Iranian chocolate thief faces hand amputation

;)

Your words are greatly appreciated. Masalaama =D

FathimaH,

I am with you in most of your values. I just follow a more rational school of thoughts (Evolution theory versus Adam & Eve).

Apart from that, I do respect people like you and I am certain that if Muslims in general would have your posture in life, Islam's philosophy would certainly be more respected and admired.

To address one point you brought up "Honestly, do you think that in a endless universe where we happen to exist maybe among many other forms of life, would be a Superior Being that decided one day after millenniums of the existence of the planet, to reveal himself to an individual (who had a political agenda), indicating the road of "salvation"? see this is not what a Muslim believes. Rather we believe that Allah created us all and didn't leave us without a purpose and always sent prophets and messengers to us beginning with Adam(who we believe was the first human, the one Allah created with his own hands) and ending with Mohammed (Peace be upon them all), to inform us of our life's mission. Ie to worship our Lord, to enjoin whats good and to condemn what's evil.So between Adam and Mohammed there were many many prophets all of who were sent at different times to different people in a manner they would conceive according to that time,level of understanding, lifestyle, etc.

Allah says He revealed to us the Quran in a manner we would understand hence the "human like" tone. Would we comprehend a divine code?

Judging others is not of Islam either. Nay...rather we, if we are indeed true followers of Islam, believe that judgement belongs to God alone and its not for us to conclude who is "saved" and who is "ruined". See Nic we don't know this and Allahu alim.

And your saying "it’s quite impossible to discuss religion rationally with a Muslim person" is not fair on us all. Yes you will find plenty of irrational,harsh, and fanatical people in any faith but I can assure you I have had plenty of rational and enlightening peaceful discussions with non Muslims, both from my family and outside of it.However it is hard to go into detail in a forum like QL owing to the lack of time,space,etc not to mention my aching wrists =)

So in conclusion Nic..Lakum deenukum waliyadeen.. ultimately to each their own. provided no oppression or injustice is meted out to anyone we are free to believe and follow as we will and I hope and pray we all are of the successful.. Aameen!

FathimaH,

As I said, followers of any ideology are conditioned to think within that ideology, regardless if it’s a sect, a religion or politics.

Honestly, do you think that in a endless universe where we happen to exist maybe among many other forms of life, would be a Superior Being that decided one day after millenniums of the existence of the planet, to reveal himself to an individual (who had a political agenda), indicating the road of "salvation"?

Wouldn’t it be easier for this Superior Being just to design the world since its origins, as his wishes, instead of using a human speech of fear and threats to unsuccessfully reshape it, causing most of the Humanity's wars?

Can’t you recognize the human tone in the Quran’s words, as if that God was a human being like us?

How convinced and sure of ourselves we have to be to think that we are so special in this entire Universe, to have a dedicated Superior Being, remote controlling our reason to exist! And how dare we, in the middle of all that uncertainty dare to judge others that have different believes, even to kill in the name of all that silliness that we ourselves see it as sacred?

Anyway, these were only rhetoric questions, as it’s quite impossible to discuss religion rationally with a Muslim person.

I can answer for only myself here..yes. I have questioned and examined the proofs and decided on Islam as my religion. See I was not born into a religious family. Far from it! So I'm not a person who blind followed anyone,Alhamdullilah.I chose Islam after many years of researching and questioning.And I truly believe Islam and the Quran is revealed by God.That's what makes me a Muslim. Again if I believed all religions are man made then I will of course not be a Muslim. But that doesn't mean I've abandoned seeking knowledge be it of my religion or outside of it. In fact the more I learn the stronger I become in my faith..which ultimately is what IMO it boils down to in any deferred and debated matter and in any school of thought. belief,faith and conviction.

"I could go on at length as to why an unchanging Codi is a death nail to a civilisation"

Serious discussion consumes time and effort. So if you have a link(s) about that subject, it would be really helpful. I want to stretch the shores of my ignorance. :)

"Quoting the Qur'an or hadith to me as a source of authority is wasting your time."

My mistake, should've been addressed to rishimba.

"Why are you directing your post at me?"

Right again. I usually direct them to people who look into a subject from one angle only, showing them the other side.

It's always a pleasure to talk to an intellectual and a good reader, even with we have disagreement.

This is just to clarify previous misunderstandings.

FathimaH,

Can you question that the Quran was not revealed by Allah?

Can you admit that all religions are equally man made?

Just wondering, honestly, if you don’t agree with me that followers of any ideology are conditioned to think within that ideology, regardless if it’s a sect, a religion or politics.

Islam, as revealed by Allah in the Quran, and conveyed by the Prophet, does not discourage learning and questioning. In fact it is what we are commanded to do.."Know" before speech and action. The fact that many people abandoned seeking knowledge and instead preferred to blind follow was and is their downfall no doubt.

"He is quoting the Quran, because he can’t think out of that box."

No, but rather to show you what we have, and what your usual sources (your box) won't show you. Was that really difficult to understand?

N.B.:

Like adey said: hadith, not Quran

"If they have not stopped questioning perhaps today their science would have been ahead of the west. Instead, look where they are now, with their closed box approach!"

just read more, especially history. Can really help you.

Adey,

He is quoting the Quran, because he can’t think out of that box.

It’s the fate of those trapped in any set of believes, conveyed to them through an intensive and prolonged brain washing educative process, regardless the nature of those believes.

You pointed out an interesting point! If they have not stopped questioning perhaps today their science would have been ahead of the west. Instead, look where they are now, with their closed box approach!

the_prince ,

Unable to face your condition of a trapped individual in a set of outdated and froze-in-time-believes, you turn around the discussion and use the only weapon you have: unfounded personal attack.

Your assumption that you know anything about me is as pathetic as your prejudice!

A person that, by circumstances of his/her life, is strongly conditioned from very young age, to think within boundaries*, is unable to question those boundaries* and unable to see them as such, thus not a free thinker.

*replace boundaries by religion/cult/sect, and the bell may ring for you.

Firstly:

Quoting the Qur'an or hadith to me as a source of authority is wasting your time.

No offense, but as I am not a Muslim, I do not regard the Qur'an or hadith as any guide to morality.

Secondly:

Why are you directing your post at me? As a Muslim you should be directing those sentiments at the rulers of Islamic states and their populace - and on this basis I don't think 'Allah's Laws' will ever be implemented in full by anyone at anytime - so I'm afraid you will just have to live with that fact.

I could go on at length as to why an unchanging Codi is a death nail to a civilisation - I only have to mention the end of the Islamic Golden Age; a consequence of the fact that it was decreed (in the 12th Century?)that all questioning (ijtihad) of the holy texts should cease - the day when Islamic science died, never to recover. Islamic science was in advance of Europeans at the time - just think what this world would be like today, the Arabic world possibly at its centre, if it were not for that edict.

lol - I did go on at length - lol

many Iranians are certainly not in agreement with all that their government does and says. However they do not have the freedom or right to oppose them without fear hence remain silent. When it comes to oppressive regimes such as these we as Muslims always hope "May Allah guide them or break their backs"

the Zoroastrians are also persecuted. I used to meet a lot of Iranians in London back in 1981/2 - they fled Iran, all different types of people united by fear of what was happening to their country. Met some Iranian buisness men in Dubai recently - they despised Ahmedinajad and the rulers of the country.

'A'isha reported that the Quraish had been anxious about the Makhzumi woman who had committed theft, and said: Who will speak to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) about her? They said: Who dare it, but Usama, the loved one of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him)? So Usama spoke to him. Thereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Do you intercede regarding one of the punishments prescribed by Allah? He then stood up and addressed (people) saying: O people, those who have gone before you were destroyed, because if any one of high rank committed theft amongst them, they spared him; and it anyone of low rank committed theft, they inflicted the prescribed punishment upon him. By Allah, if Fatima, daughter of Muhammad, were to steal, I would have her hand cut off. In the hadith transmitted on the authority of Ibn Rumh (the words are):" Verily those before you perished."

Source:Sahih Musilm (book)

link:

http://www.guidedways.com/book_display-book-17-translator-2-start-10-number-4184.htm

Also in a year when there was hunger, khalifat Omar stopped cutting hands off for stealing during those bad times

and in recent years Sunni Muslims are facing a lot of oppression and injustice in Iran simply for following the sunnah!For example even having obvious sunni names like "Umar" "Uthman"and "Abu Bakr" (which are names of the companions of the Prophet who some shia claim apostated)can land a person in big trouble with the government.Even resulting in unjustly being jailed,tortured etc. Stuff like this is hardly reported outside of Iran but friends of ours happen to have close ties over there. See that's why it saddens me to hear people judging Islam and the shariah by what countries like Iran follow.

he was set free I believe.

fathimaH - Oh I agree that the Iranian legal system is as corrupt and unjust as one could get.

I read somewhere that the Iranian revolution is in fact a corruption of the way a Shia state should be run - the fact being that, in their code, no one can speak for Shia Islam and set down government rules based on Islamic law. Only the return of their lost Imam has the authority to do that. The 1979 revolutin was not a (shia) Islamic Revolution but a political Revolution. It should be remembered that the initial stand against the Shah came from secular Iran - that got hijacked late on by the religious sects. Then after Khomanei came to power the securalists, and the initial religious supporters, who objected to his handling of the Iranian State were 'disappeared' The Shah's prisons, toture chambers and death squads never missed a beat - just a new boss at the top.

Not to mention Mazen Abdul Jawwad. I mean the guy admitted to committing adultery on TV but still got off with his head in tact! So ultimately its in the hand of the law maker and we can only thus pray to be in lands where justice is practiced fairly with no corruption.

yes fathima, it actually depends on the ruler of the country. recall the case of the lebanese astrologer..

i heard that king abdullah was willing to let him free but his council of ministers wanted him to be beheaded.

i really dont know what finally happened to him.

but then do you agree with the way say countries like Iran implement or should I say twist the shariah?I'm sure we are in agreement that its how its implemented ultimately ie for justice and not oppression. And anyways I know as a non Muslim of course you will not be in agreement with all the shariah laws but as a Muslima I will never like that Allah's laws be altered to suit an individual or a nation. Agree to disagree =)

Honestly I don't know of any country today that actually follows all of the shariah laws in all its rulings and affairs. That said bare in mind some laws are such that they can be altered by the ruler as he feels fit and I as a Muslima also believe in following the ruler of any land I'm in.

adey / fathima,

obviously, my next question would be...as adey said, is it a positive step in the right direction?

having stayed in dubai for some 5 years, i really didnt observe the crime rate significantly higher than that in rest of the GCC countries. if dubai can do with a milder version of sharia, what's the problem in following it?

We perceive matters the same way then. But now we will have to disagree - unlike you I find the fact that a 'Buffet' Shari'a is a positive step in the right direction.

Its not supposed to be but it is..sadly! yes today many countries follow the "buffet" Shari'a.. ie pick what you like, twist what you can and completely omit that which you can't! And I repeat again(my broken record,sorry) Iran is far from being a country that follows the Quran and Sunnah the way it should be..period!

and that is the choice we made when we went here, keep to their rules, strange but strange choosing to go to a country that has so many rules.

the answer to your last question is Yes.

my question is...if sharia supposedly is THE penal code in islamic countries for muslims, why is there so much of variation in it across the GCC.

for example, for adultery, one may get stoned to death in iran or beheaded in SA while for the same crime the qatari court gives 1 year imprisonment and some 100 lashes. dubai court gives a prison sentence of 2 to 3 months only.

how many versions of sharia are there? or, can we interpret sharia to suit the country's policies?

"As an example, you are not allowed to question what the prophets Jesus or Mohammed said, are you?"

That's what you want to think. Sorry man, this is not how things work.

Surprisingly, WE DO!

But when Prophet Mohamed (may peace be upon him) says good things (which you aren't aware of), why shouldn't we follow him?

As for you, you follow a prophet named: MEDIA, never questioning what they tell you ... free thinker.

Does WMD of Iraq rings a bell? Ever questioned that (back then)?

What about 911?

What about holocaust? do even DARE to question the number ... free thinker?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_100

You need to QUESTION what you know about Islam? And WHO told you about it?

I don't need an answer to the last questions. Maybe as a free thinker, you won't question that either! :D

Think free thinker ... think!

Well, a Muslim friend of mine had all her jewelry stolen by another Muslim, in an Islamic country...hence, sharia law was applicable.

She was asked, after they caught the thief, but not the stolen goods, if my friend wanted this thief's hand chopped off...My friend said NO, as she did not want that burden on her conscience.

if u dont know about the shariah law then plzz dont post your stupid comments.. i think you didnt face any robbery or non of your valuable is stolen yet thats why you feel sorry for the the theif..

No matter how big or small it is, crime is crime.

the_prince,

A person that, by circumstances of his/her life, is conditioned from very young age, to think within boundaries, is unable to question those boundaries and unable to see them as such, thus not a free thinker.

As an example, you are not allowed to question what the prophets Jesus or Mohammed said, are you?

I am ;)

What you "witness on a daily basis here in Qatar" is AGAINST what Islam teaches

I Guess the sun won't tell you that Prophet Mohammed (may peace be upon him) said:

"All people are equal, as equal as the teeth of a comb. An Arab is no better than a non-Arab, nor is a white person over a black person, nor is a male superior to the female. The only people who enjoy preference with God are the devout."

Would they, free thinker?

Free of humanity, free of brain, free of ethics

Chairboy,

Thanks, it refreshing to see here people that are free to think ;)

for long centuries the western countries were killing muslims and others, they built their civilization on our blood, till now they stealing our resources, when they entered out countries they didnt care for our culture or even lives, now they r asking muslims to respect the europian countries while being there!! eventhough they come to europe to work at the europians not as occupiers with guns.... Can u tell me what will happen to france if it will stop stealing Africa for one weak?? what will happened to USA if it will stop stealing GCC and the world?? ur civilization didnt depend on the human rights which u even talk about it

the_prince,

besides what i witness on a daily basis here in Qatar, I also get an idea from comments like the one written on Sun, 17/10/2010 - 10:05am.

What if someone having a pistol and entered ur house to steal it, what do u think about this criminal? he deserves mercy? what do u think if u r working hard for 10 years and somebody stole what u had been gathering for all those years?? he deserves to be graced?? Islamis Shariaa is not against poor ppl even when they make mistakes, Iran and Saudia are not doing the right Islam, Islam is rights and duties, if u dont get ur rights the government has no right to ask u to do ur duties, the governments in the muslim countries are bullshyt.....

I think you need quite some time to understand.

Are you one of those narrow minded who read the news from ONE SIDE ONLY?

Ever tried to read the opposite side of the news?

Well, I do. Obviously, you don't!

I bet all the information you get about Islam come from non-Muslims and ANTI-Muslims?

warm_heart,

Doesn’t the danger reside precisely on all these different interpretations of radical barbaric written ideas?

Hmmm despite contributions to the contrary, thats extremely well precised NIC - you have actually captured in the space of a couple of sentences the nub of the problem - good work......

By the by, what is written about the punishment for the crime of adultery which lets face it is a daily occurence amongst men in the arab world??

The need to not expose what the quran dictates, gives indications that some don't want to expose reality as it threatens their paradigm ;)

Islam says the theft should should be with 14 conditions to cut the hand, it shouldn't be for a small amount, if the man is extremely poor it doesnt grant the judge also to cut the hand, it should prove that the thief is ready to make another crime to defend himself while stealing, Saeedkhan if u r ignorant dont attach whats not belong to islam to Shaiaa, stupid ppl like u are bad examples and disaster for islam

voila', the validation of my words

;)

Let me say that u r super stupid and u should be kicked out of Qatar, Dirty ppl like u should not even life in this life, Putang ina mo

"The well crafted brainwashing scheme in place and stubbornness of the followers of the sect in question, won’t allow them to open their eyes for reality!"

What reality?

Why don't YOU open your mind, and discuss using reason instead of using big words with empty content?

"Shariah law written by humans"

Correction would be:

"Shariah law WRITTEN DOWN by humans"

Then you'd say:

my bad English

No hope for Saeedkhan, how can he open his mind as long as there is no mind already??

saeed khan u did wht shud be done by showing them that what does QURAN say, but do u think whom u r talking to?? they r narrow minded man.... as they call us narrow minded....

they live in qatar and follow the laws here,, if they hit a raddar they pay penelty accordingly but when it comes to laws of saudia or iran they say them barbaric....

open up ur minds and stop thinking from ur bottom..... :p

Shariah law written by humans in the context of an uncivilized society of the 7th century, on its best, being applied on the XXI century in more civilized societies!

The well crafted brainwashing scheme in place and stubbornness of the followers of the sect in question, won’t allow them to open their eyes for reality!

Don't be narrow minded!

Everything has its pros and cons, the same way it is with death penalty:

Current use

PR China · Ecuador · Egypt · India · Iran · Iraq · Israel · Japan · Malaysia · Mongolia · North Korea · Pakistan · Russia · Saudi Arabia · Singapore · South Korea · Taiwan (ROC) · Tonga · United States ·

Past use

Australia · Brazil · Bulgaria · Canada · Denmark · France · Germany · Italy · Mexico · Netherlands · New-Zealand · Philippines · Poland · Portugal · Romania · United Kingdom · Turkey · Venezuela

Barbaric??! NO, but media stereotyping

lost marbles, Quran will never change even if it is 50th or 100th century! The laws of an Islamic country is according to Quran and those who are living in those countries should know the rules and regulations of that country.

This is the 21st Century!

what year is it in Iran now?

What do they do with all the hands? Do they give them back?