THE REASON

Shuaibkazi
By Shuaibkazi

THE REASON

The most complex form of social hierarchy is that of humans in the animal kingdom. Unlike the animal kingdom, there are no alpha males or silver backs (though some men tend to act that way). Therefore we end up with an unclear foundation on which we can arrange any social hierarchy.

In animals the best of the breed survives and passes on their genes to the next generation where as the weak ones pass away, "natural selection" & "survival of the fittest" so to speak, but in Humans everyone survives and if "lucky", pass on there genes to the next generation.

The hierarchy is very easy to understand in animals because every one in the pack knows who is superior and in charge, whereas in humans everyone thinks they are superior and if they are not in charge it still doesn’t hurt to think they are superior.

The "Have's" think they are better then the "Have-Not's" and at the same moment the "Have-Nots" think they are superior for some reason best known to them. To name a few instances, humans feel superior to their fellow species with regards to religion, color, caste, creed, country, city, the list is factually endless.

The reason is, for humans, superiority is a state of mind. Humans hold attributes superior than mere physical or mental capabilities. And in whom we find these attributes we hold them as superior because these attributes are seen by us as qualities.

The best example of how people think can be seen in the world of cinema which is a collective effort of different minds acting as one to create an end product. Hence it can very well be taken as a consensus on superiority & hierarchy. Here we see different enactment's with contradicting views on who is "The Good, Bad And The Ugly", and sometimes the same could be all three rolled into one.

But the story doesn’t end there, because the end is very much related to the beginning and for an imitative animal like the human being, the type of attributes he likes are very much dependent on the type of upbringing & social interactions he has had during his early life. And so much of violence and disharmony with in the human society, we usually hate arises from the same attributes we grow to hold so dear due to our upbringing & also base our life on them.

If the human race has to really live in harmony we have to find a uniform if not the same foundation on which to design the attributes we grow to admire and imbibe within us. This is where the social family structure and religion has become so important, because it shapes the young mind into knowing & believing what is right from wrong and good from bad.

By Shuaibkazi• 3 Nov 2007 14:38
Shuaibkazi

So even if u do dont want control atleast we agree that a benchmark has to be maintained and has to be communicated to the masses

Cool!

See ya ragna and the next time i initiate a thread it wont be on such a serious note

Sheesh! people need to calm down!

By Ragnarock Raider• 3 Nov 2007 11:35
Rating: 2/5
Ragnarock Raider

You do need some sort of benchmark (I think the word control is opens up a whole new set of worms). But to assume that everyone is a criminal and we must exert control on them lest they slaughter each other and society degenerates into chaos is a little alarmist. Yes there are criminals, but they are always a minority. In the end people are logical and want to live in peaceful societies...if they can be shown how it is to their benefit to play nice, then there is no need for either a fascist police state....nor a belief system promising eternal torture if the do not comply.

Stay safe all.

Perfection does not exist. The question therefore, is: what level of imperfection are we willing to settle for?

By Shuaibkazi• 1 Nov 2007 23:44
Shuaibkazi

U people keep coming back to religion

Can u just find faults

Look to the future - brainstorm

Thats the whole idea

What i am saying is control is necessary

It channels growth. Now the growth can either be religiously channeled or Government planned since a unified effort to channel growth in a predetermined direction is necessary for growth.

(if u have a suggestion for an another example give me and yes dont give me any of that all people are nice thing)

Theres a concept in risk and disaster planning

"If u wanna go fast get brakes" - Less risk that way plus growth

Channeled growth gives brakes and helps in controling outcomes.

By the way i believe all u have a problem with is religion

I am sure u will find people to elect who will be all caring for the masses and without considering for what there campaign promoters want do whats best for the people.

Comments please

And for a change forget religion go towards the future and give a logical outlook for the future.

By anonymous• 1 Nov 2007 12:13
anonymous

Buddhism is a philosophy but our official Documentations like Birth Certificates ask for a religion (We got the Bireth Cerficate format from British) and we write Buddhism against it. That is why there is a confusion. Our ancient books says Lord Buddha's teachings are not religion but it is a philosophy.

Personally I don't practice any other Religion but most of the Buddists in my place worship Hindu Gods also. Some (including Monks) beleive (practice) in Satya Sri Sai Baba but nobody I know practice any other religion other than those 2 I mentioned above.

By Gypsy• 1 Nov 2007 12:13
Gypsy

This is what a monk told me in Sri Lanka. It could have been a misinterpretation of English.

"You don't have to like me for who I am but we'll see what you're made of by what you make of me." Ani Difranco

By the black prince• 1 Nov 2007 11:56
the black prince

Whether Buddhism is a religion or a Philosophy is not the point, its ways should be an example to all of us on what co-existance and peace and understanding within this world is all about.

By Ragnarock Raider• 1 Nov 2007 11:54
Ragnarock Raider

I'm just wondering because I have heard it described as both a religon AND a philosophy....but I have never heard of a buddhist who subscribes to another religion....as a praticioner perhaps you can enlightn us please.

Stay safe.

Perfection does not exist. The question therefore, is: what level of imperfection are we willing to settle for?

By anonymous• 1 Nov 2007 11:50
anonymous

I am a Buddhist and Buddhism is not a religion. It it a Philosophy. What does Wikipedia know about Buddhism. Nuts!

By Gypsy• 1 Nov 2007 11:46
Gypsy

Described maybe, but according to the monks I sat with it's a philosophy. Simply because you can subscribe to another religion, but practise Buddhism. Prince Siddharta himself was Hindu I believe.

"You don't have to like me for who I am but we'll see what you're made of by what you make of me." Ani Difranco

By t_coffee_or_me• 1 Nov 2007 11:44
t_coffee_or_me

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism

If you can't change your fate, change your attitude.

By Ragnarock Raider• 1 Nov 2007 11:40
Ragnarock Raider

Of course Canada has musderes...every country on earth does....even religious ones...what is your point? Even if we ban religions, do you think we would not have murderes? We would still need to punish them for the good of society.

In fact if only gods laws are the right ones, then we don't even need to punish murderers...god will do it later....no, clearly we need to act for the good of society not anyone's soul later in the afterlife (if there is one).

And no I don't think i'm a saint or an ideal humanity cannot reach...i'm anordinary guy who wants whats best for himself, his family, his society, and his fellow man....it is not rocket science.

And the fact that there are MORE religious people in the world than atheists should make you think twice since the uneducated VASTLY outnumber the educated (i'm not saying ALL religious people are uneducated...but you cannot deny the link between lack of education and strictness of religious frevor can you?)!

Stay safe all.

Perfection does not exist. The question therefore, is: what level of imperfection are we willing to settle for?

By Gypsy• 1 Nov 2007 11:38
Gypsy

Buddhism is a philosophy not a religion.

"You don't have to like me for who I am but we'll see what you're made of by what you make of me." Ani Difranco

By t_coffee_or_me• 1 Nov 2007 11:28
t_coffee_or_me

Buddhism

If you can't change your fate, change your attitude.

By Gypsy• 1 Nov 2007 11:25
Gypsy

Shuai, can you name a religion that doesn't have a history of death, war and misinterpretation?

"You don't have to like me for who I am but we'll see what you're made of by what you make of me." Ani Difranco

By Shuaibkazi• 31 Oct 2007 22:00
Shuaibkazi

Dont get me wrong

All i am saying u need a belief system (be it religious or state dictated) for internal development of familys and a state run judicial system for governing the overall social development of society

Throw away religion if u want to

But if religious belief system is done away with get ready for the new world order where Government is the whole and soul of ur life

Today ur the Zeitgeist but then u might be very well handing over ur very freedom to the state

Govmt have been known to create paranoia to get us to leave religion (the authenticity of religion aside)so that they can control us instead of the religion

Try googling for atheists and count the number hits against and the number of sites for atheism

Do u really honestly believe that there are more atheists then religious people. Again the validity of religion aside.

By Shuaibkazi• 31 Oct 2007 21:49
Rating: 4/5
Shuaibkazi

Timbo we do the opposite also all the time too

Dont say we - say u do those things

We are not all alike, we are capable of the best of things and the worst

Give these guys a look

UK

John Bodkin Adams - doctor acquitted of one murder in 1957 but according to police archives, the likely killer of at least 163 of his patients

Beverly Allitt - an Angel of Death; paediatric nurse who killed four patients and injured at least nine others, convicted in 1991

Robert Black - Scottish schoolgirl killer; convicted of three murders, suspected of many more

Ian Brady and Myra Hindley - aka Moors Murderers - murdered 5 children, aged between 10 and 17 years old, and buried them on Saddleworth Moor.

George Chapman - poisoned three women, suspected by some authors of being Jack the Ripper

John Childs - murdered six individuals; jailed 1980

Robert George Clements - doctor who murdered one wife but committed suicide before being arrested; three previous wives died in suspicious circumstances

John Christie - aka The Necrophile who killed 7 women (including his wife) and disputably 1 infant between 1943 and 1953 and hid them in his house and garden at 10 Rillington Place, Notting Hill, London. Hanged in 1953

Mary Ann Cotton - British Victorian killer, said to have taken more than 20 victims

Thomas Neill Cream - aka Lambeth Poisoner, began his killing spree in the US then moved to London. Hanged 1892

Amelia Dyer - murdered infants in her care; executed in 1896

Bruce George Peter Lee - aka the Hull Arsonist was convicted of 26 charges of manslaughter in 1981

Kenneth Erskine - aka Stockwell Strangler; jailed in 1988 for murdering seven pensioners

John George Haigh - aka the Acid Bath Murderer and the Vampire of London. Active in England during the 1940s. Was convicted of 6 murders, but claimed to have killed 9. Executed in 1949

Anthony Hardy - aka the Camden Ripper; convicted of three murders; suspected of at least four

Colin Ireland - aka Gay Slayer; killed five victims in the early 1990s

Michael Lupo - aka Wolf Man; convicted of four murders and the attempted murder of two others

Patrick Mackay - confessed to killing 11 people

Robert Maudsley - killer of four; killed three in prison

Peter Moore - businessman who killed men at random in Wales

Donald Neilson - aka Black Panther; killed four people including heiress Lesley Whittle

Dennis Nilsen - killer of 15 (possibly 16) men between 1978 and 1983

William Palmer - aka The Rugeley Poisoner

Mark Rowntree - 19 year old who killed four people at random

Harold Shipman - doctor convicted of 15 murders; a later inquiry stated he had killed at least 215 and possibly up to 457 people over a 25 year period

George Joseph Smith - aka The Brides in the Bath killer

John Straffen - child-killer and Britain's longest serving prisoner

Peter Sutcliffe - aka the Yorkshire Ripper; convicted in 1981 of the murders of 13 women and the attacks on 7 more from 1975 to 1980

Fred West and Rosemary West - aka House of Horrors murderers in Gloucester. They are believed to have tortured and murdered at least 12 young women between 1967 and 1987, many at the couple's home in Gloucester, England. He committed suicide in 1995 while awaiting trial for murder

Graham Frederick Young - aka The Teacup Poisoner; killed three individuals from 1962 to 1971

By Shuaibkazi• 31 Oct 2007 21:42
Shuaibkazi

For gypsy

Government doing good for the people?

Ofcourse thats what they are elected for nut can u Name any govmt in the world which hasnt had a history of Malpractice at some point in their history

""Frankly I think Humans are quite capable of deciding what is best for them - Tell that to the dead victims of the vfine lot mentioned above

By Shuaibkazi• 31 Oct 2007 21:39
Shuaibkazi

I like it that u all are doing constructive criticism

But why do u look at everything with a personal view

Laws are not made for one, its for all. Ragnau might be the ideal human being

How can u expect everyone to be like u?

By setting a benchmark of what is right and what is wrong correct?

So now that we have a mould do u think it will be easy for everyone to reach ur level?

No right

U might not be a murderer, infact nobody is born a murderer. BUt what abt these fine specimen from ur own country Canada. they folowed killing people religiously too.

Paul Bernardo - aka the Scarborough Rapist; Ontario man who killed three teenage girls (including his wife's sister) with the aid of his wife Karla Homolka

William Patrick Fyfe - convicted of murdering five women; confessed to killing four more individuals in Quebec

Russell Johnson - killer of seven women; confined to a mental institution since 1978

Gilbert Paul Jordan - Killed between eight and ten women, by alcohol poisoning

Allan Legere - aka Monster of Miramichi; killer of five individuals

Michael Wayne McGray - convicted of the murders of four individuals; confessed to killing sixteen

Clifford Olson - murdered 11 children in British Columbia

Peter Woodcock - murdered three children in 1956 and 1957 and a fellow psychiatric institute patient in 1991

and thats why u need an all inclusive system even if religion is out of the picture

By Gypsy• 31 Oct 2007 16:25
Gypsy

I don't believe that the government is God, not even close. The government is a group of people doing what's best for everyone. Frankly I think Humans are quite capable of deciding what is best for them.

"You don't have to like me for who I am but we'll see what you're made of by what you make of me." Ani Difranco

By Ragnarock Raider• 31 Oct 2007 16:23
Ragnarock Raider

Why can we not do something for the good of our children? why must we be bribed with a "reward"?

The laws punish transgressors but not reward following them...you do not get anything for not murdering people...its just the decent thing to do man....why is it so hard for the religious to believe atheists are moral?

Honestly Shuaib.....if there was no heaven, would you be a murderer?

Have a good night man, and talk to you some more later =)

Stay safe all.

Perfection does not exist. The question therefore, is: what level of imperfection are we willing to settle for?

By anonymous• 31 Oct 2007 16:19
anonymous

That is the point, we do nice things for no obvious benefit to ourselves all the time. You raise a good point in asking why that is the case.

For me the answer is easy and it goes back to what I said earlier.

We do nice things by and large so we live in a society where nice things are done. Ultimately it pays us as a species to live in such a society. Monkeys groom the fur of other monkeys. Do they do it for fun? No, they do it because a - they like to be groomed themselves and b - it promotes harmony in the group and that is good for all the monkeys in the group.

I don't stop at traffic lights because I will get a ticket if I don't. I even stop at them at night when I know no one is around. I stop because I know that if everyone obeys the lights then it is a much more efficient junction for all of us. If anarchy prevailed then the junction would take much longer to get through

By Shuaibkazi• 31 Oct 2007 16:14
Shuaibkazi

Timbo its a figure of speech

I dont really mean god as god

U r a logical person wud u do something good for just goodness sake

I mean we r all selfish people. If what u r saying is to be applied then the govmt has to give incentives and special attention to the perfect citizens in the future.

Since religion promises a paradise people act nice. so when govmts apply the commandments dontu think the govmt has to promise something better.

I mean i dont think people are gonna be nice for goodness sake

And gypsy in todays wworld we have two gods one in the heavens and one in the world. Govmt is also a god t o us

People expect something from both, thats what keeps them in check.

Look guys i am goin g off now gotta go for work will be back at 10.30

U guys carryon

By anonymous• 31 Oct 2007 16:04
Rating: 4/5
anonymous

No. There is no such thing as God. Never was and never will be.

Society invented the rules and society will enforce them just as it has always done. You do not need to be told the rules to obey and understand them. Observance and understanding of how to operate in the complex human social network is part of our make up. Just as it is for other animals and their (less complex0 social structures

By Gypsy• 31 Oct 2007 16:02
Gypsy

Shuai, you're saying people won't follow laws if they aren't religious.

"You don't have to like me for who I am but we'll see what you're made of by what you make of me." Ani Difranco

By Shuaibkazi• 31 Oct 2007 16:01
Shuaibkazi

okay timbo so u mean to say the enforcer of these laws in the future will become gods

By Shuaibkazi• 31 Oct 2007 15:59
Shuaibkazi

GYpsy ur argument is on a different level

I was talking abt beliefs and ur talking abt traffic laws

Moveon lets moveover to the future

Lets think abt a perfect society

By anonymous• 31 Oct 2007 15:58
anonymous

No I am not. i am saying that the rules existed before the commandments adn the rules will exist after everyone has forgotten about them. The "rules" are just the most efficient recipe for our mutually benevolent society. they are simple and obvious truths.

All humans did is write them down and then invent a god to have said them.

By Shuaibkazi• 31 Oct 2007 15:53
Shuaibkazi

So what ur tryingto say is in the future when religion is gone something similar will take its place

something like the new commandments

By Gypsy• 31 Oct 2007 15:35
Gypsy

The governments would simply apply laws Shuabi. We would be told what they are and not to do them. Don't murder, don't steal, don't cut someone off in traffic. (Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe there's a section on traffic laws anywhere in the Quran, so by your defintion we shouldn't follow them because they aren't religious. )

"You don't have to like me for who I am but we'll see what you're made of by what you make of me." Ani Difranco

By anonymous• 31 Oct 2007 15:30
anonymous

Shuaibkazi rules were not created by or enforced by religion. The majority of rules/commandments are nothing more than a successful formula for maintaining an incredibly complex social system.

Human beings evolutionary success is based largely on the success of our social network. our you scratch my back and I scratch yours system.

Why is murder "wrong"? It is wrong because we have created a society in which we want our children to reach sexual maturity adn have children of their own. If murder was tolerated by society then the benefit of the society to it';s members would be reduced because it would be an unsafe place to bring up children. So society prohibits it and severely punishes transgressors. No religion required, it is an evolutionary construct.

You can apply this you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours theory to most commandments and also to seemingly thankless acts of benevolence.

Try it and if you come up with one that doesn't work send it to me and I'll try

By Ragnarock Raider• 31 Oct 2007 15:22
Ragnarock Raider

There will be SOME sort of control...but I don't know its exact form....we went from family units to clans...to tribes...to villages...to city states...to countries...to Unions of countries....who knows what the future is going to be like....but that doesn't mean we want to become slaves to the system...a gvt or central authority is there to protect your freedoms not infringe upon them....it will set laws and I think that's ok as long as they do not infringe upon freedoms...and as always, everyone must have the same rights under such a system.

But do you think it cannot happen without religion? I think it can....remember no religion does not mean no morality and no right and wrong.

Stay safe all.

Perfection does not exist. The question therefore, is: what level of imperfection are we willing to settle for?

By Shuaibkazi• 31 Oct 2007 15:13
Shuaibkazi

one more thing the reason i bring govt in the middle is because it is very difficult to maintain authority without uniformity

Who better to maintain and guarantee responsibility with authority and a like system of beliefs then the Govmt.

And ragna u have brains but what abt miscreants

Whos gonna punish them, we shud have the Govmt looking after the affairs

I guess i am asking more questions then giving answers

By Shuaibkazi• 31 Oct 2007 14:52
Shuaibkazi

GYpsy we are trying to reach a time and place when the Belief system established by Religion has vanished and and and u know

we are talking abt the future after religion

When u say that the government that does not teach their citizens the diff btween right n wrong ur automatically making the govmt responsible.

And where there is responsibility, u have to give authority

Food is a matter of taste and i agree everyone infact descendants from islamic countrys might start eating pork and christians might stop since it will all remain a matter of taste

When i talk abt what we eat i mean - substance abuse€

And a time when values like good and bad arent dependent on ur religious background. No matter how much we might hate to admit it but the right and wrong we were told are somewhere or the other related to our familys religious upbringing.

So now going into the future new valuesystems have to be created defining the bad and the good and sincethere is no religion

Some one will have tobe responsible for looking after this

And i think logically the responsibility will fall on the govmt of the time

By Gypsy• 31 Oct 2007 14:06
Rating: 3/5
Gypsy

If I can butt in Shuai and Ragna. I think the same way as Ragna, in that I prefer to see government and religion entirely seperate. Shuai, if you do this, this means that the government DOES NOT teach it's people their values or morals. Religion, the family and culture will still be the ones to do that. If you believe, for example, that premarital sex is wrong, or that eating pork is bad, then you will teach that to your children, who, inshallah, will agree and live their lives that way. If you neighbour thinks that premarital sex is ok and pork is tasty, they will teach their children that, and, inshallah, their children will follow their example.

Perhaps the children of the religious couple will disagree and decide when they grow up that they don't agree, or perhaps the children of the ireligious neighbour will disagree and choose religion. Where the government gets involved is by enforcing the childrens right to follow their own path. So they aren't physically harmed for choosing that life. However, the government can't stop the parents from disowening or guilty tripping the children, only stop physical harm.

As for schools. The school I attended never taught values or morals (beyond don't cause physical harm to someone). It taught me 2 + 2= 4 and left the values and morals up to my family.

"You don't have to like me for who I am but we'll see what you're made of by what you make of me." Ani Difranco

By Ragnarock Raider• 31 Oct 2007 13:46
Ragnarock Raider

And that is not what I was advocating.

But whos is to say that a society that doesn't believe in a creator being who demands its worship or who will punish its memebers by roasting them alive for all eternity in hellfire cannot have social norms and manners?

We, as a species, have always regulated our affairs and interactions before organized religions and governments....ok granted, in the past they were so much cruder than today....but why assume that we cannot regulate our affairs without religion?

Why is the alternative a police state? Can civilized members of societies not get along and work for the benefit of ALL?

Sure there will always be malcontents and deviants...but society as a whole CAN function...we have brains Shuaibkazi...and we DO know right from wrong....if we are brought up to love instead of discriminate...I think society CAN function.

But I like this brainstorming exercise...this society can at least live in our imaginations for a brief while....anyone else out there want to throw in some ideas?

Stay Safe all.

Perfection does not exist. The question therefore, is: what level of imperfection are we willing to settle for?

By Shuaibkazi• 31 Oct 2007 13:36
Shuaibkazi

too confusing to put my finger on anything

U can try but we are normal people not policy makers, atmost a vague picture is all we can go for.

too many things look wrong to me but I understand what u r trying to say

Division of state and religion right?

But whos to decide whats conservative any more

My children or anyone for that matter can do anything any more as long as they are not hurting anyone.

Values will be enforced by the state, manners too,

Social behaviour will be determined by the government and not taught in homes, as the government will be legally responsible for such.

But what i want to see is what if there is no religion

No belief system,

Wont we need a new system which includes everything from

How to talk to ur neighbours to what kind of financial transaction is permissible

What i mean to say is that u r going to give a lot of power to the government. they wud attain access to every part of ur human life.

USA is already working on those lines.

Sounds pretty dangerous to me. We gotta brainstorm about this though

Can u think on these lines, i mean on what i have just spoken

Lets just create a hypothetical scenario where religion is no more existent for a long time. what do u think the government is doing

By Ragnarock Raider• 31 Oct 2007 12:58
Rating: 2/5
Ragnarock Raider

A Religion free world would one where its not necessarily oulawed...you CAN believe in a god if you want....or whatever works for you.....but you totally seperate belief in metaphysical things from the day to day running of society.

Everyone can believe what they want, but we all have equal rights....laws are made to protect everyone's rights, based on logic and majority rule (keeping minority rights in consideration)...and absolutely no forms of discrimination is allowed against others for believeing in anything different than you....choosing a lifestyle different than you....being different physically from you...or anyhting at all....with the sole Caveat that you cannot harm others, or infringe on their rights....a world of choices....we all choose what we like, how we behave, etc...laws curbe behaviours that is harmful to others and to society, otherwise we do not impose what we think is right on others.

Basically....something modelled after Canada or the Scandinavian countries laws....before you say its too liberal, you can CHOOSE to raise your children more conservatively, but no laws dictate that choice to you.

Women have equal rights obviously...we preach harmony and tolerance and try and punich violators of the law who hurt society as a whole.

Laws would evolve over time as the society does, because to do otherwise would stagnate and die.

I am not a sociologist and I do not have the time to do a complete disseration on what that society would be like....but you get the idea right Shuaibkazi?

What would be your objection to a society like that?

Stay safe all.

Perfection does not exist. The question therefore, is: what level of imperfection are we willing to settle for?

By Shuaibkazi• 31 Oct 2007 12:42
Shuaibkazi

can u paint a picture 4 me

no iam not making a joke out of it

i really want to know whats ur idea of a religion free world

By Ragnarock Raider• 31 Oct 2007 11:49
Ragnarock Raider

So far, having it has harmed humanity more than it has helped....are you willing to let us try the alternative? Imagine a world with no Religion....a believer's worst nightmare...they think it would mean anarchy and the end of morality, when in reality, nothing could be further from the truth...imho at least ;)

Stay safe.

Perfection does not exist. The question therefore, is: what level of imperfection are we willing to settle for?

By Shuaibkazi• 31 Oct 2007 11:43
Shuaibkazi

It all comes down to one thing - faith

u have it or not

By Gypsy• 31 Oct 2007 11:25
Rating: 4/5
Gypsy

Actually I completely disagree Shubi (shocker I know) but in most human interaction, especially in the past, we have always had a hieracrchial situation in which the strongest, smartest male has generally taken control. When we were tribal we had a cheif and a head warrior, when we were feudal we had a King and Generals, Captains, etc. Now we still have King's in some places or we elect a leader, a President or Prime Minsiter, or a leader takes over, as in dictatorships.

On a smaller scale we have bosses in the workplace and orders of rank, in social situations there is usually one dominate personality. In families, in couples. Even in religion there is a hierarchial system.

"You don't have to like me for who I am but we'll see what you're made of by what you make of me." Ani Difranco

By Ragnarock Raider• 31 Oct 2007 11:04
Ragnarock Raider

I will point out what you ask for when you can point to me where the holy books say beleieve in what you want for we are all equally right....

As you can see, neither exists, and people will take what they want from it....SO, knowing the human porpensity to be petty and argue about anything and everything....why on earth would you intoruce something as contriversial, vague, discriminatory, and frightening thing as religion into this volatile mix???? Its a recipe for wars....so what's the solution? Ban religion? Unless EVERYONE believes in the exact same religion it may be the ONLY solution...

Stay Safe.

Perfection does not exist. The question therefore, is: what level of imperfection are we willing to settle for?

By Shuaibkazi• 31 Oct 2007 10:58
Shuaibkazi

Enlighten us ragna

Does any religious book itself tells us in specific words to wage a holy war or a crusade. (an example)

Jihad means to strive or struggle against oppression, if muslims go and blow up innocent people are they striving aginst oppression, or are they oppressing people?

Religious infighting is also a classic example how stupid people can be.

The "i am more right then you" has been going on since ages, it is very much going now also and will go on forever. Religion is just an excuse.

By Ragnarock Raider• 31 Oct 2007 10:33
Ragnarock Raider

ALL religions preach eternal suffering in hellfire for those who do not beileve the ONE TRUE FAITH....theirs!

Religion does NOT unify...it divides...there are too many examples to name but here are just 2 off the top of my head:

The hundred years war bewteen France and England (both Christian nations).

The civil war in Lebanon (between different religions and even different sects of the same religion of the same country!).

No my friend....the banner under which the MOST blood has ever been shed in human history is religion's.

As for religion being the benchmark of family...also wrong...again which religion?? One religion's polygamy is banned in another!!

Are you saying those who do not beleieve in religion cannot have a good family?? Utter Rubish.

The best way to preach harmony and tolerance is to IGNORE Religion's bigotry and keep an open mind! There is not ONE religion that says we are all right and all will go to heaven! NOT ONE!

Stay Safe.

Perfection does not exist. The question therefore, is: what level of imperfection are we willing to settle for?

By Shuaibkazi• 31 Oct 2007 10:24
Shuaibkazi

i am sorry my question wasnt clear enuf

What i was asking for is for an instance where a religion says the other person is wrong, then go and kill him or his life can be taken

By the way, the little unification we have in this world is because of religion

As i said before, religion is also a law, A Law which crosses boundaries of countrys, thats the reason we have people of for example country A getting along better with country B. Since they share a similar faith & value system.

Now repeating what i said before, its the teachers of faith who arre responsible for creating a more tolerant society. they are not doing there job well enuf

Christ never asked to fight after even being oppressed so much, and i have read that in the quran it is a sin to humiliate or oppress a person of another faith.

So if a person acts such and gives an excuse of religion, then its the persons fault not the religions.

One more thing, the family structure is almost entirely based on the faith the family belongs to. Its very difficult to have a good family structure without having a model to keep as a benchmark.

Religion provides this.

By Ragnarock Raider• 31 Oct 2007 08:37
Ragnarock Raider

They may not explicitly say: go and kill all others who do not believe like you....but they do say (in their won words): OURS is the ONLY way to salvation, and all those who do not accept OUR ways/prophets/beliefs etc... have rejected the "truth" and will burn in eternal hell....do they not?

And wether I believe or not is irrelevant...I can hate bigotry even if its not directy at me....example I may not be black, but I am still against apartheid!

Religion's MAIN goal is not to divide...but it is an unfortunate side effect of trying to offer salvation...after all, if your religion claims that all paths will lead to salvation, what's the incentive to choose that particular religion. In their very nature religions are closeminded and discriminatory....it divides into "true believers" and "non believers".

So instead of looking for and at what is different about each other....we should be searching for what unites us...sorry but Religion is just not one of them.

Stay safe all.

Perfection does not exist. The question therefore, is: what level of imperfection are we willing to settle for?

By Shuaibkazi• 30 Oct 2007 22:27
Shuaibkazi

Religion never told us that the other person is wrong in his beliefs

tell me one word from any religion which says that the other person is wrong

If u will quote something fdrom the bible which mentions wsomething bad about the jews

then do remember that jesus was propably talking about them as a people not as religious sect

And after all he was a jew himself

Arabs when they talk about the infidels or "kafir" as used by the americans inthere war on terror

isnt a bad word as such

it generally means literally "one without faith"

And it is not applied to any one with any kind of religion but to a person who doesnt believe in any faith

So if a person doesnt have any religious belief system like u, he honestly shudnt mind it

After all its just a classification

what iam trying to say is its the teachers of faith who make themistake and not the religion

Any way u might be knowing something that i dont so why dont u give a Quote if u know of some.

And its all with an aim of understanding so others out there no need to become all hyper about it.

By Ragnarock Raider• 30 Oct 2007 16:06
Ragnarock Raider

I didn't bring religion up...Shuaibkazi closed his topic by suggesting it as a remedy! I merely pointed out the folly of trying to cure a burn with FLAMES!

Stay safe all.

Perfection does not exist. The question therefore, is: what level of imperfection are we willing to settle for?

By skdkak closed 1708224867• 30 Oct 2007 16:04
skdkak closed 1708224867

I really liked this philosophy and after reading ur commets read it again and see what you have noticed.

This forum is soon gonna take a religious and fanatic turn. Before it does that.. I am out of here.

..**.. ""They walk among us. They vote & they even reproduce"" ..**..

By stealth• 30 Oct 2007 16:03
stealth

so why bring only religion into the topic? Many major wars of the past had more reasons than religion

By Ragnarock Raider• 30 Oct 2007 15:59
Ragnarock Raider

No one said that Religion was the ONLY source of conflict in the world...I said it was the BIGGEST.

For every exmple of a war you cite with no religious factors playing part you can find one where it is the main reason.

Stay safe all.

Perfection does not exist. The question therefore, is: what level of imperfection are we willing to settle for?

By stealth• 30 Oct 2007 15:55
stealth

the millions killed by the Japanese in Korea and China, thousands killed by the US in Vietnam and Iraq are all due to religion right?

The millions sent to concentration camps in Russia also come into that ragnarock?

By Ragnarock Raider• 30 Oct 2007 15:51
Ragnarock Raider

You were doing so well Shauibkazi....and I was with you 100%...until you had to go a bring Religion into it!

The ONE things that causes the MOST disharmony in the entire history of mankind....the reason killed for most...the bastion of intolerance, closemindedness and bigotry...the absolute WORST way you can teach morality and right and wrong....and THAT is your solution?

Sigh....I guess we are doomed then ;)

Stay safe all.

Perfection does not exist. The question therefore, is: what level of imperfection are we willing to settle for?

By chubby• 30 Oct 2007 15:35
chubby

thats deep .. man .. that makes so much sense .. good writing and you have the concepts covered ..

life goes on ..

By Shuaibkazi• 30 Oct 2007 14:27
Shuaibkazi

i wrote it in college

and the funny thing is iam a finance major

By t_coffee_or_me• 30 Oct 2007 14:18
t_coffee_or_me

Is this your theory or copy and paste

If you can't change your fate, change your attitude.

By stealth• 30 Oct 2007 14:16
stealth

Then t will not be easy for the common man to understand

By Shuaibkazi• 30 Oct 2007 14:06
Shuaibkazi

of course philosophy

By stealth• 30 Oct 2007 13:58
stealth

i sthis physiology or philosophy?

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