking up too much space.

to the Scottish "howdy" raising of the kilts...

Then cancel that Scottish holiday you were planning because sure enough "Brave Heart" will not be able to save you from the fire lol.

P.S. I don't like grey hair either but it is nearly white started when I was 25 so I colour mine too.

just that its difficult to have a discussion with you because you are totally unyielding in your ideas. But then again..sometimes what is typed can seem a bit harsh when its not meant that way...tough to see the facial expressions and inflections in the voice on here..

Didn't mean anything bad about not traveling much...just that when you do..you will see quite a range of adaptablity in the world.

i am a believer in religion..but I still won't judge someone who has a child out of wedlock simply because they are the ones who have to live their own lives.

i'd be burned twice in Scotland...one for makeup and other for coloring hair..i just don't like the gray...sighhhhhhh

Eugenooo ... I think you are trying to heatup the matter ? instead if PEACEFUL discussion ...

Choice is yours ;-0

Yes you are right I have not travelled much, but i have travelled to few countires (not in west/ US) and I have friends from almost all over the world and ofcousre from different religion ... so we do discuss about socieites, religion, war on terror etc...

I choose this topic to discuss here with the people who knows or who follows the Religion ... and for me to gain some more knowledge from different point of views which i always welcome

And by the way we should come here with open mind to discuss issues not the be harsh or get angry simply !

r u an legal or illegal child?!

Just to update on the witch burning process - there is an old law in Scotland that forbid wearing make up and colouring the hair whcih made them a witch and they would be burned - that law has never been revoked - so all you women colouring your hair and wearing make up don't go to Scotland lol.

I think you may be wrong there - but at present the old traditions are gone - at one time it used to be frowned upon to live together and pre-marital sex was always going on but it was very hush hush and in fact it does go on in Muslim countries too but no one talks about it openly.

This does not mean the society is worse than in Muslim countries it is only different.

Three in ten marriages are divorced according to a statistic I read about in Germany and I think it is true, so if they live together this prevents a divorce which may and mostly always is expensive for both parties. In Muslim countires they can say three time I divorce you and the issue is over.

issue, why did you bother posting in the first place, since nothing anyone says is even making a dent in your mindset?? Its like having a discussion with a brick wall...

Fine speed, then they should worry about themselves and leave non belivers such as myself to do as we please.

"I fight with love and I laugh with rage, you have to live light enough to see the humor and long enough to see some change." Ani Difranco

"Yes Marriage is act of Love but one cannot live in this world without getting marriage with children otherwise they will face legal issues everything. So Marriage is act of legalizing everything !!!"

speed...evidently you don't travel much because if you did, then you'd realize you CAN live in the world without being married..very easily, in fact...and your children can too..

Well if you are a non believer (sorry to say and pls correct me if am worng) then your point of view is CORRECT !

But those who follow Religion, it is a matter of concern for them and others ....

in Christianity...just not condoned as such...of course its preferred to be married before having children but its not illegal.

AND...even if you are not married, if you live together for 7 years in the US, you are considered to BE married..its called common law marriage and you are entitled to all the rights as you would be if you had that little piece of paper stating you are married.

Who cares what religious authorities think? Only in Muslim countries (all what 7 of them) does anyone care what religious authorities think.

"I fight with love and I laugh with rage, you have to live light enough to see the humor and long enough to see some change." Ani Difranco

"WRONG, most countries in the world do not consider having premarital sex illegal, in fact only a few Muslim countries do. The only way a couple (married or no) would be put behind bars for having sex is if they were doing it in public"

WORNG: Not only few Muslim countires infact in every Muslim country premarital sex is Illegal, in West it's considered as legal but if you talk to their religious authorities they consider it as Illegal such as in Christanity ?

Yes Marriage is act of Love but one cannot live in this world without getting marriage with children otherwise they will face legal issues everything. So Marriage is act of legalizing everything !!!

there was a bumper sticker I saw in Austin Texas a few years back that stated...

"The last time religion ruled the government..people were burned at the stake."

That refers to the witch burnings back in THE Puritan days in America...all someone had to do was point in a person's direction, say that they had cursed them, so therefore they were a witch..and that innocent person was burned to death to prove if she/he was or not.(evidently the concensus was that witches didn't burn...so if you died, you were innocent..?? Drowning was yet another way to determine innocence..since witches floated..which meant you couldn't swim or you'd end up being dragged out and THEN burned...) Usually it was merely due to someone having a disagreement with another and was retaliation.

Condemnation like that is abhorrent. That also goes for the illegitimate children issue...what people do is THEIR business...no one else's.

You are taking a U turn ... yes i agree we should look into our house first ... If you know how to Lock such channels pls do let me know here or send me pvt msg.. It will b a gr8 help !

Old ideas ? Wordings of "Holy Quran" is for life till the Day of Judgment and no one can changed a single dot in any verse as this is Promised by Al Mighty.

No uturn dear, no matter if it is from the "Holy Quran" some people do misuse that law.

To lock the unwanted channels go to the control panel and it will offer you the possibility to lock a channel you don't want to open the selection will appear on the TV screen all you have to do is follow the instructions it is quite simple really.

Perhaps I am risking the wrath of the righteous :) but to me the bottom line is that any form of sexual activity between any number of consenting adults of any gender should not have anything whatsoever to do with secular laws.

As to moral or religious guidelines or laws, each person should adhere to what is right according to their own beliefs and let others do the same.

When children come into the world, one would always wish it was into a loving, stable and secure environment. Sadly, this is not the case and millions of children every year are born in circumstances less than ideal.

Thinking about your original question...shouldn't any justice system try to alleviate any difficulty a child might face because of his/her origin and not make it worse? Therefore, any step made by the parents to confirm to the religious law, even after the fact, should be rewarded.

"Simple example to clear the doubt : Take any country in the world, if a couple is caught by the cops having sex or what you said "making love" , and the authorities send them behind the bar for having Illegal relationship, WHY because they were not legally married couple !!"

WRONG, most countries in the world do not consider having premarital sex illegal, in fact only a few Muslim countries do. The only way a couple (married or no) would be put behind bars for having sex is if they were doing it in public.

Secondly in the vast majority of the world religion and the law are quite seperate and religion is not enforced on the general populous. Therefore there is not the stigma attached to premarital sex or children anymore, and couples marry when they choose to, not just because they get pregnant. The act of marriage is an act of love, not the act of legalizing anything.

"I fight with love and I laugh with rage, you have to live light enough to see the humor and long enough to see some change." Ani Difranco

You are taking a U turn ... yes i agree we should look into our house first ... If you know how to Lock such channels pls do let me know here or send me pvt msg.. It will b a gr8 help !

Old ideas ? Wordings of "Holy Quran" is for life till the Day of Judgment and no one can changed a single dot in any verse as this is Promised by Al Mighty.

Why i mentioned that i was against this, coz i did not have enough knowledge at that time about it, but when i studied and discussed, i found the logic is correct to have more then One wife "is to help" not for the sake of Thrust for sex or I am fedup with one need other, thas wrong!!

I knew someone will reply what you said

Here is very simple example of Government strong links with Religion without mentioning the names:

Some countries have their Flags written RELIGIOUS VERSES and NAME OF GOD!

Some Countires have mentioned on their curriencie "WE TRUST IN GOD"

All I can suggest to you is start in cleaning up your own country first then come abroad and start there.

Then I suggest to you lock all those programms so you will not feel interupted in your TV shows. I also suggest you talk to Qtel or whoever has opened the link to those channels but I fear that many people here would not like that.

Government policy is not in my hands you have to deal with that one yourself, but again I would suggest that you sweep up in fromt of your own front door before starting to sweep at other front doors.

"Regarding 4 wives (or more then 1 wife), yes it is allowed in Islam r but based on terms and conditions written in the "Holy Quran".

"Law is not missused, if you study the reason based on religion you will agree, I was aslo against such act but when i went into depth and found that logic is corret !!".

To the above - well you are not up to date - whereas this was instituted to be helful it has come to be "when I am tired of one wife I will take another", not all mind you but it is there. Better for you to stay with your old ideas.

Divorce is not sinful (which I did not say) and sometimes a cure for a bad life - however there are nearly always chidlren there and the resposibility after the marrriage should be shared especially by the men to pay for the kids support.

Concern rasied here is based on the facts ... tell me which Religion allows to have Children before or without marriage?

We are not talking about societies .. if we take society in general then we can talk on Drugs/ Rape/ Killing/Roberry which is happening in every society due to lack of religious Knowledge !!

Religion and government must be two separate entities.. discussion that includes both topic is going nowhere.. Religion can be interpreted so many ways whereas Law (government) is written pretty much to the point and not open to too much interpretation..

I often wonder do men come up with these ideas out of sheer bordom or are a little fitish feel they want to be verbally bashed around a little?

I feel I am responsible to fight back in the name of the Matriarch Society. lol

How can you say it's nt our business ! I feel it is a responsiblity of every citizen in the Society to keep his Society clean ...

At the time of marriage ofcousre the religion is considered in any religion !! don't base your example based on few successful cases, we are talking about majority and in general.

Regarding 4 wives (or more then 1 wife), yes it is allowed in some religion but based on terms and conditions. Law is not missused, if you study the reason based on religion you will agree, I was aslo against such act but when i went into depth and found that logic is corret !!

Why divorcing a wife is SINFUL to you in anycase? If the divorce is justified this it's not sinful, yes if someone just give divorce to his wife for NO REASON it is sinful coz she is innocent or it can be otherway around !!!

One point I agree with you regd, hippocracy and meida behind this .. all those pplz have Illegal sex is wrong, I just moved to Doha, last week i got dish installed in my home, i was shocked to see around more then 20 channels showing OPEN SEX (FULL NAKED) via Telephone on the TV in DOHA. Second thing shocked me that i am living in a Muslim Country and how does Govt. Authorities are not aware of such channels ??

Now again, what is the role of religion/ government here? Why they are blind !

Not supporting your children is illegal.. having children without getting married is not in most countries, as long as you take care of your responsibilities to them..

with a visual on that comment...Our laps covered with tons of things...matches our shoulders...thanks..i needed that!!!...

As I said above the morality issue is in the woman's lap - literally as well as physically lol.

otherwise we'd be in Ripley's...

Kinda like the contraception issue...always end up being the female's responsibility...even with rubber..

and the ever popular comment..."SHE" got pregnant..last time I checked..took a male AND a female to do that..

Yes exactly what it is, but the bad reputation always ends up in the girls hands which goes to proove that the women are the soul upholders of the moral society. lol - What do you think - there was a matriac society so wonder what would happen if the tables were turned around.

What I find especially interesting it mostly seems to be men who post these forums.

The new Twenty first century moralities and values that cause havoc in our society, are just as old as Sodoma and Gomorra raging acts of sins. Different names with the same degenerative acts and destructive characters.

The Red Pope of Qatar Living

Abba, Abba, Padre!

If a guy has sex..he's a stud...

woman has sex..she's a slut...

Always brought up my boys not to believe that...because if guy does that also..he's to be considered a male slut..or the flip side..female studette.....goes both ways...

Good Morning,

just read you post, in my opinion it is not for you or me or anyone outside the couple to discuss what they are thinking because it is not our business.

Society has changed, and so have the relations between men and women, and the condition of marriage, not to mention, who is thinking about their religon and marriage at the time of the relationship, not many I am sure. Perhaps many think it might leadto marriage but we know this is notthe case.

In some parts of the world it is possible to marry four wives, this law is misused (although never mentioned) under any condition that it may fall, ending with divorce, abandoning etc. etc. is this also legal?? Divorcing a wife after there are kids is more than sinful to me - mostly leaving the women to do mother and father job.

Please don't dare talk about morals because these are used in anyway they are wanted

How many young men are searching on the net for a female partner just to do the ulimate which may result in the female bearing a child. So are these men going to marry that lady after having an illicit affair? Do they even think this is illegal according to their religon, no I am sure they don't.

A child can never be illegal as it is not reponsible for being put into life in the first place it didn't ask to be concieved. So if you say it is leagal before marriage it is equally legal after marriage.

Please think about the hippocracy that is going on not even behind the scenes, such as the men from GCC and other countries travelling to Thailand just to find a female to release their animal feelings - there is no connection to religon there,and definately no thought about marriage, is this illegal.

S......x has gained on importance basically through the media, (freedom of press) 30 - 40 years ago it was frowned upon to discuss this in public, but times have changed. A child out of wedlock was hardly considered a part of the society nowadays no one cares.

sex outside of marriage Speed...just some places. If the cops were to catch a couple having intercourse, whether married or not..that would mean they were out in public doing that, and yep..they'd get arrested...for public indecency.

My question is based on the Religion .... so as you mentioned "they do it because they decide they love each other and want to get married"

Is this permissiable is any religion? We are not blaming a Child here..

Simple example to clear the doubt : Take any country in the world, if a couple is caught by the cops having sex or what you said "making love" , and the authorities send them behind the bar for having Illegal relationship, WHY because they were not legally married couple !!

and if same couple having child and after 2yrs they go to the Religious authorities to register their marriage and their child then why such Religious authorities consider them as Legal wife and husband (b4 marriage)?

I don't think there's a country in the world that considers a baby born out of wedlock as "Illegal", as in, they aren't going to fine the child or imprison it for being born. The act of premarital sex in some countries is illegal, but thats about it. There's still a stigma attached in many conservative, religious, countries to being born out of wedlock, which is silly because it is never the fault of the child.

As for couples who marry after the birth of the child, they never do it to "legalize" the child (at least not in the West where it is no longer seen as such a stigma to have a child out of wedlock) they do it because they decide they love each other and want to get married.

"I fight with love and I laugh with rage, you have to live light enough to see the humor and long enough to see some change." Ani Difranco

Stong Peaceful Drug is needed, if u have pls share with me, because any other drug u posses is not gonna effect me... Good Night and have a Peaceful Dreams...,

Peaceful Drivers never gets the speeding tickets...

An Honest Answer reqiures an Honest personality... I'll try my level best to explain...

Sppeding means Violation...

I'm traveling to reach my destination (A Peaceful Society) some times i do speed up, and sometimes I have to slow down to study my Destination, but I can not stop or change my directions unless required. But during the Course of My Driving towards my Destination I keep My Eyes Open, all the time; Not Only for the safety of Human Being But Every other possible Creatures Might Come in my Way... it is My Utmost responsibility by the Nature's law to Care Everyone...

Stay off the drugs, or a least share. lol

i have to go answer a rule of nature now, no not that one! SLEEP!

Night all.

I don't go to mythical places with strange men.

-- Douglas Adams, The Long Dark Tea-Time of the Soul.

Peaceful people Don't Question, they Obey the Rules of Nature...

QUESTION: U can only QUESTION, about what U know, One can not Question anything he Don't aware of... So it is very important to Know the Circumstances of the Question and The Questioner...

I got a question to ask you away from your topic.

Is your driving as peaceful as your words? Be honest and sincere in your response.

The Red Pope of Qatar Living

Abba, Abba, Padre!

Peace is the key of knowledge... If U stay Peaceful U'll find that all the exsisting religions protects the right of women equally as well as other exsisting laws in this universe...

All religion requires parties to pay Monitary funding to the others needed by their law, the only problem is the hassel and the Implementaion of the laws and U know who implements these laws into action... it's US (male)... Y we are blaming here to the religion for not being kind enogh to protect Women's Right Whereas. the truth is that wherever MALE are in power they Always Violates the Right to Women under the name of Religious and it's laws...

I agree with everything you said though no.3 I'm not too sure about. However it's the loose terms 'legal' and 'illegal' that are dangerous ideas IMHO.

eg What laws make a relationship illegal? Only 'legal' as in being recognised in law for the purposes of inheritance, pension rights, tax concessions and the like.

It's only a piece of paper, but if you want to be married 'in the eyes of god' what happens when both are non-believers? Is that 'legal'?

Too many look round at others to find fault so as to claim some moral high ground.

I don't go to mythical places with strange men.

-- Douglas Adams, The Long Dark Tea-Time of the Soul.

If one decides(?!?!)to live within the moral framework of a religion that's fine, as you say, but I had the feeling(and I could be wrong)that Speed was trying to allude that this should be a 'legal' state for everyone.

I was just trying to point out to him, by questioning his motives for framing the question as he did, that most people in the world don't have religion as their centre and as a result the terms 'legal' and 'illegal' are meaningless.

Language is very important in molding a society, and I'm aware of the PC backlash (all for it in most cases), but the civil rights, womens and gay movements, amongst others, have shown that intolerance needs to be countered through language and descriptions first. Hence my alarm at words in these posts such as legal and illegal relationships, forbidden, basta*ds, shameful, illegal children.

Hey I know it wont change the world but you know what? it might just(a little bit)

I don't go to mythical places with strange men.

-- Douglas Adams, The Long Dark Tea-Time of the Soul.

Even if you are married and your husband wants to divorce you he can do so without any problem. He does not even has to pay for child care or even a penny to his wife other than tiny amount of legal fees.

Marriage should be a mutual agreement where if one party violates the terms it should be held liable for consequences which is definitely not the case in Shariah.

What rights does the wife has if her husband divorces her? Can she ask him for monetary support or child support. No

Atleast the situation in the West is much better where if you have a child whether you are married or not the husband has to pay for child support and for wife's personal expenses as well.

Anyways I am much better off staying single. No affairs, no wife, no children, I do whatever I want. go to bed late, come home late, always eat outside, thats the ultimate freedom

Peaceful Sex can bring More peaces in our Society.. hehehehe ...

About "Literally.." U R Absolutely Right... Since I'm not able to prove my point...

about Connection.. this is what I requested you guys to help me out in establishing connection in your SOCIETY, which is new for me and I'm STRANGER... Am I wellcome ?... then promote me in your society, i assure U that U'll find everyone attractive towards me... Oh Dear... I can See their Eyes... I can't Call it Horny, because seem like everyone wants to have me First... lol (all this under the name of Seeking Love and Soul mate)... Good Cover...

My opinoin has nothing to do with religion.

If a person is in a relationship and has a child without the intention of marrying, then I think it's wrong for many reasons.

1) You are saying you are not serious enough to 'stick around' (although a married person could still split).

2) You are telling your children that it's alright if you don't committ

3) The feeling of having a family in marriage and out of is totally different.

__________________________

You are sweet but just don't get it my friend(maybe literally!)

You have to have some sort of connection with somebody to have sex, it can be fleeting, but it has to exist. It's like you are saying " I'm horny and I hear you're very loose so what are you waiting for?" lol

And desperation is never an attractive quality.

C'mon PM back me up here. hope you feel ok.

I don't go to mythical places with strange men.

-- Douglas Adams, The Long Dark Tea-Time of the Soul.

Under the Peaceful Society, Supermacy of the law is very Importand, which Brings the Harmony and Joy in the Social life of all human Beings... Perfect laws make perfect Society... One Who Stays in Society and dosen't abide it's laws... can say and do whatever they feel is best in their interest... but those who believe in the Exsistence of Law ... follows only rule of nature In their Daily life, which protects them Morraly and ethically...

In the name of Searching LOVE for my soul mate... i would like to offer myself as an open candidate to everyone, who believe in pre-marriage sex... U are most welcom to reffer your memebers of Family to me as well, I know U guys pretend that U are very libral and won't mind what I'm saying... looking Forward for your prompt reply...

U Don't need to tell me..... I can Hear Your Heart beatings..

i appologise for my above remarks... I have no Intention to Insult anyone in anyway... Only I use this expression to covey my point to the Hardliners... Once again I Appologise from everyone... hope this is good enough...

I'm cool, not angry at all. Just posing a few questions to make people think about what they are actually saying.

religion sets the rules for relationships(or likes to think it does) and was mentioned in the OP.

If any female relation of mine who wasn't in a committed relationship, regardless of marriage, thought you were worth a bit of pre-marital 'how's your father' then who am I to say she's wrong?

This all springs from jealousy doesn't it guys? Come on you can be honest we're all men here. Let's count bedpost notches shall we. lol

I don't go to mythical places with strange men.

-- Douglas Adams, The Long Dark Tea-Time of the Soul.

Peace on U Adey...

I Just want to Say Coooool Down... and Forget about any religion just look aroud U as a Human Being... Since When Human Become So Libral that they allow their Daughters, Sisters, mothers to have a consentual sex witout any merraige contract... if so then pls allow me to join u...

lol .. they look like you and me !

we are living is a Fast Pace world .... so there is no SPEED limit to it ... more faster you go more closer you will be !

[img_assist|nid=44154|title=Speed|desc=|link=none|align=center|width=180|height=180]

why do you?

BTW what's an illegal child? What do they look like?

I don't go to mythical places with strange men.

-- Douglas Adams, The Long Dark Tea-Time of the Soul.

Well ... if you say this is great and that is great ... I don't think any Intelligent person will like your answer ...

My simple question is Why do we (Belivers) consider Illegal Relationship or Illegal Children as legal after Marriage !

** Albert Einstein stated a great truism about education and life when he said "The Important thing is not to stop questioning"

Peaceful Speed is Better for everyone; and for better understanding we all need study speed...

Though we have forgotton the Word "Bastard", but this does exists in the Dictionaries, This word was addopted by every Society, Religion, Culture and School of Thoughts... Thus This issue is not debateable coz we all now the Meanings of BASTARD (Pre-Marriage Baby)... It' a Shamefull Word For Parents... I know there r Lot of people these days who differs under the name of Freedom... but there Freedom will of Speech can not change the Meanings of Bastard...

If people want to get married to have kids - great

If people want to get married and decide to not have kids - great

If people don't want to get married but want to have kids - great

If people don't want to get married and decide to not have kids - great

If people of the same sex want to get married and decide to not have kids - great

If people of the same sex want to get married and have kids - great

Some people get married and don't live with each other - great

So, now what was the point you were trying to make?

I don't go to mythical places with strange men.

-- Douglas Adams, The Long Dark Tea-Time of the Soul.

Its not a matter of care or don't care ...

if you cannot answer the simple logical question then u better sit n don't care ...

This is a discussion forum ... every1 has right to raise the question and discuss the topic ..

Last time I check is called children out of wedlock.

Don't burn up too much on your pondering, but you sound like you are having serious morality issues. If you are, I'll advise you to step on the plate (marriage and feel it for your self) and don't think of the negativity that Hollywood or others life styles are commuting out there in not getting married.

There is lots of rewards in marriage.

The Red Pope of Qatar Living

Abba, Abba, Padre!

why do you care?

I don't really know what the term 'legal relationship' is or means. What laws? Where? Civil, criminal or religious? Most countries keep religion out of law making as there is no such thing as a unified or homogeneous religion in any country on earth.

I don't go to mythical places with strange men.

-- Douglas Adams, The Long Dark Tea-Time of the Soul.

adey .... its not like that what u think ! Asking a question is easy but to answer the question is not easy for "everybod's and anbody's" as you mentioned (incl yourself)

[img_assist|nid=44154|title=Speed|desc=|link=none|align=center|width=180|height=180]

Oh right I get it, on a religious pretext you can poke your nose into everybody's and anybody's life and order them what to do.

I don't go to mythical places with strange men.

-- Douglas Adams, The Long Dark Tea-Time of the Soul.