The Marte Dalelv case

I know that LLR, it was explained clearly and it makes sense sort of. However comedy is about feeding some people's misconceptions sometimes and making fun on their stupid opinions.

If you read the above discussion it was already made clear that 4 witness rules applies for adultery not rape but if you would like to bring wrong information and would like to insist on the same, then it becomes your religion, not the one you are pointing out and of course I strongly condemn your religion in this regard.

RC,, Don't use religions

Let's just laugh about the sketch

Woman attacked by a man in a dark street, she presses the button and four men immediately appear and point at the accused.

'I saw that!'

Case closed.

That sounds like a great comedy sketch. Woman attacked by a man in a dark street, she presses the buttom and four muslim men immediatley appear and point at the accused.

'I saw that!'

Case closed.

RC .. Lol, what to say then, they forced me to say that

I think every girl should have a device with a button for emergency, So when she feel that she will be raped ,, she have just to press the button and instantaneously four men will come out of the blue to wetness this.

I know I should not laugh but I couldn't help it sulieman

"she was unlucky not having any single wetness"

Read more: http://www.qatarliving.com/node/16232216?page=1#ixzz2a2DjOeu0

Now i see everyone of you focusing on the "Four witnesses rule", and you forgot that there were no evidence that the women in this story had been raped.

One single statment

Raping has nothing to do with this Rule, it was meant for other cases, to protect the society from the inaccurate news.

she was unlucky not having any single wetness.

but finally she is home now, and SAFE (I think).

some bad juilty people who are sent to jail and receive their punishment become good persons when they leave the jail, and they start to be positive persons in their community?

let us not call it arresting.

Let us call it a call for investigation.

Lol. Porn leads to rape. That cracks me up.

Let's not let the fact that this is actually untrue, and rape rates in the US have decreased since the mid 90s, get in the way of a good story.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/all-about-sex/200904/does-pornography-cause-social-harm

Why should you be arrested for just reporting a crime? If it was subsequently found out a woman filed a false rape claim then she should be arrested and sent to court but you can't arrest her if she said she was attacked?

If someone is beaten should the police arrest them as well just in case they did it to themselves?

and judged equally.

indeed, and the main sources for such cases is bad culture of how to look at girls and woman, and todays technology the porn websites and bad movies are the main sourceses in addition to the surrounding environment where these cases happen.

That's good news on the 4 witnesses for rape, now the middle east needs to take the next step and stop arresting women for reporting rape.

"Today in many countries such as India where rape rates increased"

-Straight Arrow

No I don't think it has, I think it gets reported more and it gets more publicity now. Before Indian men could rape away with little chance of getting caught, now the situation is a little different.

"Today in many countries such as India where rape rates increased"

-Straight Arrow

Straightarrow, do you think the rates are increasing, or is it that more of the cases are being exposed via technologies?

If I see some discussions in BBC etc I would use the comment sections. Misinterpretations have been done by even by their followers.. like Tabliban wants to kills someone who goes to english schools whereas companions were encouraged to learn foreign languages.Like Prophet PBOH ordered Zaid Bin Saabit Ansari to learn Siriani, Aramaic, Farsi and Habshi.

I have to thank you all, as without your questions I would not have done this research.

quite enlightening..

Thanks for valuable information.

and sorry as I misunderstood, now I want to imagine would the rate and number of corruption in its different ways will remain the same if there are strong punishment laws or it will decrease and we will have better community Thelonius?

readers not the book. Without context if someone takes a meaning, they could get wrong meaning. Especially in arabic pronunciation also counts.

For your and others information, 4 witness required is for adultery Not for rape. Rapes is treated as hiraba.

Furthermore, The Islamic response to rape is not just confined to criminal prosecution. Islamic jurisprudence also provides an avenue for civil redress for a rape survivor in its ‘law of jirah’ (wounds) whereby the state has to provide compensation to the victim.

May be the QL based scholars have not aware of Law of Jirah and About Hiraba crimes.

of hiraba (highway robbery,terrorism or promoting terror). Hiraba does not require four witnesses to prove the offence; circumstantial evidence,medical data&expert testimony form the evidence used to prosecute such crimes.During the time of the Prophet(pbuh),punishment was inflicted on the rapist on the solitary evidence of the woman who was raped by the perpetrator.Wa’il ibn Hujr reports of an incident when a woman was raped.Later,when some people came by,she identified &accused the man of raping her.They seized him&brought him to Allah’s messenger, who said to the woman,“Go away,for Allâh has forgiven you,”but of the man who had raped her,he said, “stone him to death.”(Tirmidhi&Abu Dawud)

A member from those men who are trying to rape a girl or a woman might change his opinion after he see the suffer of the woman or the girl and might convince the rest of the group who did not rape of this wrong act.

In the Article it was mintioned that the Sharia law requires 4 witnesses, why?

Because the Sharia law try protect the family connection to the extreme, see Thelonius in Western or Arabic countries many families got shattered because of roumers that the husband (good father) had an affair or the wife (good mother) had an affair, and then the children will suffer of staying without a father or a mother, therefore there must be 4 witness to prove that the wife or husband is guilty.

witnesses for adultery with the conditions of rape.In doing so, they coldly forget that asking a rape victim to bring four witnesses is inflicting further pain on her.Moreover, who in his right mind would stand & watch an act of rape take place, not stop the accuser & then appear before the court as a witness?

For adultery, if someone refutes a woman’s claim of innocence, the onus falls on that person to provide four witnesses. The woman can also deny the claim by taking a solemn oath & clearing her name in public. She does not need even one witness to prove that she has been raped. Nowhere in the entire Quran or the ahadith has it been mentioned that a rape victim requires four witnesses.

Thelonius

The Rape cases doesn't counted under the Four witnesses Rule, If a women went to the court and said someone raped me, they will not ask for four witnesses.

Today in many countries such as India where rape rates increased, we see the stories in the news that the rape is done by a group, also in some western movies there are some movies which shows a group of teenagers rape a girl, in some Arabic countries happen also? Why?

Before, foo.

Phew, i read the whole thread, but u still didnt understand one thing, do u add water to the tomato sause after or before adding the chicken??

The both are guilty, wherever that happens (bar, street, bus ,,,,etc)

And the woman can't act raped if she was not satisfied with the money she Got or whatever.

Men cannot be raped ! (by women i mean)

I'm sorry, I just got the impression that you thought there were women taking advantage of men, and using them for money. But you really meant to say was that men who pick up girls in bars are guilty of sex outside marriage.

The both did sex out of marriage, both Guilty

And i was talking in general fubar not about this women in specific

Well if men could keep it in their pants and not have intercourse outside marriage Sulieman, there would be nothing for anyone to worry about.

Whether or not she was raped or it was consensual sex, the man in all this still had sex outside marriage too. Why are we all obsessed with a woman's sexual activity, and ignore that of men?

I wonder how many girls/women there with one way ticket, searching for a sugar daddy, and how many of them Claims that they have been raped just bcs the man stopped Pumping money!!

I wonder what to do when you don't find a trace!

which is more hard to bring one witness or four witness?

Why 4 witnesses and not 1 witness?

that those who do such acts are animals and not only this, animals are considered than those people.

It's only rape when she is awake to say "no". At least that seems to be the mentality of the animals in this part of the world.

Although even an animal wouldn't have screw someone who is unconscious.

It is an alleged rape..

Rip Cord, my bad. I shall return to my room now so I don't get raped.

I think you're getting your stories mixed up SA. The woman who was given the date rape drug was British. The Norwegian woman was raped by her boss in his hotel room.

happens in many countries in different ways in different percentages.

If the Nerwegian business woman was trapped by these guys and they really planned for it then I am with her and I will pray that she will take her revange.

This is my all time favorite story of people getting up to no good in a bar:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/oct/31/davidpallister

The brother of the ruler of the United Arab Emirates is to stand trial in Switzerland for an alleged assault on an Italian-American businessman in the bar of an exclusive Geneva hotel.

Swiss prosecutor Daniel Zappelli has confirmed that 37-year-old Sheikh Falah bin Zayed bin Sultan al-Nahyan will be tried on charges of assaulting Silvano Orsi with a belt in the La Reserve hotel four years ago.

Mr Orsi, 39, claims that he was repeatedly attacked after refusing homosexual advances from the sheikh and has since been unable to work because of his injuries.

mimi, the woman was breathing so deserved to be raped. If she had just stayed in her room at home this would not have happened, so it is her fault.

And is this the case you're referring to?

http://www.thenational.ae/news/uae-news/courts/jail-terms-upheld-for-men-who-raped-briton-in-dubai-after-spiking-her-drink

Jail terms upheld for men who raped Briton in Dubai after spiking her drink

DUBAI // Two men who kidnapped and raped a British woman after spiking her drink at a Dubai nightclub have had their 10-year jail sentences upheld by the Cassation Court.

The verdict means Younis Jan Ali and Ameen Kaos Najati, who can now be identified, have exhausted the appeals process and must serve the terms. A third attacker remains at large.

Her drink was spiked SA. That means that one of them put the date rape drug into it, which means she had no idea what was happening to her or where she was going. She would have been in no condition to agree to sex or not to agree to sex, she would have been barely conscious.

"

Gali was working at hotel chain Starwood when her drink was spiked in the staff bar.

She awoke to find that three colleagues had raped her, but when she went to a hospital for help, they turned her over to the police and she was charged with illicit sex outside marriage."

look at:

"She awoke to find that three colleagues had raped her"

This tells me that she might over drunk and one of these three guys played on her or one of them invited her and she accepted the invitation.

In my opinion there are still missing points in the story, at the same time for me it is very clear that every act has a cause.

In my opinion the four witnesses is a big number and I believe it is on purpose to show that it is not easy to say that this woman is having a sex out of marriage and similarly saying that a man is having a sex out of marriage.

Throwing words is easy but the consequences can be big, Sharia law secures the persons life and family.

See here is a small example:

Woman A (not married) is jealous from the woman B (Woman B is happily living with her husband and children), Woman A decided to destroy the marriage life of Woman B and Woman A started lieing and saying Woman B is having sex out of marriage, in the court if there are no four witnesses then Woman B is freed and won the case, Woman A lost.

RC, it depends on the rules of the bar. Some let it, others don't.

I stay in hotels here all the time LOL. After all, some of the most beautiful spots are hours away in Fujairah or Ras Al Kaimah. Not to mention if you want to go from Abu Dhabi to Dubai for a night out it's cheaper to stay in a hotel than it is to take a cab back to Abu Dhabi.

I don't know if this is still true, but when I lived in Dubai wearing a dishdasha (thope) in a bar was not allowed. Here in Qatar, I've seen people doing this several times.

If I was a resident or had a national ID and I had a license, why would I be staying in the hotel to use the mini-bar?

Sounds like a bunch of people quite happy to make money off selling you alcohol, and quite happy to then turn around and arrest you for doing so.

What a bunch of hypocrites.

Is that true for Qataris in Qatar as well?

Anyone with a residency or national ID can get a license. You apply online.

So how do the locals get their licence to consume?

It can be legally consumed by people with a license. :)

Miss Mimi, so essentially the alcohol provided by the hotel cannot legally be consumed?

There are Sheikhs who own hotels make a packet of money by selling alcohol which it's illegal to drink. How virtuous.

RyanCanuck ,, Anytime :O)

Thanks for the explanation, Sulieman.

RyanCanuck

The Four witnesses is a Muslim rule but it is NOT applicable in the RAPE situation.

It is applicable if somebody went to the curt and said:

"My wife/Husband is cheating on me (Having Sex)"

The Judge here will ask him/her to bring Four witnesses to prove that he/she is right.

Fubar, the law in the UAE states that you can't drink without a license. This applies to tourists as well. It's generally not enforced unless you F-up like this poor woman and you will never hear of a hotel carding people (hell the liquor stores here don't card people). It's a lovely little trap.

Fubar, the mini bar is stocked by the devil to tempt you, he also leave bacon sandwhiches on your pillow each night to bring you to the dark side....

Another question: is the 'four Muslim witnesses' thing a real Muslim religious law?

What I'm confused about is if there is alcohol in the hotel minibar, and you drink it, can you then be arrested for drinking alcohol?

What am I missing here?

Brit: Well, I say good for her that the govie decided to step in and sort this mess out (kind of)

The awkward part is that the courts in the UAE are unable to sort situations like this in a balanced, civilized and proper way.

Yes lots of people been pardoned in the UAE.

Good news about this lass.

The three Brits who where jailed and claimed that they were tortured on drug charges have also been pardoned.

Cant wait to the documentary on the National Geographical channel in the program banged up abroad.

Fubar, don't think for a second that there is actually any 'law' behind anything in the Gulf.

The Sudanese guy who had sex and drank alcohol was pardoned and will also be released.

Makes you wonder they have laws the prohibit sex outside marriage and consumption of alcohol, if the minute there is any pubic outcry outrage the court verdicts are overturned.

Either sex outside marriage is a crime, or it isn't?

for once all the bad press and exposing their short comings must have been a bit to much for the cops in Dubai. Now will they also release the guy who happened to take pictures of a local guy beating up an Asian

I agree that the stance taken by the police is wrong and she should not have been jailed.

However, there is also no conclusive evidence that she was raped.

Is it just me, or someone is trying to justify the UAE’s injustice towards a raped woman? smth!

Yes this is how Governments support their people living in abroad.

Fubar - A pardon is the forgiveness of a crime and it does not mean that there was no crime earlier.

exactly, I suppose they were overwhelmed with all the unwanted publicity..just wondering if it was some Asian woman instead of a Norwegian woman then the outcome might have been a lot different

The sad thing is if an Indian woman gets raped in Dubai then you never hear about it and she would still be in jail.

She's been pardoned, which is good news for her.

Bad news for all those who were so adamant that the Emirati authorities were doing the right thing.

Even they have admitted they got it wrong.

......The firm was forced to let her go after she 'declined to have positive and constructive discussions about her employment status.'

...Does this actually mean that the brave and courageous woman was not willing to bow her head and take any stupid sh*t from this guys to keep quiet and to be docile like a housemaid

how about the so called rapist?

Adey ,, Good news :)

and is flying back to Norway as we speak.

http://dohanews.co/post/56134069124/dubai-pardons-doha-based-expat-who-was-jailed-after

She is a perfect example of not gaining conscious or controlled state medically after hours of booze.

I pity her innocence where she failed to keep to herself.

From what I have read, this is one of those cases which is hard to prove. It's his word against hers. The forensic reports show sex took place , but no sign of force.

I can't really understand why she allowed herself to be in such a situation..

As per me any female who looks for profiles will always be expecting such events to handle either in free countries or muslim countries (we all know it).

Having being said that, females have to really understand their thinking which can easily go the other way.

Why she reacted is still confusing after loosing herselves to that booze?

It was a good venue for a perfect date. :)

Jailed woman admits she initially told authorities sex was consensual

Dubai: Marte Deborah Dalelv maintains that she was raped. But new details have emerged from an interview with Gulf News, where Dalelv revealed she initially told authorities she had had consensual sex.

http://gulfnews.com/news/gulf/uae/crime/jailed-woman-admits-she-initially-told-authorities-sex-was-consensual-1.1211497

The UAE "justice" system is getting what it deserves.

Yes RIP..Globally media has raped the UAE justice system cuz of her stupidity.

Yes LLR, I just read the report in the Gulf Times that has more details.

Seems she was stupid and he raped her. I don't think you should go to jail for being stupid though. Otherwise 90% of QL should be in jail...

RIP I think if it was drug issue they would have find it by medical report.

Maybe he slipped her a drug to render her helpless

Yes.

It was 3 am+.

She came to his room.

She undressed and slept with her underwear in his bed.

Reason - to wake up early. Normally it is free in hotel.

There are two chances. They guy must have been too drunk or It could be possibly sexsomnia I am not sure he was diagnosed with that context.

She wasn't injured LLR, that's why the court ruled consensual sex. I think he took advantage of her drunken state and raped her. He's an animal and 13 months is a joke.

Yes Mimi. I understand. I still cant figure out how did she get injury as normally sleepyS used to be less aggressive..may be cuz both were drunk..

Mistakes from both sides.. I think trust was overvalued.

Surely it can't be that fun being a witness to a horrendous crime that you all stand around watching? A truly terrible law that needs revising pronto!

I'm not sure where they're getting the four men as witnesses thing. I think the Western media is assuming that. I've read of plenty of rape cases where that wasn't required. From what I can gather of this case is it was date rape and the UAE doesn't recognize date rape and the physical evidence didn't back up her story because she wasn't "damaged" enough.

Fatimah: Besides, Why would four (capable) men witness a rape and do nothing to stop it?

LLR, they were probably getting a bit frisky and then she told him no she didn't want to go any further and he should sleep on the couch. She then woke to him raping her. Date rape.

4 witnesses to prove a rape?? And how many idiots go about raping people in the full view of four adults? How do they come up with this law? It can't be from the Quran or the Prophet's legal ways because in the case of rape the Prophet(peace be upon him) never called for four witnesses in order to punish the culprit, but made his judgement based on the victims report and the evidences provided. (judging by the story of the woman raped mentioned in the hadiths)!

So how did such a law come into being then?

And how can anyone dismiss date rape as not being akin to rape but rather the victims own fault? A truly unjust situation and my heart goes out to the woman if all she says is true!

By the way I really dont know why did she sleep on his bed. As long as I know in business visit they book individual rooms.

"The woman undressed and slept in her underwear on the bed while the Sudanese slept on the couch for a while before he moved to a bed beside her, she claimed."

She should of cracked her heard open with a rock or jumped in front of a speeding truck to achieve of ( OOOUCH! now that’s definitely rape)! level.

or u can bite your bAll5. :)

MN, this gulf news article explains that there was very little physical damage to her (because he raped her while she was asleep):

http://gulfnews.com/news/gulf/uae/crime/norwegian-woman-marte-deborah-dalelv-jailed-for-having-consensual-sex-with-boss-1.1211513

Which is also why the courts ruled out rape. (rolls eyes).

I'll just say she was really drunk and raped me, I'll punch myself a couple of times so I have the bruises...

Pretty much Rip Cord. But make sure you get her good and passed out first, because if there's physical damage to her than you might get a slightly longer sentence....like 18 months instead of 13 months or something.

In the age of D.N.A evidence and advanced science, I don’t see the need for the (four Adult men) lying-in wait for a rape crime to happen!

So all I have to do Miss Mimi is convince a lady to come to my room to see my drawings, give her some booze and I can rape away?

The issue with the case is that it was Date Rape, which the UAE doesn't recognize as a crime. As far as the courts in the UAE are concerned, she was in the room with him of her own free will therefore it's consensual sex. She was also consuming alcohol illegally, so she didn't have much of a hope of a fair trial.

This is why I would NEVER report rape in the UAE.

And what the 4 adult (Men) are supposed to witness in a rape crime?

We discussed it together with the Honorable Emirati thread http://www.qatarliving.com/node/16164116

QL probably had one but it got deleted. Woman are treated as jewels in the gulf and are never raped.

Tragic Case indeed, UAE interpretation again under the spot light!