Muslims in the military
A country house in Hampshire was the rarefied setting for the second conference hosting Muslims serving in Britain's armed forces.
Those who gathered at Amport House - the home to military chaplains from all faiths - came for a mix of practical advice and spiritual support, talking of how the military had done much to accommodate them but arguing that there was more to be done, including in the field of recruitment.
Close to 400 Muslims serve in the military - about 300 in the Army, 50 in the RAF and 40 in the Navy.
Many come from the Commonwealth as well as from Britain's established Muslim communities - Gambia and Ghana were well represented.
The Navy and RAF have a sprinkling of high-ranking officers, including group captains and rear admirals, but the Army appears to have somewhat fewer role models for young Muslims joining up.
Imam Asim Hafiz, who has served as the Muslim chaplain for the last three years, organised the conference and is in charge of ministering to the spiritual needs of Muslims in all three services.
"They are soldiers but at the same time they have a faith identity, a Muslim identity," he told the BBC.
He went on to explain that the conference provided Muslims with advice on tackling some of the issues they may face - like how to talk to superiors about getting regular prayer time, or having halal food available or fasting.
Some of the older officers explained that when they joined the issue of halal food was not understood at all, leading to a diet that consisted largely of potatoes and peas.
But while progress has been made, there was a sense that more work needed to be done to educate officers on how to deal with Muslims in their ranks and what it means to practise a religion.
"It is an education for the individual on how to raise these issues and an education to the hierarchy that these are just different requirements that need to be considered," explained one flight lieutenant in the RAF.
The proportion of Muslims in the armed forces is far from reflecting the numbers in society as a whole, and recruiters acknowledge the Muslim community is harder than others to operate in.
"When they go back to those communities they are making the statement that there is a possible career within the armed forces," explained Imam Hafiz.
"Not only Muslims, but also the wider community, think that Muslims do not serve in the military.
"I think that's one of the strong messages they take back - that Muslims are just as committed to the security of this country and the defence of this country."
There may be few of them but some Muslims in the military have made the news.
L/Cpl Jabron Hashmi, from Birmingham, died two years ago in Afghanistan, one of the first soldiers to be killed as part of the deployment to Helmand province.
There was also the conviction of a Birmingham man in January 2008 for a plot to kidnap and behead a British Muslim soldier, which has raised issues of security and leads some attending the conference to prefer to talk anonymously.
If I can show them I can be a good soldier to the best of my ability, they won't have any qualms with me doing whatever else I want
And beyond the headlines there are also deeper questions for Muslim soldiers when Britain is currently engaged in two major military operations in Afghanistan and Iraq, both predominantly Muslim countries.
Those attending the conference acknowledged that the political nature of these conflicts did raise issues and lead to more questions from friends and family.
Bob Ainsworth, who spoke at the conference as minister for the armed forces, acknowledged the challenge.
"I think it is important that we do our best to make ourselves attractive to Muslims in terms of our recruitment," he told the BBC.
One army recruit talked of going to religious elders for advice on whether or not to join.
They had no objection to his signing up, but the main advice they gave him was not to lose his religious identity when he joined, something he said was a danger, particularly with some aspects of army life such as the enjoyment of alcohol.
Once he joined, he found that engaging in army banter soon helped overcome initial distance from his comrades who quickly became used to his beard and the practising of his faith when it came to issues like food and prayer.
"If I can show them I can be a good soldier to the best of my ability, they won't have any qualms with me doing whatever else I want.
Oh I work with people now who just take a quick second to pray. It's very easily accommodated for. The crack about the Muslims at my Uni is that they were given special permission to pray during the exam period, only it was discovered that instead of praying, many were taking the opportunity to cheat, so they lost their privilege.
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I worked with a couple of guys who prayed regularly at work.. They did it during their alloted lunch or tea breaks..Everything can be accomodated if a person is willing to try.
We Muslims are allowed to eat Kosher meat. In fact it says in the Quran that we are allowed to eat the food of the Jews and Christians so it means we can eat Kosher food. Moreover I have relatives in UK, US & Canada and they always eat Kosher when there is no Halal available. There are Kosher restaurants which do not obviously serve pork and alcohol and the meat they serve is slaughtered the halal way too..
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NIL ILLEGITIMI CARBORUNDUM
Well if some of the Muslims I went to uni with are any indication, they'll take the chance of prayer time to smoke and cheat on exams.
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i imagine.
I would be intrested to see how things will work out.
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NIL ILLEGITIMI CARBORUNDUM
Well the military could make it totally even-stevens and give the other soldiers 20 minutes to pray too. I wonder how many would turn it down?
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Some prayers only have 2 surah's to do.. others have 3 and others have four...maximum time to pray is about 7 mins.. i think its the wadu that takes the other 3 mins
Never say Never for fear of Forever!!
U R right Paul.......
Its 15-20mins in order to pray peacefully and with consentration .....
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NIL ILLEGITIMI CARBORUNDUM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you only need about 5 minutes to pray...they could do it during a smoke break.
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I never met any Muslims in the Army when i served, but that is going back a long time. But how could they get 3 times a day (i think) to pray, cos everybody else would want that same amount of time off.Unless they did it during their 10.00 and 15.00 breaks. Afterall, equality for all is supposed to be the militaries stance.
I didnt say all Muslims had beards, i just said Beards are forbidden in the Army.
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NIL ILLEGITIMI CARBORUNDUM
I'm sure the Muslim soldiers are allowed to Pray during the duty time..
In a combat situation, things would be different.
All muslims don't have beards..
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NIL ILLEGITIMI CARBORUNDUM
Well there you go. I never knew the military took a weekend. :)
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8-300 on fri.
Obviously, if yer in a war zone or on a ship then yer working hours will vary.But most of the time its just like a civillain job.
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NIL ILLEGITIMI CARBORUNDUM
Correct me if I'm wrong Mr. Paul, but soldiers don't get a traditional weekend anyway do they? Don't they work shift?
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The Weekend is saturday/Sunday, with religious soldiers going to church on Sundays.
But Muslims Holy day is Friday, but they wouldnt be allowed to have that day off to pray.
Fasting...Ok, no big deal there.
Beards are banned in the Army, only allowed in the RAF i think.
And like the guy says, The banter between him and his collegues helped break down any convictions on either side.
After all, in a war zone, yer dont fight for Queen and Country, yer fight for yer mates.
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NIL ILLEGITIMI CARBORUNDUM
I guess. That would suck though.
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I believe that there is some argument between different scholars regarding this issue. Many muslims don't regard Kosher meat as being "allowed" because the supplication has not been said.. So perhaps he's one of them..
Trust me preparing hilal is much simplier thaan preparing kosher, I've done a few functions in Sydney that involved kosher and for lack of a better word it's a pain in the A*&, as a lot of the time the rabbi's stay to make sure you adhere to the rules you have to take every single knife that you have in your arsenal as you cannot cut fish with the same knife you cut your vege with and you can't use your meat knife to prepare the chicken etc etc.
See I thought as much, which is why I was confused when the guy said he could only eat peas. Because the British military would have been serving kosher for a long time.
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you are correct. however, thes were soldiers who were basically "serving in the Indian army" and assigned to the British army.. Just like the Poles in the second world war..
They regarded themselves as part of the Indian army.
In the UK and I suppose Canada, before "Halal" meat was available, many Muslims shopped for Kosher meat.
I believe that the method is the same.. ie.. The animal is slughtered , and all blood allowed to flow out . (No stunning first)
The only diference is that Muslims have to recite a prayer as they slaughter the animal.
So really, back in the day, Muslim British soldiers could have eaten kosher food?
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the meat is prepared the same way although the prayers said over the animal to be slaughtered are different(oblivously) as i said Kosher is the whole preparation not just the animal and encompasses all food to be prepared not just animal meats. It is also the reason behind the different coloured chopping boards that most commercial kitchens use these days to avoid contamination between different foods.
Hmm, but to my knowledge kosher meat is prepared the same way as halal meat right?
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To my knowledge the difference between Kosher and hilal are hilal is only a way of preperatoion of the animal for slaughter and the slaughtering process. Kosher is a whole preperation of the way things are cooked, each different type of food is broken down into sections such as, meat, fish dairy, poultry, fruit& veg and are all prepared in separate kitchens so they dont contaminate one and other and each seprate preparation area has been blessed by a Rabbi, this is just a basic break down of what kosher is there is a lot more to it than what I've said but it gives you an idea of how it goes.
Just out of curiosity, but what is the difference between kosher and halal? Because I can imagine the Brit's had kosher meals for a long time.
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brit, the earlier generations of Indians and Pakis served in a much larger number in British army. The British relied a lot on subcontinent soldiers in WWII
The majority of muslims in the UK are from India, Pakistan and Bangladesh. They earlier generations never really regarded themselves as British and to join the Army or Police was unthinkable.
The new generation has less connection with the original homeland and see themselves as British first.
The difference is that its only the second/third generation Muslims who are beginning to count themselves as totally British. Hence , they are now beginning to enter mainstream workplaces.
America has always been a country of immigrants who have thought of themselves as American.
Secondly, the USA military is now seen as a "gateway" to getting nationality. So many foreign Muslims are now joining up.