The Real Elephant in the Room

?

Islam?

MN i would rather say you are too good to be so irrational... :)

Miss Mimi .. whats done? i still see that fat woman on your pic though i have nothing against fat women... :)

Aakhri Pasta... finish your pasta... please.

You too my brother!

FathimaH: always the voice of reason, faith, knowledge, humbleness and love on Ql.

GBU sister.

Not all thafseers are the same, though the Quran itself in Arabic remains untouched. That's where the people go astray in. Trying to make their own Thafseers of the Quran.

And Marco:You are right,some verses in the Quran had been abrogated and again only with the correct Thafseer will you know this. A Good example being the verses on alcohol.

Anyways the bottom line is all this knowledge can only be gained by reading the Quran in Arabic, then seeking out it's most reliable Thafseer. We have to seek knowledge as Muslims and not try to assume we know it all. Many times certain rulings may not be found in the Quran but will be in the hadiths. And then you need to make sure those hadiths are reliable and not fabricated cos you do get many fabricated stories passed off as hadith.

Now if all of this sounds like hard work, well it is, but we are rewarded for every time we seek out knowledge and abandon ignorance and blind following!

MN, don't lower yourself to arguing with the monkey. We are having such a nice conversation by ignoring him!

Ex legend, Done.

EXLegend: And I can carry out an assault on my own place of worship put it on tape post it on youtube and then cry Islamapohia! C’mon mate you’re too good to be this illogical.

Aakhri-pasta: umm have you ever heard of Abrogation of verse in Islam? By the way I’m still waiting for the stoning for adultery verse in the Koran. C,mon chimp we haven’t got all day.

no i have not yet seen that video yet... did you post one? anyways i could video shoot outside my office and convince people that i lived in iceland because of the greenery around... :)

You were talking to NM about the Vid which I posted (:

Miss Mimi do you mind changing that profile pic of yours... its so disturbing to imagine you like that ... :D

I think people jump on the malicious motives bandwagon far too often MN. I mean, Mona is a Muslim, as is the author of the article you posted, so presumably they would have no malicious motives for saying that perhaps a misinterpretation of certain passages in the Quran and hadiths is the cause of a great deal of misogyny in the Middle East. yet look at the responses. They aren't real Muslims, they hate Muslims, etc, etc, etc.

Ye right (: Koran for sale go on here and place your order now. Holy Quran: Buy at the best prices from simplyislam.co.uk

oh MN i was talking to NM

You do make a valid point. Too many people take the word of religious leaders,rather than doing research themselves.

EXLegend : Nobody said anything. The whole thing is filmed and published on youtube.

Aakhri-pasta : sorry to brust your bubble but according to wikipedia.com The bible is the most sold and published book and not the Koran (-: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_books

i wouldnt know unless i go... :) not because someone said so :)

Miss mimi : I think the main issue here which makes lots of Muslims skeptical of any form of criticism is that There's valid criticism and there are malicious motives. Unfortunately, these two get confused because of malicious people muddying the waters.

I think Fatimah & Brit that a lot of people are afraid to question Islam. I mean look at the reaction anytime anyone attempts to question it? Deaths over cartoons, fictional books, documentaries. I don't blame Mona for not addressing the Elephant in the room.

Well said..

Yes of course you get people who are afraid or couldn't give a hoot, but in that case it's they who are ignorant and not following their religion as it should be. Islam commands us to seek knowledge before even speech and action. The first command revealed by God was "Read" and in another verse "Know La Illaha Illallah" meaning first seek knowledge of why God is God.

And if gaining knowledge is obligated then one of the first areas we need to study up on is the Quran itself. One cannot blind follow in Islam. It is by far an evil act that can bring on a lot of negative repercussions as we can see around the world today with so many misguided Muslims doing the worst of crimes and claiming it to be for the sake of God.

Ah ok..well, then you know now.:)

no merci... how would i know... i went to the city of Makkah and Medina only were its unlikely... :)

But Fatimah, do you not find that Muslims are scared to question these sects? And that many "Muslims" do take the literal meaning of the Quran without doing any research?

I mean, just look at the parrots on QL who wouldn't know the deeper meaning behind a passage if it hit them in the head.

But questioning the Quran is permissible. As in you need to ask and research as to why a particular ayah(verse) was revealed, when,where,what it actually means etc.If you were to take the literal meaning of the Quran only it would be disastrous! That's why we got what we call Thafseers translated roughly to mean explanations of the Quran. Now the problem lies with whose translations are more reliable. Cos you will have each and every sect in Islam claiming their's to be the truth. So again you need to question the explanations themselves. All in all questioning and seeking knowledge of the Quran is in fact obligatory upon Muslims.

However what is not a part of Islam is a Muslim claiming the Quran is not the speech of God in itself and believing that the even the Quran in it's pure form, is the works of Muhammed(Peace be Upon Him) and his companions, which it is not.

MN that is the most disgusting thing I've ever seen. That poor woman!

Marco, of course it's awful. BUT...she knows where she is, she knows what people are like there. She is walking around, looks like Olaya Street, probably on a Thursday night, with make up and an open face. This is bound to happen! Heck, it even happens to totally covered women there!

That is what people are like there.

Why in God's name does she take a small child with her?????

Does she want him to hear and see all this?????

I can only assume she did this to show the world what it is really like....

The thing is, unless you can actually question the Quran and the people who preach it, you can't really determine what the meaning is behind a lot of passages. Christians and Jews have been questioning their holy books for centuries, and because of that, a lot of things have been clarified. The same kind of in-depth analysis needs to be done on the Quran. IT needs to stop being this untouchable thing.

And they call that respecting women?

She had a child with her!!!!

So it never happens in saudi ye! :-) Watch this Vid all the whsiking hissin 'n wolf callin! i'm ready to translate the name calling in the vid but not sure if you will stand the Profanity .

Ex legend, have you been down to

OLaya street on a Thursday night in Riyadh? Try that and then tell me they don't window shop....and display...well, let me tell you, the Local ladies of Riyadh know very well how to demand the attention of their male counterparts.:P

Babu, just today I was "window shopped" by a man clad in white.....so, maybe YOU don't do that, others defo do it.

window shopping requires the other side be on display, which is not the case there :(

hahaha

But there is nothing wrong with "window shopping"

but in my short visit to Saudi, i couldn't dare to intentionally look at the ladies there... :D and i think its a good thing :)

well i thought you were talking about Qatar then... in that case Saudi is a whole different thing and i have never lived there so cant tell.

ExLegend

I never said that women were not discriminated against in the West, its just in different ways. i.e. its still difficult for them to get into some male dominated industries etc...

To answer your question no I don't think its a good idea that women should only be allowed out of the house with a male chaperone -

Could you imagine if you weren't allowed to go down the shop to buy some milk etc without a chaperone...

I see plenty of Qatari women out driving/shopping etc without male chaperones and they seem to do fine by themselves

Yes women are not as strong as men so are less able to defend themselves against an attacker.

But fortunately women are also equipped with a brain so they normally stay away from dark alleys at night or anywhere else that might be dangerous when they are by themselves..

I also see alot of small skinny men that wouldn't be able to defend themselves against an attacker..

Maybe these men shouldnt be allowed out of the house without a chaperone incase they are attacked????

Ps Im a dude aswell :-0

well finally u agree that discrimination still happens against women in the west as well... likewise it happens in east, we why would middle east be considered an exception and not allowed or be criticized of such discrimination.

i must say i cannot challenge all of the examples you have listed but:

women not being allowed out of the house without a male chaperone - Dont you think this is a very good initiative to prevent any sort of harm that may befall a woman that she cannot handle and would be better off with a male support... (now dont argue that women are equal to men in all aspects... it may be true for only a few women not the majority)

not being allowed to drive at all in Saudi - though thats only in Saudi... we are all way aware of lady drivers and the chaos they bring to road... youtube is filled with samples to prove it :D

women not allowed to watch sporting even in Iran is really new to me infact i have heard of Iranian women's football team that was unjustly disqualified from olympics because they choose to adhere to their culture... wtf.

however, my opinion in this matter will not be of much weight as i am a man and cant voice the actual feelings of a woman, rather can only express the possible motive of a man who would apply certain very few strict rules on a woman

I'd say the author has hit the nail on the head, and what we see in this thread is the confirmation of exactly that.

Im sorry EXLegend

But I have to disagree with you...

I think Sheika Mozha is in my opinion a fantastic example of what any Middle Eastern woman can aspire to be.

But there a many conservatives in Qatar that are not happy that she appears on TV without her face covered and that she wears makeup etc etc

But to say that no women are oppressed in any urban Muslim setting is wrong

Just a few examples that come to mind, women not being allowed out of the house without a male chaperone or not being allowed to drive at all in Saudi or compete in the Olympics

Women not being allowed to watch sporting events in Iran etc etc

And no I am not picking on Muslim countries I was just giving examples to counter your answer...

Discrimination still happens against women in the west aswell

how come the picture has not yet been removed from this topic?

I believe the author maybe trying to pinpoint how people are in denial as to how their faith maybe used to bring about evil and oppression and instead are trying to blame those who question them.

If anyone is to suggest that what a majority of adherents of a faith are upon maybe not the truth they believe it is, but a distorted message, then they stand a chance of being ostracized and called horrible names not to mention be warned against and maybe even worse.

This is something many of us may have already faced. I know I have. Where when you try to show people the difference between the real message of Islam and what people have made it into, they abuse you and call you all kinda names, claiming you have actually been brainwashed by the western media etc or that you are trying to take them away from the beliefs of their fathers. Strangely enough the latter is what the Prophet himself was accused of so how can we expect any better?

It is all about semantics. Yes, Islam is at the heart of the problem. However, to me, it is the interpretation and execution (pun) of the religion that needs to be addressed. This can only be achieved by discussion rather than criticizing.

turbo you are right, am wasting my time arguing with AP...

its always advised to control your emotions or you will end up expressing the truth in an ugly manner...

the topic is suggesting misogyny in Muslim world... and can be only replied by a female from or living in a Muslim world...

while reading this when i look at Her Highness Sheikha Mozha who wears the Burka very elegantly... do you see any form of oppression on her face or instead do you see a success story in herself.???

come on, cut the crap fellows, women are not being disliked/hated/oppressed in any urban muslim world.

now if you talk about the rural or remote areas then... the case is similar to a Christian/atheist/hindu country... its the same... same...

now cheer up... :)

I think you might have hit the nail on the head there.....

It might be that some people here 'pretend' to be muslim so as to intice hatred...

Real muslims are much more kind and filled with humility and way more informative like FathimaH:-)

Very good call on that one;-)

AP why don't you use your brains to comment?

Shisha2020

Don't waste your breath if everyone ignore's him he will go away eventually

The title should have been, 'There's a real Monkey in the room'

xD

AP aka BG Islam maybe best religion in the world according to you , but not according to evryone, respect others views , dont call them rapist , i doubt whether you are a true muslim from heart, all i can see is hatred to other communities in your post, dont forget the Quranic verse 'Lakum deenakum valiya deen'...

I agree 100% completely.

Not being allowed to challenge the Q'uran makes people basically parrots. Reciting versus by repetition, without any actual feeling OR understanding as to why it was said.

Basically, being brainwashed into believing that nothing else is right, only the words in the Q'uran. We see this play out every single day on QL.

God gave us a brain to use - if he didn't want rational independant thinking, he would have made us all robots.

oh Douche... !!! what a waste of debate... !!!

on the contrary, we all know... Men Rule :D:D:D and we love fine ladies...

Shisha2020 said "and personally i think people should be allowed to challenge Quran so that the ultimate truth comes out during a peaceful public debate like many Da'wa workers does back in my country"

Exactly well said Shisha

Good Idea Mimi! Maybe if we ignore him long enough he will go away

Yes I do agree with that bit

But not that Islam is necessarily the problem in itself, rather than the fact that people are not allowed to question particular interpretations of certain bits or they are accused of blasphemy etc

The same as what happened in the Dark ages in Europe, when no one dared question the church for fear of punishment.

And we all know how that worked out :-0

This is so boring now.

The problem here is every one is quoting out of context to manipulate according to their thinking so as to regain power, the only solution would be correct teaching of Islam where you shouldn't be teaching extremism and hatred towards other people and believers, and personally i think people should be allowed to challenge Quran so that the ultimate truth comes out during a peaceful public debate like many Da'wa workers does back in my country.

You know. I wish we could actually discuss this article and the issues it brings up, rather than wasting are time telling the stupid monkey that same things over and over again.

I'm going to try. Marco, Fatimah, Turbo hamster, Brit,

What do you think about what he says about people being too scared to actually say that Islam is at the heart of the problem?

Sajmarhab that is BS Islam is not the fastest growing religion in the west as Mimi pointed out Atheism is far more prevalent, especially in Europe. Come to think of it I actually can't think of anyone I know from back home who is religious really

Hmm I didn't know you could breed Muslim's??? I thought it was a choice??

And your attitude is exactly the kind of that the article is talking about!

If the Quran is the word of God and thus perfect then why does it matter if people criticise it?

Or is simply because the best way to make people agree with you is to label anyone who disagrees with your beliefs a heretic and sentence them to death for blasphemy..

Religion or lack of is a personal thing, so why should you have to follow someone else's interpretation of the Quran/Bible etc etc

Please quote it brit so that we can discuss

Rape has nothing to do with this thread Monkey.

aawwww.. who is this guy? ;)

I think the issue here is what the author says, it's cherry picking:

"In that context, cherry-picking favorable passages becomes problematic for true believers. And at various points, the Quran, like the other Abrahamic scriptures, contains passages that are plainly sexist: from advocating beating women (4:34), to advocating sex with female prisoners of war even if they're married (4:24), to instructions on how to divorce a wife who hasn't yet had her first period (65:4), to declaring menstruation an illness (2:222), to making two female witnesses equivalent to one male because "if one errs, the other can remind her" (2:282), to saying straight out that men are superior and have authority over women (2:228, 4:34). And that's just a sampling. The hadith, or traditions of the Prophet Muhammad, go even further."

Many of these so-called Islamists don't look for the context in which these were written, or even try and look at it as anything other than the literal word of God, nor do they look at passages later that explain these "laws" in another context or where Mohammad actually seems to not follow his own teachings (like with the woman who confessed to adultery). They see "I can beat my wife, it says so in the Quran"

And it's no different with the Bible or the Torah.

I could quote passages from both the Quran and the Bible which could be interpreted to demean women.

The essence les in the interpretation and questioning those who use religion to control. This has happened in Christianity, but not so much in Islam. Muslims need to be more vocal against such bigots.

All divine texts have,throughout history, been misquoted,misunderstood and even altered. Hence it is important for any follower of any faith to take the effort and seek out the right knowledge of their religion and/or beliefs, and know where and how it has been distorted to suit the agendas of certain sects and heads.

Oppression is for example something that is most hated in Islam, and Allah says it is not a trait He has even applied to Himself. Likewise no other religion claims oppression to be permissible.And yet when you look around you, many nations and even their governments practicing blatant oppressive acts. How come?

Knowledge is everything. It's only by constant enlightenment devoid of blind following will one come to recognize what is actually legislated by your faith and what is simply twisted.

I just did a quick google search. Apparently Wiccans and Jeovah's Witnesses also both claim the "fastest growing" title. :)

The topic is misogyny in the Middle East. It’s not about how fast Islam is spreading. It's not about Islamophopia, and I’m almost 100% positive it has nothing to do with breeding!

Stick to the topic of this article if you wish us all to have a civilized discussion here or go on and start your own thread on how glorious and victorious Islam is.

Actually you are wrong in your statement, the Bhaiis are actually the fastest growing religion in the western countries.

As for Dr Naik I wouldn't go quoting him on religion, you might as well quote W Bush on peace in the Middle East. Two totally discredited figures.

I wish there was an ignore button on QL so everyone wouldn't have to read Babu's Aka Aakhri Spaghetti"s idiotic comments and we be free to have a reasonable discussions in peace....

Its a good article and bring's up some very valid points..

Actually atheism or no-religion is the fastest growing belief system in the West.

Really. One anti Islamic book every 3 hours?!?!? Dear Me! We must all be drowning in anti Islamic Books! Help me! I can't see for all the books! I can't find anything else on the shelves of bookstores! The trees are all gone!

Do you ever actually stop to think before you print something so outrageously inaccurate?

because you preach there FREELY! Can you do the same here?

to live up on this world.

CRITICISE ISLAM. and Quran.

But Marko and MIMI, how come, Islam becoming the fastest growing religion in WEST.

As per Dr. Zakir Naik, there are Millions of books are printing in the world against Islam (as per his calculation, 1 in every 3 hour, if am not mistaken).

still people giving interest to learn Islam where you mentioning your free society. now they are breeding more muslims than any other country.

Why.... or How come..

When you are making comments on Ql, what do you base them on? ...

Do you go look for meaningful answers and take your time to actually digest what you are reading or you just simply type away whatever non sense that comes up in your little monkey brain because old habits die hard?

. ... Have you ever paused and said to yourself:

“I don't get it why everybody thinks I’m a stupid uneducated troll who can’t string tow words together to make proper sentence?"

Well..... Unless you have something intelligent to say don't say anything at all.

Excellent!

Love these passages:

Now, if entire nations of people have been raised to believe that these passages from the Quran are not only immutable and divine, but also that challenging them can be punishable by death -- how unreasonable is it to think that it would have a deep, lasting impact on their attitudes toward women? Would it not be near delusional to think otherwise?

Clearly, these issues are not unique to Islam. As incidents like the recent walkout of students during Dan Savage's speech criticizing the Bible for its homophobia have demonstrated, we're getting to a point where the fight for basic civil rights and societal progress will necessarily require open, often aggressive criticism of religion. The Torah and Bible are equally rife with misogynistic passages, and the effects are still seen in the U.S. today with the religious right's burgeoning campaign against contraception and abortion rights, alongside other campaigns opposing marriage equality, stem cell research, and teaching proper science in schools.

and

This is why it isn't difficult to understand why Eltahawy went some of the distance (acknowledging a "toxic mix of culture and religion" as an etiology in passing), but stopped short of a potential fatwa risk. It's also easy to understand why Fisher decided to dismiss religion as a contributing factor to misogyny in the Middle East, bizarrely laying blame on the historical colonial rulers of Muslim lands like the Turks, British, and French instead. It is for the same reason that Yale decided to publish a book about the Danish Muhammad cartoons -- without the cartoons; or Comedy Central repeatedly decided to censor images of the Prophet Muhammad on South Park, while letting other religious figures run loose onscreen.

but if its religion that enforces such discrimination you have to deal with the root cause otherwise you are putting a plaster on a broken leg.

To answer the previous question I don't know if nuns feel degraded. However I know no one is born a nun it is something they choose to do. To be born a gulf Arab woman you do not get the same choice.

Brit, if that is how you see it, I would say you missed the essence of the article.

DP ;o(

Good article till the sentgence - "If you want to fight patriarchy, but stop short of criticizing religion -- you're not fighting patriarchy. Period."

It is not religion we need to criticise , but we need to question those who use religion as an excuse to subjugate women and deprive them of their rights.

lol @ misogyny in the middle East... u must come and try to take a walk in Qatar and u will end up having the whole male population staring at you with emotions that are beyond the radius of only 'LIKE'... the females are found so attractive here that they are even suggested to cover up totally let alone walk in summer clothings...

you can actually learn more about the situation in this interesting forum opened a few hours ago... http://qatarliving.com/node/3005256

btw in ME or Arab try talking about Camels rather.