A very touchy subject
Ok, this is a very very sensitive subject to everyone, everywhere, regardless of culture, religion, race or sex. There is not a country in the world that it is not affected by it and that is not trying to combat it in some way. I'm talking about pedophilia.
I'm bringing it up in relation to the kidnappers/charity workers. When the man said the children were being kidnapped for pedophile organizations, I decided to look it up and see what the likely hood of this would be (not very, most "pedophile organizations" are cyberbased) however one thing I did discover was several articles along the same subject. Here's one:
http://www.thestar.com/News/Ideas/article/268633
I have never thought of pedophilia as under researched. But it does make sense. If I think about it myself, do I really want to know WHY these people (I use that term lightly) do what they do, or would I rather they just be punished. Also, what does it mean if we find out it is biological, and these people can't help what they do :S What does that mean?
I don't want to start a fight or culture bashing, as I said this is a problem EVERYWHERE, I would just like to hear other peoples opinions on this. Would you like to know what causes it, or would you rather just see them punished?
But here we go again.
"There was even Holy words about rivers flowing into oceans & how there is a thin line to seperate salty waters of the ocean from "sweet" water of the river. SUCH THINGS WAS SCIENTIFICALLY DISCOVERED IN THE PAST FEW YEARS."
I would suggest this has been known by all that lived near coasts, deltas etc since the dawn of homo sapiens.
Further research may have discovered new facts about this delineation in recent years but to claim the whole concept was unknown and only revealed in a holy book is to have made yourself an unquestioning recipient of religious propaganda.
But I guess the more faith you have in these things despite evidence to the contrary will be seen as more pious and rewarding in heaven.
I don't go to mythical places with strange men.
-- Douglas Adams, The Long Dark Tea-Time of the Soul.
1/9 of the iceberg is above water
"Be strong but not arrogant
Be modest but not weak"
S.H
We are talking about layers/stratum of earth & how mountains have been created...they are discovering new theories each day where everything is falling in place at last... just like a jigsaw puzzel.
There was even Holy words about rivers flowing into oceans & how there is a thin line to seperate salty waters of the ocean from "sweet" water of the river. Such thing was scientifically discovered in the past few years.
"Be strong but not arrogant
Be modest but not weak"
S.H
are we talking icebergs here? oops a bit late posting cos I was reading, but icebergs are two-thirds under water and one-third above, aren't they? Just wondered if that was the confusion here re mountains etc.
I don't have this wrong. :)
[img_assist|nid=45848|title=Buddy Jesus|desc=I'm your buddy ;)|link=none|align=left|width=|height=0]
"You don't have to like me for who I am but we'll see what you're made of by what you make of me." Ani Difranco
Thanks Mrs. And the good thing is, I think for the most part we've managed to have this discussion without personally insulting anyone. :D
"You don't have to like me for who I am but we'll see what you're made of by what you make of me." Ani Difranco
let's shake hands & agree that it is a kind of joy to discover the different other perspectives.
I am enjoying this discovery journey of others, that is helping me to discover some hidden places inside of me, which I would have never thought of discovering, if not for those who disagreed with me.
Gypsy, this was all in YOUR thread, so thank you. I will give you my vote for the best thread of the month :-)
"Be strong but not arrogant
Be modest but not weak"
S.H
All that information can also be discovered in the writings of Greek and Roman Philosophers centuries before the start of the monotheastic religions. The reason it appears to be "new" information is because the spread of Christianity and the fall of the Roman Empire brought with it the "Dark Ages" and all of this old philosophy was destroyed OR wound up in the hands of the Arabs. There is nothing in the Quran that hadn't been phiosophized and explored before.
"You don't have to like me for who I am but we'll see what you're made of by what you make of me." Ani Difranco
that mountains bedrock are twice the size in depth to their height cannot be correct as mountains have different heights, and where there are no mountains there is still bedrock!
Hmmmm... sounds like taking a phrase in a holy book and trying to fit it to scientific discovery without really understanding the science and end up making the holy text look very silly indeed.
Sorry to be off topic but if people claim divine laws over Man's behaviour they had better have solid proof the 'Divine' exists. when science is used as proof they had better get it right ALL the time. Thus the rebuttal.
I don't go to mythical places with strange men.
-- Douglas Adams, The Long Dark Tea-Time of the Soul.
Reminds me of quote I once heard...something along the lines of:
Frankly, I have no flaws...i'm perfect....unless you consider immodesty a flaw, in which case I have but ONE flaw =p
Glad we can laugh about it and I guess agree to disagree in the end...you think I make wrong assumptions....I think you make wrong assumptions...You think i'm twisting history....I think you're twisting history...lol...the cycle will never end...I guess in the end to each his own...I won't impose my ways of thinking if you won't impose yours.
Salax no need to apologize...I really am not mad...like I said this medium is hard to communicate in because so much of communication is tone and bodylanguage etc...I know you agree with Mrs and disagree with me...that's alright...we are not going to change each others minds...but I too apologize if my posts sound harsh...i'm trying not to be rude, but I do not always succeed.
And now back to the original topic with my apologies Miss Gypsy!
Stay safe all.
Perfection does not exist. The question therefore, is: what level of imperfection are we willing to settle for?
as I said earlier; since you made many wrong assumption, I can not give credit to your opinions anymore & I would be wasting my time trying to make you see the facts/history. But you are welcome to believe what you want & I agree that we are different & we will NEVER meet in our perspectives even if the coin had 1 face.
As for me, I ame sending you this with a smile:
[img_assist|nid=45829|title=|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=|height=0]
when was this discovered? Who told you this?
What about very tall hills, or just ordinary hills?
The Himalayas are folded sedimentary deposits - you can see the folds, they don't have depth unless you mean the underlying bedrock (different from the folded material) which extends beneath areas with no mountains.
I don't go to mythical places with strange men.
-- Douglas Adams, The Long Dark Tea-Time of the Soul.
It is not my goal in life to entertain closeminded bigots who can't think for themselves....laugh all you want...wether everyone laughs with you (at me)...or wonders what you are laughing about...hardly matters one way or another sice neither of us will convert the other.
As I said to Mrs....the goal here is to present both sides of the argument...and anyone who reads it can decide for themselves what is bullspoo and what is not.
Stay safe.
Perfection does not exist. The question therefore, is: what level of imperfection are we willing to settle for?
You can say that I am inflexible...and you MAY be right....but the fact you keep arguing would indicate that you are just as inflexible.
Wether you agree with it or not....there is no absolute truth of the divinity of the 10 commandements, otherwise no "leap of faith" is required....they are man made and this historic fact not twisting of anything...the fact you refuse to believe in history (well not just you but all religion) is an indication of how threatened by logic they are.
Salax reaping that there MUST be a god because we do not know all the answers is further proof of the fraily of the human psyche and its NEED for answers (even if later generations discard those answers...as is the case with most ancient mythologies for example).
1st, 2rd, or 3rd world countries....all have problems and none are perfect...but your insistance on being the judge of what IS a social disease is ludicrus because all cultures view things differently....example would be homosexuality and how it is condemed by all religions save ONE (ancient greek mythology)...and polygamy and how it is condemmed by all save ONE (a certain sect of Islam...because the other has "pleasure" marriages....basically religiously sanctioned sex for compensation)...so why discrad one and believe in the other? which divine laws will you choose to govern human interaction?
Clearly religion is a very poor way to govern interaction among people...and most of todays religions (as bigoted as they are) further reinforce the need to find a better way to get along.
Hopefully one day you will realize this...but of course you are free to believe in what you want....no matter how illogical and controversial...and at the end of the day....i'm not even really trying to change YOUR mind...it is set...just as mine is...what I am doing is offering the "other side of the coin" to anyone who reads the thread...and they can make up their own minds.
Lastly, so sorry to have moved so far off topic Gypsy.
Stay safe all.
Perfection does not exist. The question therefore, is: what level of imperfection are we willing to settle for?
Please explain. And a different question - How are shell fossils found on mountain tops then?
I don't go to mythical places with strange men.
-- Douglas Adams, The Long Dark Tea-Time of the Soul.
you can find amazing scientific facts about embros, geology, astrology, medicine...etc. Facts that some of them have been discoverd in the past few years, while some of them is still a mystery. When the words of these books are thousands of years old, then no man has made them. I don't know about you, but I, and millions of people are following Divine laws, no man-made laws. And as Rock confirmed, all holy books condemn homosexuality, for example. This means that God, in all His religions, condemn ugly, abnormal things which nowadays, people in most countries of the world are suffereing from because they simply forgot about the basic (Divine) laws.
You are free to believe that there is no proof of God, but that does not change the fact that the majority of the population on earth have found the proofs on God, are believing in God, and have Holy books that contain Divine laws.
"Be strong but not arrogant
Be modest but not weak"
S.H
Mrs. If there were any proof that there was a God, or that any of the Holy books came from a higher being, then I would agree with you. Until then, you are still just following man made laws, and discriminatory ones at that.
"You don't have to like me for who I am but we'll see what you're made of by what you make of me." Ani Difranco
Actually when I asked you those (example) question about conservativeness, I wasn't expecting you to answer each one, but you did, thank you.
I was just asking those questions in order to show you that "conservativeness" could be a very very wide range of approved & rejected items by different people, whether it concerned sex, dress code, or the everyday living, and that (here we go in circles again) when opinions disagree, neither you, nor me, nor any man-made law/rule is perfect enough to draw the line/limits & set the parameters & definitions. If you disapprove marrying between cousins, if you refuse to see that your swinger/homosexual neighbors are polluting the neighborhood/community, if you chose to reject pedophiles because the victims are children while you support abortion although the victims are helpless souls, and if I disagree with you in all the above, then we have to refer to something that is wiser & more perfect than the human law to judge between us, as I refuse to believe in your human laws that were made by humans who share the same perspective on life as you, and you refuse to believe in mine. This is when the role of God is very essential.
You can go on claiming that people who oppose to births out of wedlock, are 3rd world mentalities, I can go on claiming that people who accept births out of wedlock are people who lack values and are a social disease, and this way we will NEVER meet. There must be something Perfect & fully Wise to judge between us. Something Divine & Holy.
Rock…ummmm…you are still not making sense
You are making more & more wrong assumptions & this is assuring me that all your opinions are questionable.
I NEVER said that Hamurabi is a joke, and I never said that you claimed that God took Hamurabi's laws. I know you said that the 10 commandments are taken from Hamurabi's laws, but the 10 commandments ARE God's words!
Yes I agree that history is not an opinion, that is why I am telling you that it never happened that Hamurabi's laws have contributed to any of God's Holy books (including the 10 commandments).
Comparisons ARE possible and statistics are reliable but only when your reasoning is reliable. Assuming that I said things which I didn't, does not make your reasoning reliable.
It seems to me that you are not the type of person who is willing to consider different opinions than yours, that you are even willing to twist history/facts to conform with your opinions, that you consider people who disagree with you of a lower degree (backwards/3rd world countries), and that you deny the existence of social diseases in "1st world" countries…I hope you will see the truth some day.
"Be strong but not arrogant
Be modest but not weak"
S.H
That's the definition I just came up with. I hope you don't think it's racist? 3rd world mentality is a derogatory term, so, I couldn't really not be derogatory when I defined it.
"You don't have to like me for who I am but we'll see what you're made of by what you make of me." Ani Difranco
Gypsy , is that your definition or you quoted someone else?
"A 3rd world mentality would be a conservative mentality that hasn't been subjected to the education that came with industrialization. They would be supersitious, fundamentally religious, (usually) illiterate," etc.
that would be really amazing if it's yours ???
Some are Wise ... Some are ...Otherwise
Thank you Ragna, you took the words right out of my mouth.
"You don't have to like me for who I am but we'll see what you're made of by what you make of me." Ani Difranco
This is a text based medium of communication so a lot of the nuances are missed but if you want to be stricly literal then that's fine too.
You said Hamurabi was a joke and never explained what you were laughing about...so its up for interpretation.
I also never said GOD took Hamurabi's laws (in fact I don't beleive in god)...your ASSUMPTIONS in this matter are clearly wrong...I said the Ten commandements (which are believed in holy books) are taken from Hamurabi's law...and THAT you cannot be mistaken about, since its not an opinion and its history (history either happened or it didn't).
Wether polygamy or homosexuality (or anything else for that matter) is a social disease or not is a matter of opinion, and while you are entitled to yours, I too am entitled to mine...which only serves to reinforce why comparisons would not be possible since we are talking about a different set of definitions.
Lastly, I disagree with your point that if a person is wrong about ANY assumption you can dismiss anything they say in the future....IF you disagree with any assuptions, simply point them out and i'll be glad to discuss them with you.
But so far all i've gotten from you is that you do not believe in (at least this particular instance of) history...women were made to be screwed....and that YOUR definition of social disease is the only one that counts....WRONG on all counts!
Stay safe.
Perfection does not exist. The question therefore, is: what level of imperfection are we willing to settle for?
Well I know a Qatari who is HIV, and he (and OTHERS) he said, travel outside of the country for treatment and for medication. To keep it private and out of the country stats.
"You don't have to like me for who I am but we'll see what you're made of by what you make of me." Ani Difranco
Just for fun checked the Aids world wide figures for 2006 found the following, Middle-East/ North Africa 460,000 infected which is 0.2% of the adult population. What really surprised me ( or maybe not) the treatment using ARV ( Antiretroviral Therapy) which is the standard at present was the following: Middle-East/North Africa 4000 treatments against a required treatment of 75,000, giving us a wonderful percentage of 5% of people being treated. That was the lowest, the next was 13% and the highest 59% which was in Sub-Sahara Africa, not surprisingly as there know and recognise that they have a problem.
The terms DO refer to an earlier cold war era and are now largely defunct...and yes they do carry a negative connotation...I was simply trying to be mopre diplomatic and look for a term less derogatory than "backwards"...but I guess since I was forced to define what I meant anyways it didn't really help.
Stay safe.
Perfection does not exist. The question therefore, is: what level of imperfection are we willing to settle for?
I NEVER said that Hamurabi did not exist. But no God took Hamu's laws to make Holly books.
Claiming that I denied the existance of Hamurabi is yet another mistake of yours. 3rd world countries was also a mistake.
The bottom line is, when a person has such mistakes, then he/she is also mistaken in most his/her opinions.
Therefor it would not be easy to accept your opinion about polygamy as a social disease. (your previous assumptions were mistaken)
"Be strong but not arrogant
Be modest but not weak"
S.H
MRs! Bullet Points Please! I always end up missing some of your questions.
To that list of countries you put, no none of them are 3rd world. Turkey and the Filipines used to be consider I think, but as I said it's a dated term and no longer applies as all countries are considered industrialized now. I believe Chezchslovakia and some other Eastern nations were considered 3rd world ...actually they may have been 2nd world (Communist nations are 2nd world). It's an obsolete term and really quite prejudiced (sorry Ragna). I was simply defining it, not condoning it. :)
By conservative as well I did not neccessarily mean sexual mores and values, it also applies to general everyday life. Dress, speech, financial matters, etc. You are a conservative person in your ideas of what constitutes proper sexual behaviour, however for all I know, you could be very unconservative in the way you speak or what books you like to read.
As for these "Is giving birth out of wedlock conservative or open? Is refusing anal sex coservative or open? Is marrying a cousin conservative or open? Is saving the viginity to the man in a woman's life conservation or open? Is refusing to commit adultry conservative or open? Is refusing to be involved in swinging & 3somes conservative or open? Is refusing sex with animals conservative or open?"
Ok, just to clarify, sex with animals is illegal in all countries and considered cruelty to animals. I would actually say those who support laws against cruelty to animals are more liberal then the people who don't, and who consider animals to be not deserving of protecting (take a look at Animal Kingdom and tell me if you think that owner is liberal or conservative :)) Frankly I chalk people who have sex with animals up to the same levels as pedophiles.
I'm not sure what marrying a cousin is, in my culture it's a HUGE no no because of health issues. However here in the heart of the Muslim world it is considered to be perfectly normal and preferred, especially by the most religious families.
As to the rest of the stuff, it's not really a matter of conservative or open, they are all personal choices. I mean, with the exception that If I don't marry by the time I'm 35 I'm going to have a child on my own, I wouldn't recommend those things to anyone, and frankly if people want to do it, I don't want to know. I think the whole thing about conservative v. open is that more "conservative" people feel they have the right to force their conservative views on others and make them live like they live, whereas more "open" people think that everyone has the right to make their own decisions in these matters that really don't affect anyone but themselves. It's nothing to me if my neighbour is a swinger, or a homosexual, or loves to get it up the bum. I don't care, as long as he's not making me do it.
"You don't have to like me for who I am but we'll see what you're made of by what you make of me." Ani Difranco
It is YOU who needs to study history if you do not know who Hamurabi was....I wonder who is twisting history if they think the existence of Hamurabi was a joke?
As for social diseases, of course they exist, BUT they all depend on your definition don't they? So you want to compare say Bahrain to the Netherlands...fine....even ignoring the fact that ONE of them has no accurate statistics (no points for guessing which)....If we use YOUR definition of social disease (lets say homosexuality), then MAYBE Bahrain wins (again maybe because there is no proof there are less gays there)...but now lets say we use MY definition of social disease (i'm going to pick Polygamny for the purposes of this debate)...lo and behold, now The Netherlands wins!!
So you see Mrs...your comparisons really depend on your definitions....and we have yet to establish a mutually acceptable definition....so its not that I "lack clever words" as you put it, but rather your inability to grasp the meaning of what I am saying that is the problem.
Stay safe.
Perfection does not exist. The question therefore, is: what level of imperfection are we willing to settle for?
You, and whoever told you that I am a male, are dirt.
Rock, at least Gypsy has managed to put some clever words in defining things. Your claims are all baseless, your version of history & facts twisted, and you are avoiding answering questions because the facts that you will face will prove you wrong. Hamurabi? hehehe..nice joke!
The social disease are a fact Rock, but your version of history is questionable. Once you realize this, then there will be grounds for us to discuss.
Andrew, I'll not answer your questions about my opinions in other religions. You have to do your homework & go back to read my previous posts.
Gypsy, if you think anal sex is doing no harm, you are failing to see the serious problems in "1st world" societies! Lots of harm my dear.
As for your definition of 3rd & 1st world countries, and although I have my coservations (which makes me 3rd world) on that definition, but can you tell me which European country is 3rd world? Are Turkey, Brazil, Argentina, Jamaica, Ukrine, South Africa, Fillipenes, Singapore 3rd world countries?
What limits of conservetioness/openess will define 3rd world mentalities? Is giving birth out of wedlock conservative or open? Is refusing anal sex coservative or open? Is marrying a cousin conservative or open? Is saving the virginity to the man in a woman's life conservation or open? Is refusing to commit adultry conservative or open? Is refusing to be involved in swinging & 3somes conservative or open? Is refusing sex with animals conservative or open?
"Be strong but not arrogant
Be modest but not weak"
S.H
Gosh Mrs... so awful to see you lower yourself to my heinous levels...
'homosexuality, and you, are a disease'
you are way too easy to wind up... its not fun any more....
I am going to the sweety shop...
:)
Don't be the typical stupid that you are. You don't need to make personal attacks if you have no logic to discuss issues.
Go read my previous posts before making stupid assumptions. Who said their are no homosexuals in Qatar. But that does not change the fact that homosexuality, and you, are a disease.
"Be strong but not arrogant
Be modest but not weak"
S.H
OK GUYS!!!! Really we are all going to get in big trouble by Q-Tel if we start discussing Anal sex. So Please Please Please let's move away from this subject! I don't want Qatari to get mad at me!
SkdKak, Mrs. profile says female, so I guess she's female, if she isn't that's her business not mine, makes no difference to how I treat her or discuss things with her. ;)
"You don't have to like me for who I am but we'll see what you're made of by what you make of me." Ani Difranco
I think I must be getting too old, I always thought that "Making Love" was about giving rather than receiving. That a woman's body was biologically designed to be penetrated by a male is a physical fact, but for me to make love is more than just about the physical act, surely its about wanting to pleasure the one you love, to enjoy together beautiful emotions and feelings. It is a way to show and share your love, to give, rather than to recieve and here is also the dilema. There are people who sexually enjoy being Analy penertrated and have during such penetration wonderful feelings. When you love someone and wish to make them happy and give them sexual satisfaction, do you ignore there needs, what ever they maybe.
The holy books copied HIS laws...that's right, your precious ten commandements....your so called divine parameters....all man made...and THAT is historical FACT....which you for some reason or another refuse to come to grips with.
As for comparisons, I say again its impossible to compare when:
a) your very definition of social disease is in question and
b) you want to compare countries that have accurate statistics with those that do not.
THAT is why your comparison is not feasible.
Lastly, third world mentalities, not to be confused with physical locations (and I do apologize I should have made THAT clearer...I thought it went without saying, but technically you are correct linguistically at least).... ie backward ones...can be loosely defined as ones that have refused to evolve (hence are backward looking)...example would you your failure to realize that humans (both male and female)are not made to either screw or be screwed....which is why humans have NO MAITING SEASON.
Stay safe.
Perfection does not exist. The question therefore, is: what level of imperfection are we willing to settle for?
I was only enjoying the conv. of all you quys.. Your comment abut man's G-spot is sure gonna give one more topic of discussion and expert comments by.........
BTW its not she... its HE, thatz what I have been informed about the expert.
..**.. ""They walk among us. They vote & they even reproduce"" ..**..
I believe the definition of 3rd world country has to do with it being a pre-industialized nation. It's an old term, from the Cold War, and doesn't really fit anymore, but is still quite commonplace to refer to some Asian, African, South American and even European nations as 3rd world. A 3rd world mentality would be a conservative mentality that hasn't been subjected to the education that came with industrialization. They would be supersitious, fundamentally religious, (usually) illiterate, etc.
As for biological functions of the human body...The fact of the matter is Anal sex can be done, and is practised by both men and women, with no harm to them. Therefore are you sure God didn't intend for us to do it? (Especially since a man's G-Spot is actually located in his anus).
"You don't have to like me for who I am but we'll see what you're made of by what you make of me." Ani Difranco
You are still running away from answering my question about "3rd world countries" (not mentalities) which you have clearly mentioned earlier.
After you define "3rd world countries" we can discuss "3rd world mentalities"!
After you define the "3rd world countries" I will ask you about the parameters that can seperate "3rd world mentalities" & "1st world mentalities". (For example, I believe that any children born out of wedlock are bastards, and anyone who disagree with this, has a "3rd world mentality, and I will not recognize any parameters but the Divine ones).
You are still failing, for a reason or another, to compare between the rate of social diseases in the countries I gave you. This is only because you don't want to face the facts.
You are reading the wrong version of history, dude. Hamurabi had absolutely nothing to do with Holy books.
"Be strong but not arrogant
Be modest but not weak"
S.H
I find Mrs' remark offensive...
she can speak for herself maybe she thinks she was born to be screwed thats fine... a lot of us weren't....
but then I think she speaks a lot of ignorant tripe anyway
i don't have the patience to explain this all as some as you do!
Please no-one tell her that there are gay Qataris and that homosexuality has been here for ever and in history this area was always famed for this......
Oh and if homosexuality were a disease I would have been infected a long long time ago... and I really appreciate members of the opposite gender.
For such violent aggressive uncompromising attitudes one can only ponder over the possibility that the sexuality she fears the most is her own.
anyway I am sure she enjoyed the hangings in Saudi this morning... I hope they televised them for her.
Hmmm I don't know. I think they probably came into existence around the same time. I mean, Native Americans have been practising their particular religions for over 20,000 years. And there are examples of artifacts made by Homo Habilis and Neanderthal that suggest they two practiced a rudimentary religion. I think in simpler times it was a natural to associate the two.
"You don't have to like me for who I am but we'll see what you're made of by what you make of me." Ani Difranco
This is totally off topic but OMG I was so shocked to read all your 'bwahahahas' about the Greek gods. Do you exhibit the same disrepect for other religions that believe in more than one God??? Do you laugh at all religions, or just a few?? Or do you limit your disrespect to just Greek gods?
You may not believe in demi-Gods or whatever, and nor do I, but would it kill you to not be quite so outright intolerant and rude towards polytheistic faiths? Your comments were really quite disgraceful.
Hamurabi's code was the oldest (existing at least) CODIFIED system of rules and laws and morality...but the concept that humans have regulated their interaction with some sort of code (no matter how crude) is older than religion.
Stay safe all.
Perfection does not exist. The question therefore, is: what level of imperfection are we willing to settle for?
Hamurabi's code predates the monotheastic religions, but not religion itself Ragna.
Corne, thank you for correcting me. After I wrote it I realized I was wrong but I was hoping no one would catch me. :P
Mrs. Ok, as long as it was tongue in cheek I'll let it slide. I'm sure as a fellow woman you can see why that attitude would distress me. :)
"You don't have to like me for who I am but we'll see what you're made of by what you make of me." Ani Difranco
MNOST of us have moved beyond the biological drive to prepetuate the species as the "reason we were made"....I guess you have not realized that human have sex for pleasure and not JUST for reproduction....and amazingly enough you can find instances of homosexual mating in animals that engage in this behavious for pleasure too!
I'm still waiting to hear how many other women (religious or not) would back your statement that women were made to be screwed.
Stay safe all.
Perfection does not exist. The question therefore, is: what level of imperfection are we willing to settle for?
Fair enough I SHOULD have included and highlited the word menatlity sooner....I just thought it was evident....but since it is not please allow me to clarify:
A 3rd world mentality refers to a backwards way of thinking and not actual geographic location....You can have a first world passport and still have a 3rd world mentality....just as easily as you can have a first world mentality and live in a third world country....does that help clear up the confusion?
I'm not running away from comparing social diseases....i'm simply questioning what you define as a disease, and pointing out that how conveient for you, the countries you want to compare to have no corroburated statistics!
Lastly....I don't think i'm the only one who thinks Hamurabi's code predates religion....unless you think all of History is a scam in which case we can't prove anything one way or another.
Stay safe.
Perfection does not exist. The question therefore, is: what level of imperfection are we willing to settle for?
Pedophilia is not a genetic thing, homosexuality is under study but suspected to be. There was a study made (I'll find the sources and post them asap) that a range of men were made to smell women's and men's sweat. Results were that straight men prefered the women's sweat over the men's, whereas, the homosexual men prefered the men's sweat over the women's. Ofcourse none of the subjects knew who's sweat they were smelling. It supports the theory that there's something biological about homosexuality that's triggered by the enviroment.
I'm not always right, but I'm never wrong :P - Garfield
"women were made to be screwed" said with a smile :-) was ment to be a joke to a serious biological issue that God has made males to penetrate females. Anal penetration to females (or males) is totally filthy & rejected.
People thinking that it is normal for men to be penetrated, is no different than them believing that men were made to be pregnant. Both are rediculous!
"Be strong but not arrogant
Be modest but not weak"
S.H
"this is the FIRST time in my life I have ever heard a female talk this way....its usually the males who think so, and the males in 3rd world countries to be specific"
You are differentiating between what kind of language males & females use in "3rd world countries". I asked you to define that, and you are not replying, in the same manner that you are running away from comparing rates of social diseases between the countries I gave you.
Let me ask you in another way: if I am from Thailand, are you gonna consider me a "3rd world citizen/mentality"? Would you still consider me a "3rd world citizen/mentality" if I am holding a French passport after living there for many years although my homeland is still Thailand?
I also believe that there is only you in this planet who REALLY believes that Holy books & Divine laws were man made. Even if we can accept this, then all the men in the world who created Holy books have agreed to condemn homosexuality.
"Be strong but not arrogant
Be modest but not weak"
S.H
I won't get into this, cause it's way too much reading and I would probably have way too much to comment so nevermind...but...this caught my eye:
"Timbo, I think it's a recessive gene. Just because you have blue eyes and I have blue eyes doesn't mean we would have a blue eyed child, not if we both carry the dominate gene for brown eyes"
Actually, blue color is a recessive gene, which means both alleles (form of gene, we get one from mom and one from dad) have to be blue to be able to have blue eyes, brown color is a dominant gene, which mean a person can have only one allele for brown and still have brown eyes. Therefore, if both parents have blue eyes (which means both allele code for blue) the child will have blue (or maybe green) but not brown. So if u had infact carried a brown gene...u would have brown eyes not blue. Am I making any sense ? Ask any questions for futher explanation :-)
I'm not always right, but I'm never wrong :P - Garfield
The idea that women are meant to be screwed is the reason there are so many rapes in this world. Not because we are drifting from God. It's a very dangerous attitude to have.
"You don't have to like me for who I am but we'll see what you're made of by what you make of me." Ani Difranco
And usually (about 99% of the time) male....i'd love to hear other female members of Ql (even Religious ones) back you up on your statement that women were made to be screwed!
Convenient that your claim of liberal values eroding society cannot be back up because ALL the countries you claim are pure do not accurately keep accurate and authentic (read corroburated) statistics....and as for morality predating religion, wether you laugh or not, is still an established fact.
Lastly, regarding Salax's argument that the human brain cannot dictate morality because it needs a "guide"....his insistence on using religion's morality (again which is man made by human brains) is circular and disporves his theory entirely....too bad he is incapable of articluating his thoughts without resorting to statements "like you guys are racist fuckers chill"....I guess that only reinforces that not only did we evolve from a more primitive state...but some of us haven't even finished evolving yet.
Stay safe all.
Perfection does not exist. The question therefore, is: what level of imperfection are we willing to settle for?
K guys. Not to be the party pooper but this thread has really really drifted from what I wanted to talk about, which is whether or not more research should be done on pedophilia.
Not that I can't argue about homosexuals and God all day, but I really see this just devolving into insults. So how's about we say live and let live eh? No hard feelings.
"You don't have to like me for who I am but we'll see what you're made of by what you make of me." Ani Difranco
[img_assist|nid=45352|title=|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=|height=0]
Will you consider me from a 2nd or 1st world country if I tell you that I have been living in the "west" & have a "western" passport?
President of Iran said: "we dont have gays LIKE YOU"
You have to understand what "LIKE YOU" means before you judge him.
You trying not to face facts. I wasn't asking if it is better to be religious (of course it is better), and I wasnt limiting your options to Vatican. I told you to go & check the percentages so that you will realize what damages homosexuality can cause to a nation. You did not want to face that.
Your theory about Hamurabi & religions is a very funny one.
You asked if I give the same courtesy to others. You need to read my last reply to Timbo & u'll understand
"Be strong but not arrogant
Be modest but not weak"
S.H
The fact is we live in a an overpopulated world where we are not in need to propegate the species anymore. So while it is women who get pregnant, some women may wish not to have children all together...they are not wasting their life because they were made to be screwed as you put it....that is a caveman's mentality...btw are you sure you are female? do not be ofended, I only ask because this is the FIRST time in my life I have ever heard a female talk this way....its usually the males who think so, and the males in 3rd world countries to be specific.
And the Middle East not reporting is the real avoidance of fact here....its like The Iranian presiden't response of we have no gays in Iran...talk about buring your heads in the sand.
The Vatican has more instances of shelling out money to quiet victims of its priests abusing choir boys than we can count....so no, its not better to be religious than liberal!
And you can recognize and/or believe in any laws you choose....the facts are that religious laws (of the 3 major Abrahamic religions anyways), which are based on the ten commandment are taken from Hamurabi's code...which IS man made...that's undisputable.
But it doesn't matter so much what you want to believe in, you have the right to choose....but the real question is: will you give that same courtesy to others?
I gotta be getting home folks....I would love to continue this discussion tomorrow...and i'll try and catch up if you guys keep going...have a good night all.
Stay safe.
Perfection does not exist. The question therefore, is: what level of imperfection are we willing to settle for?
You need to count the number of "holes" (female) and "pins" (male) to know who was made to do what. See? drifting away from religion has even destroyed logic & biology. If you still disagree with me, we can go back to any religion or any holy book to see what they say about who screws who. I will not recognize any other civil/man-made law.
I hope you do not think that males are made to get pregnant!
I think that claiming that manama does not report, is just means of not wanting to face the facts.
OK forget Manama, take Tunisia, take Brunai, take Vatican
"Be strong but not arrogant
Be modest but not weak"
S.H
I respct many religions & I know we share the same God with them although HE might come in different names. I don't love "MY GOD" only. I also have so much respects to various beliefs although we have no common God.
I also give the right to people like gypsy & Rock to deny or believe what ever they want!
At the same time I find it relaxing to laugh at other gods! Zeus & his 'sub-gods' is one of them! That's me!
"Be strong but not arrogant
Be modest but not weak"
S.H
WHO says women are made to be screwed?
And sure for some dad is second to god....but for others mom is second to god...and for some more still mom and dad come before god (if they don't believe in god for instance)...what is your point? How is seing oe parent screwed better than another? your point makes no sense whatsoever.
As for comparing Manama to Amsterdam....we can do that when the middle east starts reporting accurately their crime rates and diseases rates, and everything esle....until then we simply do not know...Manama MAY be lower, but then again it may not.
Stay safe all.
Perfection does not exist. The question therefore, is: what level of imperfection are we willing to settle for?
I did not say free, I said ALMOST!
Yes of course homosexuals are in every nation.
Rock, nothing wrong in a child seeing his mom getting screwed. Women are made to be screwed...hehehe
Now we come to "ALMOST"
Let's take a city like Amesterdam or New York & compare it Manama (Bahrain) for example. Go & find the percentages of AIDS, rape, illegitimate children, drugs, abortion, crime (murder)...etc between Manama & Amesterdam or New York
Rock, for some people the father is second to God. An idol, an example to follow, a source of knowlege, values, love...etc. Do you know the effects on a kid of he knows or sees this father being screwed? Do you know now why some countries suffer from social diseases while it is a minor problem in other countries?
"Be strong but not arrogant
Be modest but not weak"
S.H
Why Mrs? What makes your God anymore real than the greek gods excepting the fact that you have been lectured and taught about yours since birth?
There is really no more to it except your social indoctrination. I have looked at the "evidence" and find the existence of any God as unlikely as the next. They are all just stories, I just wish people would stop taking them so seriously.
You quote a small sample out of context....until ALL religions agree on ALL the issues of morality they cannot be referenced as a base.
A child growing up in homosexual households will not be "warped" any more by seing his dad screwed as you so aptly put it, than he or she would be seing his mom screwed in a heterosexual household.
And your argument that religious societies are free from such social "diseases" is not proven....you cannot seriously believe that religious societies don't have gays can you? They are everywhere...it only appears like the liberal west has more because they are not hiding.
Your case that god is the judge again ignores the fact that gods rules are all man made.
Better update the "rules" or we are headed to yet more bloodshed and wars....we do not all share the same religious views....the world is getting smaller (figuratively speaking)...and almost all societies (except the most insular) are headed toward multiethnic, cultural, religious, and racial makeups....we better find a way to get along or there will be trouble (more so than inthe past that is).
Stay safe.
Perfection does not exist. The question therefore, is: what level of imperfection are we willing to settle for?
God forbid. I swear I mean no disrespect..
it is just that I can't help it when I read words like GODS & SUB-GODS
:-)
"Be strong but not arrogant
Be modest but not weak"
S.H
Sorry what evidence have you got Mrs that religious communities are free of such "diseases"? There is none. Only thing is most of your religious communities deny it exists.
There is also absolutely no evidence that children brought up in homosexual familes are damaged in any way. if there was then gay couples would not be allowed to adopt children in the west and they are.
You have no ideay about the damage that homosexuality cause to a society. Can you imagine how mentally & psychologically sick a child will grow when he learns or sees his father being screwed? The father image?
Can you realize the amount of social diseases that such sick kids will bring to the society when they grow up? Can you realize why some religious communities are almost free of such diseases? Can you see the difference between the life style in the country side & that in big cities in Europe?
As I said, I am not discussing our different points of view. I am interested in knowing the element/factor that will judge between us (if not God). You said that even religions disagree. I asked you about the disagreement about homosexuality. You said they all agree. I rest my case.
"Be strong but not arrogant
Be modest but not weak"
S.H
why do you keep on doing that bbbbbbwwwwaaahhh thing mrs? Are you laughing at my poor knowledge of ancient greek history or about the prospect of there being sub gods? If the latter then why is a king of the gods called zeus and a range of different gods of varying powers and abilites any less likely than one almighty god?
To me both ideas sounds ridiculous although if I had to choose I think I'd go with the greek way. Then I could pick my favourite god like a football team and have a little shrine to him
But to declare certain topics off limits arbitralily on a public forum is not acceptable...and yes that includes the holocaust and anything else.
Stay safe all.
Perfection does not exist. The question therefore, is: what level of imperfection are we willing to settle for?
Mrs, I'll I'm saying is that you can discuss it if you want to. The thing is that it's a very sensitive topic, so unfortunatly it will more then likely devolve into personal insults before long and Qatari will have to close it.
"You don't have to like me for who I am but we'll see what you're made of by what you make of me." Ani Difranco
"Be strong but not arrogant
Be modest but not weak"
S.H
I don't think the humanity has any special favours. I don't think whatever it is that I feel exists is senitient (spelling)or really cares about any of us, human or animal, I just think there's more.
"You don't have to like me for who I am but we'll see what you're made of by what you make of me." Ani Difranco
Just because the major religions agree on gays doesn't mean they are right....they also agree on the subjugation of women and are wrong there too...like I said we need a better framework for morality....gays, as long as it is 2 consenting adults in their own privacy hurt no one....just because religion wants to ban them doesn't mean we should....again the framework should be to let people choose what suits them as long as they are not hurting anyone....your point about how narrow minded and discriminatory religions are only helps reinforce and strengthen the argument that we cannot use them as a guide.
Stay safe all.
Perfection does not exist. The question therefore, is: what level of imperfection are we willing to settle for?
I am not dying to discuss the casualties of war in Germany in WW2. My point was to make clear to Rock that either people are allowed to talk about anything (casualties of WW2 included) or they should respect the values of other people (example Prophet Mohammed)
I am making it clear here: the bashing on the beliefs of some party, will lead to bashing on the beliefs of the other party. This is NOT Denmark.
No disrespect meant.
"Be strong but not arrogant
Be modest but not weak"
S.H
Don't sound so hurt Gypo I only called you a chicken. It would be a nice thought that it wasn't all for nothing and it may well turn out to be the case but I certainly don't feel that human kind is worthy of any special treatment. Think it nothing more than a quirk of biology that we have attained self recognition (and from that stems all religion).
So, and it galls me that I can never be proven correct, I'm afraid it is an enternity of blackness for us all. Best enjoy it while you're here
what's wrong with that Mrs? Think you're confused. Zeus was the greek king of the Gods. Therefore he had lots of sub gods who reported to him (poseidon etc etc). these are his gods (and for the most part Zeus was a man - occasionally some randy animal but mostly a man)
HIS GODS, Timbo?
HIS GODS???
Bbwwaaaaaahhhhhh! Nice one Timbo
"Be strong but not arrogant
Be modest but not weak"
S.H
Sorry Timbo, call me what you will but I just can't believe that all of this is from nothing, just some big bang. I don't actually care if there is anything after, it will be interesting to see. If I had to choose an afterlife I think I'd go with reincarnation though.
"You don't have to like me for who I am but we'll see what you're made of by what you make of me." Ani Difranco
If you want to discuss it Mrs. Go ahead and start a thread. I for one will put in my two cents worth. But lets not get really really off topic with this one. We've already gone from pedophilia and researching it to God and Homosexuality. I don't know if it can handle the holocaust! LOL.
"You don't have to like me for who I am but we'll see what you're made of by what you make of me." Ani Difranco
Gypsy you chicken. You so don't actually believe in it. You just hope it's true so it isn't all over when its over.
"religions all agree about gays"
This means that religion/God helped us in AT LEAST one issue, and was a perfect judge between our differences when it comes to homosexuality.
Good! Now we can manage to put the 1st law in our Republic of Virtue
"Be strong but not arrogant
Be modest but not weak"
S.H
Mrs. I believe in God, and I believe that when I DIE it will be the one to decide if I've lived a good life. I don't follow the Holy texts because I don't consider them to be the voice of God, but at the same time I believe that there is something bigger then us all. However I believe it is the only one who truly can judge us, it's not our place as fellow human beings to judge one another, only to live the best life we can, and not hurt anyone else.
"You don't have to like me for who I am but we'll see what you're made of by what you make of me." Ani Difranco
Mrs ancient greek religion praised and accepted it. I consider Zeus and his gods just as valid a god as yours so there you go
"Be strong but not arrogant
Be modest but not weak"
S.H
I personally think you DO have the right to talk about WWII and ANY other topic you want...especially in a public forum!
As for god being the judge, well its hard to make that argument since not everyone believes in god anyway....and maybe religions all agree about gays but they don't agree about everything, so we need a better framework is all i'm saying...otherwise how can we make our unified set of rules when we each have different books we want to refrence?
Therefore if the criteria were something more universal, like the good of society and its memebers rights, we might have a better chance of coming to an agreement than god's laws don't you think?
Stay safe all.
Perfection does not exist. The question therefore, is: what level of imperfection are we willing to settle for?
I know how recessive genes work and that has been studied too and although no "gay gene" has been identified you would still expect families with gay members on both sides (i.e. brothers and sisters) to be more likely to produce gay offspring. Obviously the difficulty arises with all behavioural genes is that you have to isolate nurture and it is likely that a family with gay relatives is more likely to be more liberal and therefore more likely that a new gay family member would be prepared to out him/herself.
Not easy.
From an evolutionary stand point it is worth considering how a gay gene could be propogated. Remember species evolution doesn't work. What could be the advantage to a group of genes (i.e. a human) to hold the gay gene? Nothing I would suggest so it must be a side affect of another if it is in fact genetic at all.
You only gave me (wrong) opinions about social diseases (homosexuality included) that determine the outlines of non religious communities.
I know that we disagree and I was asking about the thing that will be a judge between us (if not God).
"Be strong but not arrogant
Be modest but not weak"
S.H
Mrs. the Haolocaust has been discussed many times.
"You don't have to like me for who I am but we'll see what you're made of by what you make of me." Ani Difranco
Hi All, very interesting subject and as always a "lively" discussion. One thing I was happy to notice is that everybody has the common disgust and revoltion when it comes to the Sexual Abuse of Children.
One thing we must not forget, these people are all over the world, just because some cultures do not mention it openly does not mean it doesnt exist in their culture and country.
The only way we can try to stop these people is to understand why they do it, the reasons may vary in some cultures and they reasons maybe difficult for some people to face and accept. The first thing is accept they exist within a culture, then find the reasons why and then work out methods to eradicate it.
Children are a gift to us all, there innocence a joy, please dont let your religious beliefs blind you to to the problem within your own culture.
Remember, "Clean your own house before you clean someone else's"
We humans are social animals and we have always strived to regulate our interaction....our societies' shapes have evolved over time from family structures, to clan based, to tribal, to villages, then city states, then countries etc...So have our beliefs...but no matter when you look at humans, they have ALWAYS been social, and they have always regulated their interaction and had some sort of order to their societies (granted much cruder in the past but still they were there).
We CAN do what is best for the society as a whole and defend each member of society's rights without bringing religion into it...in fact it would be better since we as humans do not all share the same religion...in other words we need ONE set of norms to define our morality...where do we get it from?
But honestly guys all this is being discussed in another thread....i'm retyping the same stuff from one thread to another...if you are interested in this discussion I humbly invite you to Shuaibkazi's thread "THE REASON".
Stay safe all.
Perfection does not exist. The question therefore, is: what level of imperfection are we willing to settle for?
Salax asked everyone not to involve Prophet Mohammed in this, and you responded by:
"YOU can exclude what you like Salax... ...
Whereas "I" (I don't want to speak for others) CAN discuss anything and anyone I want to....I just don't because i'm not informed enough about the subject....but please leave your closeminded and restrictive requests to those who are happy to remnain obedient WITHOUT questions such as yourself.
Please consider your request studied and DENIED! I'm not trying to be rude, but I am fed up with people telling me what I can and cannot discuss. Just as I cannot tell you what to discuss, you cannot tell me what not to discuss...please realize that respect is a 2 way street, and you are disrespecting ME when you want to make certain topics off limits to me....this is a public forum, and no one is forcing you to participate"
My question:
Are you 100% sure that we are allowed to discuss ANYTHING here on QL? If "yes" then I'd want to discuss some 'sensetive' issues about WW2, if "No", then you should repect the request of Salax.
As for the rest of the things you mentioned, and whether homosexuals are as filthy as pedophiles, or not, well this is exactly my question; we both have brains, yet we both believe totally different. If not religion/God, who will be the judge between us? Man-made laws?
(BTW, can you tell me in which religion/holy book, homosexuals were praised & accepted?)
"Be strong but not arrogant
Be modest but not weak"
S.H
Timbo, I think it's a recessive gene. Just because you have blue eyes and I have blue eyes doesn't mean we would have a blue eyed child, not if we both carry the dominate gene for brown eyes.
"You don't have to like me for who I am but we'll see what you're made of by what you make of me." Ani Difranco
Woah Mrs! ummm where to start (Just a suggestion for the future, can you please please address me in point form when you do long posts like these, it would really help me to answer you better. :) )
Ok
1) No I don't suggest chaining them up and letting naked kids walk around them. Frankly I don't think that would actually achieve anything. But having them talk to a psychologist, psychiatrist, brain scans, etc (I'm not a psychologist so That's all I can suggest at the moment :D). But surely it would make more sense to do research, rather then just outright torture them like WE want to. IF we know what causes it we might beable to prevent it.
2) People drifting away from God causes social diseases. You list social disease as: homosexuality, legalized marriages of gays, rape, illegitimate children, rape, drugs, adultery, addiction, excess of abortion, crime, AIDS.
First of all, science (and myself)very much believes that homosexuality is not a disease and rather is genetic, therefore these people can't help it. Secondly, I don't see how homosexuality hurts anyone. It's an act between two consenting adults, we aren't forced to watch it and we aren't forced to do it if we don't want to.
Second, Since they are as capable as heterosexuals of falling in love, why shouldn't they be allowed to make the same commitment? Once again, it doesn't hurt anyone.
Thirdly, I do not promote adultry in any way, shape, or form, HOWEVER I do not believe it deserves physical punishment either. Adultry is a sign of a problem in the marriage, and usually means the marriage should end. It can also occur during highly emotional circumstances. It's never a nice thing, and usually hurts everyone involved. But it's not really the business of anyone outside the relationship. I don't believe it has anything to do with drifting away from God, since in the past men were more inclined to have mistresses and it was the general way of life. If anything, we are LESS likely to commit adultry now then we were 100 years ago. Simply cause it's more of a taboo now.
Rape, Drugs, Addiction and Crime are the result of poverty NOT falling away from God. There were theifs and rapists in Mohammed's time too, and it's worse in places with high levels of poverty. (Actually the poorer the community, the more religious they tend to be).
Abortion. I personally would never choose abortion for myself, However I can never ever put myself in another woman's shoes enough to not give her the same right to choose. I've known girls who attempted suicide rather then have their child. I can't make that decision for anyone, I'm sorry.
AIDS, is a result of lack of education and stupidity, not drifting from God. During the early 90's in the heyday of educational programs to combat AIDS, the AIDS rates in the West dropped to almost nothing. They have only started to increase again since the education campaigns have stopped.
Ok, I think I've answered everything. My conclusion is this:
Yes, you are RIGHT and so is Hussamf, that a strong belief in God and Faith would help to diminish these problems (not homosexuality, that would still exist, they would just choose, becaue of their faith, not to act on it). However, Strong Liberal Morals and Values in general and proper Education would also solve these problems (homosexuality to liberals, not being a disease but a legitimate sexual orientation).
The difference, I think, is you will never ever beable to get everyone to believe in the same religion or God. However you may someday beable to convince people to live and let live.
"You don't have to like me for who I am but we'll see what you're made of by what you make of me." Ani Difranco
Inate population control it ain't. That just doesn't work from an evolutionary theory standpoint. Although it might sometimes seem to be the case we are very much individuals and the species does not act for its own "good". Species level theories just don't work.
It is also not genetic I don't think (please correct me if I'm wrong as I haven't bothered to check) but am I more likely to have gay offspring I am gay? I don't think this has been proven.
So what does this leave? It can still be nature rather than nuture and environment. Firstly I think you need to label gay clearly, a lot of our modern feelings are suppressed by culture (just look abobe) and western culture only recently liberated. Ancient greek men felt the only way to love and equal was to love another man because women were not considered enlightened.
Perhaps then it is nothing more than a standard distribution curve of gayness and non gayness. Defined by our reaction to the various sexual chemicals travelling around are body. The peak of the curve being the "norm" which constitutes most people who are mostly straight with increasing levels of gay in one direction and straight in another? That would explain many people who are bi or occasionally confused.
When viewed as shades of gray rather than black and white the nature argument is clearer I think. It becomes less "abnormal" for homosexual activity to be natural.
Mrs said,
"People should have a moral limits/barrier against ugly & twisted behavior"
They say they have morals only that they are different from... say for example mine.
But Ragnarock if you dont believe in any religion then what criteria do you use to diffentiate right from wrong?
Again you equate no god with no morality and no limits.
The fact is that morality predates God....its all man made....god does not tell you what is and is not acceptable....the human brain does...and even IF I agreed with you and said ok lets learn right and wrong from religion....which religion? what is ok in some is outlawed in others....since the whole world does not share ONE religious belief, you cannot get everyone to agree to ONE set of religious rules....it is arrogance to think you can impose your views on others, not to mention wrong!
Btw, all these points have been discussed in various others threads which are still ongoing now if you care to join us =)
Freedom does not mean you can harm children....the limits are where other people's rights begin....you cannot equate pedophiles to gays....just as you cannot equate prostitution to rape....why is it always "all or nothing" with believers....trust me, without your god we would not decend into anarchy and revert to animals, but in fact prgress and end bigotry, closemindedness, and discrimination.
Stay safe all.
Perfection does not exist. The question therefore, is: what level of imperfection are we willing to settle for?
What are you suggesting, Gypsy? Hold them in chains while we let naked young kids walk in front of them? :-)
I think that Hussamf was superb & was the best person who addressed the issue.
People should have a moral limits/barrier against ugly & twisted behavior. This USUALLY comes from your faith in religion. Once you have no moral limits/barrier, you have no shame in doing anything. Once you have no shame against theft, you would normally steal.
I have always emphasized here that the more people drift away from God, the more the community suffers from social diseases such as homosexuality, legalized marriages of gays, rape, illegitimate children, rape, drugs, adultery, addiction, excess of abortion, crime, AIDS…etc. And this pedophilia is just another addition to that list of social diseases.
But why do you want to fight this pedophilia ONLY, Gypsy?
If not God, then who will draw the lines/limits for us to judge wrong from right?
You don’t believe in God but who is preventing you from marrying a cousin? Why do other people find that thing very normal? Why is it normal for some tribes in Africa or Latin America to eat human flesh?
If you & me were to buy an island to establish our own “Republic of Virtue” where we would both put the laws & the constitution of this republic, how can we decide:
Pedophiles, homosexuals, adulteresses are filthy people who should be treated/punished?
You’d say that when husbands & wives decide to cheat, we should not interfere, and I’d wonder then, why would you want to interfere with pedophiles if you had no morals when it comes to adultery?
You’d say: “but those victims in pedophilia are helpless children”, and I’d say: “but you support abortion. The victims are helpless souls, too!!!”
Then we would disagree again when you would want to legalize illegitimate children whom, in my opinion, would mostly be abandoned by their parents, thrown to the streets & orphanages, be the victims of pedophilia & might get aids, grow up to be psychologically disturbed, and end up being a homosexual.
etc…etc…etc…who would draw the lines for us in order that we can succeed in providing a REAL & EFFECTIVE cure to these social diseases?
Rock, you said:
“I am fed up with people telling me what I can and cannot discuss. Just as I cannot tell you what to discuss, you cannot tell me what not to discuss...”
Are you 100% sure that we can discuss anything? ANYTHING? No limits AT ALL?
"Be strong but not arrogant
Be modest but not weak"
S.H
ROFL!! There you go Salax. Sometimes it's great to think outside the box eh ;)
"You don't have to like me for who I am but we'll see what you're made of by what you make of me." Ani Difranco
Hey dude...take it easy on that OOOOOPPPPSSSSS man...you are screwing the page...dude...do you mind editting that and putting your exclamation in the comment part of your post rather than the Subject part...
Cheers...
----------------------------------------------
" Live Life To The Fullest ! Enjoy Yourself "
ROFL. NO it isn't me! It's actually a picture of a little gypsy girl (of about 10 or 11) :P But it's ok, the picture is small, I won't blame you for not seeing how old she was!
Also Salax, you don't have to stand them, you don't have to like what they do. There's not a straight man I know that doesn't think the act is disgusting (which is a perfectly natural reaction! I would be worried if they weren't disgusted by it) THe thing you (and many others) have to realize is that they can't help it, they didn't choose it, and as long as they aren't hurting you they should be able to live their lives as they choose. Don't they have as much right to love as any of us?
"You don't have to like me for who I am but we'll see what you're made of by what you make of me." Ani Difranco
Salax, Science is very very much leaning towards Homosexuality being a natural human condition for some people, like blue eyes, or red hair, it's rare (11% of any population) but it's completely natural. It's seen in most spieces in the animal kingdom as well, and for those spieces where it hasn't been witnessed they have what are called "rogues" males and females who never mate and never appear to want to.
As I've said I think it's an inate form of population control.
As for pedophilia, I can't imagine a biological reason, or natural reason for this. It would seem that harming children goes against what's good for the spieces.
Sorry if I was harsh to you Salax, I really really can't stand homophobia.
"You don't have to like me for who I am but we'll see what you're made of by what you make of me." Ani Difranco
IF it is "spiritually" wrong (and that is debatable since the religion's morality are all based on a man made code of laws called Hamurabi's code, and therefore still fallable)...then let "god" punish them later....what I am concerned with in life is the question of do they have the same rights as everyone else, or can we discriminate against them?
I realize we have different defenitions of morality, but that is the issue...since the whole world doesn't have ONE defining set, we have to work out a way to all get along.
While not advocating homosexuality...I nevertheless have to speak up against discrimination on THAT (or indeed ANY other) basis....forget discrimination, there are those who want to KILL them.
Stay safe.
Perfection does not exist. The question therefore, is: what level of imperfection are we willing to settle for?
Ragnarock if two consenting individuals do something in the privacy of their homes it is none of my business .
What becomes my concern is when they announce it in public and promote is as .."cool" etc .Since i;m also part of the public it affects me or my family .
I have to agree that we have very different viewpoints of what is right morally and what is wrong .
Also , for me as fallible human beings we do somethings which we believe are morally incorrect.This is human weakness but it doesn't make that action acceptable .
If I do make mistakes which as a human I'm bound to then I have the hope I'm going back to a Most Forgiving God.=)
Its all about encouraging the good & healthy in soceity and discouraging the unhealthy .
But like I said we have differing criteria as to what is good and healthy. Sooo ....salam
'MY opinion research should be best conducted for fruitful purposes' said salax
- research is done to help us understand and inform and thus improve our life.
So if research helps us understand and inform us why people are peados then we can work towards them committing the act...
that is a fruitful purpose for the victims.
I'm not saying you cannot be revolted by the act (I'm not an advocate FOR it myself...being straigh, and maried and have a beautiful daughter)...but what i'm saying is that if it is between 2 consenting adults who are harming no one, and want to do it in the privacy of their own home....how can you judge THEM?
I am revolted by honey...can't stand the stuff...I think it is vile and makes me gag....but I cannot in all good conciency disallow it for all others...what if others like it?
That's all i'm saying...its about choice in that regard....leave it up to people to make up thier OWN minds.
Stay safe all.
Perfection does not exist. The question therefore, is: what level of imperfection are we willing to settle for?
He doesn't relate it to an illness at all, it's not something that can be cured. You can teach people how to learn to live with Autism, not cure them, or even make a change in them.
"You don't have to like me for who I am but we'll see what you're made of by what you make of me." Ani Difranco
Perhaps you guys grew up in an environment where it is acceptable for a man to do things to another man which for me should be done to a woman .
It is *the act* which is kinda revolting to my senses not the persons involoved per se.
Andrew interesting how you compare it to an *ILLNESS* saying no one chooses to be born autistic .So is this an illness too for which medical and professional help should be sought ?
Very interesting the difference between normal and natural....
Good morning Frog...maybe homosexuals destroy your concept of "family"....but isn't the very definition of "family" a relative thing?
I mean: In some parts of the world a family is father, mother and children period!....in others it father, 4 mothers, and children....others still it may be a single parent family...etc etc...
So unless you want to pigeonhole and write in stone what "family" is and disallow all others, then your argument doesn't hold much water.
And please...before you go and quote me a holy book's definition of what a family "should" be...realize that there is no agreed upon holy book that the WHOLE world follows....so what works for some may not work for others....this is where the choice I was talking about earlier comes into it!
Stay safe all.
Perfection does not exist. The question therefore, is: what level of imperfection are we willing to settle for?
Thank you Andrew.
Actually Frog, I was reading some things online about the "family" situation in Canada since the institution of gay marriage, and actually divorces are down and marriages are up. Heterosexuals in Canada have a newfound belief in the importance of marriage, because Homosexuals actually fought to be allowed the right to marry.
"You don't have to like me for who I am but we'll see what you're made of by what you make of me." Ani Difranco
Choice? Does anyone seriously think that homosexuals choose to be gay? That they would honestly choose to live a life of oppresion where they are despised by people like Salax?
Regardless of what you may think about the rights and wrongs of homosexuality, logic would clearly reveal that it isn't a choice. It would be like saying that people chose to suffer from autism, for instance. No one would choose to live a life where they are denied equal legal rights, denied the opportunity to love without hesitation, or be excluded from so many social, religious and political organisations.
I don't know what causes it (nature/nuture etc) but it can't possibly be a free choice.
I also agree that it isn't "normal", in the sense that it only occurs in a small proportion of people. And by that reasoning, cancer isn't "normal", blue eyes aren't "normal" and left handed people aren't "normal". But what they are is NATURAL. It is part of nature, it always will be.
Good morning all,
Ragnarock :) I never said that . I know it's all about choice, but sometimes some choices can destroy "family".
Some are Wise ... Some are ...Otherwise
Do you think if homosexuality was "normalized" everyone would become gay?
Its about choice is it not?
Amyways just curious what you think.
Stay safe all.
Perfection does not exist. The question therefore, is: what level of imperfection are we willing to settle for?
But there is no way that everyone will be homosexual. Only an estimated 11 % of the population is or ever will be. If it's biological, then it's like the gene for blue eyes, only a certain amount of the population will ever have it. Which is why it makes sense to me as population control.
"You don't have to like me for who I am but we'll see what you're made of by what you make of me." Ani Difranco
LOl . Gypsy now you really made me laugh hahahahah . You're ( no offense) really short-sighted . What will be the world like without children ? After all of us die , who will live on that earth ?
Once again, I don't despise homosexuals,and I can even have friends among them, but I would never consider it as "normal" ---> Neither biologically nor psychologically :)
gd nite :)
Some are Wise ... Some are ...Otherwise
We don't need anymore people having children! There are over 6 billion people in the world as it is, we need people to have less children! I've always looked at homosexuality as genetic birth control.
"You don't have to like me for who I am but we'll see what you're made of by what you make of me." Ani Difranco
It does . Do Homosexuals have children ( their own ) ??? Imagine a world made of homosexuals ? Would they adopt monkeys ???
Gypsy , just expect me coming tomorrow with much stronger arguments. be ready you stubborn girl :D
to be continued...
Some are Wise ... Some are ...Otherwise
Sorry I don't see how homosexuality hurts families. :S
"You don't have to like me for who I am but we'll see what you're made of by what you make of me." Ani Difranco
What you're trying to do is a sorta false amalgam :) I will not talk about homosexuality while dealing with pedophilia. That could be a first step towards treating both the same way .
If Pedophilia hurts children, then Homosexuality hurts family:)..........
anyway, Pedophilia and homosexuality .... too much for one day. I'm off soon :) have a nice day all.
-----------> Gypsy your posts are good exercises for me to get my tolerance scale higher, but our opinions are probably thousand miles away from each others:)
Some are Wise ... Some are ...Otherwise
I can't see it being legitimized, as it does hurt children. Also for me, a sure sign that it's isn't biological is that (to my knowledge) pedophilia isn't found in the animal kingdom, unlike homosexuality.
"You don't have to like me for who I am but we'll see what you're made of by what you make of me." Ani Difranco
Gypsy , I totally agree... with your last comment : We need to know the WHY . I just hope this would not be a beggining of an ultimate "legitimization" of such a horrible act. I believe once we're parents we could never imagine such a thing happening. I have no children yet ( not even a wife), but I imagine how hard for a parent to see his / her child abused ..... ( makes me almost sick and sad)
Some are Wise ... Some are ...Otherwise
Thank you Frog for actually reading the article! I have a hard time believing that pedophilia is biological as well, especially since many pedophiles were abused themselves as children. However, I think despite what we may find out, we really need to discover why it happens!
"You don't have to like me for who I am but we'll see what you're made of by what you make of me." Ani Difranco
Well, I know the thread was started yesterdya, and I'm a bit too late now posting. However, I couldn't help it. I start to know Gypsy's threads now: always "borde-line" :)
after I finish reading the article I feel shocked, perplexed and sorta angry too, but I would not rush into making conclusions and disabling my analysis tool : a critical mind.
I prefer to comment on some quotations from the article.
1- "They hope the research will convince the general public of what scientists have long understood: Pedophilia is a matter of biology, not personal choice."
I Don't think any research would be able to convince people of such a hypothesis, and I believe firmly that such a sexual deviation is phsycological rather than biological.
2- when someone craves sex with a 6-year-old. There almost needs to be something different in terms of biology when someone has such different thinking."
Not necessarily ??? This is said in a way to convince us and makes us taking it for granted. No way.
3- "Now public interest groups like Human Rights Watch suggest the laws are counterproductive because they push pedophiles underground. Already on the run, many past offenders abuse again."
I do agree with that, and I hope there will be other solutions for such a complicated issue. Pushing pedophiles underground is the worst that could be proposed.
Btw Gypsy , I don't think they say what you understood :
Article :
"They hope the research will convince the general public of what scientists have long understood: Pedophilia is a matter of biology, not personal choice."
Your say :"But they are saying in this article that they are afraid to do research on the subject because they think it will lead to the same conclusion as homosexuality, ..."
............. to be continued ( I'm reading that article again and again , though I'm filling sick because of kinda subject they're treating...)
Some are Wise ... Some are ...Otherwise
Salax we get it, you hate homosexuals, run back under your rock now and stew in your ignorance please and leave the rest of us to discuss this like civilized intelligent human beings.
"You don't have to like me for who I am but we'll see what you're made of by what you make of me." Ani Difranco
Very true PM. What I've read suggests that it was not allowed for a girl who hadn't hit puberty to consummate a marriage in the culture at that time. So it's really unlikely that she was 9 unless she matured early.
"You don't have to like me for who I am but we'll see what you're made of by what you make of me." Ani Difranco
From what little I know of it (having made this post because there's an unfortunate lack of research done) it isn't anymore widespread, just better publisized.
"You don't have to like me for who I am but we'll see what you're made of by what you make of me." Ani Difranco
mmmmmm
good point...
i have no statistics , but i dont think it was as wide spread as it is today..
i honestlly dont know:)
http://hasous.spaces.live.com
"missiles, warships and nuclear weapons cannot establish security. Instead they destroy what peace and security build." Anwar Sadat
But we've had a society like that for hundreds of years, and there were still pedophiles. Long before there was Beyonce and TV, etc.
"You don't have to like me for who I am but we'll see what you're made of by what you make of me." Ani Difranco
very true gypsy..
However, Whilst we cant force someone to have true faith, we can set a conducive environment to that end.
the environment we are now supporting ( in my openion ), is one that gives room for decedance , not for spiritual growth..
for a humerous example, i dont know of any man on the face of the planet ( and many lesbian women 2 hehe ), who wouldnt wanna see a gorgeous creature like Byonce for example nacked or semi naked..
Its just pleasent to the eyes, and it tickeles an increadible amount of fancy..
The problem with the world today, is that Byonce is encouraged 2 take her cloths off, and so is everyone who is sexy and therfore SEX ( and sex appeal ) IS bieng sold as any other commodity..
when that is the case, off course so many ppl are going to loose track..there is simply 2 much temptation..
using the same scale, in the world we live in today, ppl who use drugs are " cool "..
gangs, foul language, and ppl who resort to extreme violence and show no mercy or compassion are ICONS AND ROLE MODELS...
in many ways, the human condition is slipping back into a state of chaoes and jungle like behaviour, in essence negating all the human development that has occured through out history..and rendering us closer and closr to a society of animals ( in my openion )
to break this circle, ( again in my openion ), we need to set conditions where the pursuit of spiritual fullfilment is possible, not shunned..
now ppl who believe in God and are serious about thier practice are looked at like geeks and nurds!!:)
its just not right:)
http://hasous.spaces.live.com
"missiles, warships and nuclear weapons cannot establish security. Instead they destroy what peace and security build." Anwar Sadat
I too have a hard time to grasp why anyone would want to harm a child (sexually or otherwise)....and I still think it should be illegal AND punishable....but its just interesting how the punishment changes if its a chemical imbalance (just for example) that causes mental lapses.
An example would be murder....illegal...and even insane people get punished for it, but a very different punishment than the sane.
What i'm not certain about is your claim that "healthy" men would only be attracted to women....obviously a product of your religious beliefs that leave no room for gays, asexuals, or even people with low or no sex drive. As for what exactly constitues a "halal" way of satisfying your urges I won't touch with a ten foot pole.
Each society regulates what it defines as "normal" but as far as I know they ALL agree pedophelia is out! But I still agree with Gypsy that not enough research has been done in this field.
Stay safe all.
Perfection does not exist. The question therefore, is: what level of imperfection are we willing to settle for?
The thing is Hussamf, you can't force someone to have true faith. There will always be people who use religion for their own means. I mean there's no way possible to make everyone follow religion properly and believe everything it teaches.
"You don't have to like me for who I am but we'll see what you're made of by what you make of me." Ani Difranco
ragnarock: to each his openion man:)..i never said marriage and belief in God will abolish pidophelia ( i actually explicitlly said it wont ) , i said it will help restrain it and reveal it...
gypsy: again u mix the wrongfull acts of those who practice a religion, with true faith...they are 2 un related things..
if a priest is a pidophile, he clearly doesnt ( really) believe in God or fear God!! that goes without saying:)
its amazing 2 me how simply mentioning God makes all hell break loose hehehe
any how..
order of merit to gypsy for doing her homework on Aicha's marriage to Mohammad..
http://hasous.spaces.live.com
"missiles, warships and nuclear weapons cannot establish security. Instead they destroy what peace and security build." Anwar Sadat
That conscience i was referring to is called morality.
No matter what race, color, religion you have, this morality
is the sole compass that leads us to that sense, remember...
...the right and wrong.
The temptation to you may not be tempting to another, and vice versa. It relaly boils down to knowing a person's reaction to that issue - morality.
These gross and perverted minds have neglected to align themselves to the that direction, the moral issue.
Ragnarock ...
I can't figureout how anyone would be ,
"born with a biological condition that CAUSED this behavious."
*born with a desire to harm small children*?!
That doesn't sound right?
How can somebody molest a child and blame it on BIOLOGY?
Biologically , healthy normal men have a strong desire for women.
If he does what he must in a good ,halal manner then personally i'm ok with that.
However, if he preys on innocent, unsuspecting women just because he was biologically born with the urge then that is very wrong in my humble opinion .He can't excuse his actions saying,
"Your honour !it was just my biology acting up again "
Just because one has a strong urge doesn't mean they can do as they please .
If someone really wants to harm children there is no shame in getting conselling and proper treatment.
It doesn't mean I know form personal experience...it just invites poeple to look at all sides ofthe argument and use logic instead of emotion....especially as desertmoon's cry was a direct tug on the old heart strings.
And I agree with you, it would be facinating to know the "why"...which means we both agree with Gypsy....more reserach needs to be done!
Stay safe all.
Perfection does not exist. The question therefore, is: what level of imperfection are we willing to settle for?
Would it change your views if it was your lil brother or son or someone close to you who was born with a biological condition that CAUSED this behavious desertmoom?
I'm not disagreeing with you...just food for thought.
Stay safe all.
Perfection does not exist. The question therefore, is: what level of imperfection are we willing to settle for?
Gypsy said..
"Also, what does it mean if we find out it is biological, and these people can't help what they do :S What does that mean? "
Just vividly *picture it* happen to your lill' sister or daughter or someone close to you .
I think you will get your answer very quickly as to what should be done with the offender .
andrew it doesn't outrage me at all because by and large it is true. I know I'd have been pretty chuffed if my english teacher had tried it on, actually same goes for my french teacher and the spanish assistant.
I have no doubt that the marriage was politically motivated, and not desire...but fact remains that society widely accepted relations or marriage with a child. That's what I was trying to illustrate with that example.
I have no doubt that the marriage was politically motivated, and not desire...but fact remains that society widely accepted relations or marriage with a child. That's what I was trying to illustrate with that example.
One thing that has always bothered me about the portrayal of pedophilia in the western media is why we take a different approach depending on the gender of the offender.
I recall many times in Australia (I use this example since that is where I am from) male teachers have been be arrested, charged, incarcerated and become the objects of scorn for playing around with their female (or male) pupils. And rightly so. I don't care if the student 'wanted it' or not... that's why we have such a thing as the 'age of consent' - below this age victims do not have the capacity to give their consent.
However, on more than one occasion female teachers have been found guilty of the same behaviour. In a recent case, the female teacher received a token fine, was told she couldn't teach for a while and the case was quickly forgotten. I was enraged when I heard that someone speaking in her defence had said that 'what teenage boy wouldn't want to have sex with his teacher'. The thinking seemed to be that when men fiddle with kids they are sick criminals, but when women do it, it was a lapse in judgement and hopefully they won't offend.
Yes you are right in that one should be diplomatic and try not to trample on people's faith...but you have to draw the line somewhere..."holy topics" that are offlimits are interfereing with "My" beliefs...but religious people have no problem trampling on my beliefs as long as no one comes near theirs.
I'm not talking about THIS particular topic (I know almost nothing about it)....and i'm sorry to take it out on YOU...but i'm fed up with these requests in general....just because something is off topic for YOU (as in believers, not you Salax in particular) does not mean it HAS to be for EVERYONE else....this is like shoving YOUR beliefs down others throat....please do not make such requests in a PUBLIC forum!!
Stay safe all.
Perfection does not exist. The question therefore, is: what level of imperfection are we willing to settle for?
Oh, just another thing to throw in. The marriage between Aisha and Mohammed was a political one, not a marriage of desire, and the consummation was protocal. So I really don't think anyone can call Mohammed a pedophile.
"You don't have to like me for who I am but we'll see what you're made of by what you make of me." Ani Difranco
Whereas "I" (I don't want to speak for others) CAN discuss anything and anyone I want to....I just don't because i'm not informed enough about the subject....but please leave your closeminded and restrictive requests to those who are happy to remnain obedient WITHOUT questions such as yourself.
Please consider your request studied and DENIED! I'm not trying to be rude, but I am fed up with people telling me what I can and cannot discuss. Just as I cannot tell you what to discuss, you cannot tell me what not to discuss...please realize that respect is a 2 way street, and you are disrespecting ME when you want to make certain topics off limits to me....this is a public forum, and no one is forcing you to participate
Stay safe all.
Perfection does not exist. The question therefore, is: what level of imperfection are we willing to settle for?
That's the spirit. Let's not discuss it at all just in case someone gets upset...
I know it is, I credited you above somewhere.
That said me being me I am not that bothered with finding out why really. I mean once you discover someone is nuts and is going to hurt someone lock em up and throw away the key.
I just hate assumptions of "wrong" and "right" which are social constructs and not physical laws
i see your point. i guess onset of puberty and sexual maturity are two different thngs..will do more research..
Which is exactly the point of this post Timbo! Research isn't being done!
"You don't have to like me for who I am but we'll see what you're made of by what you make of me." Ani Difranco
kikomodos by your interpretation we all feel the same as a pedophile but our "conscience" prevents us from being overcome by the temptation. I don't believe you and I know I don't have any desire to have sex with a prepubescent so my conscience doesn't come into it.
I think it is necessary to explore why some do feel that desire. It is not satan and it is not just them being disgusting individuals as far as I am concerned.
It was just to get your attention guys.
Anyway, here's my point of view...
Each of us have what we call conscience, in layman's terms it is the sense of right and wrong. We all use this the moment we wake up, really. From as simple as "getting up from bed" to "driving and behaving like who knows." I hope you get the idea...
And, its not that they dont have a conscience, they do, but how they react to conscience is another thing. They keep on repeating the same wrong and perversed indulgence to the point where the "wrong" no longer exist in their "senses" making it "right" in their own point of view.
It's the same principle as with other heinous crimes like murder, rape, burglary, incest, embezzlement, and many others.
And, yes, it's a crime based on our individual and society's conscience as a whole community.
Qatarina, I read a quick bio of Aisha, and I do believe that her marriage was more then likely consumated after she reached puberty (many girls can hit puberty as young as 8 and 9) since she was kept in her parents house, not because Mohammed was away at war, but because she was not ready for marriage. So, let's give Mohammed the benefit of the doubt.
Timbo, Most countries do diversify in the law between pre pubescent pedophilia and stautory rape (sex with someone between 13 and 16). It's really really touchy issue. I don't believe religious ideas are what's changed our socities views of when the approprite age for intercourse is (since the church married these 9 and 11 year olds) but rather ideas about consent and maturity. Back then an 11 year old girl, or boy, really had no choice if a man made a move on them or forced them into marriage. Also we were much more mature at 13 back then then we are now (precisely because of these forced situations).
I don't see an issue with some thinking a teenager is attractive, after all we parade around 13 year old girls as runway models, once someone hits puberty they are designed to be sexually attractive. However knowing what we know now about maturity and sex, I can't endorse a 40 year old marrying a 13 year old. I don't believe she's mentally ready.
However I think there is something seriously wrong with anyone who find a pre pubescent child attractive.
"You don't have to like me for who I am but we'll see what you're made of by what you make of me." Ani Difranco
Because 8 is very young and it is unlikely that in the byzantine era which was only about 600 years ago ages of puberty were so much earlier in general (ignoring one offs). In fact it is currently believed the improved diet and standards of living (or possibly obesity)of the modern era are making puberty manifest earlier.
8 is believable as a date for the onset of puberty but a sexual mature female aged 8 I do not believe.
why? i'd like to know why you think so...please elaborate...(not angry or anything).just want a healthy discussion...
Qatarina I dispute that fact
Yeah Gypsy but as you mentioned earlier our society would lable you a pedophile now for any relations at all with a girl/boy of say 12/13/14. Now I am not saying this is wrong/right I am just discussing but since we are biologically programmed to desire a sexually ready female/male should the above crime lets call it sociopedophilia be in the same category as biopedophilia (i.e. relations with a pre pubescent)?
Our should they be categorised as identical because it is in fact societies' norms and moral values that ultimately result in the feelings of dirtyness and violation felt by the victims and this would be felt by all uner the age of consent in whichever society they lived.
During the Byzantine era, girls reached puberty at age 8. So, when prophet Muhammad (pbuh) consumated his mariage to Aisha, she was already sexually mature. Plus, I think gypsy said no discussion of race, ethnicity, culture, religion, etc...?
I purposly stayed away from pederasty Timbo, although I do have my doubts as to whether a boy under the age of puberty is biologically capable of sex either, and in the case of the Ancient Greeks the boys were usually past puberty as well. The fact is, biologically, our sexual desires and sexual readiness occur with puberty. Although we may have sexual curiosity (playing doctor, etc) at a younger age, we are not mentally (as in desiring of) or physically prepared for sex until we hit puberty.
"You don't have to like me for who I am but we'll see what you're made of by what you make of me." Ani Difranco
you know nothing about homosexuals,right?if you do,you wont talk like this.i have some homo and lesbian friends and believe me,they think much better and are much more tolerant and open mindet as we "normals".so please,think bevore post.
*Create your own destiny,fighting against your dark sides,raise your
spirituality.Every day is a new day.A new life.
Keep the faith!*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pederasty_in_ancient_Greece
I think a critical component is to differentiate between biological sexual maturity and sociological (i.e. that imposed by society)
Clearly for the former your points are valid Gypsy but for the latter a degree of open mindedness might be required. i.e. are you a pedophile for fancying a pubescent girl/boy?
Careful Salax. Sleeping with a child of 9 is considered pedophilia. Perhaps you should read butterflies post.
"You don't have to like me for who I am but we'll see what you're made of by what you make of me." Ani Difranco
9??? I can only imagine the damage he must have done to her then. Obviously it was accepted because no one cared what kind of damage could be done to a little girl. Did she ever bear a child?
"You don't have to like me for who I am but we'll see what you're made of by what you make of me." Ani Difranco
"no culture has ever ever accepted people having relations with a child below the age of puberty"
That is not exactly true.Example: Muhamamad married Aisha when She was only six and the marriage was consumated when she was 9 (this was due to him being away in wars). this was very much accepted back to his time
Timbo, from my research no culture has ever ever accepted people having relations with a child below the age of puberty. There are actually physical problems and physical damage caused by the act, and children have died from bleeding to death due to this act. Fact of the matter is, we are not physical ready to handle sexual acts till we hit puberty.
"You don't have to like me for who I am but we'll see what you're made of by what you make of me." Ani Difranco
What exactly makes it wrong? I am playing devil's advocate here but surely the dirty connotations that we in our modern culture attach to sex make pedophilia a doubly revolting crime to all here. The outrage is evident here but I wonder if in other ancient cultures it was so despised (Gypsy perhaps you know from your research)?
A victim of this crime presumably grows up feeling abused and dirty and violated but that must be slightly symptomatic of our cultures' opinions of sex in general.
If sex were nothing out of the ordinary and we lived in a worl dof nudity and free love would it be perceived as the same crime by victims and observers?
Just something to think on...
Dude you dont need to falsely accuse Taliban. They might have had lots of wrongs in them but they never used boys for pleasure. Its a known fact that General Dostam used boys for pleasure. Instead the Taliban abolished the practice of boys being used for sexual satisfaction. I have witnessed this first hand so before you comment you should have something to back you up. You can call taliban human rights abusers in the sense that they did not give freedom to women. They forced women out of colleges and universities because they did not like the concept of co-education.
If you have any data by the Rupert Murdoch's Media (Fox News and etc) than I would be glad to look into it and reconsider my views and opinion. By the way I never agreed with Taliban's policies. The accusation that the Talibans used to sexually abuse boys has been the most blatant lie ever thrown at them.
Hussamf? What you need a God to tell you that peadophilia is wrong?
The Taliban by the way have a habit of dressing up young boys and using them for pleasure.
FYI - i think 4 wives is 'morally decadent' I think having a close loving relationship even though not married is not.
Just because you aren't married doesn't mean you are sleeping around.
Just because you are married doesn't mean you aren't sleeping around.
I dont need a God to tell me that theft, murder etc are wrong - I can work it out for myself.
Butterfly - good point... if u look back in history then the wider acceptance of peadophilia has definately decreased.
Belief in God is defintely not something that will stop it, how many priests and other religious leaders have been discovered to be pedophiles.
Also Butterfly, just to clarify, Japan is a very sensitive subject, in that the girls who get involved (and they are always girls) are no younger then 12 or 13 and have hit puberty. Any younger is strictly off limits. This is shocking to us now, but until the turn of this century (and beyond) it was perfectly normal for girls to marry as soon as they hit puberty, usually to men 20 and 30 years their senior. Also Japan has always held the cultural value that being a mistress is a very honourable position for a woman, especially a young woman. IF she attaches herself at a young age to a Man with a degree of power it will increase her chances of marrying a high profile man later on. It's a fascinating culture.
"You don't have to like me for who I am but we'll see what you're made of by what you make of me." Ani Difranco
Belief in god and a sexually repressed society is not the best safeguard against this crime...and yes it is a crime wether its genetically motivated or not...as PM said the victims are children and not consenting so they MUST be protected!
ANYTHING in excess is dangerous, so to say ban sexuality to protect from this excess is ludicrous. We are logical adults and can ban drunk driving for instance WITHOUT having to ban ALL alcohol...seperate the harmful and unwanted WITHOUT reverting centuries backwards!
Research is vital to see how we can deal with this issue...even if it is genetic, then we need to try and isolate the causes and see IF it can be chemically cured (for example), or isolate and monitor (not in prison, but a controlled environment with no "unmonitored access to minors for instance" environment) those who suffer from it, so that they do not victimize children.
It IS a taboo subject and it is schocking how little we know about this "so much more prevalent than we want to believe" issue. Kudos for bringing it up Gypsy.
Stay safe all.
Perfection does not exist. The question therefore, is: what level of imperfection are we willing to settle for?
there is absolutely no " human condition " that doesnt have a " cause "
the fact that something has a reason doesnt make it more or less acceptable..
alcoholism has reasons..
sex addiction has a reason!
smoking has a reason!
everything has a reason..
what we need 2 do is wieght " on a moral scale " whether the action is right or wrong, and if it is wrong, do everything we can 2 stop it...
a good starting point 2 try and stop pidophelia ( and all other sex related crimes like rape for example ) , is for the humancommunity to stop selling sex as it sells chocolate..
there is just way too much sexual stimulation in the media , and there is so much obssession with sex , promescuity , and open unihibeted sexual relations outside any frame work ( mainly marriage ), and that in my openion is a big part of the problem..
the contemprary amrican philosopher " sorokin " described the world ( bac in the sixties ) as bieng morallay decedant..and i totallay agree..
in all ages and times, sex has been always something on the minds of all men and women who have reached pubirty..
never before however has sex been so easilly accseessed, whether directlly ( with a partner ), or by images and videos accessible to litraly anyone around the globe now via the internet...
on the flip side of the coin, pidophiles in my openion are craving control over a sexual victim..
with no reseach to back my point up, i believe that most pidophiles have themselves been subjected to rape or sexual misconduct as children..
i do not know how a woman can be pidophile really...
but a male pidohile is ( in my mind ) craving submission and control over a victim, a twisted version of male dominance ..
possiblly because he cant establish relations with the opposite sex ( or same sex if he is gay )...
bottom line is, there is nothing that excuses this kind of behaviour, and those predators must be hunted down and have the threat of them assaulting a victim nutralised with any means neccessary..
i know way 2 many girls who have been raped as children, and it is so sad what it does to them phsycologically..
no one should ever have 2 indure that...
one last point...
i think a strog belief in God, and access 2 marriage ( as opposed to unorganised sexual encounters ), are the 2 biggest safe guards for any society against all forms of sexual misconduct...
it wont eliminate pidophelia, but it will help restarin it and also reveal it...
no one is a better judge if a man is sexually disturbed than the woman he is living and sleeping with..
http://hasous.spaces.live.com
"missiles, warships and nuclear weapons cannot establish security. Instead they destroy what peace and security build." Anwar Sadat
some things never change.
I don't think they (paedophiles) can't help their sexual desires. I recently watched that film, a paedophile goes thru a lot of suffering trying to fight the social stigma, fight against his dark urges, trying to lead a normal life...he ends up chopping his bits off. Neat.
ANyways, sex with minors was commonly accepted in many past cultures and in places such as Japan, which doesn't make it right, but it shows that it is not some kind of "new, western evil". I believe there is no cure, the only thing that could be done is treatments with drugs that supress arousal (yes quemical castration) and hope that they could lead more or less normal lifestyles.
It gives the pedophiles a total control over their victim and this is what they desire. Total control and obedience. It is just like BDSM where the subdued's control is in the hands of his master. In case of conseting adults involved in BDSM the slave can stop the act any time he wants but in case of pedophiles they have total control over the children who are helpless and unable to stop the abuse.
I have seen married guys wanting to get married to teenage girls in Afghanistan. (Dont ask me Why)
Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely
(I am not a shrink I am just stating what I read in a research paper)
excellent point gypsy
we should research things because basically prevention is a lot better than cure.
you can't cure people who have suffered because of this - research needs to be done.
same for illegal drugs - they aren't that safe because they have not gone thru the clinical trials of legal drugs.... and look at the problems we have even with legal ones.
yes research both scientific and ethnographic need to be carried out.
finding out why helps everyone.
i have an ethnographic research paper on the behaviour patterns of drug dealers - this greatly helped the police etc target the issue to a deep level rather than shoving dealers from one turf to another.
Oh oh what's the topic ? *has her eyes wide open in excitment*
I'm not always right, but I'm never wrong :P - Garfield
without stirring up a lot of controversy? Lets just say...woohoo!!! and have a huge smile!!
gypsy *scratching my head and smoothing my eyebrows* its looooongg..i need visine for my eyes..:P
and hmmmmmm, mom scarlett, i really wanted to open a thread about the thing i texted you..but just controlling myself not to..hehehehe...excuse us gypsy..:D
[img_assist|nid=12867|title=Nothing in life is to be feared. It is only to be understood.|desc= |link=none|align=left|width=44|height=180]
Ohh fiddledeedee.....
Read the article!!!
"You don't have to like me for who I am but we'll see what you're made of by what you make of me." Ani Difranco
oh lol, i didnt read the article either...:P
[img_assist|nid=12867|title=Nothing in life is to be feared. It is only to be understood.|desc= |link=none|align=left|width=44|height=180]
That too. :P
"You don't have to like me for who I am but we'll see what you're made of by what you make of me." Ani Difranco
lol...
umm yeah..lets let them loose so we can follow their progress..riiight...and poof, they disappear...
they are afraid that this can't be remedied at all...given all the factors and causes...its like a terminal case waiting to just die out on them...but if only there is manual or guide to spot the early stage of becoming a pedophile (even typing this word brings cringes on me), maybe they could prevent it to becoming a full blown one..
for example if a person who is inclined to seeing nude children, enjoying it..one should ask himself "why? and how come i gain pleasure watching those"....and ufffff, i should start the manual don't you think?
[img_assist|nid=12867|title=Nothing in life is to be feared. It is only to be understood.|desc= |link=none|align=left|width=44|height=180]
Well in the article it says that they are afraid to research because
A) they are afraid they will find out that people are simply born that way and it's not caused by societal factors (which is very likely)
B) Researching requires letting many of them back into society and observing them.
"You don't have to like me for who I am but we'll see what you're made of by what you make of me." Ani Difranco
you'd think they'd be more than happy to find out the origins so they could figure out a cure
That's the thing Owen, we don't know one way or the other, because no one has the slightest clue what causes it because scientists are afraid to look into it.
"You don't have to like me for who I am but we'll see what you're made of by what you make of me." Ani Difranco
but don't you think such case can be treated?..given it can be..somehow in the long run a situation might trigger it and boom! will be back to his hideous act..
well logically you are right on that, blame it on the upbringing, their environment...
[img_assist|nid=12867|title=Nothing in life is to be feared. It is only to be understood.|desc= |link=none|align=left|width=44|height=180]
because I've seen what losing someone to a horrible crime can do to a family...but, to each his own opinion on what they believe...
That's the thing Owen, we can't treat them if we don't know what causes it.
"You don't have to like me for who I am but we'll see what you're made of by what you make of me." Ani Difranco
i dont what to know what causes such behavior/sickness as it is really a sick mind work..it could be from upbringing, psychological factors, there are reasons of course but not an excuse for such...all i want is to nail them and be put behind bars or treated (?) if possible..but i doubt that they can be...:/
[img_assist|nid=12867|title=Nothing in life is to be feared. It is only to be understood.|desc= |link=none|align=left|width=44|height=180]
I disagree with the death penalty. For many reasons that I won't go into. Yet I'm for the torture of Pedophiles...hmm.. I guess this is why we know more about how a serial killers mind works then a pedophiles.
"You don't have to like me for who I am but we'll see what you're made of by what you make of me." Ani Difranco
I never agree to death penalty, first cause it's the easy way out and second cause I don't believe we have the right to decide when to end one's life.
I'm not always right, but I'm never wrong :P - Garfield
but isn't death penalty the easy way out for people like that ?
I'm not always right, but I'm never wrong :P - Garfield
our own private conversation here? cept for corne, who is quiet now, salax..who aded his 1 cent worth and richard...the original first post...we are the only ones..lol
I agree with the death penalty too..
Yes I know, that's why I dislike the trend of seperate areas of the prisons for sex offenders. But I'm cruel that way.
"You don't have to like me for who I am but we'll see what you're made of by what you make of me." Ani Difranco
or prison..they don't usually make it out because they are usually killed by the other inmnates...most don't take kindly to those that molest children...even tho they might have killed someone themselves..different set of rules there.
the mental images of that one..yuck....
Nope, apprantely some (sorry) Texas offenders, who had that done, found out a way around it. I'm not sure I want to figure out how. :(
"You don't have to like me for who I am but we'll see what you're made of by what you make of me." Ani Difranco
cut off the offending part..(course that would only work in the male offenders) then the problem is half solved.
Well see this is what I mean. This is why we need to do research on it, no matter what the outcome of the research.
"You don't have to like me for who I am but we'll see what you're made of by what you make of me." Ani Difranco
at least if there were hope it would be better...Ido know that there is a drug they can take to make themselves impotent..but they have to take it the rest of their lives.
Actually according to the article I pasted that's not true. Pedophilia is a lot like alocholism (or so they think) and offenders can be rehabilitated through therapy. However they think that stress is a major factor in making the offenders act out. Really read the article it's interesting.
"You don't have to like me for who I am but we'll see what you're made of by what you make of me." Ani Difranco
if they would just make the child abusers get a tattoo on their forehead..kind of like a red CA...then we'd know as would the children...but these people are so evil...they befriend the child and lure them in...which is why they are so insidious.
Corne..I read that pedophilia couldn't be cured even by psychological help..seems they just go along with the treatment then go out and do it again as sooon as they are released
The scariest part of it to me is that we know so little about it! I mean what if there's an easy solution that we have never seen because everyone refuses to research it!
"You don't have to like me for who I am but we'll see what you're made of by what you make of me." Ani Difranco
The scariest part is that pedophiles turn out to be the people we least expected.
I'm not always right, but I'm never wrong :P - Garfield
It's definitely not a genetic thing, it's a mental disorder that can be treated through psychiatric help. Only punishing them will serve no purpose because after they're done with jail, they'll go out and do what they used to do, so they must be diagnosed and treated.
I'm not always right, but I'm never wrong :P - Garfield
its absolute nonsense. Theres not a country in the world not affected by this sickness.
"Sickness caused due to sexual exploitation present in the family"
Thats just being ill informed.
[img_assist|nid=17864|title=Chicks dig Guys with skills|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=440|height=440]
That's part of our mission to combat it, publisiczing it so people know that it's happening and don't just ignore it.
"You don't have to like me for who I am but we'll see what you're made of by what you make of me." Ani Difranco
its a global thing...it knows no boundaries...
the reason you hear about America having them is that we REPORT it, not suppress it!!!
Mir, pedophilia is equally as present in India. It's EVERYWHERE! I said that in my opening post, let's not turn this into culture bashing. There is not a culture in the world that promotes this.
"You don't have to like me for who I am but we'll see what you're made of by what you make of me." Ani Difranco
America is renowned for such cases of lunatics..... Paedophiles omigosh...
Sickness caused due to sexual exploitation present in the family
a psychological problem from birth which is triggered by the social norms and values that person experiences during its early or vulnerable years. It has been stated that alot of offenders were victims themselves as a child. ( I dont agree with that 100%), but it would add to the evidence regarding norms and values.
I dont believe it can be cured and i dont think there is a punishment severe enough to deal with the molestation of an innocent child. If caught they have to be kept away from society for life. Its dispicable crime at its worst.
[img_assist|nid=17864|title=Chicks dig Guys with skills|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=440|height=440]
That's what I've always thought to Scarlett. But they are saying in this article that they are afraid to do research on the subject because they think it will lead to the same conclusion as homosexuality, that they are predisposed to be pedophiles. And if that's true, what does that change about the way we punish them?
"You don't have to like me for who I am but we'll see what you're made of by what you make of me." Ani Difranco
along with their nurture or upbringing...whatever it is...I know that they say it can't be totally cured. Which brings to mind..why, if they can't cure it, do they release these monsters from prison??? If anything ever needed a punishment to fit the crime, its this one. There's no excuse for ever sexually molesting a child, and I mean physically or mentally. those people who watch and or buy, kiddie porn are sick, sick, sick..
Salax...I think homosexuals are predisposed to their position in life..its not a disease or something they choose to be.
Anyway my point is that I find it really disturbing that we know so little about something that affects all of us in some way.
"You don't have to like me for who I am but we'll see what you're made of by what you make of me." Ani Difranco
Well according to your holy books your God made the Devil, so if that's what's creating pedophilia then he's a really awful God. No wonder I don't believe in religion.
"You don't have to like me for who I am but we'll see what you're made of by what you make of me." Ani Difranco
Umm, I don't believe it's the devil. Rather a psychological disorder. My wonder is if it's genetic or acquired do to nurture issues.
"You don't have to like me for who I am but we'll see what you're made of by what you make of me." Ani Difranco
But what if it turns out that it's like being homosexual, and you're just born that way. Doesn't that raise issues. (I'm not in ANYWAY advocating this, I just worry about homosexuals and pedophiles being lumped together, as I see them as very different things!)
"You don't have to like me for who I am but we'll see what you're made of by what you make of me." Ani Difranco
see more on this here
French charity lied, UNICEF says in Chad kidnapping case
Children reportedly lured by sweets in adoption scheme
France has backed Chad in condemning a French charity whose workers were arrested for trying to smuggle 103 children out of the African country, claiming falsely — according to UNICEF — that they were Darfurian orphans in urgent need of medical help.
http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2007/10/29/france-darfur.html?ref=rss
I want to know what causes it AND I want to see them punished. A crime against innocemce and vulnerability is the most heinous of crimes.
Victory attained by violence is tantamount to a defeat, for it is momentary. Mahatma Gandhi