Why I will never live in the USA: Reason #34

a merry can muslim
By a merry can muslim

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081217/ap_on_re_us/muslim_headscarf_arrest

Ga. judge jails Muslim woman over head scarf

ATLANTA – A Muslim woman arrested for refusing to take off her head scarf at a courthouse security checkpoint said Wednesday that she felt her human and civil rights were violated.

A judge ordered Lisa Valentine, 40, to serve 10 days in jail for contempt of court, said police in Douglasville, a city of about 20,000 people on Atlanta's west suburban outskirts.

Valentine violated a court policy that prohibits people from wearing any headgear in court, police said after they arrested her Tuesday.

Valentine, who recently moved to Georgia from Connecticut, said the incident reminded her of stories she'd heard of the civil rights-era South.

"I just felt stripped of my civil, my human rights," she said Wednesday from her home. She said she was unexpectedly released after the Washington-based Council on American-Islamic Relations urged federal authorities to investigate the incident as well as others in Georgia.

Jail officials declined to say why she was freed and municipal Court Judge Keith Rollins said that "it would not be appropriate" for him to comment on the case.

Last year, a judge in Valdosta in southern Georgia barred a Muslim woman from entering a courtroom because she would not remove her head scarf. There have been similar cases in other states, including Michigan, where a Muslim woman in Detroit filed a federal lawsuit in February 2007 after a judge dismissed her small-claims court case when she refused to remove a head and face veil.

Valentine's husband, Omar Hall, said his wife was accompanying her nephew to a traffic citation hearing when officials stopped her at the metal detector and told her she would not be allowed in the courtroom with the head scarf, known as a hijab.

Hall said Valentine, an insurance underwriter, told the bailiff that she had been in courtrooms before with the scarf on and that removing it would be a religious violation. When she turned to leave and uttered an expletive, Hall said a bailiff handcuffed her and took her before the judge.

By a merry can muslim• 20 Dec 2008 16:34
a merry can muslim

Rp, I am an orthodox Muslim in my understanding of Islamic creed and methodology.

Thanks for correcting your post regarding your wording about 'seperation of church and state' as well.

The constitution is a secular document that is the basis for all American law. The founding fathers wanted to protect Americans from what the reasons that the 'Pilgrims" departed from England in the 1600's for.

But the 1s amendment is the issue here. Along with the possible implications that right has with the 5th, 6th and 14th amendments.

There is no such text in the constitution stating a seperation of church and state. That was actually in a letter Thomas Jefferson wrote to someone.

The first amendment of the constitution states that "congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion."

Timtam what are you on about dude?

They call it the American dream because you have to be asleep to see it... --George Carlin

By anonymous• 20 Dec 2008 07:03
anonymous

Respectfully

Which Islamic teachings do you follow, the Sunni or Shiate teachings?

Do you agree with the separation between church and the state?

Personally,

I don't follow no religion or church either way you wish to call it.

i don't let the ugly things of the state and federal governments get in my way of accomplishing and fulfilling my life as I wish.

Yet, Our government is far from perfect in many areas.

As long I could remember; I could and still drink my 'Cuba libre' drink (Bacardi and coke) under the sun as a free man.

By a merry can muslim• 20 Dec 2008 06:00
a merry can muslim

Oh Scarlett my sweet surrogate mother,

While not admitting to your charge of being a negative person, walk a mile in my shoes and understand where I picked up the dirt stuck to the soul of my boots.

Trust me or not. I have EVERY reason to be angrier and harsher than you seem to believe I am for what I have been put through from "my government"....

Funny thing is my real mother is as patriotic as they come. By actions and not words either (This is not an insult to you surrogate mother.) and she has no illusions of my frustrations due to the circumstances I have lived through since I joined the military some 10 years ago.

I expct better from America... And I always will...

They call it the American dream because you have to be asleep to see it... --George Carlin

By Scarlett• 20 Dec 2008 04:19
Scarlett

I'm sure he is a much nicer person in real life than he appears on here..but I don't ever intend to find out since I find his postings to be quite negative and I refuse to put myself around extremely negative people.

As far as joining the military for benefits...trust me, they do...medical, especially. Like you, however, I have serious issues with going into it due to the killing/being killed aspect.

I come from a very long line of military relatives...All 7 of my uncles served in WWII, one of whom spent time in a concentration camp when captured by the German army. My dad served in the Korean crisis...so I do have a lot of respect for military personnel who go into it for the right reasons...patriotism.

Grant me the senility to forget the people I never liked,the good fortune to run into the ones I do,and the eyesight to tell the difference.

By a merry can muslim• 20 Dec 2008 00:30
a merry can muslim

I am very familiar with the case of Goldman v. Weinberger.

And I personally feel it is a special situation because of the military aspect. As Judge Renquist wrote in his majority opinion,

"The Court asserts that deference should be given to the professional judgment of military authorities. These officials are not constitutionally required to abandon their professional judgment. The military is a "specialized society separate from civilian society" and "to accomplish its mission the military must foster instinctive obedience, unity, commitment, and esprit de corps." Rather than give priority to their own beliefs, individuals in the military are to subordinate their own desires to the needs of the service. One of the ways the military creates this cohesiveness is by requiring servicemen to maintain uniform visibility. The First Amendment does not require the military to accommodate all religious views, nor does it preclude the uniform regulation."

With that being said Muslim Air Force members were allowed by the base commander on Ramstein AB in Germany to wear skullcaps in uniform (as were Jews allowed to wear their skullcaps) indoors. I do not remember if they could outdoors. Maybe Abu remembers.

Judge Brennan wrote in his dissenting opinion,

"In ruling that the paramount interests of the Air Force override Dr. Goldman's free exercise claim, the Court overlooks the sincere and serious nature of his constitutional claim. It suggests that the desirability of certain dress regulations, rather than a First Amendment right, is at issue. The Court declares that in selecting dress regulations, "military officials . . . are under no constitutional mandate to abandon their considered professional judgment." If Dr. Goldman wanted to wear a hat to keep his head warm or to cover a bald spot I would join the majority. Mere personal preferences in dress are not constitutionally protected. The First Amendment, however, restrains the Government's ability to prevent an Orthodox Jewish serviceman from, or punish him for, wearing a yarmulke.

As for her wearing a hijab being a credible threat then this is ignorance at its utmost caliber. It is more than likely a result of the fear-mongering that has reached its peak over the past 8 years.

How many Muslim women wearing hijab divided by the amount of cases in the WORLD where a woman used her head covering to hide a weapon or explosive device (to make SOME happy) equals paranoia.... Or M/C=P

They call it the American dream because you have to be asleep to see it... --George Carlin

By sag• 19 Dec 2008 23:26
sag

Well, I think, Islam is not all about scarf and beard..

By tallg• 19 Dec 2008 21:42
tallg

I've heard of similar issues and cases when someone insists on wearing, for example, a turban for religious reasons, but their job requires them to wear a hard hat. Now despite all the cases you see around Doha, a hard hat is pretty useless if you're wearing something underneath it. Tricky situation.

By Brutus74• 19 Dec 2008 20:10
Brutus74

A Merry Can Muslim. I don't have a GA state ruling specific to this, but I will introduce a couple that are similar. Before I introduce them, I'd like to say: I have a basic understanding of the Free Exercise Clause and it's relation to religion, which is a private practice. Private being the operative word.

Goldman v. Weinberger, 1986

Basically a Jewish servicemember wanted to wear his religious headpiece and the Air Force denied him because it did not conform to military standards. The judgement ruled in the AF's favor. Yes. Yes. This is completely different, in that the ruling sided with the AF because the court felt that military uniformity took precedence over religious clothing. Different, but a nice look at how this all works. Also nice to see that you are not guaranteed the right to wear what you want...but the military's role was significant in this case, I admit.

I'm not a lawyer. I haven't ever really studied law. But I remember the Free Excercise Clause. I tried to find something that was close and this was about as good as I could get.

I found something else, that many will find interesting on the DOJ website:

http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/religdisc/musk_memo.php

Basically, a student was found in violation of a school dress code- she wore a hijab. The court found in favor of the student because (basically) "Nashala's practice of wearing a hijab is akin to pure speech and therefore is entitled to the highest protection." Note this is a debate about speech and it's relationship with religion...not a perfect match but...

Is this different than a women entering into a courtroom. Possibly. Not that I can see, necessarily, but I would like to know the circumstances. I'm not sure if she denied the guard the opportunity to search her hijab. If so, the guard may have felt that presented a possible threat to public safety...

I stand by everything I have said: This woman my have her day in court and she may win. The court has EVERY right to disallow her to enter if she does not conform to a rule because of her religion.

On A Merry Can Muslim. You are an excellent writer and clearly have a lot of knowledge. I had to do some research to find some of this, but you may know much of this by heart. But your power with words and your skill with debate shouldn't steer you from the purpose of your post, which wasn't to inflame fellow Americans, but merely to show why you are frustrated with our alleged intolerance. Attack the debate, not the debater.

Hopefully I have helped you with your goal. Many Americans reading this thread may not know about the two cases I mentioned...some may not know about the Free Exercise Clause and it's importance- I'm not sure I completely understand it all, yet. With your knowledge, you could have coached many of us through it, but instead you created deep divisions.

I look forward to more of your posts and your ideas. Thanks for your patience!

By a merry can muslim• 19 Dec 2008 18:41
a merry can muslim

Okay, I will try to combat some flawed ideas and use my sturdy plunger to attempt to unclog a few mental blockages...

Brutus, I appreatiate you and your contribution to the thread. Both of us being in the same age bracket and you not having a civics or a half year class dedicated to nothing except the methodology of government in the US on all levels tells me perhaps it is a regional thing.

None the less, I really appreatiate a well thought out and constructed argument that makes me take my time to respond.

I agree with you that we are laws are 'based' off the constitution. It is the root or foundation for all our laws. AND if a law anywhere in the nation goes against the principles (whether due to interpretation or not) then an individual obviously has the right to recourse.

BUT Brutus what is your proof for your statement, "but it does not guarantee that we can practice our religious mandates in public (read: federal or state) areas."?

Do you know of a supreme court ruling backing this statement up?

Alexa, I fail to see where I am 'picking at my country'. My original comment was only the headline of the thread. And of course I have made subsequent comments regarding the clear unconstitutionality of this judge's opinion to be able to prevent anyone wearing a religious item on their head to be prevented from entering his court room.

While then having her brought forth to his court room to try her for 'contempt of court'. Seems this judge doesn't want to let her headscarf prevent her from her 14th amendment right of due process.

As I said previously I guess I expect better from America than my compatriots here on QL. But many of them seem to have drank the gov't's Kool-aid regarding fear mongering.

CynBOB, please read my response to Uncle Sam again please. I never said the term doesn't exist. Indeed I have heard of the names you referred to. What I did say was that I have NEVER heard a person in the American military use this phrase when referring to themselves or others in the military.

I did try to relocate back to the States after I finished my contract in the military. I was offered a very well paying job in my hometown area of Boston and came very close to accepting it. But I realized after being in the US for a couple of weeks that I just did not fit. It didn't seem to be the country I grew up in anymore. And I full well admit that maybe this would not be the case if the Supreme Court decided that G.W. Bush should be the president. Only if....

Tamumech, you seem to be very close minded and ignorant. Maybe if we met I would feel different about that though. So let me see if I understand this... Because I am upset that a judge seems to think he can take away a woman's civil rights I am a cry baby? Your mentality seems to be part and parcel with 1935 Germany.

What I have I written that trashed America in this thread? In your world fighting for or standing up for the constitution of US is stirring up hatred is it??

The CO2 that leaves your lips is more valuable to this earth than the drivel that you spew.

RP, I agree with you that he does... even though I find it incorrect for him to do so in ALL cases. With that being said he as a servant of the government cannot dictate religious items of clothing.

Scarlett my sweet surrogate mother, I am still waiting for my new citizenship to come through... and awaiting for your generous offer to pay for it to come though too... =)

But Scarlett I have no desire for anyone to hate America. All I desire is for people's individual rights to be respected by others. And for the most part (other than harassment and verbal abuse on occasions by vile and ignorant individuals) this is the case in America. But when there is a case like this one where in fact has happened is a judge has made people of a certain religious way of life to choose between the 14th amendment and their 1st amendment rights.

As well this could have implications towards the 5th and 6th amendments as well.

And that really goads me.

If I really hated America I wouldn't care about it. Look to threads I do not post, which is the far majority of them, it is because they are of no interest to me. It is because I truly believe the constitution of America is the best secular document that has been created to govern a secular nation and take issue with the erosion of ciivl liberties and rights of any individual, whether friend or foe.

NotFromHere, indeed I have not abandoned America. I simply do not see it as an ideal place to live nor raise my children.

I have been active in building bridges with Americans working in and for the American military for about 6 years or so now. I was employed to give seminars on Muslims and Islam by the chaplaincy service in Germany to troops deploying to the Middle East. Trust me bridges have been built and are continuing to be built through the efforts of myself, Abu American and others that remain in that community.

There are plenty of good stories and as Muslims we speak about them frequently. When a western non Muslim aides us, comes to our defense or acts in a way contrary perhaps to what we have cynically come to expect we do talk about it. And believe me Qataris do as well.

Do not think that because the stories are not shred with yourself that they do not exist.

They call it the American dream because you have to be asleep to see it... --George Carlin

By anonymous• 19 Dec 2008 16:15
anonymous

Abuamerican

The US military is just a job and a way of life as much is your religion or your current life style. The difference is that the ones who join the military gave their civil rights to protect and defend civilians like yourself. So, enjoy your rights and freedoms Mr. Civilian.

I got a Questions for you.

1-Did you render your federal tax returns every year? Is your duty as an American citizen and you are not exempt from it. Unless your believes inhibits you from your responsibilities.

2 Do you return back to America every 365 days? You are supposed to do that.

Just because you work for someone overseas and your salary it is foreign currency, it does not constitute neglecting your Federal Tax returns.

Let me give you a hint of advice, Mr. Abuamerican

Any male, US CITIZEN at the age of 18 are mandated by federal law to be register into the selective service registrar.

Here is another one, that is strongly recommended that you register your name and passport with the US embassy.

Respectfully, i believe you being living and working overseas too long and lost your touch of reality.

Red_Pope

Single Guy Holiday

Q: If mothers have Mother's Day and fathers have Father's Day, what do single guys have?

A: Palm Sunday.

By anonymous• 19 Dec 2008 08:47
anonymous

i don't need extra Islam education in the USA, I'm getting already a hell of an education here in Doha, in what Islam is all about. i like the system the way it is back at home already. Don't need someone telling me religiously what to do or not to do because Islam says.

A local car last night was carrying a bunch of flags of Qatar, he pull up side by side to my car in the Ramada Intersection, I wave them a Qatari flag with the Obama poster together, they were giving me more thumbs up for what I could count for.

Single Guy Holiday

Q: If mothers have Mother's Day and fathers have Father's Day, what do single guys have?

A: Palm Sunday.

By anonymous• 19 Dec 2008 04:37
anonymous

While driving around my hometown today (in California), I noticed 2 different cars displaying 2 different Islamic bumper stickers.

Apparently it's safe to display these without fear of any kind of violence or other repercussions.

In Qatar, I won't put an American flag on my car, and I removed a cross-shaped symbol from a University sticker before placing it on my car.

By anonymous• 19 Dec 2008 04:28
Rating: 2/5
anonymous

that you choose to simply pack up your marbles and leave because things in your country don't always go the way you'd like.

As an American Muslim,you are in a unique position to build bridges but you choose to go off to another country and throw stones.

It's America. It's a democracy. Far from perfect, but yes it works. But it only works because the people make it work.

In the Middle East, we hear so many stories of how Muslims in America are discriminated against, blah, blah, blah, but when do we ever hear the stories about the GOOD experiences, and about the Muslims who would not choose to live anywhere else, because of the freedoms they enjoy in the US?

This headscarf issue is one of cultural/religious sensitivity and awareness.

Muslims in America are the ones who should be speaking out and educating the American public regarding issues like this.

If you ask me, it's time for American Muslims to get their act together, find a voice, or rather CREATE a voice, stand up, and say "THIS is who we are".

It will take time and effort, but people's views can change if they are exposed to views other than what they see on the news.

By Scarlett• 19 Dec 2008 02:57
Scarlett

As much respect as I have for the US military(and yes, I DO have many relatives in the military right now, serving in Iraq), I do find that the statement that they have MORE of a right to speak about America...wrong, totally wrong.

Many people who join the military, do so for their own personal reasons..many of which have absolutely NOTHING to do with how much they love their country...I find your comment completely silly. I know too many that just joined because they couldn't get a job, were in trouble with the law, for the benefits, etc... The fact that they HAD to serve when they got shipped out overseas can make that comment that they have more right to speak, laughable and completely irrevelant.

Abu...I know you and merry are friends..but how can you, in all honesty, sit and listen to that much hatred and drivel that comes from him constantly?

Merry...I've said it before...if you are so dang unhappy with America...just please, go ahead and get that other passport and then leave us alone...stop trying to make everyone else hate America also...we have enough of that as it is without your help. I would be willing to bet that not many people think you ever really even LIKED America...so why would we care WHY you don't want to return???

As far as the woman whining about not being able to wear her head covering..its for the safety of everyone concerned. Yes, it would have been better to check her privately, but even that would probably have provoked an outcry..some folks are just looking for a reason to draw attention to themselves. Besides, which...if she is such a religious person..why then did she utter an expletive which caused her to be handcuffed? It must have been a pretty good one for that to happen...

Grant me the senility to forget the people I never liked,the good fortune to run into the ones I do,and the eyesight to tell the difference.

By anonymous• 19 Dec 2008 01:14
anonymous

Sorry buddy, but the judge has the final word when it comes to the dress code inside their court rooms.

i believe you are due for Jury duty in GA.

Single Guy Holiday

Q: If mothers have Mother's Day and fathers have Father's Day, what do single guys have?

A: Palm Sunday.

By lostindoha• 18 Dec 2008 22:09
lostindoha

this is a waste of time.

life is not a destination, it always had been & always will be a journey.....

By tamumech• 18 Dec 2008 21:37
tamumech

abuamerican, i have a respect for the men and women in uniform just like anyone else. but what i dont have a respect for is someone b!tching and moaning like a little girl behind a computer screen and stirring up hatred towards the u.s. in an internet forum. there are plenty of sods that do that already. if merry can is a true servant of america like the men and women in uniform then he wouldn't be posting this garbage and wasting his time here... because this doesn't do sh!t for anyone.

By cynbob• 18 Dec 2008 20:27
cynbob

Brutus, I'm with you: *DOUBLE SIGH* and I'm also on the deplorable list....I'm in good company!

Alexa: BRAVO! I thought the same thing. Why isn't Superman in the USA making things happen for the better?

And A "SAD" Can (You should change your name, you don't sound that "merry" to me)---you've never heard of GI Joe? How about GI Jane?

By Brutus74• 18 Dec 2008 19:31
Brutus74

The constitution is, of course, vital to our American system. But just as vital are our legislative branches of federal and state government which INTERPRET the constitution. We are a country of laws BASED on the constitution.

Again, her dress is mandated by her religion. Why does that matter to anyone else in America? If I go to her home or mosque, then I understand. Of course, we have civil liberties that grant us rights, but it does not guarantee that we can practice our religious mandates in public (read: federal or state) areas. Some religions believe in corporeal punishment of their children, but many states have ruled against this activity (in private and public) although corporeal punishment is not "banned" in the U.S. Just because you think it's ok to spank your child, does not mean that it's legal in your state.

Please see how the Amish are affected by laws in America- especially child labor laws. But also see how they are not required to follow certain laws (federal and state) because they infringe upon their religious freedoms, ie, education.

By tallg• 18 Dec 2008 19:14
tallg

Agreed, the news article title is misleading and sensationalist. No surprise there.

As I've already said, I believe the 1st amendment to the constitution should trump everything else, otherwise everything America stands for is worthless. Wearing the head scarf is a mandatory part of her religion. The key here is that it is MANDATORY, not just something that's ALLOWED by her religion, such as polygamy.

If they believe it was a security risk they should have just searched her privately, and none of this fuss would have occurred.

By Brutus74• 18 Dec 2008 18:21
Brutus74

I don't remember a "civics class" so I think I'm on your deplorable list. But here goes...

State legislatures have a right to interpret the laws and amendments of the constitution in cases just like this one. The amendment is broad in scope and does not cover every instance that may occur in society. Can you sacrifice animals in America for your religion? Maybe...it might depend on the state in which you live. Can you allow minors to partake of alcohol? Again, there may be states that allow the consumption of alcohol by federally-defined minors if it is in conjunction with a private religious ceremony.

It doesn't even come remotely near fascism that a court-appointed official would deny entry to someone wearing an (religious) article of clothing in a state or federal building- which doesn't recognize any particular religion- if that article of clothing is deemed to constitute a credible threat to public safety. It appears that this is the case, but I'm only guessing. If she was denied entry because she was a Muslim, this is clearly unconstitutional.

In America, the freedom to practice your religion is guaranteed, however that practice is considered private. There are no state-owned churches. Any church, mosque, or temple that you visit is a private holding. This is the separation of church and state.

But this is secondary to the fact that the title of this article is false and sensational. Again, not the title of this thread, the title of the article. Everyone should read the last portion of the article, which explains why she was arrested, and then decide if the title represents the facts.

The Last Sentence:

"When she turned to leave and uttered an expletive, Hall said a bailiff handcuffed her and took her before the judge."

The Title:

"Ga. judge jails Muslim woman over head scarf"

I know that you will argue this,AMerryCan, but judging from the statements you have made to other posters, you don't respect many peoples' opinion...

By a merry can muslim• 18 Dec 2008 18:15
a merry can muslim

Xena, your first sentence is correct. But BECAUSE her religion mandates that she cover her hair (whether other Muslim woman do or do not is irrelivant)and she chooses to obey that commandment then it BECOMES a matter of infringement.

It is illegal to have the beliefs that the Shee'ah have in KSA but you do not see them changing or leaving....

They call it the American dream because you have to be asleep to see it... --George Carlin

By Xena• 18 Dec 2008 18:09
Xena

in this instance, they lady wasn't being pulled out because she was muslim, but because her head was covered in a place that doesn't allow head coverings, it was not going against her rights of religion as according to the 1st Amemnedment.

And my reference to KSA and US, is

applicable, because I was refering to LAWS of the country - whether the countries are the same or not - they both have laws and its up to the citizens, no matter, caste, creed or religion, to adhere to them.

"if you don't like the heat... get out of the kitchen... but stop trying to fan the flames before you leave... it will burn you on the a** as you go through the doorway...." ME

 

visit www.qaws.org

By a merry can muslim• 18 Dec 2008 18:02
a merry can muslim

In fact I spoke with a buddy in the AF from GA and he told me that this county is nuts. He said he knows white people that have been arrested for being "too down"... =)

They call it the American dream because you have to be asleep to see it... --George Carlin

By a merry can muslim• 18 Dec 2008 18:00
a merry can muslim

RP, absolutely. But they cannot prevent someone from wearing religious dress. That goes above and beyond their provisional allowances within their court room.

They call it the American dream because you have to be asleep to see it... --George Carlin

By anonymous• 18 Dec 2008 17:58
anonymous

i Read the article in full, What the lady fail to understand the separation of government laws from the religious believes. it my sound a bit hypocritical, but in the state of Georgia or any court room in the USA, the judge has the final saying; when it comes to the proper attire. Either you like it or not, he is the boss.

I seen in a US consular office, one American get kick out and escort out the premises by the security officer, because he was wearing excessive baggy clothing.

i was wearing a long shirt with a tie and leather shoes.

Some judges are not as liberal or tolerant as others.

i did ask the same question to my brother an ex-minor court judge and he did affirm that American judges have that kind of power in the court rooms of America to maintain neutrality.

Q: If mothers have Mother's Day and fathers have Father's Day, what do single guys have?

A: Palm Sunday.

By tinkerbelle• 18 Dec 2008 17:57
tinkerbelle

dream. I am awake, but it's good when I am sleeping as well.

By tinkerbelle• 18 Dec 2008 17:51
tinkerbelle

camel.

As for this topic, the law is the law. And btw, I learned that as a child in the states.

By a merry can muslim• 18 Dec 2008 17:50
a merry can muslim

Again Xena,

America is not KSA and KSA is not America so your refernce does not hold water.

The 1st amendment to the constitution says that, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

So a local or state law cannot overstep these boundaries because the constitution is the root and foundation of all laws for the land.

By a state or federal judge, who is employed by the government, preventing a woman from the "free exercise" of her religion is unconstitutional but could be considered as a precedent for further cases. In fact it stinks of fascism.

They call it the American dream because you have to be asleep to see it... --George Carlin

By a merry can muslim• 18 Dec 2008 17:49
a merry can muslim

Timtam, go read the 1st amendment. THAT IS THE LAW... And it gives her the right to freely practice her religion without governmental interference...

They call it the American dream because you have to be asleep to see it... --George Carlin

By auscharlie• 18 Dec 2008 17:43
auscharlie

surely we must have moved on to reason number 134 by now LOL

By Xena• 18 Dec 2008 17:37
Xena

fact of the matter - when in a country, you follow the laws of that country, no matter what your religion... ie... Courts of Law in the US don't allow any kind of head dress onto their premises - it has to do with security.

It would be the same as Christian females entering Saudi Arabia and being forced to wear the Abaya and Niqab - its the law of the country that women cover up - whether you are Muslim or not.

"if you don't like the heat... get out of the kitchen... but stop trying to fan the flames before you leave... it will burn you on the a** as you go through the doorway...." ME

 

visit www.qaws.org

By anonymous• 18 Dec 2008 17:37
anonymous

calm down guys. It's just a discussion.

By a merry can muslim• 18 Dec 2008 17:36
a merry can muslim

I am really not shocked at some of the ignorant comments made by non-westerners in this thread as I feel confident enough (especially after their comments here) that they have no idea what the content (let alone the intent) of the Declaration of Independence is nor the 'Bill of Rights' written within the constitution that I had to swear to uphold and protect against any enemies foreign or domestic.

Words (from the Declaration of Independence and the Bill or Rights) that I had to memorize in civics class in high school and was fortunate enough to have a teacher who's passion for them rubbed off on me.

But what I have read on here from some Americans is absolutely deplorable. People who must have not been as fortunate to have a good civics teacher or perhaps were to high and waiting for the lunch bell to pay any attention.

If there REALLY was a list... You guys would be number 1!!

TallG, what Abu is saying is an old school belief. It was in the same boat along with the idea that the president should have military experience.

In fact to most of the people who questioned my post then go back and re-read the entire thread. You are bringing up issues already dealt with earlier.

I chose the headline I did because I am sarcastic and cynical. And as headlines go they are supposed to attract people to read the article... And that was my main intent....

They call it the American dream because you have to be asleep to see it... --George Carlin

By a merry can muslim• 18 Dec 2008 17:35
a merry can muslim

Sadiq... Well there is the differnce between me and you. I do not see a need to change or amend the constitution. I believe it is the best secular document any government has. James Madison struck the perfect balance to me between federal and state.

My problem is usually with the jerks who do not adhere to the constitution or even seek to be subversive to it.

I must have misunderstood your reference to a shredder and my passport, huh?

They call it the American dream because you have to be asleep to see it... --George Carlin

By Sadiq• 18 Dec 2008 17:31
Sadiq

My dad was married to his sister.

By tinkerbelle• 18 Dec 2008 17:27
tinkerbelle

lighten up.... or should i ask did MR.P's comment hit a personal nerve with you?

By Sadiq• 18 Dec 2008 17:18
Sadiq

I don't wear rose glasses, and yes I love my country an I'm pretty sure I have sacrificed more than most and I doubt I am done yet. 4 years or whatever served does not mean you can trash the place as you almost always do. The more I listen to people like you the more I realize why other people see us a vulnerable and try and tear us down from within. I never said like it or leave I prefer to try and change it constitutionally. You appear to have already left. All I can say is vaya con Dios or Allah.

Jazak Allah khair.

By Sadiq• 18 Dec 2008 17:09
Sadiq

I was being facetious and making light about your reference to "inbreeding"

By a merry can muslim• 18 Dec 2008 17:07
a merry can muslim

Brutus, he referred to Abu American not myself. And I fail to see where he was supporting my or Abu's opinion. His words are, "I think some of your comments are out there. total BS"

Please advise...

They call it the American dream because you have to be asleep to see it... --George Carlin

By Brutus74• 18 Dec 2008 17:01
Brutus74

If anything, I think UncleSam was supporting your opinion, AMerryCan. I hesitate in posting, because I don't want to get blasted...

By a merry can muslim• 18 Dec 2008 16:48
a merry can muslim

Really Uncle Sam?

See, I have never heard anybody in the military refer to themselves as a "GI". EVER.....

Maybe you care to explain what is "total BS" instead of just leaving a simplistic comment?

Is that beyond your intellectual scope?

They call it the American dream because you have to be asleep to see it... --George Carlin

By UncleSam• 18 Dec 2008 16:40
UncleSam

AbuAmerican I am a GI and I think some of your comments are out there. total BS

By a merry can muslim• 18 Dec 2008 16:23
a merry can muslim

Sadiq you my friend are an absolute tool.

I criticize my country because I expect better from it and believe that it can achieve that.

What kind of mentality one must have to possess the 'love it or leave it' methodology is beyond me...

Perhaps your rose tinted glasses should be replaced...

They call it the American dream because you have to be asleep to see it... --George Carlin

By Eve• 18 Dec 2008 16:20
Eve

Its funny but not funny in the old days Catholics covered their head with a lacy veil for Church, would they have treated a Catholic the same? In the States I am sure its more a matter of the fact she is Muslim and they stand out. At airports you see people looking at them differently and treating them differently. They did a TV show based on just this racism that is occuring. Also, many Muslims in America are not from Arab countries thus the name or converts!

By anonymous• 18 Dec 2008 16:13
anonymous

"A man may fight for many things.His country,his friends,his principles,the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child.

But personally,I'd mud wrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock and a sackful of porn."

Blackadder.

By Sadiq• 18 Dec 2008 16:06
Sadiq

she gets searched and then screams about being discriminated against because no other woman is being searched. As far as you vets and civil servants go if you think the US is tough on you then I have a shredder for your passport. You obviously need to emigrate to the countries that treat you "better" whatever that means.

Mr Paul... son when ya gonna come home?

By Brutus74• 18 Dec 2008 15:46
Brutus74

I think you have it.

By tallg• 18 Dec 2008 15:39
tallg

Every airport I've ever been in has female security personal for searching women, and male for men. I'm sure a court would be the same. I don't see what special considerations there'd have to be for religion.

By Brutus74• 18 Dec 2008 15:29
Brutus74

There are always cultural and religious sensitivities that should be taken into account, especially considering that the hypothetical security female position would be created specifically to address Muslims. But maybe I'm wrong.

By anonymous• 18 Dec 2008 14:58
anonymous

lol

By tallg• 18 Dec 2008 14:54
tallg

Why do you need someone properly trained to search a Muslim? I thought the only requirement was to have a female searching a female and a male searching a male.

By Brutus74• 18 Dec 2008 14:48
Brutus74

Did anyone else notice that the reason she was handcuffed was because what she said, her "expletive." Didn't appear to have anything to do with her scarf.

The title of the article is a bit sensational...

By Brutus74• 18 Dec 2008 14:36
Brutus74

I think that's what you will see happen. But that's not simple. Someone made a point earlier in this post, Tallg, that is valid. The government will have to provide women that are trained on how to properly search a Muslim. That means money. What if other religions have similar requirements? Is there a compromise that can be made? Doesn't this mean tax payer's money?

As a counter to AmerryCan Muslim's sarcastic title: this is the reason I love America; because we will pursue that. We'll spend the money not only to investigate whether civil liberties have been violated, but also to accomodate, if possible, to include hiring and training people to assist.

By anonymous• 18 Dec 2008 14:19
anonymous

I honestly believe the title of this post came off too strong. There is no perfect place as Alexa said before. There are no perfect people as well. Not many decades back the states suffered racism down to a skin color. Nowadays things are very much different. The immense leaps that the west undertook were not because people didn’t like what they saw and decided to flee. The leaps were the result of people’s will, sacrifices and organized work. As for the laws and how to improve the laws it’s up to the Americans, all the Americans to work together to make it better.

By tallg• 18 Dec 2008 14:12
tallg

At the end of the day, the simple solution is as Britexpat and Supremebeing said - simply do a private search to check she isn't concealing anything under the headscarf.

By alfa Q• 18 Dec 2008 14:09
alfa Q

I would love to visit US again & again because it is a great country.

By anonymous• 18 Dec 2008 14:08
anonymous

I agree with tallg, plus laws are evolving as we speak. A private check up or a metal detector can do the trick. Plus why would it be possible for someone to hide a weapon in a head scarf and not under their shirts, or in their pants, or perhaps in a bra or under an underwear or inside a body orifice. What’s next strip naked to get inside a court of law?

By Brutus74• 18 Dec 2008 14:07
Rating: 2/5
Brutus74

But only true in part. You are not disallowed from practicing any religion as long as it doesn't violate US laws or others' civil liberties. It is not legal to "practice" one's faith in a courtroom- or any federal or state building. Of course, there are always exceptions, such as allowing Muslims the ability to pray throughout their day. I'm sure you all see the ongoing debate in the US concerning the Ten Commandments and displays of Christmas... And of course, we still swear on Bibles when sworn into public office or in courtrooms.

By alfa Q• 18 Dec 2008 14:01
alfa Q

I was in USA in August 2008 and found that Atlanta was little bit different. Alleast two supermarkets refused to sell beer because it was sunday. While beer is served free even on sunday at sea world in orlando in florida.

By alfa Q• 18 Dec 2008 14:01
alfa Q

I was in USA in August 2008 and found that Atlanta was little bit different. Alleast two supermarkets refused to sell beer because it was sunday. While beer is served free even on sunday at sea world in orlando in florida.

By anonymous• 18 Dec 2008 13:57
anonymous

Exactly tallg, chapeaux for you

By anonymous• 18 Dec 2008 13:57
anonymous

Some people didn't simply migrate there. Some people are simply from there and their ancestors were there since the declaration of independence. The states is multi cultural, and the diversity in it is what makes it great.

By nadt• 18 Dec 2008 13:51
nadt

well said tallg..

By tallg• 18 Dec 2008 13:50
tallg

But one of the fundamental laws/principles of the country is that people shouldn't be obstructed from practising their religion (regardless of where they are - religious people don't just follow their religion when they're in a church, mosque etc!).

That's one of the things that makes America the country it is.

By tallg• 18 Dec 2008 13:45
tallg

Thanks for clarifying faith_zan.

By Brutus74• 18 Dec 2008 13:44
Brutus74

As you said, my analogy holds if muslims don't have to wear a headscarf. I have read that even Muslim scholars argue on whether or not this is a requirement by Islam, so I won't even try to approach that. But I see your point.

Let me put it another way. She's not entering a religious place. In other words, the courtroom did not require her to wear a head scarf, her religion does. My belief is that she should have to respect the law. That doesn't mean she doesn't have a civil liberties case.

This isn't about fashion or oppression.

By heero_yuy2• 18 Dec 2008 13:40
heero_yuy2

The 'principle' of wearing a veil or a head scarf on a religious woman, that is.

"Everything in this book may be wrong." Illusions: The Adventures of The Reluctant Messiah by Richard Bach

By anonymous• 18 Dec 2008 13:38
anonymous

Veil is optional but headscarf is not but still there are muslim ladies who dont wear it, every one will conduct their religion rules at their own pace.

By nadt• 18 Dec 2008 13:33
nadt

your right tallg, they are two different things. I always find it funny how much fuss a head scarf creates. if you wear it around your neck, then its classy, if around your head, your oppressed or hiding a wepeon...

I also wonder if a nun went to court if this wouldve been an issue too, who knows....

By tallg• 18 Dec 2008 13:33
tallg

Winn - firstly, I don't think we know if she emigrated to the US. She could have been born there. But even so, if someone emigrates to a country where people are supposed to be free to practise their religion without hindrance then they wouldn't expect to be asked to remove their headscarf, would they?

By tallg• 18 Dec 2008 13:28
tallg

We're not talking about a veil here. It's a headscarf. And I don't think a veil is required by Islam anyway.

Brutus - your analogy doesn't hold. Polygamy is allowed by Islam, but isn't a requirement. Wearing a headscarf is a requirement (that's my understand - someone please correct me if I'm wrong).

By nadt• 18 Dec 2008 13:28
nadt

No heero, thats not how it works, as i said for security reasons, they have a right to search her privately and if the search is clear, then theres no problem really. Both parties are happy...

By Winn• 18 Dec 2008 13:25
Winn

Been hearing sentences like "the rights of the individual must be respected." I agree...but whatever happened to the individual's responsibility to follow the laws and culture of the land?

Still wondering WhyTF people migrate to another culture when they know that their ways are different and then go there and start whining!!

By heero_yuy2• 18 Dec 2008 13:22
heero_yuy2

That maybe the woman can remove her veil once in a while just for the sake of the courtroom attendance. It never hurts, eh?

"Everything in this book may be wrong." Illusions: The Adventures of The Reluctant Messiah by Richard Bach

By nadt• 18 Dec 2008 13:20
nadt

heero how hard is it for you to understand . Some muslims practice their religious requirements others dont simple really, so when you come up with comments like the above, makes me really wonder about you..

By heero_yuy2• 18 Dec 2008 13:17
heero_yuy2

"Everything in this book may be wrong." Illusions: The Adventures of The Reluctant Messiah by Richard Bach

By anonymous• 18 Dec 2008 13:08
anonymous

Virgin Mari weared a head scarf (or so we know form the statues)....which means covering the hair is an old thing to do and wasnt ment for muslims only, what happend is that some nations moved on and prefered to let it go but in islam it is important although there are some muslim ladies who dont wear it because they chose not to and it doesnt make them less muslims it is just not the right time for them or whetever they think is good for them...

By Brutus74• 18 Dec 2008 12:49
Brutus74

Should the United States also allow polygamy? If a man married to more than one woman enters the United States, is the United States violating his right to practice his religion? Isn't that man breaking the law of the land? Ask members of radical sects of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, who claim to be Christians.

The Muslim mentioned in this article is going about it the way it should be done, I think. She has called attention to something she feels violates her civil liberties and perhaps the court will rule in her favor. I find it ironic though, that she refused to take off her hijab, but allegedly "...uttered an expletive." :P

Veterans. Servicemembers (should) understand that they have no more rights than anyone else in expressing their opinions. In fact, their service is to protect that freedom. Of course, they have a voice, but even that is limited by military law.

The law in the US shouldn't recognize this young woman as a Muslim. She is a citizen that was wearing an article of clothing that could potentially conceal a weapon. That's all there is to it. I agree that a nun's habit should be viewed with exactly the same prejudice.

By nadt• 18 Dec 2008 12:37
nadt

thats the point tallg, you cannot take the veil on and off as you please, i dont know why some people dont seem to get that and insist on it can be done. The best solution wouldve been to do a private search prior to entering court...

By tallg• 18 Dec 2008 12:34
tallg

But isn't wearing headscarf a religious requirement for Muslim women? In which case it is a religious issue, because by asking her to remove it the government is preventing her from practising her religion.

You solution of searching her in a private room would seem to be the sensible thing to do.

By britexpat• 18 Dec 2008 12:28
britexpat

You still misunderstand.. This issue has nothing to do with religion...It's about the basic rights of the individual - whether black, white, pink, brown, Muslim, Christian, Athiest, hindu, Jew etc ..

By tallg• 18 Dec 2008 12:21
tallg

Abu - Don't get me wrong, amerrycan has every right to voice his beliefs and good on him for doing so. But I don't think that just because he chose to join the army it means he has more right to do so than someone else who has served their country, albeit it served in a different way. They've earnt the right as much as anyone else.

By tallg• 18 Dec 2008 12:18
tallg

timtan - But as amerrycan said, the rule is that the US "is a secular country that prohibits government intervention in ruling against a person practicing their religion."

By tallg• 18 Dec 2008 11:53
tallg

Why are war veterans entitled to voice their opinion more than anyone else?

Anyone who works for and contributes to a country has a right to voice their opinions, whether they went to war, delivered the mail, swept the streets, built sky scrapers, etc, etc, so on and so forth.

By anonymous• 18 Dec 2008 11:44
anonymous

Although the 1st ammendment is about giving the freedom of expression, speech and religion...but then USA is not a muslim country and they dont have to implement islamic rules, I am a muslim and I have been wearing hijab for 5 years now and very proud of it, but if i decided to live in a non islamic country I have to obey their rules if that says removing my headscarf in the court, well, I personnaly will not do it, therefore I shouldnt live in a non muslim country without taking the 'whole package' with it. So my opinion as a muslim if USA cannot give me the right to wear my headscarf any were then I will not live there, and then it is not only the USA also France, they dont allow hijab in schools even....

As for the names, islam is not about your name, u can be named whatever and still be a muslim, and it really hurts that terrorist are doing their acts under the name of Islam giving the idea to the world that islam is a religeoun of terrorisim, which not true, and what is more surprising is that there are alot of ppl who lives in islamic countries like qatar and they still have the idea that islam is a bad thing to be, ppl just go out and look around and ask about the truth keep an open mind.

A nun can wear a headscarf and she can still be a nun, but a female wearing hijab.....can be a terrorist...

What else to say.....islam will always be looked at as a relegion of terrorism and that picture will not be replaced with the truth unliss we all muslims do something about it and the rest of the world keeps an open mind to know the true picture of islam, and neither are happening.

the other thing that non muslims dont know about is that alot of ppl can be called muslims because they were born in a muslim family were in reality there is nothing islamic about them. Beeing called a muslim is one thing and beeing a muslim is another and islam is a religion for all regardless color, height, weight and nationality.

By britexpat• 18 Dec 2008 11:29
britexpat

You are right. Veterans, who have risked their lives for their country DO have a right to voice their opinions.

This is the crux of the matter.. In a civilzed and democratic society, the rights of the individual should be paramount and the right to voice opinion against their leader(s) protected. This does not mean that anarchy should be allowed.

Whether this lady is Muslim is irrelivant. I would say the same, if the rights of a Sikh, Jew or even RP wearing a Ten Gallon hat were impinged.

By Dracula• 18 Dec 2008 11:22
Dracula

By Eagley• 18 Dec 2008 11:21
Eagley

britexpat - your mouse was trying to tell you, "give me liberty or give me death"!!!!!

*****************************************

Don't want no drama,

No, no drama, no, no, no, no drama

By yoda• 18 Dec 2008 11:06
yoda

LOL, i just could not resist laughing at your comment.

By britexpat• 18 Dec 2008 10:47
britexpat

Damn.. You may have a point..

There was a lot of loud banging on the walls this morning... I thought they were joining in, but, then quiet.....

Come to think of it... The mouse in the kitchen came out and threw itself on the rat trap...

Good morning, good morning

Good morrrrrrrrrrrrrrning to you.

By Eagley• 18 Dec 2008 10:29
Eagley

britexpat, I thought you were singing to inspire your neighbours to move out. ;0)

*****************************************

Don't want no drama,

No, no drama, no, no, no, no drama

By anonymous• 18 Dec 2008 10:22
anonymous

Full of 'baccy chewing, fat, bud swilling rednecks, who serve no purpose in life except to shoot tin cans in their backyards and breed inbred mutant mullet wearing brats....:D

"A man may fight for many things.His country,his friends,his principles,the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child.

But personally,I'd mud wrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock and a sackful of porn."

Blackadder.

By britexpat• 18 Dec 2008 10:10
britexpat

Why do you think I'm singing ??????

It's to keep warm..

Good morning, good morning

Good morning to you.

Put a smile on your face,

It's a brand new day

:0)

By Eagley• 18 Dec 2008 10:06
Eagley

Good morning, britexpat!

I didn't sleep much.. now warming my toes in front of a heater. Man! This is bad .. first it was an oven when I landed here and now it's a fridge!!

/Yes, your PoV's noted :) ... and as above.

*****************************************

Don't want no drama,

No, no drama, no, no, no, no drama

By Eagley• 18 Dec 2008 10:01
Eagley

Civil liberties yes, we see that as well. Not focused only on the religious issue.

What about the right to life of the ordinary American? That is also a civil liberty, no?

Fine line but if you weigh it, her claim is not as compelling compared to the general public's right to life, no?

Your suggestion to conduct a search in private is good but a lot of time and effort and costs to have that in place - train personnel, ensure there is a lady officer present, etc, etc. And my point is as per my 1st post above.

Those rules are applicable for everyone which allows for ease of communication, execution and monitoring - necessary when the masses are huge. So US just has to ensure that they implement their rules fairly across the board. All nuns - off with their habit!!

...uh.. edit : all nuns off with their habit in court leh

*****************************************

Don't want no drama,

No, no drama, no, no, no, no drama

By britexpat• 18 Dec 2008 09:58
britexpat

Good morning, good morrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrning

Good morning to you.

As I said earlier, I am against terrorism and believe in government doing all it can for seurity..

However, IMHO, the rights of the individual must be respected.

The First ammendment is the basis of this...

By heero_yuy2• 18 Dec 2008 09:57
heero_yuy2

...a Muslim woman probably will not wear her head scarf anymore. Environmental influences. Unless one is stubborn enough...

"Everything in this book may be wrong." Illusions: The Adventures of The Reluctant Messiah by Richard Bach

By Eagley• 18 Dec 2008 09:51
Eagley

A Merry can muslim - "Amyl, please tell me how many Muslims woman wearing hijab have been the perps of any physical violence in an American court room?

How many Muslim woman wearing hijab have been caught hiding weapons in their headscarves?"

- You mean to suggest that the US should let their guard down and wait for something to happen (like Sept 11 and numerous other instances) and there is loss of innocent lives before they take action? You might be missing the woods for the trees. Some poor muslim women have been used as "perps of any physical violence", not yet in the US but elsewhere.

But having said that, since you're a military veteran, you might know better and your disillusionment with your country should be noted. They obviously are not managing their officers and troops well. Necessity for unquestioning obedience in emergency times/wars and enforcement by force but taking orders without question, raises questions which are, often times, not answered satisfactorily or at all. And therein lies the danger of loose canons, especially if they know too much detail.

Edit: Actually, come to think of it, that's why they don't reveal too much information, so that any individual or small group does not know enough to damage the entire organization.

*****************************************

Don't want no drama,

No, no drama, no, no, no, no drama

By britexpat• 18 Dec 2008 09:43
britexpat

I think if you read it again, you will see that it has nothing to do with religious intolerance, but civil liberties...

By heero_yuy2• 18 Dec 2008 09:42
heero_yuy2

Like what flanostu said:

it's their country, their rules, you live there, so abide by them.........simple.

Now compare Qatar and the US according to what flan said.

Which sounds better?

"Everything in this book may be wrong." Illusions: The Adventures of The Reluctant Messiah by Richard Bach

By anonymous• 18 Dec 2008 09:31
anonymous

Why most of Muslims like you......do have ONE SIDED MENTALITY?????????????? within a Muslim country like K.S.A. all women are forced to wear abaya.....& there are several other things which i don't wanna discuss.............Now you want to apply ISLAMIC RULES there in USA as well.....Please leave the world alone, everybody has right to live their lives.....don't make the life of people hell to accept your philosophy.

The way Muslim respect Islam & assume other religions wrong.....same applies on the followers of other religions as well......Learn to respect others

By Harry99• 18 Dec 2008 09:25
Harry99

How about listing the other 33 reasons..

By flanostu• 18 Dec 2008 09:24
flanostu

cynbob, i firmly believe in the FIOFO principle.....Fit In Or Fark Off :)

By cynbob• 18 Dec 2008 09:19
cynbob

A merry can muslim can't get it 'cause it's so easy, it's hard.

By flanostu• 18 Dec 2008 09:16
flanostu

it's their country, their rules, you live there, so abide by them.........simple.

By cynbob• 18 Dec 2008 09:05
cynbob

You're only on the #34th reason NOT to live in the USA...I bet you would find many more reasons TO live there, IF you really thought about it.

There is enough anti-American sentiment going around, so, good idea, dude--- just never go back....BA-BYE!!

By nigelreid• 18 Dec 2008 08:51
nigelreid

Actually, the judge followed procedure. I certainly hope she does not win this lawsuit through some liberal blundering desire to satisfy a religious minority group whose track record shows that they will not compromise on anything. Asking her to take off headgear is a required act in court for everyone and claiming victimisation is unconvincing when it applies to the entire population.

Belief in Religion is, in fact, the *ultimate* lifestyle choice, meaning he/she is choosing to behave that way. Religious worship is protected by the First Amendment, and guarantees freedom of belief. What this really means is that you are not required to be a Christian in the USA and can choose another belief, if you wish; it doesn't mean that you can choose to make a lifestyle choice and then demand that whatever you ask for will be granted - actually, if that's what you want, try the United Kingdom. They just can't give away their own heritage quickly enough.

If you are required to take off your headscarf or cloak or anything else for that matter to aid security, then you have to do it. Insisting on special screening in a private room beforehand smacks of a form of special pleading to me.

Th US is not an Islamic country, and long may it remain so, and does not entrench exceptions to the law as special protection and pleading for those who make certain lifestyle choices, to the detriment of those who do not.

It is way past time that people understood that and made alternative living arrangements if it doesn't suit them, like you have done A merry can muslim. And it's rather like we have to do in Qatar, actually, so all's perfectly fair, really.

By a merry can muslim• 18 Dec 2008 08:34
a merry can muslim

How nice Oryx.

Your comment would be relevant if it was legislated for your friend to wear this particular item.

Amyl, please tell me how many Muslims woman wearing hijab have been the perps of any physical violence in an American court room?

How many Muslim woman wearing hijab have been caught hiding weapons in their headscarves?

This conversation has gotten kinda silly....

They call it the American dream because you have to be asleep to see it... --George Carlin

By Oryx• 18 Dec 2008 08:25
Oryx

they made my friend take off his santa's hat in Palomas last night...

I am sure it will be in the paper ;)

i will telephone the Human Rights office here...

however we are not going to stop living in Qatar because of it!

By amyl• 18 Dec 2008 08:01
amyl

I am from the US and the thing here is ...........

there have been many many incidents occurring inside of courtrooms including shootings and killings- even of judges. This policy is a matter of safety. NOT RELIGION!

don't be so nieve to think that a person wouldn't use something like a scarf to hide a weapon of some sort to use against another. So just because she says she refuses to remove it becasue of her religion, doesn't mean in the US courts you wil be excused, there are no exceptions!!

You're only as happy as you set your mind to be!

By a merry can muslim• 18 Dec 2008 07:43
a merry can muslim

First off Tamumech I obviously think better and hope for more from America than you do. Indeed I do expect America to be better and I always will.

I full well understand the intricacies of American law and the procedures one has recourse to more than I care to reveal.

However, be that as it may, incidents like this one happening in modern day America reveals more about the lack of strength of the system than you seem to think it does of me.

If You, me and the majority of other Americans who can even tell you what the first amendment is can see that this is a blatant violation of what the writers intent was AS WELL as the intent of individuals who see it as a 'living document' then how can a judge not?

When I need your suggestions about what I should be doing or where I should be, I promise, I will ask for them.

But ask yourself this smokey; When I know more military veterans like myself (active duty as well, in fact)who have no desire to return to America because of its condition than I do who desire to live there... Is the problem me or America?

An injustice anywhere is an injustice everywhere....

BTW, there is no list you muppet.... It is called a sarcastic headline... Ask your school if they offer a basic journalism class... =)

They call it the American dream because you have to be asleep to see it... --George Carlin

By tallg• 18 Dec 2008 07:25
tallg

Sometimes I'm just lost for words - last time I checked anyone can be a Muslim. You don't have to have a certain type of name before they let you in!

By tamumech• 18 Dec 2008 06:00
Rating: 2/5
tamumech

a merry can muslim, if you are expecting ANY country to be completely void of incidents like this you will never find one. yes i agree that this woman's rights were violated, but that's why we have the supreme court, freedom of the press, interest groups, etc. there will always be a grey area in the law that causes controversy, and not everyone can always be satisfied.

this is why we have these systems in the first place. if you feel your rights have been violated you can appeal to a higher court. or, you can draw attention to the case through freedom of press and report to news agencies. or, report the incident to a muslim interest group that can lobby legislators to change the law. these are the same ways the the right to burn the cross was UPHELD, and Representative Ellison swore in on the Koran, etc...

if thats not enough for you merry can muslim, i suggest you stay in whatever country you are in, wasting away you life making pathetic lists of why you don't want to live anywhere else. don't worry, we wont miss you here

By Eagley• 18 Dec 2008 05:06
Eagley

"First Amendment" - allowing for freedom of expression, speech and religion - but security issue as extremist terrorists are stooping so low as to using women and children to do damage.

Carol2008's post - yes, why is it that when people speak of infringements to human rights in the ME, they're told that if they want to visit / stay / work there, they have to just follow the laws of the country or leave?

Shouldn't the same yardstick apply for those visiting / staying / working in the US? Why the double standards?

Britexpat's suggestion to search the lady in private and then allow her to wear her headscarf - I agree that this would be a good solution - but practically difficult to implement as US will have to go the extra mile to educate / train its personnel to execute that.

It can be done but will this be just a one sided action? I mean, are certain other countries going to reciprocate by being more open and less restrictive, which is an infringement of human rights to freedom? Fight for own rights but don't give rights to others? Arguably, it's the individual fighting for her rights in a foreign land while it's the home country collectively not giving rights to others... but individuals collectively make up the country, no? And question - is she a US citizen? Because then, she might have extra ammunition...

NB: Freedom not to the extent of those twats in Dubai who landed up in the news, of course. I'd say Qatar is quite moderate and fair and should be an example to those other countries.

Re: aka's post - A judge in MY also can and does decide whatever he/she allows as its his/her court room. UK also. For MY, yes, to some (even lawyers, but not me) being kicked out of court by the judge because of their attire. No one files infringement of human rights suits for getting kicked out of court on grounds of their attire. USA has many avenues to lodge complaints and sometimes, that gets abused. No doubt the reason for the many complaint avenues is due to its history but ... freedom has a price. Total liberty is anarchy, isn't it? Need proper checks and balances.

And yes to fairness - let all nuns remove their habit in court too. Why not? Rules applicable across the board. Ease of instruction/communication to personnel and execution.

*****************************************

Don't want no drama,

No, no drama, no, no, no, no drama

By Mandilulur• 18 Dec 2008 02:42
Mandilulur

Yes, Alexa and Merry Can, there are competing/conflicting rules and rights here. It will take a higher court to sort out whose claim is paramount. In this case, I am hoping for a victory for Ms Valentine. I don't believe a headscarf is a security issue (removing one's headgear may be more of an older courtroom law that's still on the books) and I truly wonder if the security guard wasn't expressing his own personal bias. Let us imagine if a nun were to testify in court, would she be asked to remove her veil? But I'm glad I'm part of a society that has a fair way to ultimately resolve these issues.

Mandi

By anonymous• 18 Dec 2008 00:38
anonymous

amerrycanmuslim......such niceties from one so pious......

By britexpat• 18 Dec 2008 00:25
britexpat

It's clear that our governments have used "security" as an excuse for implementing laws that are impinging on our civil librties and rights.

I am all for fighting terrorism, but the rights of the individual must be paramount. This is what sets our countries apart from others who "profess" to be developed nations.

I'm sure you'll disagree, but again , this is another aspect of freedom we cherish. The right to discuss, disagree and live in harmony..

By a merry can muslim• 18 Dec 2008 00:23
a merry can muslim

Alexa technically the constitution overrides all other law.

But basically it takes occurences like this for them to be brought before a state or the federal supreme court.

They call it the American dream because you have to be asleep to see it... --George Carlin

By a merry can muslim• 18 Dec 2008 00:21
a merry can muslim

And what are those valid points SuperNurse...?

I was hoping you gave up after your indifferent comment of whatever...

Anyway, you are correct. You are not 'getting at anything'... Your posts are totally absent of adding anything to the discussion, are they not?

If anything it seems that you ride the bandwagon... or perhaps you are pulling it...

They call it the American dream because you have to be asleep to see it... --George Carlin

By nadt• 18 Dec 2008 00:07
nadt

Brit is right, "The ruling seems to go against the "First Amendment" allowing for freedom of expression, speech and religion. However for security reasons again as Brit suggested they couldve conducted a private search by a female before allowing her in court..

By anonymous• 18 Dec 2008 00:06
anonymous

she's not trolling at all, she actually has some valid points!

By a merry can muslim• 18 Dec 2008 00:01
a merry can muslim

Carol that is a very easy question to answer.

The 2 countries are different in their culture and system of laws.

Gulf countries have never claimed to be like USA in these areas. So why try to compare them?

And who said it was ok for someone to be hit by stones for having hair exposed in KSA?

Who says it is a big no no for the woman to expose her face for security checks?

Seems like you are trolling young lass....

They call it the American dream because you have to be asleep to see it... --George Carlin

By carol2008• 17 Dec 2008 23:57
carol2008

So, someone explain to me...whats the difference between what happened to this woman in the USA and what happens to any other woman who goes out in places like Saudi Arabia without being covered head to toe and -of course- her husband walking few steps ahead???

Why in non muslim countries it is seen like a violation to human rights -witch is a bit questionable - but it is ok to be hit by stones if your hair is exposed on the streets of SA? Why THEN it is not a violation -for the muslims point of view, I mean.

Why the way philipinos and indians are treated here is not considered violation by the locals? When taking their vail out for a security check is a big no-no?

By anonymous• 17 Dec 2008 23:45
anonymous

Not trying 'to get at' anything........* says whatever in a Vicky Pollard way *

By anonymous• 17 Dec 2008 23:36
anonymous

Question is: Where one should live?

By britexpat• 17 Dec 2008 23:16
britexpat

I am surprised that the story did not use her islamic name.. Anyway, it doesn't matter, because I believe that changing a name is not mandatory in Islam..

As an aside, her lawyer says that she is planning a lawsuit.

Should be interesting to see if the federal courts allow it..

By a merry can muslim• 17 Dec 2008 23:08
a merry can muslim

My name is not a 'Muslim name.'

I am not sure what you are trying to get at....

They call it the American dream because you have to be asleep to see it... --George Carlin

By anonymous• 17 Dec 2008 23:03
anonymous

It didn't say she was......not avery "islamic' name is it......she's probably jumping on the bandwagon.....

By anonymous• 17 Dec 2008 23:01
anonymous

Question it said mulsim woman, Lisa Valantine is not a Mulsim name?

By a merry can muslim• 17 Dec 2008 23:00
a merry can muslim

SuperNurse, Where did it say she was orthodox?

And what is wrong with the name 'valentine'?

It simply means healthy or strong in latin...

They call it the American dream because you have to be asleep to see it... --George Carlin

By a.k.a• 17 Dec 2008 22:56
a.k.a

gues you don't wanna live in aust either?

By anonymous• 17 Dec 2008 22:56
anonymous

Lisa Valentine eh? Odd name for a muslim lady....or at least an orthodox one!

By a.k.a• 17 Dec 2008 22:56
a.k.a

Don't know if its the same as Aust but a judge in aust can and does decide whatever he/she wants as its his/her court room and I have seen judges order people out of the room to come back another day because of their attire, including an aboringal man refusing to take of a head band in traditional colours.

By a merry can muslim• 17 Dec 2008 22:54
a merry can muslim

Brit, she probably did not seek the aid of council and as soon as CAIR showed up they threw down the gauntlet regarding her being held for the 'offense' of contempt of court.

They call it the American dream because you have to be asleep to see it... --George Carlin

By heero_yuy2• 17 Dec 2008 22:54
heero_yuy2

"Everything in this book may be wrong." Illusions: The Adventures of The Reluctant Messiah by Richard Bach

By a merry can muslim• 17 Dec 2008 22:52
a merry can muslim

It sort of Does Alexa. Because the government (through the appointed or elected judge) has prohibited her from practicing a mandatory act that is prescribed by her faith.

This is no different than the judge creating law because it involves precedent.

They call it the American dream because you have to be asleep to see it... --George Carlin

By yoda• 17 Dec 2008 22:24
yoda

As i said in the post 'should' be respected irrelevant of country.

I did not imply in any way, shape or form that such a country existed at this point in time (and possibly never will). The point is that we have to have high ideals to aspire to in order to make life better.

By britexpat• 17 Dec 2008 22:24
britexpat

I have googled the story and found all the news stories a little confusing..

There is a basic issue here..

The ruling seems to go against the "First Amendment" allowing for freedom of expression, speech and religion.

There is no clarity as to whether the law as stated is applied to all - ie Sikhs, Jews, Amish etc. The oddity is that she was released as soon as CAIR got involved. WHY ?

I personaly believe that it would be better to "search" the lady in a private room as she arrived and then let her wear the scarf in court..

By a merry can muslim• 17 Dec 2008 22:14
a merry can muslim

Alexa America is supposed to be a country where things like never happen. Indeed it is not an Islamic country. It is a secular country that prohibits government intervention in ruling against a person practicing their religion.

They call it the American dream because you have to be asleep to see it... --George Carlin

By yoda• 17 Dec 2008 22:10
yoda

in any country all minorities (however small) have rights which should be respected and protected

By qatarisun• 17 Dec 2008 22:03
Rating: 3/5
qatarisun

your profile states you are american?

*********************

“You become responsible forever for what you have tamed”. Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

Log in or register to post comments

More from Qatar Living

Qatar’s top beaches for water sports thrills

Qatar’s top beaches for water sports thrills

Let's dive into the best beaches in Qatar, where you can have a blast with water activities, sports and all around fun times.
Most Useful Apps In Qatar - Part Two

Most Useful Apps In Qatar - Part Two

This guide brings you the top apps that will simplify the use of government services in Qatar.
Most Useful Apps In Qatar - Part One

Most Useful Apps In Qatar - Part One

this guide presents the top must-have Qatar-based apps to help you navigate, dine, explore, access government services, and more in the country.
Winter is coming – Qatar’s seasonal adventures await!

Winter is coming – Qatar’s seasonal adventures await!

Qatar's winter months are brimming with unmissable experiences, from the AFC Asian Cup 2023 to the World Aquatics Championships Doha 2024 and a variety of outdoor adventures and cultural delights.
7 Days of Fun: One-Week Activity Plan for Kids

7 Days of Fun: One-Week Activity Plan for Kids

Stuck with a week-long holiday and bored kids? We've got a one week activity plan for fun, learning, and lasting memories.
Wallet-friendly Mango Sticky Rice restaurants that are delightful on a budget

Wallet-friendly Mango Sticky Rice restaurants that are delightful on a budget

Fasten your seatbelts and get ready for a sweet escape into the world of budget-friendly Mango Sticky Rice that's sure to satisfy both your cravings and your budget!
Places to enjoy Mango Sticky Rice in  high-end elegance

Places to enjoy Mango Sticky Rice in high-end elegance

Delve into a world of culinary luxury as we explore the upmarket hotels and fine dining restaurants serving exquisite Mango Sticky Rice.
Where to celebrate World Vegan Day in Qatar

Where to celebrate World Vegan Day in Qatar

Celebrate World Vegan Day with our list of vegan food outlets offering an array of delectable options, spanning from colorful salads to savory shawarma and indulgent desserts.