This is appalling, and I think that western countries should indeed pull out, let them all sort their own issues.
On another note, I cannot judge an entire country based on the actions of a few. I for one don't like the generalizations when they are pointed in my direction and can appreciate it probably goes both ways.
Politicians have our young men in such countries fighting for the rights of people who don't want them there. Political interest is the fuel, but loyal soldiers (and their families)who are there because they want to make a difference are the ones paying. ____________________________________________________
"Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock - Will Rogers"
Usually, soldiers are sent into battle at the whim of the politicians. They go to do a job asked of them. They know that they are putting their lives at risk and may lose their lives.
However, in this case, a person whom they trusted betrayed them. He took their lives for something they were not responsible for.
Most of the westerners who made the case for all those were those in power. Did they blame the common man for it?
Were these soldiers killed in the comfort of their home or in a war zone? If they were murdered in their own homes you could feel pity towards them. But when they are in a war zone, the way they get killed doesnt matter. Whether by treachery or in a battlefield.
They are fighting a wrong war there and whichever soldier gets killed in whatever manner, they deserve it.
YOu can have your own interpretaion of events unfolding in front of your eyes and mine can be entirely different to yours.
No use criticising me for that, whereas you revel in that.
But I realize that doesn't fit with your anti-Western agenda. Here it is in case you missed it:
Should I make excuses for Abu Ghraib saying Arabs brought it upon themselves with 9/11? NO. NOTHING EXCUSES SUCH THINGS.
There are many Western people who made excuses for the war in Iraq & Afghanistan, Abu Ghraib, and Gitmo. I am not among them. But you seem to be among those willing to excuse anything if it means a Westerner is killed. That's what is simple.
when someone commits the indefensible act. Should I make excuses for Abu Ghraib saying Arabs brought it upon themselves with 9/11? NO. NOTHING EXCUSES SUCH THINGS.
Whether you are part of the PC brigade or just filled with hate -- nothing excuses these actions.
I wish everyone would pull out of all wars and leave the wackos to kill each other. Just don't come crying when you have dictators and corrupt rulers who don't care about your human rights. May we get the leaders we all deserve.
I agree with your sentiments. However, Afghanistan has always been feudal andw allegiances have been bought and sold on a regular basis.
I totally disagree with our troops being there in the first place. In addition, I am ashamed that Brown has come out and supported an overtly corrupt presindent Karzai.
I repeat "I want UK troops out of Afghanistan". Not just because of my son. But because we should never have been there in the first place.
But equally I do not agree with what was going on in Afghanistan before we got there. I have read books on the region pre Russian invasions, and it was a beautiful country with beautiful people. Spoiled by the corrupt few.
I don't know what the solution over there is. I know ultimately we are going to pull out, and until then there is going to be loads of lives lost needlessly on all side.
And I pity those that are going to fall back into the hands of the corrupt again. Well the even more corrupt again.
Perhaps you will choose to go and live there when all western powers have gone. It sounds like you have no problem with the previous regime.
This is a horrible thread, and this is my last post in it.
timebandit, I can understand your feelings as a dad. I know that if you had the chance,you would have stopped your kid from going there.
From what you must have been seeing recently, has things changed for the better or worse in Afghanistan?
YOu see more anarchy than that was there when the Taliban were ruling.
The chaos that you see right now looks somewhat similar to the last days of the Russian occupation in Afghanistan.
innocent families get bombed either by the rebels or the NATO forces. Te only cry that you see is when a few soldiers are killed. What about the innocent civilians who get killed?
He doesnt deserve what he is gonna get there in the first place. Blame your politicians. the poor soldiers are reaping what the politicians have sowed. Even if he doesnt get injured, do you think he will be free of the psychological scars that will effect him??
You are too naive to think that British went there to give democracy there.
I am not out here to hurt anybodys feelings.
I dont blame the soldiers at all. But they are fighting for a worthless cause anyway.
according to Christina Lamb in The Sunday Times, citing two Afghans who knew Gulbuddin, was that "he had been brutally beaten, sodomised and sexually molested by a senior Afghan officer whom he regarded as being protected by the British."
Did he shoot the guy abusing him? What a coward waiting for men to lay down their weapons so he could just mow them down.
Stealth... thanks to democracy you can say anything you like here. But wind your neck back in for a moment and think about what you are saying.
I want UK soldiers out of Afghanistan. I don't want my son to be killed trying to give democracy to people who don't want it. And I don't want someone like Stealth telling me that he reaped what he sowed and that he deserved it.
that's a new one to me.....I have never heard of your theory that western troops invaded those countries you mentioned to liberate women from sexual assult from their own menfolk?
But if you say so it must be true I guess....have you thought of telling the western governments that that was the reason they invaded....I am sure they would like to know.
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
Claims that British soldiers recreated the torture conditions of Abu Ghraib to commit the sexual and physical abuse of Iraqi civilians are being investigated by the Ministry of Defence.
The fresh allegations raise important questions about collusion between Britain and America over the ill-treatment of Iraqi prisoners during the insurgency. In one case, British soldiers are accused of piling bodies of Iraqi prisoners on top of each other and subjecting them to electric shocks, an echo of the abuse at the notorious US detention centre at Baghdad's Abu Ghraib prison.
that was the same logic that the westerners used to launch their attacks in Afghanistan, Iraq, Somalia etc.. isnt it Adey? OR where the reasons different?
"There was a horrified reaction across Britain last week when a 25-year-old policeman called Gulbuddin working in a police station in the Nad Ali district of Helmand killed five British soldiers when he opened fire with a machine gun on them. But the reason he did so, according to Christina Lamb in The Sunday Times, citing two Afghans who knew Gulbuddin, was that he had been brutally beaten, sodomised and sexually molested by a senior Afghan officer whom he regarded as being protected by the British."
this is a really sad news, no one can understand why politicians are doing this. they are someone's parents, child, husband, and they lost their lifes, for the sake of what??? for which cause???
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Brit, in your words it could be betrayal. But if he was a mole, he made use of the circumstances to make a big impact.
Now what guarantee will the foreign troops have that the Afghans who are with them may turn against them or not?
This is appalling, and I think that western countries should indeed pull out, let them all sort their own issues.
On another note, I cannot judge an entire country based on the actions of a few. I for one don't like the generalizations when they are pointed in my direction and can appreciate it probably goes both ways.
Politicians have our young men in such countries fighting for the rights of people who don't want them there. Political interest is the fuel, but loyal soldiers (and their families)who are there because they want to make a difference are the ones paying. ____________________________________________________
"Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock - Will Rogers"
Usually, soldiers are sent into battle at the whim of the politicians. They go to do a job asked of them. They know that they are putting their lives at risk and may lose their lives.
However, in this case, a person whom they trusted betrayed them. He took their lives for something they were not responsible for.
Each one has his own interpretations.
Most of the westerners who made the case for all those were those in power. Did they blame the common man for it?
Were these soldiers killed in the comfort of their home or in a war zone? If they were murdered in their own homes you could feel pity towards them. But when they are in a war zone, the way they get killed doesnt matter. Whether by treachery or in a battlefield.
They are fighting a wrong war there and whichever soldier gets killed in whatever manner, they deserve it.
YOu can have your own interpretaion of events unfolding in front of your eyes and mine can be entirely different to yours.
No use criticising me for that, whereas you revel in that.
SOme things never change.
But I realize that doesn't fit with your anti-Western agenda. Here it is in case you missed it:
Should I make excuses for Abu Ghraib saying Arabs brought it upon themselves with 9/11? NO. NOTHING EXCUSES SUCH THINGS.
There are many Western people who made excuses for the war in Iraq & Afghanistan, Abu Ghraib, and Gitmo. I am not among them. But you seem to be among those willing to excuse anything if it means a Westerner is killed. That's what is simple.
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
that is what i also pray for.
maybe my reading comprehension is low.
But when you as a westerner comes and claims here that
"What always appalls me is the excuses so many here make
when someone commits the indefensible act. "
There are many ways that this statement can be construed.
"MAKING EXCUSES DOESN'T DO ANY GOOD! IT DOES NOT ABSOLVE YOU OF RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR ACTIONS!"
Tell that to your own people working in different arms of the govt.
The same thing has happened here. The British higher ups allowed the torture to take place and the poor soldiers paid for that. Its simple........
will happen. I guess you also pray that your own country will not make mischief with its neighbors, too :-P
BTW, I never said only people in the East make excuses but I see that your reading comprehension is low so let me repeat it for you:
MAKING EXCUSES DOESN'T DO ANY GOOD! IT DOES NOT ABSOLVE YOU OF RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR ACTIONS!
Now do you get it?
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
As if only the people over here make those excuses.
Even you yourself are not immune to this.
Is it possible for the west to leave anyone alone? They never get a proper sleep unless they are upto some mischief in some corner of the world.
when someone commits the indefensible act. Should I make excuses for Abu Ghraib saying Arabs brought it upon themselves with 9/11? NO. NOTHING EXCUSES SUCH THINGS.
Whether you are part of the PC brigade or just filled with hate -- nothing excuses these actions.
I wish everyone would pull out of all wars and leave the wackos to kill each other. Just don't come crying when you have dictators and corrupt rulers who don't care about your human rights. May we get the leaders we all deserve.
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
I agree with your sentiments. However, Afghanistan has always been feudal andw allegiances have been bought and sold on a regular basis.
I totally disagree with our troops being there in the first place. In addition, I am ashamed that Brown has come out and supported an overtly corrupt presindent Karzai.
Shame on us!
I repeat "I want UK troops out of Afghanistan". Not just because of my son. But because we should never have been there in the first place.
But equally I do not agree with what was going on in Afghanistan before we got there. I have read books on the region pre Russian invasions, and it was a beautiful country with beautiful people. Spoiled by the corrupt few.
I don't know what the solution over there is. I know ultimately we are going to pull out, and until then there is going to be loads of lives lost needlessly on all side.
And I pity those that are going to fall back into the hands of the corrupt again. Well the even more corrupt again.
Perhaps you will choose to go and live there when all western powers have gone. It sounds like you have no problem with the previous regime.
This is a horrible thread, and this is my last post in it.
I fully agree ....
Time for Brown to get his head out of his arse and get the troops out !
timebandit, I can understand your feelings as a dad. I know that if you had the chance,you would have stopped your kid from going there.
From what you must have been seeing recently, has things changed for the better or worse in Afghanistan?
YOu see more anarchy than that was there when the Taliban were ruling.
The chaos that you see right now looks somewhat similar to the last days of the Russian occupation in Afghanistan.
innocent families get bombed either by the rebels or the NATO forces. Te only cry that you see is when a few soldiers are killed. What about the innocent civilians who get killed?
stealth I can't debate with someone like you. I just keep telling myself there is good if everybody.
He doesnt deserve what he is gonna get there in the first place. Blame your politicians. the poor soldiers are reaping what the politicians have sowed. Even if he doesnt get injured, do you think he will be free of the psychological scars that will effect him??
You are too naive to think that British went there to give democracy there.
I am not out here to hurt anybodys feelings.
I dont blame the soldiers at all. But they are fighting for a worthless cause anyway.
timebandit, i'm sure your son will be fine but can you convince him not to go? or is it must? it's a very dangerous place out there
...listen to the sound of silence....
according to Christina Lamb in The Sunday Times, citing two Afghans who knew Gulbuddin, was that "he had been brutally beaten, sodomised and sexually molested by a senior Afghan officer whom he regarded as being protected by the British."
Did he shoot the guy abusing him? What a coward waiting for men to lay down their weapons so he could just mow them down.
Stealth... thanks to democracy you can say anything you like here. But wind your neck back in for a moment and think about what you are saying.
I want UK soldiers out of Afghanistan. I don't want my son to be killed trying to give democracy to people who don't want it. And I don't want someone like Stealth telling me that he reaped what he sowed and that he deserved it.
He took revenge for the treatment meted out to his friends by people under British protection.
America took revenge on the Afghans for not handing over Osama who was under Taliban protection.
The motive was the same.
that's a new one to me.....I have never heard of your theory that western troops invaded those countries you mentioned to liberate women from sexual assult from their own menfolk?
But if you say so it must be true I guess....have you thought of telling the western governments that that was the reason they invaded....I am sure they would like to know.
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
and I say it again,,,,the place isn't worth one life, let alone a the number that have been lost in th epast while.
Pre-historic, barbaric, clueless and heathen....terrible people.
The british version of Abughraib :
Claims that British soldiers recreated the torture conditions of Abu Ghraib to commit the sexual and physical abuse of Iraqi civilians are being investigated by the Ministry of Defence.
The fresh allegations raise important questions about collusion between Britain and America over the ill-treatment of Iraqi prisoners during the insurgency. In one case, British soldiers are accused of piling bodies of Iraqi prisoners on top of each other and subjecting them to electric shocks, an echo of the abuse at the notorious US detention centre at Baghdad's Abu Ghraib prison.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/britains-abu-ghraib-did-britain-collude-with-us-in-abuse-of-iraqis-1820545.html
well this was already understood by the people in this region bu the westerners thought everything would be hunky dory
who was protecting the guy?
Another Afghan or the higher ups in the British army there?
So that's way Iraq was destroyed mainly by Iraqis fighting between themselves ..
you sow what you reap........
Timebandit: I am sure he will be safe. Hopefully, we'll be out of Afghanistan by the time he finishes his training :O)
Stealth : As per the story, the guy was brutalized by a fellow Afghan, so why take it out on foreigners ?
This thread scares the living daylights out of me... my son is just joining the army.
that was the same logic that the westerners used to launch their attacks in Afghanistan, Iraq, Somalia etc.. isnt it Adey? OR where the reasons different?
with that sort of logic I hope to see you champion Afghan women who massacre the entire male population in the Tribal Areas.
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
look at the twist in the tale >
"There was a horrified reaction across Britain last week when a 25-year-old policeman called Gulbuddin working in a police station in the Nad Ali district of Helmand killed five British soldiers when he opened fire with a machine gun on them. But the reason he did so, according to Christina Lamb in The Sunday Times, citing two Afghans who knew Gulbuddin, was that he had been brutally beaten, sodomised and sexually molested by a senior Afghan officer whom he regarded as being protected by the British."
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/patrick-cockburn-the-general-is-right-liam-fox-is-wrong-1819743.html
Agree with you wholeheartedly.
Start the petition .. I'll sign :O)
I'm at a point where I think that all Western troops need to pull out of there.
RIP to those who lost their lifes. You will be in my prayers.
People are sacrificial lambs for politicians.
cos he likes the view where his head is, right now.
But I agree, we shd send the PM's kids to warzones first. Leadership By Example, I say.
the world's gettier crazier at a rate faster than the depletion of the ozone layer! :-o
Going to church no more makes you a Christian than standing in a garage makes you a car. ~ Garrison Keillor
condolences to their families and to the families of the other two afghan policemen killed with them
may they all R.I.P.
Yalla!
this is a really sad news, no one can understand why politicians are doing this. they are someone's parents, child, husband, and they lost their lifes, for the sake of what??? for which cause???
i post a link to the news
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/campaigns/our_boys/2715111/Massacred-as-they-ate-lunch.html
Yalla!