I can't believe how some people send the maid to go trick or treat with their children...those parents can't take their toddlers out to trick or treat for half an hour?? Oh dear!
@ cryspy,LOL! i agree that i write in stream of thought,as opposed to paragraphs,apologies for that but i think my stand is pretty clear irrespective of that,but to clarify,i am against them & anyways why would anyone (apart from the lazy mama's themselves!) be in favour???...
@ ex.expat, no worries mate!...i pointed it out because it's a bit much to have someone question one's english language proficiency without even being able to spell the concerned person's name correctly!...
@ Alumnar,to each their own,perhaps you've heard/read that somewhere?Yes,i'm here to rant just like you're here for whatever reason you're here for,last i remember this was/is an online forum & guess what,you're going to have some people that, exactly, rant & i'm one of them,fair enough? to you it's ranting,to me it's speaking my mind & like life,which comes full circle,to each their own,fair enough?...i was being sarcastic when i said "your friend",but surely with your Queen's English you got that did you not?...so let's get something crystal here,are you saying it's ok for mums to be plain lazy,sleep half the day,shop,watch tv & yak on the phone the other half & have the paid help do the child rearing? excuse my command of the language but it's a simple 'YES' or 'NO' question, so if you would be so kind as to answer,i would appreciate it...
& btw,the name is gadArene NOT gadErene,pot calling the kettle black i daresay?!...:)
Xxx - the 'wink' at the end of your post says it all.
Gaderene - do you ever get fed up of ranting? My 'friend' Isobel? You might have to explain it again, yes, unless I work out in the meantime where each of your sentences starts and finishes! I don't suppose your nannies' English was very good.
@ Alumnar,to repeat myself for THE THIRD TIME,i have NOTHING against people who hire help in situations where both parents are working or the couple has 3 or more children or any similar situations,my issue is with the other category of mothers,non-working,1 or 2 kids,spends her day watching tv,on the phone,lunching with the ladies or mindlessly shopping @ the mall while leaving the child rearing to the help,now i'm sure you understand EXACTLY what i'm saying...your friend Isobel is trying to make this out to be an either/or situation. i.e either one has help or one doesn't & is implicating me(& others here) while doing so,BUT it is NOT an either/or situation as i have clearly pointed out above,so if Isobel belongs to the former category,there is no reason whatsoever to take offence or take personally comments made by myself or similar comments made by others...the only reasons as to why she is obviously upset by our comments is if a) she belongs to the latter category & the truth being bitter & all or b)she put her foot in her mouth by stating that it is either/or us vs. them i.e those with help vs. those without & is now finding it extremely difficult to accept that fact & has instead gone on the offensive...
Yes you're right,we don't know about each individual case but what i do know is this,you either hire help because you & your spouse both work or you have 3 or more children or ANY situation that justifies needing help or you hire help 'cos you're just lazy or are too pre-occupied with wordly stuff to bother bringing up your kid...you either NEED help or you WANT help,it's quite simple really,my issue is with those who can raise their kids by themselves but still choose to have maids/nannies do it for them,now really is that so hard to comprehend?...as for the "don't like it leave Qatar" bit,didn't quite get you there,i don't like this place but i like the tax-free salary it offers me,simple...that has ALWAYS been my stance,so i don't know if you were referring to me...anyways,one person having one opinion & a bunch of other having another similar one is called "ganging up" now??? that's a bit of a stretch wouldn't you agree?...i have stated clearly the reasons for my opinion along with the fact that if Isobel is not of the category of women that WANTS rather than NEEDS help,she needn't take offense because i wasn't referring to her,can i be any more crystal about it?...Yet,she hasn't made her stand clear right through this post,choosing instead to personally insult me because of my opinion...nuff said...it would be a bit much if i have to explain myself a FOURTH time...
and am surprised you think it is. In fact, I was simply making a comparison. I don't find either to be a case of ganging up. I find them to be cases of sharing an opinion. No more, no less.
Sorry you think I am expressing "more and more hatred everyday that goes by". I certainly don't feel that way. If I did, I wouldn't come on qatarliving ;)
Whatever you want to think xxxpat - your posts and opinions are your right, such as anyone elses' too. Just read back through all your posts and watch them expressing more and more hatred everyday that goes by. I never ganged up against anybody. Saeedkan will know by now that I don't agree with his constant interfering and many times childlike posts. I expressed my opinion to him many times and since he 'insulted' me I never replied to another of his posts again. But that's not what is under discussion - and I find it 'dirty' of you to hit below the belt by mentioning his name. Saeedkan is not under fire here - stick to the topic!
Btw - this is my last comment on this topic. Good night all.
I didn't want to put my 2 cents in, but I am anyway. Why did this topic turn into Isobel bashing? Why ganging up on her? Was it her own choice to be left to be raised by a nanny? I would be on the defensive too if I was her. Sorry gadarene and xxxpat, you don't know about each individual case. Stick to the topic and please leave your extreme frustrations on your side of the screens. It's literally turning into harrassment! Is this your idea of 'being fair'? Gang up on who tells you to get out of Qatar if you don't like it. Gang up on child abuse, animal abuse, maid abuse, anything you want which is extreme. But try to step back and see the whole picture. I had to do it too to control my frustrations and the embarrassment I feel of living in a country where 'abuse' of any kind is so strong. Before anybody says 'don't like it, leave Qatar' - save your smarta55 comments - I'm one step ahead with a one-way ticket in hand!
How easily you are quick to type in defensive mode! I have explained my situation in an eloquent way. I am not insulted by your comments (as intended by you) simply because I DID NOT understand a word you typed.
For some reason she seems to think everything is about her and that has put her on the defensive, while at the same time making sure we all understand her "background" :)
@ Isobel,now now dear,you don't seem the abusive kind,quite the contrary a "propah" English lady using language like that is quite unbecoming...so did i touch a raw nerve or something?!?! :)...since you obviously didn't get me the first time,to repeat myself...i was referring to lazy mothers who spend their time doing the stuff i mentioned while leaving the child rearing to the help as is the case with MANY kids in THIS TOWN & we are on a forum called QATAR living,are we not? so obviously i'm going to state my opinion on the statusquo IN QATAR...i was NOT referring to working mothers(working split or single shifts),i was NOT referring to mothers who let their kids go trick or treating with the maid because she's cooking for 40 kids...i was NOT referring to mothers who have 3 or more kids & would obviously need help managing all of them...& i could go on but i believe you catch my drift...in fact i'm pretty sure you caught it the first time but somehow you want to turn this into a those with maids/nannies vs. those without but,as with most things in life might i add,it's not just black & white like that...the grey area is what i'm referring to & if you'd use your grey matter before name calling & asking people to "sod off",i wouldn't have to waste my time typing this out to...to summarize,if you're not a lazy mum that sits around watching TV,"lunching" with the ladies or spending hours shopping @ the mall while leaving the maid/nanny to look after her kids,i'm NOT REFERRING TO YOU...
Umm, nomerci, perhaps what gave me that idea was your comment that you would stand corrected if anyone PROVED YOU WRONG...
(Edited because I'm blind as a bat)
And Oryx, it was nomerci's comment that I was addressing. I have no problem with opinion pieces, but as I said before, it's her opinion, not right or wrong.
Others' opinions on the matter may be just as "right" as hers.
I had a Nanny and I went to Boarding School so therefore I support the Nanny/Maid over here.
My nanny was my Mothers nanny. She stayed with the family. Nothing unusual in that. She is still part of our family.
I am that English woman you all hate. She is here with me helping me. She does not bring my kids up like she brought me up but she is here, loving us, helping us and being loved and helped.
My first experience of this fact is when I came to Qatar 5 years ago and stayed with my Qatari sponsor's family.
As I was both the chaperone/driver for the daughters and their son(youngest)..I spend more time with them during their free time.
One afternoon, the son (aged 10 then) came home from a game and came straight to my room showing his bloodied knees and elbows. Instead of running to his mom, he came to me to nurse his wounds. When he's sick, I have to absent myself from work coz he wanted me to take care of him.
The affinity of the children to their household help is inevitable since the maids/drivers spend more time with these kids than their parents who are either busy working or doing their own thing.
Excuses of why parents leave their responsibilities to their maids don't ring true with the expat wives here, especially the Western ones. It's GCC syndrome and the worst part about it is that its victims don't even know they have it! lol
Don't think for one moment they are the Mary Poppins or Nanny McPhee situation. They are tough old birds. I am supposed to be left handed (long story); but I now struggle with writing due to my English Nanny. Good job I had a Teacher that encouraged me to use my left hand and therefore can Teach; my handwriting is still not good.
By the way, I did not see my parents at all when I was at Boarding School. My 'Nanny' did everything for me.
I did not employ my maid because of my experiences by the way; before you all start on that scenario.
chocoholic, I disagree. I think there is a right or wrong.
And I am not challenging anyone. I say what I have to say and answer to what i am replied to. What those people do does not "bug" me in the slightest, I just observed it and stated my opinion about it.
I am also not trying to prove anything, simply stating my opinion. Nothing more, nothing less.
Since you were not there with the "much loved maid" ;)
I thought maids were for helping around the house and people that can't take care of their own kids hire nannies who are well trained in child care and have had proper background checks. Unless of course you are a Western woman who has succumbed to GCC Syndrome ;)
I did once send my kids out on Halloween with our much loved maid. I was glad I did it, gave me time to cook food. They were fine and the children loved it. My maid did not allow them to forget their manners.
Isobel, look, I think at this point it may be best to agree to disagree. As I pointed out to chocoholic, my opinion is formed by experience, lots of it. But of course there are exceptions to the rule, although I strongly believe very, very few.
choco, no, i am not bored, at the moment I am a bit tired.
Anyhow,I posted about something I experienced to day. I have an opinion about it, which stems from 10 years experience in the ME.
Other people post their opinions, as it is mena to be on a forum like this one, and I do reply. They do not necessarily agree with me and vice versa...is there a problem with that?
And IF they can prove me wrong, which so far in this thread they haven't, I will stand corrected. As simple as that.
I am not looking for a fight either....do you see me fighting here??? I do not think so.
How do you know they were not? You are presuming/judging that. Not a wise thing. Some may, some may not. One cannot nor should not make sweeping judgements on people.
I am sure there are some people who never spend time with their children and I they don't have maids.
Doing a Halloween with a child is neither here nor there.
Have you ever considered this; those that send the child out with the maid; it may be the only time they get away from the kids?
Your topic is merely your opinion. Other posters have differing opinions and you criticize their "argument". What's there to argue about...do you always have to be right?
Aren't you the one who's always saying, Each to his own? How do you know a parent's reasons for not going trick or treating?
And you know from experience of course that bringing up maid issues is going to create controversy.
And you're frequently criticizing the "quality" of posts in QL.
I kinda agree with TC on this one :-O
How come you're sitting in QL looking for a fight? You should be ransacking your kid's candy bag :)
Isobel, I saw a lot of families, mums and dads and only dads and only mums....and without wanting to be racist, they were all Western. Not a judgment, but a fact.
I agree it is about help and I am sure a lot abuse that help. However, help may mean that somebody else may take your kids out for Halloween. In England it may be the Grandparents or Aunts/Uncles/Cousins etc. Only because you don't do one seasonal activity with your children does not make you a bad parent.
Isobel, I am not talking about parents who have to maid step in in an emergency or simply help out..see, what I have seen today fits in with all the rest of it...and you do know what I am talking about.
Tell, me do you think those parents wee at home preparing for a kids party? In all seriousness, I believe they would wait for the maid to come back or just hire another one...
@ Isobel,if your kid "chooses" to be with the maid rather than you...newsflash...something is not right with the parenting...comparing spending with a maid as opposed to nephews/nieces wanting to spend time with a "cool" uncle/aunt over their "boring" parents makes no sense @ all...you are family to your nephew/niece,the maid @ the end of the day is someone being paid(often poorly) to watch your kids,they're doing it as a job NOT out of love,so can't really compare the two situations can we?...the Indian driver with no clue how to drive & the maid that lets the kids stand up in the car needs as much sorting out as the fact that the kids spend most of their time with those maids/drivers & to a LARGE extent in THIS PART OF THE WORLD,it's not because poor mommy works a split shift,it's because mommy is out shopping,gossiping with the girls,watching her favourite soap or fast asleep...& can't be arsed to raise her kids the way they should be...
So please don't judge me on your assumptions on how a parent should be or sound.
I did allow my children to go trick or treating with my maid when they were younger, once; I was busy preparing food for the Halloween party my kids had asked me to do.
They invited 40 kids without me knowing it was that many. So forgive me that night the kids went Trick and Treating with the maid that had been there since they were born; the maid did not get up in the night to feed them, nor change nappys nor wean them or teach them manners or morals, the maid was there to step in when I needed her when I could not be. She took them when I was busy with jobs for the kids she could not do.
I am not saying that maids do not 'bring up'some kids, but please don't judge others who through circumstance use their maid to help them. We employ them for that. In return they get money in order to bring their kids up. So a win-win situation don't you think?
But I also know many mums who will rather do ANYTHING ELSE but spending time with their children. So why did they have them in the first place? To many, it makes them part of a bigger community, there are many more mums then single women or married without children in the GCC. The social gratifying aspect. And - boy!!! - do I know some who REALLY use their kids for that reason!!!
Ice, I think there could be may reasons...it could have been an "accident",this is what is "supposed to happen" after they get married, they "thought " they wanted a kid, they think what they are doing is perfectly fine , because that is exactly how they grew up....who knows !
Isobel,I never said that people who have maids are bad parents. I used to have a maid when my kid was little. She would do the cleaning etc, which gave me more time to spend with my kid. and yes, she baby sat....in the evenings when my kid was asleep.
Now, to the child choosing a maid over a parent...well, of course the maid will be indulgent with the child..it is less work, she may not know how to discipline the child properly, she is not allowed to discipline the child, she may be afraid of the repercussions if the child gets upset...so yes, the child may very well choose the maid over the parents..still not a good things though.
And you may think halloween is boring for adults,,,and yes, for some it may be...but you know what, spending time with your child is not necessarily meant to be entertaining for the parents....;)
Cause you sure don't seem to have a clue about parenting.
Stick around and you will see lots of criticism for maids and drivers who don't properly protect children. But the greater criticism is reserved for the idiot parents who hire those people and don't supervise them properly.
When I say "external" influence I do not refer to any nationality. I know of parents within my own community who complain how their kids are getting "influenced" by either TV, or "friends" or how they pick up wrong "behavioural" patterns.
If only parents spend quality time with their kids, monitor them properly, these "external" influences can be negated. But it's hard work, and some of them are not willing to do it.
LOL!!!...hilarious!...people with no clear idea about what Halloween/trick or treating is defending lazy parents!...the ignorance & lack of exposure on display in this town never ceases to amaze me...along with a good laugh thrown in! :)...@ Alumnar,GCC syndrome,if it isn't official,it should be because kids growing up here are to a large extent SPOILT BRATS & i can't stress that more...
To start with they spend more time with the maid/nanny while mummy is out shopping,having coffee with the girls or fast asleep...they can't come out to play for about half the year 'cos it's too damn hot & when they do come out behave like,that's right SPOILT BRATS...
And to top all of that,you have ignoramus' here defending this kind of upbringing...
So what? What if the child chose the maid over the parent. Kids do that. If I were to ask my nephews and neices who they wanted to take them on a picnic, it would be me. Why? I make them sausage rolls and their parents don't. Perhaps the kids know at some level they will have more fun with the maid. I am not saying for one minute the maid will not supervise but Halloween is for kids and not exactly great for adults. It's the same every door; Trick or Treat, the child gets some treats and they are off. It's not like Christmas where you have listened and shopped until you have dropped to get the right present. Halloween actually is a made up American concept. It's not actually a religous celebration any more. So perhaps the parents know this. It is a sweet finding mission, it is a nothing. Yes the kids look cute but that is it.
Why not criticise the parents that send their kids to school with an Indian Driver who has not got a clue how to drive or the maid that allows them to stand up in the car? Now that does need sorting out.
yeah,edifis.. it's good to watch them 10 minutes while they are behind the bars in zoo.. but when these monkeys are your neighbours, when they are classmates of your kids, when later they are your co-workers...it's not funny anymore.. and they became monkeys due to their parents' neglect...
Ice, I don't know their exact nationalities...but that really does not matter either...because I have seen this kind of behaviour in pretty much every nationailty present in Qatar.
I am saying this because you mentioned that they complain about "external influences"...also, they were not Qatari for sure.
Perhaps the parents worked a split shift and the maid taking the children was the only chance the kids had to do Trick or Treating?
Or, it could be the kid chose the maid. I always wanted my Grandad to take me. If you have a good full time maid the children get to know her and want to be with her; there is nothing wrong with that. The parents are not lazy most of the time; it's who the child wants to be with.
I wonder, when they can't be bothered to take care of their kids, why do have them, in the first place?
Breed like rabbits, had over the responsibility of bringing up to others, and then complain their kids are being spoiled by "external" influences....duh
nomerci, some parents wish Halloween would be every day, not only once a year..
every day I see 4-5-6 kids (not sure how many of them, they all look exactly the same, even girls and boys)of 3 to 7 years old, in front of our gates, riding bikes, kicking ball, screaming, jumping like monkeys.. and always 2 maids are sitting on the stairs watching them absolutely indifferently.. Now...I have never seen their Dad..I have seen their mom only once when she came up to my door to start a fight with me, and then to disappear again forever (alhamdullillah!)...she could find time for the fight, but not for spending it with her kids... I feel, her kids are growing like a weed, under the supervision of indifferent and apathetic maids...no wondering all they can do is to scream and jump like monkeys..
Do you know what is the best part of this topic? Ignorant people coming up with even more ignorant excuses for lazy-arsed parents who leave the upbringing of their children to maids who are more the childrens' mothers then their own mothers. And yes, the term GCC Syndrom is perfect - because back home in their countries, these parents (who should NEVER be parents in the first place) juggle jobs AND children as they can't afford full-time nannies. I know many expat women who praise themselves to be wonderful mums, community examples and in charge of parenting groups who rather spend notime at all with their own children - their own choice. They should never have given birth in the first place!!!
here is what I don't get...don't those parents WANT to do this together with their children? don't they WANT to see how happy and excited the kids are and how well they are doing? I know I did when my kid was little...wouldn't have missed it !
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@ cryspy,LOL! i agree that i write in stream of thought,as opposed to paragraphs,apologies for that but i think my stand is pretty clear irrespective of that,but to clarify,i am against them & anyways why would anyone (apart from the lazy mama's themselves!) be in favour???...
@ ex.expat, no worries mate!...i pointed it out because it's a bit much to have someone question one's english language proficiency without even being able to spell the concerned person's name correctly!...
Sorry mate! :)
but maybe that is best... ? ;)
btw gadarene
are U in favor or against these lazy Mama's ?
b/c hardly i can get an idea from ur posts ;)
nomerci, my thoughts exactly...
Oh dear!
@ Alumnar,to each their own,perhaps you've heard/read that somewhere?Yes,i'm here to rant just like you're here for whatever reason you're here for,last i remember this was/is an online forum & guess what,you're going to have some people that, exactly, rant & i'm one of them,fair enough? to you it's ranting,to me it's speaking my mind & like life,which comes full circle,to each their own,fair enough?...i was being sarcastic when i said "your friend",but surely with your Queen's English you got that did you not?...so let's get something crystal here,are you saying it's ok for mums to be plain lazy,sleep half the day,shop,watch tv & yak on the phone the other half & have the paid help do the child rearing? excuse my command of the language but it's a simple 'YES' or 'NO' question, so if you would be so kind as to answer,i would appreciate it...
& btw,the name is gadArene NOT gadErene,pot calling the kettle black i daresay?!...:)
Xxx - the 'wink' at the end of your post says it all.
Gaderene - do you ever get fed up of ranting? My 'friend' Isobel? You might have to explain it again, yes, unless I work out in the meantime where each of your sentences starts and finishes! I don't suppose your nannies' English was very good.
;)
The winds are changing...watch out for her!
But I would love to have her umbrella and bag ;)
Will Mary Poppins work for 800 QR?
@ Alumnar,to repeat myself for THE THIRD TIME,i have NOTHING against people who hire help in situations where both parents are working or the couple has 3 or more children or any similar situations,my issue is with the other category of mothers,non-working,1 or 2 kids,spends her day watching tv,on the phone,lunching with the ladies or mindlessly shopping @ the mall while leaving the child rearing to the help,now i'm sure you understand EXACTLY what i'm saying...your friend Isobel is trying to make this out to be an either/or situation. i.e either one has help or one doesn't & is implicating me(& others here) while doing so,BUT it is NOT an either/or situation as i have clearly pointed out above,so if Isobel belongs to the former category,there is no reason whatsoever to take offence or take personally comments made by myself or similar comments made by others...the only reasons as to why she is obviously upset by our comments is if a) she belongs to the latter category & the truth being bitter & all or b)she put her foot in her mouth by stating that it is either/or us vs. them i.e those with help vs. those without & is now finding it extremely difficult to accept that fact & has instead gone on the offensive...
Yes you're right,we don't know about each individual case but what i do know is this,you either hire help because you & your spouse both work or you have 3 or more children or ANY situation that justifies needing help or you hire help 'cos you're just lazy or are too pre-occupied with wordly stuff to bother bringing up your kid...you either NEED help or you WANT help,it's quite simple really,my issue is with those who can raise their kids by themselves but still choose to have maids/nannies do it for them,now really is that so hard to comprehend?...as for the "don't like it leave Qatar" bit,didn't quite get you there,i don't like this place but i like the tax-free salary it offers me,simple...that has ALWAYS been my stance,so i don't know if you were referring to me...anyways,one person having one opinion & a bunch of other having another similar one is called "ganging up" now??? that's a bit of a stretch wouldn't you agree?...i have stated clearly the reasons for my opinion along with the fact that if Isobel is not of the category of women that WANTS rather than NEEDS help,she needn't take offense because i wasn't referring to her,can i be any more crystal about it?...Yet,she hasn't made her stand clear right through this post,choosing instead to personally insult me because of my opinion...nuff said...it would be a bit much if i have to explain myself a FOURTH time...
and am surprised you think it is. In fact, I was simply making a comparison. I don't find either to be a case of ganging up. I find them to be cases of sharing an opinion. No more, no less.
Sorry you think I am expressing "more and more hatred everyday that goes by". I certainly don't feel that way. If I did, I wouldn't come on qatarliving ;)
Whatever you want to think xxxpat - your posts and opinions are your right, such as anyone elses' too. Just read back through all your posts and watch them expressing more and more hatred everyday that goes by. I never ganged up against anybody. Saeedkan will know by now that I don't agree with his constant interfering and many times childlike posts. I expressed my opinion to him many times and since he 'insulted' me I never replied to another of his posts again. But that's not what is under discussion - and I find it 'dirty' of you to hit below the belt by mentioning his name. Saeedkan is not under fire here - stick to the topic!
Btw - this is my last comment on this topic. Good night all.
imply "ganging up". If that were the case then you and I have "ganged up" on Saeedkan on several occasions.
I take issue with several things Isobel has posted. And I reserve my right to respond when I do, just as she has the right to as well.
I didn't want to put my 2 cents in, but I am anyway. Why did this topic turn into Isobel bashing? Why ganging up on her? Was it her own choice to be left to be raised by a nanny? I would be on the defensive too if I was her. Sorry gadarene and xxxpat, you don't know about each individual case. Stick to the topic and please leave your extreme frustrations on your side of the screens. It's literally turning into harrassment! Is this your idea of 'being fair'? Gang up on who tells you to get out of Qatar if you don't like it. Gang up on child abuse, animal abuse, maid abuse, anything you want which is extreme. But try to step back and see the whole picture. I had to do it too to control my frustrations and the embarrassment I feel of living in a country where 'abuse' of any kind is so strong. Before anybody says 'don't like it, leave Qatar' - save your smarta55 comments - I'm one step ahead with a one-way ticket in hand!
in her native tongue, no less? You surely write a lot - albeit "eloquently" - to say you didn't understand anything, Lady Isobel ;)
How easily you are quick to type in defensive mode! I have explained my situation in an eloquent way. I am not insulted by your comments (as intended by you) simply because I DID NOT understand a word you typed.
Have a good day sir.
I agree :)
For some reason she seems to think everything is about her and that has put her on the defensive, while at the same time making sure we all understand her "background" :)
@ Isobel,now now dear,you don't seem the abusive kind,quite the contrary a "propah" English lady using language like that is quite unbecoming...so did i touch a raw nerve or something?!?! :)...since you obviously didn't get me the first time,to repeat myself...i was referring to lazy mothers who spend their time doing the stuff i mentioned while leaving the child rearing to the help as is the case with MANY kids in THIS TOWN & we are on a forum called QATAR living,are we not? so obviously i'm going to state my opinion on the statusquo IN QATAR...i was NOT referring to working mothers(working split or single shifts),i was NOT referring to mothers who let their kids go trick or treating with the maid because she's cooking for 40 kids...i was NOT referring to mothers who have 3 or more kids & would obviously need help managing all of them...& i could go on but i believe you catch my drift...in fact i'm pretty sure you caught it the first time but somehow you want to turn this into a those with maids/nannies vs. those without but,as with most things in life might i add,it's not just black & white like that...the grey area is what i'm referring to & if you'd use your grey matter before name calling & asking people to "sod off",i wouldn't have to waste my time typing this out to...to summarize,if you're not a lazy mum that sits around watching TV,"lunching" with the ladies or spending hours shopping @ the mall while leaving the maid/nanny to look after her kids,i'm NOT REFERRING TO YOU...
Thanks exexpat, I'm old and blind. I looked back over that a million times.
And now I've lost my own comment that I just typed lol, I think I need some sleep.
Edited my previous comment.
Umm, nomerci, perhaps what gave me that idea was your comment that you would stand corrected if anyone PROVED YOU WRONG...
(Edited because I'm blind as a bat)
And Oryx, it was nomerci's comment that I was addressing. I have no problem with opinion pieces, but as I said before, it's her opinion, not right or wrong.
Others' opinions on the matter may be just as "right" as hers.
Oh dear!
neither does it you
It's still on the first page at 11:35:
And IF they can prove me wrong, which so far in this thread they haven't, I will stand corrected.
Read more: http://www.qatarliving.com/node/1419887#ixzz13ySeHEMR
you because you had a nanny. Other reasons maybe, but the world doesn't revolve around you dear ;)
I had a Nanny and I went to Boarding School so therefore I support the Nanny/Maid over here.
My nanny was my Mothers nanny. She stayed with the family. Nothing unusual in that. She is still part of our family.
I am that English woman you all hate. She is here with me helping me. She does not bring my kids up like she brought me up but she is here, loving us, helping us and being loved and helped.
coz they can't be bothered with kiddy stuff are not worthy to be called parents. PERIOD
My first experience of this fact is when I came to Qatar 5 years ago and stayed with my Qatari sponsor's family.
As I was both the chaperone/driver for the daughters and their son(youngest)..I spend more time with them during their free time.
One afternoon, the son (aged 10 then) came home from a game and came straight to my room showing his bloodied knees and elbows. Instead of running to his mom, he came to me to nurse his wounds. When he's sick, I have to absent myself from work coz he wanted me to take care of him.
The affinity of the children to their household help is inevitable since the maids/drivers spend more time with these kids than their parents who are either busy working or doing their own thing.
Also the kids maybe better off with the maid than their own mother....
there are kids on my compound...whose parents never play outside with them....
i would have no clue what they look like...but i do know what the maids look like....
I much prefer a thread with an opinion/personal experience than
a. copy and paste
b. love thread
c. spam
d. unfunny joke
e. a question that has been asked a gazillion times (visa/salary etc)
So you may not like the topic etc but at least it is an original thought....
Xxxpat - most expat women know it, but chose to ignore it. That's easier to do as they don't have a conscience and therefore can't feel guilty!
Boarding schools and nannies without parental involvement. You brought it up so you can't really blame us for thinking the obvious.
chocoholic, I can only repeat myself...I , in no way, am challenging anybody or trying to prove anything. What on earth gave you that idea??
Excuses of why parents leave their responsibilities to their maids don't ring true with the expat wives here, especially the Western ones. It's GCC syndrome and the worst part about it is that its victims don't even know they have it! lol
exex, nothing personal, nomerci is the OP. She stated an opinion and challenged others to prove her wrong.
I just think there's nothing to be proven, that's all.
Don't think for one moment they are the Mary Poppins or Nanny McPhee situation. They are tough old birds. I am supposed to be left handed (long story); but I now struggle with writing due to my English Nanny. Good job I had a Teacher that encouraged me to use my left hand and therefore can Teach; my handwriting is still not good.
By the way, I did not see my parents at all when I was at Boarding School. My 'Nanny' did everything for me.
I did not employ my maid because of my experiences by the way; before you all start on that scenario.
chocoholic, I disagree. I think there is a right or wrong.
And I am not challenging anyone. I say what I have to say and answer to what i am replied to. What those people do does not "bug" me in the slightest, I just observed it and stated my opinion about it.
I am also not trying to prove anything, simply stating my opinion. Nothing more, nothing less.
Take it or leave it.
I think the candies are better than the maids or the parents.
OR whatever your name is...sod off. You are a prat.
Someone pass me the ketchup please! and some pepper would be nice.
nomerci as if she is the only one disagreeing? There are a number of us who agree that this is a parent's duty, not a maid's.
You don't have a personal agenda, do you mate? Cause it sure seems like it...
Such a shame you didn't have a British Nanny. They NEVER leave the kids alone ;)
Where is Mary Poppins when you need her?
I am laughing so much at that! My parents left me alone one Christmas and I ate all the Christmas chocolates. It was not a pretty sight. x
My parents left me alone for 5 minutes one Diwali, I set my face on fire, Since then I have to celebrate all festivals under their supervision :(
There's nothing to prove, nomerci.
It bugs you that some people send their kids trick or treating with the maid.
Others think it's not a big deal (or maybe none of your business).
You're challenging others to prove you wrong.
Differing opinions, there's not really a right or wrong as far as I can see.
Since you were not there with the "much loved maid" ;)
I thought maids were for helping around the house and people that can't take care of their own kids hire nannies who are well trained in child care and have had proper background checks. Unless of course you are a Western woman who has succumbed to GCC Syndrome ;)
oh dear!
Ok, I am quite happy to agree to disagree. BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO by the way and Happy Halloween x
Isobel, you are lucky to have an excellent maid.:)
edifis, I just munched on some paprika crisps..very delicious!
I did once send my kids out on Halloween with our much loved maid. I was glad I did it, gave me time to cook food. They were fine and the children loved it. My maid did not allow them to forget their manners.
Isobel, look, I think at this point it may be best to agree to disagree. As I pointed out to chocoholic, my opinion is formed by experience, lots of it. But of course there are exceptions to the rule, although I strongly believe very, very few.
I would love to have an ostrich egg omlette now.
choco, no, i am not bored, at the moment I am a bit tired.
Anyhow,I posted about something I experienced to day. I have an opinion about it, which stems from 10 years experience in the ME.
Other people post their opinions, as it is mena to be on a forum like this one, and I do reply. They do not necessarily agree with me and vice versa...is there a problem with that?
And IF they can prove me wrong, which so far in this thread they haven't, I will stand corrected. As simple as that.
I am not looking for a fight either....do you see me fighting here??? I do not think so.
And I already had my fingers in the candy bag :)
How do you know they were not? You are presuming/judging that. Not a wise thing. Some may, some may not. One cannot nor should not make sweeping judgements on people.
I am sure there are some people who never spend time with their children and I they don't have maids.
Doing a Halloween with a child is neither here nor there.
Have you ever considered this; those that send the child out with the maid; it may be the only time they get away from the kids?
nomerci, are you bored??
Your topic is merely your opinion. Other posters have differing opinions and you criticize their "argument". What's there to argue about...do you always have to be right?
Aren't you the one who's always saying, Each to his own? How do you know a parent's reasons for not going trick or treating?
And you know from experience of course that bringing up maid issues is going to create controversy.
And you're frequently criticizing the "quality" of posts in QL.
I kinda agree with TC on this one :-O
How come you're sitting in QL looking for a fight? You should be ransacking your kid's candy bag :)
Isobel, I saw a lot of families, mums and dads and only dads and only mums....and without wanting to be racist, they were all Western. Not a judgment, but a fact.
I agree it is about help and I am sure a lot abuse that help. However, help may mean that somebody else may take your kids out for Halloween. In England it may be the Grandparents or Aunts/Uncles/Cousins etc. Only because you don't do one seasonal activity with your children does not make you a bad parent.
Isobel, I am not talking about parents who have to maid step in in an emergency or simply help out..see, what I have seen today fits in with all the rest of it...and you do know what I am talking about.
Tell, me do you think those parents wee at home preparing for a kids party? In all seriousness, I believe they would wait for the maid to come back or just hire another one...
Just noticed this about Mums. What about the Dads doing Halloween?
Domestic help is what it is ....."help" not a substitute...which unfortunately some parents can't seem to comprehend.
@ Isobel,if your kid "chooses" to be with the maid rather than you...newsflash...something is not right with the parenting...comparing spending with a maid as opposed to nephews/nieces wanting to spend time with a "cool" uncle/aunt over their "boring" parents makes no sense @ all...you are family to your nephew/niece,the maid @ the end of the day is someone being paid(often poorly) to watch your kids,they're doing it as a job NOT out of love,so can't really compare the two situations can we?...the Indian driver with no clue how to drive & the maid that lets the kids stand up in the car needs as much sorting out as the fact that the kids spend most of their time with those maids/drivers & to a LARGE extent in THIS PART OF THE WORLD,it's not because poor mommy works a split shift,it's because mommy is out shopping,gossiping with the girls,watching her favourite soap or fast asleep...& can't be arsed to raise her kids the way they should be...
And then they complain about society is getting messed up?
and I did employ a maid when they were younger.
So please don't judge me on your assumptions on how a parent should be or sound.
I did allow my children to go trick or treating with my maid when they were younger, once; I was busy preparing food for the Halloween party my kids had asked me to do.
They invited 40 kids without me knowing it was that many. So forgive me that night the kids went Trick and Treating with the maid that had been there since they were born; the maid did not get up in the night to feed them, nor change nappys nor wean them or teach them manners or morals, the maid was there to step in when I needed her when I could not be. She took them when I was busy with jobs for the kids she could not do.
I am not saying that maids do not 'bring up'some kids, but please don't judge others who through circumstance use their maid to help them. We employ them for that. In return they get money in order to bring their kids up. So a win-win situation don't you think?
But I also know many mums who will rather do ANYTHING ELSE but spending time with their children. So why did they have them in the first place? To many, it makes them part of a bigger community, there are many more mums then single women or married without children in the GCC. The social gratifying aspect. And - boy!!! - do I know some who REALLY use their kids for that reason!!!
Ice, I think there could be may reasons...it could have been an "accident",this is what is "supposed to happen" after they get married, they "thought " they wanted a kid, they think what they are doing is perfectly fine , because that is exactly how they grew up....who knows !
Hey, don't have to. I consider you just another "paranoid" Mum like me :)
What really upsets me, why do some people have the kids, when they can't handle the responsibility? :(
Ice, ok, sorry, I misunderstood!
Isobel,I never said that people who have maids are bad parents. I used to have a maid when my kid was little. She would do the cleaning etc, which gave me more time to spend with my kid. and yes, she baby sat....in the evenings when my kid was asleep.
Now, to the child choosing a maid over a parent...well, of course the maid will be indulgent with the child..it is less work, she may not know how to discipline the child properly, she is not allowed to discipline the child, she may be afraid of the repercussions if the child gets upset...so yes, the child may very well choose the maid over the parents..still not a good things though.
And you may think halloween is boring for adults,,,and yes, for some it may be...but you know what, spending time with your child is not necessarily meant to be entertaining for the parents....;)
while stay at home mummy or daddy sit on their arses, are terrible parents in my opinion. And they do not represent 85% of the people here.
Cause you sure don't seem to have a clue about parenting.
Stick around and you will see lots of criticism for maids and drivers who don't properly protect children. But the greater criticism is reserved for the idiot parents who hire those people and don't supervise them properly.
When I say "external" influence I do not refer to any nationality. I know of parents within my own community who complain how their kids are getting "influenced" by either TV, or "friends" or how they pick up wrong "behavioural" patterns.
If only parents spend quality time with their kids, monitor them properly, these "external" influences can be negated. But it's hard work, and some of them are not willing to do it.
So those people that have maids are terrible parents? Be careful you have just offended 85% of the population.
LOL!!!...hilarious!...people with no clear idea about what Halloween/trick or treating is defending lazy parents!...the ignorance & lack of exposure on display in this town never ceases to amaze me...along with a good laugh thrown in! :)...@ Alumnar,GCC syndrome,if it isn't official,it should be because kids growing up here are to a large extent SPOILT BRATS & i can't stress that more...
To start with they spend more time with the maid/nanny while mummy is out shopping,having coffee with the girls or fast asleep...they can't come out to play for about half the year 'cos it's too damn hot & when they do come out behave like,that's right SPOILT BRATS...
And to top all of that,you have ignoramus' here defending this kind of upbringing...
So what? What if the child chose the maid over the parent. Kids do that. If I were to ask my nephews and neices who they wanted to take them on a picnic, it would be me. Why? I make them sausage rolls and their parents don't. Perhaps the kids know at some level they will have more fun with the maid. I am not saying for one minute the maid will not supervise but Halloween is for kids and not exactly great for adults. It's the same every door; Trick or Treat, the child gets some treats and they are off. It's not like Christmas where you have listened and shopped until you have dropped to get the right present. Halloween actually is a made up American concept. It's not actually a religous celebration any more. So perhaps the parents know this. It is a sweet finding mission, it is a nothing. Yes the kids look cute but that is it.
Why not criticise the parents that send their kids to school with an Indian Driver who has not got a clue how to drive or the maid that allows them to stand up in the car? Now that does need sorting out.
lame thread nomerci...i expect better from you!
qatarisun...your earnings must be high enough to make you stay here & live among monkeys.
That would only be if Qatari young men trick or treated ;)
flan......lol
That says it all right there Isobel. And btw, it's not that common for a family here to have both parents working nights.
it could be worse, they could've driven around the compound and honked their horns at every door.
QS...you are chatting with a male proboscis monkey! I can feel that you don't like me at all. You only want me behind bars.
edifis, once they are old enough they do.
The kids should go alone.
Isobel, the parents were at home.
And IF the child chooses the maid over the parents...'nuff said!
yeah,edifis.. it's good to watch them 10 minutes while they are behind the bars in zoo.. but when these monkeys are your neighbours, when they are classmates of your kids, when later they are your co-workers...it's not funny anymore.. and they became monkeys due to their parents' neglect...
Ice, I don't know their exact nationalities...but that really does not matter either...because I have seen this kind of behaviour in pretty much every nationailty present in Qatar.
I am saying this because you mentioned that they complain about "external influences"...also, they were not Qatari for sure.
Perhaps the parents worked a split shift and the maid taking the children was the only chance the kids had to do Trick or Treating?
Or, it could be the kid chose the maid. I always wanted my Grandad to take me. If you have a good full time maid the children get to know her and want to be with her; there is nothing wrong with that. The parents are not lazy most of the time; it's who the child wants to be with.
and for sure, can't be a westerner maid, so where the influence came :P
I wonder, when they can't be bothered to take care of their kids, why do have them, in the first place?
Breed like rabbits, had over the responsibility of bringing up to others, and then complain their kids are being spoiled by "external" influences....duh
alumnar, am not sure about the GCc syndrome...I thought that only ails Westerners....
I like monkies very much.
this is something too harsh
lol,brit ..lol..
lol at all of you guys..
nomerci, some parents wish Halloween would be every day, not only once a year..
every day I see 4-5-6 kids (not sure how many of them, they all look exactly the same, even girls and boys)of 3 to 7 years old, in front of our gates, riding bikes, kicking ball, screaming, jumping like monkeys.. and always 2 maids are sitting on the stairs watching them absolutely indifferently.. Now...I have never seen their Dad..I have seen their mom only once when she came up to my door to start a fight with me, and then to disappear again forever (alhamdullillah!)...she could find time for the fight, but not for spending it with her kids... I feel, her kids are growing like a weed, under the supervision of indifferent and apathetic maids...no wondering all they can do is to scream and jump like monkeys..
Do you know what is the best part of this topic? Ignorant people coming up with even more ignorant excuses for lazy-arsed parents who leave the upbringing of their children to maids who are more the childrens' mothers then their own mothers. And yes, the term GCC Syndrom is perfect - because back home in their countries, these parents (who should NEVER be parents in the first place) juggle jobs AND children as they can't afford full-time nannies. I know many expat women who praise themselves to be wonderful mums, community examples and in charge of parenting groups who rather spend notime at all with their own children - their own choice. They should never have given birth in the first place!!!
I like candies too much, to let my maid go out with the kids!
On second thoughts I don't have a maid to take my kids out for "trick or treating".
And finally I don't have kids for my maid to take out for candies.
But...sure thing... I always have lots of candies in stock.
brit, who is???
But she's 23 :O(
I would've loved to go trick or treating with my little one had she been here....
i shall have the maid reply and provide my opinion to this post when she has finished carrying me up the stairs...
It's beginning to make me think about the cost of working abroad. :(
ex.ex.expat...
Sadly, One of the downsides of being away .. Hope she has a great time :O)
and she is just getting ready to go out. I can't tell you how much I wish I was there and can't imagine handing it over to a maid :(
ROFL
brit, stop it
Perhaps the kids feel closer to the maid than the parents..
those parents must have been caught by the GCC syndrome....you just give birth to the children, its the maid who raise them.
here is what I don't get...don't those parents WANT to do this together with their children? don't they WANT to see how happy and excited the kids are and how well they are doing? I know I did when my kid was little...wouldn't have missed it !
as a maid? ;)
parents must be busy scaring each other.
and have domestic help. And they are indeed lazy arses and sad excuses for parents to miss out on what is a big night for their tots.
Lion King, I'm always watching my back. ;)
saeed, personally if U belong to Parents category, than U 've every right to loud ur voice, else better U keep quite.
Nomerci, are the parents QL members? :) It could be a trick, you never know.... watch your back :)
people celebrating halloween in Qatari style :)
saeed, they were not Qatari...I also doubt that Qatari kids go for trick or treat here in Qatar.
So far none of your arguments have made any sense.
novi...are you sure they did???
saeed, as I said, the parents are at home.
you paid for the maid's wages, make the most of it !
http://www.qatarliving.com/node/1419566
lol Oryx, so it seems. Must be the parents posting...;)
forget it - you have no hope!
look on the bright side non-merci at least it allows the maid out of the house for a while...
saeed, the lazy arses re the parents who can't spare half an hour to spend with their kids for trick or treat once a year.
saeed,no, it is night time now...and they are at home.
saeed, I do not know them personally...I just saw their kids with the maid knocking on my door for trick or treat.
..