Westerners - Overpaid and Over Here!
I found this article insulting and erroneous. Intended to spread disquiet. What say you ?
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DOHA: A prominent Qatari psychologist, who earned her PhD from the UK, has lashed out at Western expatriates and said there was no justification in treating them as superior in workplace to all others, including Qataris.
“Many Qataris have the same degrees from the same universities which some Western expatriates have attended, but they (the former) are treated as inferior,” Dr Moza Al Malki said.
“That beats any logic.”
Formerly from Qatar University, she said in remarks to this newspaper yesterday that she agreed with people in her community that Western expatriates draw higher pay and perks than even locals.
“To be fair, I deeply sympathise with Asian expatriates who slog and do the hard work and are paid a pittance.”
She said the differences in pay scales of locals and Asian expatriates and those of Western expatriates were shockingly huge.
“It is there for everyone to see. It is so obvious,” said Al Malki. “And for this our governments are to blame.”
They might have struck deals with their governments that their citizens would be paid more, she said. “I know of a Western expatriate whose monthly salary is QR1m ($274,600). Could you believe it?” There are many who are paid QR500,000 a month. And this is in addition to the hefty annual bonuses they get and other privileges.
“Our governments rely so much on them. They hire Western experts at the drop of a hat — for anything and everything that is to be done.”
Citing Qatar University where she once taught, Al Malki said when the university was changing its medium of instruction for certain streams, its management got a visiting professor from the West to help implement the change.
“The university did everything that would benefit Western expatriates.
“Would you believe that this ‘visiting’ professor stayed here for eight long years?”.
Al Malki said many Qatari teachers were removed from Qatar University although they had the same degrees from the same universities Western expatriates attended who replaced them.
“They wouldn’t let us be in the same job for which they would hire a Westerner although our qualifications would be the same and from the same universities.”
People should not be differentiated on the basis of such considerations, she said.
The comments that appear on the local social media on the issue should be taken seriously, said the psychologist.
The Peninsula
Rambo31. I don't think many of them work for 500 QR a month any more. Although still not for much more. Also - to get these jobs they pay to agents between 2000 to 4000 QR mostly. I don't know where did you get your figures from.
God blesses the west with peace and prosperity and huge wages when they come to the gulf. just get used to it, we are the chosen people.
Talking about labourers being paid 500-800QR it is availability of cheap labour in South asian countries it is due to unemployment and lack of good governance.These labourers pay 10000-20000 QR to agents to get these jobs.
God has not made us equal.Here Westerners refers to persons from US,Western Europe,Canada .I think it is supply and demand law.
wow, the author of this thread created a lie and this is how many replies there are!! wow journalism at its BEST!
Forum's never become so hot, when discussing about labourers earning less than QR 500/-...
LOL, you are debating about people who get paid half millions ! lol...
Most westerners are paid below 50k...and often get about 1.5 times what they would get in their country...
Pay less than that and nobody will come to build this country which needs improvement in all area...
If you go to supermarket and buy cauliflower for a 1000 Riyals per KG, you are at fault and not the storekeeper.It is because you don't know the real market value or you overestimated the health benefits of cauliflower. And in both the scenario , purchaser is a fool.And then there is one famous English saying ' A fool and his money are parted soon.
If westeners are treated better (in general terms) than nationals, with few expections, who are the ones in VIP events, stores and airport sections everywhere?
Westeners come to full up positions that are required for the business continuity and growth of many compamies.
On the other hand, payment and wwages should be based on competency, roles and responsibilities, experience and capabilities, regardless of race, nationality, sex or religion.
if luckily if someone offers you 500k per month please dont accept. :))
I'm a western expat and im not getting paid no where near $500,000. and my fellow western expats don't make this much either. she is tripping. of course there are some who do make that much but they are the minority.
i work in education. in independent schools qatari teachers are getting paid $25,000 and up. i know one qatari woman who is making $32,000 just to teach.plus when they retire they will continue to get a full salary as their pension. western teachers get paid around $14,000-$18,000 and no pension for them.
she is also missing the fact that yes a Qatari may have the same qualification as a western expat but they do put in the work as the western expat.
dfrt444 : 1-Who said i'm wearing a Qatari outfit to fit in?
2-Who said I wear Qatari outfits all the time?
3-What's embarrassing about wearing a traditional outfit of any country?
4- My Qatari friends and colleagues love it when I wear their outfit. they take it as a sign of respect and embracing the culture rather than ghettoizing one's self inside shutting out inside little communities.
5- I have worn Pakistani/Indian outfits before and i'm neither one.
6- " man up and be yourself"? well I think I have already done that when I posted my real pic here.
cheers.
I think I do.. Heard it in a few films and read it in a few magazines. I left out one word intentionally :O)
Well degrees are not the same I am sorry!
I can talk from my experience that during university, in the U.S, there was many Arabs (Qatari, UAE, Iraqi, Jordan) and honestly, MOST of them cheated their way to graduation. The engineers were doing it to please their daddy and to get to become a CEO for daddy's companies after graduation. 95% of the Arabs I knew (excluding Iraqis & Libanese and Syrians & Palastinians) were any good at what they studied.
If these are considered the creme of the crop, then yes they have all the reasons to feel inferior!
Marco; why do you have to wear qatari clothes to fit in? once some one finds out you are not qatari that would be really embarrassing. Man up and just be your self.
i concur fully
So what if they are over paid.. it is not being done from your pocket...People who make noises that the westerners are overpaid usually feel inadequate themselves and know for sure that they themselves are not half as good or as qualified as this westerners.
Deadman: I'm all chill, burv (:
Britexpat, you do know whence that phrase, "overpaid and over here" comes?
Mandi
I make the same salary in Qatar as I would in the U.S., I just get better tax deductions, free vehicle/housing to work here, has nothing to do with the Qatari government, I'm paid U.S. dollars in the U.S. If I had a family, I would not come here to work, school's are far too expensive, medical care is substandard even though hospitals have the newest equipment, cars and motorcylces cost double what they're worth. If you don't like what you are getting paid in Qatar, take it up with your own countries Labor Department, they are the ones that set the salary expectations for you working in this country for your given professions. I'm sure Qatar would pay you much less if they could.
Today's business policies and procedures are all drafted, implemented and monitored by people from the west. Whereas, people from third world countries have to learn these norms and standards when they land in international scenarios from the scratch.
This does not mean that people from east don't work hard. They do. But then there is a difference between developers and those who follow.
That is why you see westerners enjoying a better salary and status as compared to people from east.
Enough said :) Over and out ! Peace!
Marco: Dude just chill out :) So we agree to disagree, as simple as that :)
I still say that don't generalize the origin of professionals. Fact is where are the top engineering or business schools? Its the west. So most of the western people have education from better rated institutes. They have exposure to Construction and other businesses, much earlier than people from third world countries.
Most of them are organized and hard working too. But its not their color or race that makes them superior. Its their exposure to better education and experience than many of the professionals from third world countries.
Now that's my point of view. We are talking about majority not exceptions.
fubar: Very well said. It’s the unjustified hierarchy system designed by the govt (according to Moza )
that needs to go.
Marco to bring the discussion back to the article the essential point isn't the hierarchy of different expats (and no one would really dispute that there is one).
The key point is the allegation that employers "(treat Western Expats) as superior in workplace to all others, including Qataris" and give them more pay.
Can anyone anyone here honestly say that, in general terms, MORE western expats drive S-Class Mercedes Benzs than nationals? MORE western expats are seen in the First Class section of Qatar Airways flights than nationals? MORE western expats are shopping a the high end boutiques at The Pearl? MORE western expats have a huge house with multiple maids and drivers than nationals?
So your respond to my “foolish comment”, by resorting to personal slurs and insults?
Well dead man, Ur slurs as much foolish as my foolish comments. (:
Isuli: so only a western is highly qualified and ready on call?
1-I know at least two Qatari female doctors who are very highly qualified and are ready on call. And sometimes they have to work 7 days a week because of the work pressure.
2- “No one forced them to come here”, well that’s not what the attached article is discussing.
People need to snap out of their complexes.
Marco: I am not a superstitious! Nor do i believe in bad luck and good luck charms! I believe in my destiny which is 50% under my control. Besides I am the DeadMan! :)
Notwithstanding the above mentioned, It was your foolish comment that asked me to elaborate my point of view.
All western expatriates may dream making the huge salaries mentioned here above by Dr. Moza Al-Makki. Irrespectively of citizenship, the salary should be based on responsibilities and experience, along with qualifications.
Supply and demand plays an important role and unless salaries here offer better incentives, westeners would prefer to stay in their home countries. To keep the same standard of life you may experience in USA or EU, here you have to pay at least 50% while food and housing is extremely expensive too.
On the other hand, if the organisations are willing to pay such salaries is because they are getting benefits out of it.
Deadman: Pretend? Feels bad abt his origin? What are you on about bro?
You don’t even know me (:
Deadman: you don’t have to flaunt your wealth on a public forum, it could draw bad luck (:
But there’s a difference between calling a spate a spate, and complaining.
Marco,,, When I said they desreve I mean t by that they have a high Position and very Qualified and they are Ready on - call
I know someone "A Family Friend", He sometimes works on Friday and Saturday and he is a Manager and well Qualified!
But I agree, that sometimes it happens that a Westerner Fresh Graduated can take more than Asian with experience!
I didn't deny that.
and Well, No body was forced to come here, you chose !
So don't look at the others
Well, there are western people who do not even have any degree nor diploma at all are hired and get paid exhuberantly, why because they get hired for whom they know in the company - so who does mafia? They even do work here on a visit visa which I believe is not legal, yet the company keeps them for they have someone in the company backing them up inside. A lot of them here are and I've witnessed.
Marco: Sorry but a person who pretends to be a "Qatari" and feels bad about his/her origin is bound to think negative about everything. Even his/her........ job.
Sorry but cant help you in this regard :(
Marco: You need to read my full comments again. I am not speaking for myself alone. Do i look frustrated to you? Or am I complaining about my job? Did I say I am not good enough to compete?
I am not a multi-billionaire, but i have enough in my pocket to live rest of my life without depending on my job. But that is not my achievement. That is something I inherited from my forefathers.
The only reason I choose to work 12 hours a day, 6 days a week in extreme heat of Qatar, is for my own satisfaction and for the attractive salary that I get. I can say for sure that I have been competing with the very best in the industry. That includes both western and eastern professionals.
we should be thankful as long as any decent professional with integrity is in charge..they don't have to be European..and yes, I also agree that many Management figures indulge in the shameless nepotism and self enrichment you mention; however, again they don't have to be Indians/Sri Lankan..not fair to paint everyone with the same brush..just felt like making that qualification to your sentiments:-)
Typhoon-2012: so true, take the Qatar Museum (Western) top executive and his gay lover basking in this country on family illegal allowance and just abusing govt money.
the fact that you took care to say 'maybe' prevents me from launching an all out attack on you lol:-)
As someone rightfully said.. we should be thankful and grateful for the Europeans being in charge and at the head of Management as if the asians like Indians and Sri Lanki are in charge they turn the organizations and companies into rubbish bins and mafia groups of family and relatives and are more into the self enrichment process and commission business to fill their own pockets
Traffic getting diverted....
I’m sure you didn’t mean they deserve more workload for being experienced.
Marco,, Yes I didn't say about the salaries
I said some of them deserve more because they have more experience.
Deadman: I don’t know if that’s how you see yourself (less organized/less hardworking/less educated) than a westerner. Then that’s your perception of yourself. And you can only speak for yourself.
But I’ll tell you this, that the hardest/most work-oriented /organized / most underappreciated, underpaid working people that I have seen, not only in Qatar but across the GCC are the Pilipinos.
Guys, stop complaining about your jobs. Find a better one if you can.
Its a fact that most of the westerners settle in GCC for a better salary (tax-free) and due to the current unemployment or limited opportunities in their own home countries.
Its also a fact that most of them are very well organized and hard working about their jobs. That is why they are generally paid better.
To conclude the whole thing, they are not being paid out of this world either. Yes there is a little bit of discrimination but then again that happens everywhere. My word is that you should be good enough to compete. Rather than complain. Best of luck :)
Sul: a Western expat in the GCC receives more salary than a non-Western expat.
That’s common knowledge.
Mohadata may be those who are on QL most of the time are multi_tasking with outstanding productivity.
"oh and before i forget, our Western friends, as well as my husband certainly has NO time to be on QL or any other social network during his work day."...
that is a very profound point; there's a lot to think about there and it added a lot to what i will take away from this thread/discussion:-)
Nomerci, yep I have to play with words, thats my job, something like intellectual stuff rather than physical engagement....shuffling through thousands of pages isnt all that easy...a break is always required and what can be better than getting that harmless break, like being on QL..:)
Thumbs up for the Nommy's comment about salaries back home.
Sorry HGL, not wanting to judge , but for working hard you are on QL quite a lot...in fact, i'd say you DO work hard...on QL :P ;)
furthermore, salaries, in general, are higher in the West than some Asian or African countries. Unless a Western person makes more money here than in his/her home country, it is unlikely that they would come here. Of course there are some exceptions.
Why do you think there are no Western construction workers here? Simple, because a fully employed, construction worker in the West generally makes enough money to live a reasonably good life.
:)
Next person..please share your story...rofl..:PPPP
And I get on QL only when I am shifting from one issue to another, just to get over the hangover of the previous issue.
Nomerci...I am on call too 24x7. Almost 99% of times I am in office every Friday and Saturday and during holidays (if I am here). At times have to even give up on my Friday morn tennis which is very painful...:( Get to see family when I travel back home and I am on single status. And seldom I get leave for three or more than three weeks at a stretch else it is for two weeks max. But then again this is what I chose for and so no qualms but if it is considered as working hard and sacrificing major part of my life, guess I too am entitled to that.
The mistakes and the problems starts when we start "Generalizing"
But I agree that "The Experience" should be the reference
Why they give westerners high salaries?
Bcs, the ones with good experience will never leave their country for nothing, there must be something "Encouraging" for them to come, which is the Salary.
Add on, the fault is not only on the Qataris, it is sometimes the people fault, cause when the first one agrees to take a very low salary and then another one followed him, it will be like a rule for the country.
Finally and again, for the "Article" we better not to generalize and YES experience MUST be the reference.
hmmmm hmmm hmmm hmmmm
oh and before i forget, our Western friends, as well as my husband certainly has NO time to be on QL or any other social network during his work day.
nomerci - NO MERCY IN YOUR COMMENT..
Since there is nothing insulting in this article...i request mods to please remove this article...:)
HGL, I can tell you this. My husband , for example, He is ALWAYS on call, day and night. e mails, emergency calls, you name it. Free time, well, a bit here and there in between. 8 hour days or less? no, so far, in 9 years, not a single one.
Sacrifices? well, I would not call it that, because he has made the choice to come here. but, of course it is hard to see the family only once a year for 3 weeks. and no, he can't go on vacation for 2 or 3 months like some other people can.
And this is the reality for pretty much all our Western friends.
Just my personal experience.
What is meant by:
- really hard working, &
-have sacrificed major part of their lives for their jobs.
If they want to replace me with a cheap Asian, then that is their preogative and I will go home. It is not as if I have to return to a third world country and live in my own filth.
Plus people forget, that westerners are discrimnated against at the lower paid jobs as they are only for Asians.
O come on. Who gets that kind of salary? 1 million Qr a month :) I have been working in Oil&Gas construction industry for almost 10 years now. That includes people from Shell, RasGas, Adnoc, BHP, Chevron, and Aramco.
Yes there has always been discrimination for color and creed but its not a general rule. In today's industry, only the best survive. Its a queue of people that are waiting to apply as soon as some one fails. And trust me i have seen so many "Westerners' fail and they are kicked out from jobs too. But most of them are really hard working and have sacrificed major part of their lives for their jobs.
So guys stop being jealous and prove yourself, so that you can grow too.
Nonmerci, of the tens of thousands of western expats living here, I would be surprised if there are even 2 individuals earning 500,000/month or more. But some people have such a distorted view of the world they think that they represent ALL westerners.
And then they wonder why they aren't taken seriously, and their intelligence is questioned.
I'd like to know who those people are who earn 500.000 and 1 Million a month...in all my time here NEVER have I met or heard of a western person with that kind of salary!
You are right Hapy.
Government and semi-government salaries are approved by their respective ministers and by other senior officials. Who are Qatari.
Why blame the expats for the salaries that they are offered? Blame the people who approve them.
I can understand where the Qataris are coming from, if you visit Islamabad, Mumbai or Manila then visit Berlin, London and Paris you would think that the westerners are much more advanced and therefore worth the money.
fubar, government owned/funded institutions are major employers in gulf. Governments lobbying for pay scales of their nationals is well knwon in gulf. Many companies have made a system of evaluation of degrees and experience that benefits the certain nationals. Other countries have successfully lobbied to get their nationals and qualification be put on par with North american qualifications.
Let's also remember that expats don't set their own wages.
All companies in Qatar are majority owned by Qataris. So if anyone is to be held responsible for the wages of expats, its the Qatari owners of those companies.
I do not think there is an expatriate who deserves that much as salary, we believe that he came from a developed country and he can do a lot for the development of laws and regulations but lets make a simple comparison of how much they reward in here for what they are doing as wages and the same in their own countries certainly the result will be impressivefor all.
If that's what you are talking about LLR, then you are right. Western people doing "the same" job as someone of a different nationality may well earn more or less, depending on the nationality of the other person (Qatari or Asian).
But I can assure you that the salary of the westerner has nothing to do with government intervention of the western country.
Asian countries can't even get Gulf countries to pay maids a decent wage. Do you really think that western countries can force Qatar to pay westerners amazingly high salaries?
....Having a few Westerners on your team gives you that air of acceptance and respectability,”
Its common knowledge that even China hires Westerners to sit on the board of directors’ positions, but in reality they do nothing much at all.
It is not about 1 m/moth Fubar, I was talking about the same profession but different salaries based on passports.
fubar it is all part of the jewish conspriacy against the Arabs.....
They talk about trade and exports and bilateral relations etc. But honestly, do you think that Western governments talk about the high level salaries of western employees?
If there are government agreements in place to ensure high salaries for westerners, why are 90% of westerners earning typical wages of around 20,000Qar/month? Why aren't we all earning 1,000,000/month?
Fubar Every Time a PM or President comes on visit, there used to be a whole delegation team with them. Of course they mostly talk about trade relations but they do keep a margin in coordination with local Ambassadors and
administration.
I did had a chance to talk with Japanese delegation once.
Yes it is. O&G companies apart from QP were not included in the 60% and then they all felt they had to join in as well...... 60% on top of huge salaries is a lot.
how many digits for 1 million ??
RC...I guess it is more than $250,000/- pa after the last increase by 60%...:)
CEO/MD/ED in Shell of course get salaries she mentioned. The salary structures are american system with a very huge gap between each ordinates.
I'm from a Western country, and most of my friends are. I have never, ever, in all my life heard of government authorities having a say on the salaries of nationals who work in other countries. Why? Would would a western country seek government intervention to increase the salaries of people working, often without paying tax, in another country?
It's a completely ludicrous statement.
HGL I agree with you, if all they want to pay is Asian rates then they should offer it to westerners and see if they come.
Here is something for you.
A Qatari Senior HR Officer or Senior Engineer in the O&G industry in Qatar earns $250,000 a year in total comp. They don't offer salaries like that to Westerners at those low job levels.
to keep on hiring us when you know this obvious fact then is it?
I work less than my counterparts and get paid many times more than them and have been for nearly 10 years, so damn right i am the clever one!
You can learn alot from me :)
what a joke, a monthly salary of QAR 1 MLN ? Then name who that person is. he knows "many" that earn QAR 500,000 a month ? Then name the companies that offer these salaries. I wonder what 'her agenda' s...
Actually salaries should be based on the job profile irrespective of who does it. The selection process should take care of the right candidate for that job.
It is not actually laughable Fubar, you dont have to call President, there are Government authorities. Diplomatic relationship is also one of so many other important factors. All Arabs are not getting paid equally, Tunisians and Moroccans have a different pay scale than Egyptians and Lebanese.
In my opinion, salaries should be based on qualifications.
I guess she is talking on a larger scale, something on like a unwritten deal between govts, that 'our' people be paid more than you pay an Asian or Qatari by so and so % for something in return...;)
"They might have struck deals with their governments that their citizens would be paid more, she said."
I think it's say to say that she really doesn't know a lot about what she's talking about. Does she truly think that these alleged westerners accept a job in Qatar, they pick up the phone to the government to tell their President to tell their Qatari employer to increase the salary?
It's such a stupid comment as to be actually laughable.
It is oft stated by westerners that they wouldnt come if not offered the kind of salary they demand in justification for them getting paid atrocious salaries. It is time, like other nearby countires have already done, to test waters by offering the same salaries and perks as they offer to non westerners and see if they still dont come. I guess the salaries wouldnt be an issue for sure. It is just a facade created by the westerners.
However, there would be repurcussions to this. If all will be paid lesser who would stay in West Bay and frequent the high end facilties like restos, clubs and buy high end stuff. End of the day even a westerner muct be looking for something to take home.
It's unsurprising that the locals are getting antsy about their salaries. The Central Bank here reports that about 75% of Qatari families have debts exceeding QR250,000.
The same "prominent Qatari psychologist" blamed the banks for loaning them money, rather than blaming them for asking for it. I think that speaks volumes about her views on the maturity of people.
Where are the Asians, blacks, Qataris at the early stage of this country's development plans. The government of then should have give room for diverse expertees, both eastern, western and African ways of development should have been used as the basis for planning. Anyway, it's never too late to correct.
RIP: Yup I get treated differently when I go out wearing the Qatari outfit than when I’m in shorts or blue Jeans.
Western schools rip off western people and discriminate against non-Western applicants.
Don't forget asian storekeepers overcharge Qataris and Westeners as well, giving better prices to their countrymen.
Disgusting discrimnation based on the colour of the skin and what clothes you are wearing.
Good point here, the schools discriminate against westerners, western schools are 5 times the cost of a Filipino or Indian school.
1-My friend (A Filipina ) is one of two receptionists working for a reputable organization here in Doha her work mate ( Also receptionist but western ) receives triple the salary of my Filipina friend. Now what kind of rocket science knowledge being receptionists requires?
2-Work experience: Yes, I agree. But are you saying non-western expats are by default less experienced /knowledgeable in their respective fields than their western counter-parts? Cuz that would make your
Statement seriously discriminatory.
A lot of those organizations are headed by the same group of people this article talks about. So go figure!
Remember the Qatar museum scandal? Just a few weeks ago!
Janneeyy: A senior executive was granted a marriage allowance ( housing, medical care flight tickets etc) for his gay partner (:
I do believe that the figures above are misrepresentations. Many western expats I know would be lucky to earn half the lower figure quoted in the text above per year.
2 points:
House prices in Qatar are some of the highest in the region.
School fees (vary for different nationalities).
Pay is also based on Gender as much as it is nationality, and discrimination is unfortunately rife in these states.
Whilst I cannot fully disagree with the sentiment, I feel there is an unbalanced 'tale' in the above text which would require further investigation to begin to understand the full situation facing these countries and employees.
It also comes down to attitude and can do behaviours. Yes a non-westener may have the same degree and years of experience on paper.
Some but not all of my asian colleagues don't have the drive or confidence to get the job done sometimes, technically very good but just lacking in the attitude section.
What's with the scandal, Marco?
For a start she uses extreme examples to tar all western expats with the same brush. Secondly, she does not take into account experience to go along with qualifications. Lastly, It is a matter of supply and demand. The organisations are willing to pay such salaries because they feel that they are benefitting.
The article is just stating the obvious. It's just going to offend the guilty parties.
I feel insulted when a Filipino civil engineer with longstanding proven work records and credible experience get’s paid half the salary of a western counter-part holding a similar degree. A graduate of some community college. And just forget about the perks.
Brite I also feel nothong Insulting ..........Most of the high paid westerners have been terminated from there high pay salaries to there own country in saudi arabia same system shold be followed here salary should be as per degree and Expereience in that specific field not by skin
Britexpat: What's insulting about this article?
I blame the Qataris! You hired these westerners in the first place, if you don't see the value don't offer them jobs!
insulting because...there is actually justification in treating westerners as superior in workplace to all others?
erroneous because... it is actually logical that westerners get paid more ?
is ready for night shifts ?
are the same .. what about the experience ?