I was wondering why the european expats are being paid quadruple the salary of asians who have the same or even more experience and education???
At least thats the way it is in my work place.
In Canada, the criteria is NOT race or gender, the criteria IS competences, skills, experience and education.
In Canada, there are systems in place at all levels and intellect infrastructures to identify the right candidates, to employ them accordingly, to motivate them to precede a career path.
In Canada a Construction Worker has the same social value as a Doctor or an Engineer.
In Canada a Construction worker is educated and professionally trained to exercise his trade and he is generally paid more than an engineer.
Canada is a society built upon respect of the human kind regardless their color, race, gender, etc...
No it’s not a perfect society, as it’s composed of humans and as such it could never reach perfection, but it sure is a more human society than any society in the Middle East can dream of achieving within the next 100 years.
The above is valid for Canadian citizens with Canadian education. When a person meets both criterias, he/or she will be in equal positions of his compatriots.
Now, if you arrive in Canada with an Asian degree, you won’t be granted the same privileges or status when applying for a job. First, you’ll have to go through a process of obtaining an equivalent Canadian degree. Most of the times the person will have to sit through a series of exams and sometimes will even have to attend and pass required courses and training programs.
Canadian and Western Curriculums differ from Asian Curriculums. The whole education system in the west, as well as western cultures, stimulate people to see the world with independent critical thinking, contrary to what happens in general with Asian cultures. In the competitive corporate world, those who have a western education and have been exposed to western cultures seem to have a preference.
Coming back to Qatar, being a very young country with very little legislation, intellect infrastructures, where servants are seen as the norm and second class people, where the distance between the rich and the poor migrants are similar to those of the Medieval Age in Europe, where the system feeds and teaches discrimination, where the employer doesn’t have the ability to identify quality, the employment criteria, is a simplistic, naïve and non-intelligent one. The result is what we see and what we are discussing here!
Don't forget that we are working in an uneducated Bedouin society, disguised with a fake and shallow western facade!
Oh No !!! Need to get Handbag and move back 10 Paces with Gadarene on the web blower !!! There is a lot that you do not know about.
Nomad, sorry but you need to check the official facts:
Armenia and Cyorus are officially part of Europe, with Cyprus holding a seat on the European Council.
Per European Council, Azerbaijan, Turkey and Georgia are also part of Europe. With the latter trying to become an EEC member for at least the past 15 years.
Israel is the sticky one, but they did win the Eurovision Song Contest !!!
don't agree to work for 5000, ask 50,000. Simple as that.
You AGREE to work for 5000. WHO to be blamed? I don't think any canadian would agree to come to qatar and work here for 5000 QR. Home he/she will get this QR5000 (about CAN$ 1,500)as unemployment benefit.
Blame rather YOUR government which makes you guys working for US$100-200 a month, and to be happy that you got a chance at least to get this job.
*********************
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small compared to what lies within us."
I never understood what the western inducement allowance was until I arrived in the middleast. So I was expecting every thing to be the same when I arrived here. Guess the employers here have got it right to an extent and they are really paying for what they get.
Nic: Thanx for the input. Which again brings us to the points
1.recruiting and 2.quality of output.
If firms in Canada pay the same amount, irrespective of nationality, and still hire Asians, it should mean there's not much disparity in the quality of work. Which brings us to recruitment.
If the general perception of Asians in ME is bad, it should also point to the recruitment system where undeserving candidates have been recruited, thus spoiling the outlook about Asian workforce. I do agree there can be other forces at play here(like the brand thing)
Exiled: Thanx. I do get paid reasonably well(shall I add, 'for an Indian'? ). Wouldnt mind if i get a raise, though! ;)
If certain westerns were offered what certain Asian countries pay their citizens, I don't think that you would have a single one of those westerners working here.
This country is not a country where we settle here with our families for good, it’s just a base camp, to make some money to fuel our lives back home, and that we all know have different costs.
Not saying that this is correct but its one of the factors that ME does what they do and gets away with it!
the cost of living argument is just plain stupid. its unfortunate that the cost of living in the UK for example is higher than most asian countries but that shouldn't work against us. we should be paid according to what we do regardless of nationality. In case we have more purchasing power due to lower cost of living then that is our advantage. its just racism period.
In the west, particularly in Canada, rewarding people in accordance with their passports or race would be illegal and if practiced and caught it would be prosecuted as a crime.
As you said, and it is noticeable on our daily lives here, a lot has to do with ME’s perception of Asians.
Winn that is an excellent way to think about it. People pay more for a Gucci handbag than ones from Marks and Spencer because of the brand and the luxury associated with it.
I'm most impressed by your perception I hope you get paid well!
My god i bet you have had heaps of good quqlity jobs in the past with your education, Where is Asia.. wher is teh Middle east.. all the same..ok i wil hire you.. now go make me some tea
On a general level, westerners seem to be able to DEMONSTRATE better levels of leadership and trouble shooting. (Just see how many countries are there in the west that are poor/under developed/developing compared to Asia/Africa. and its not that they have an advantage of natural resources or climate over others)They can also sell themselves well. They also tend to grasp the bigger picture well, compared to the Asians who excel in specialising in a particular discipline of study. But then, this is only a generalisation.
This is not to say there arent any asians who cant do the same. Whether you look at Mittal/TATA/SONY etc and what they have achieved in the west, the Asians who work at high profile jobs in western countries or the IIM/IIT graduates who are almost completely recruited by western companies, there are enough proofs for Asian talent and capabilities.
But the issue is that, due to the problems intrinsic to the demographics of Asian population, there is quite a sizeable chunk of the population who have not been fortunate enough to get the same kind of education and exposure that their more fortunate counterparts could attain. This particular section, which is quite sizeable, tips the balance when it comes to the general world view of the quality of asian workforce.
Also, I am not quite sure how it works out in the west. Do they pay less for asian employees, like here in the middle east? if not, that is another pointer, which could tell us that the workforce from Asia that ends up in gulf(that includes yours truly)is somehow the ones that couldnt make it in their own homes or in the west. It could also mean the ME perception of Asians has a hand in this.
Before accusing anybody of RACISM in this matter, what the Asians should think about is, what exactly weighs in favor of the westerner and how to make the same factor work for them. Its not skin, its more than passport, its the BRAND that has been created around it.
Like how sony made it in the west.Morita knew how to combine creative, cost-effective engineering (their core philosophy) with product marketing and brand creation.End of the day, its about brand creation.
As much as I have seen brilliant managers from west, I have also seen ones who have reached that position simply by virtue of their passport. That is what you call brand value.(Not saying that there arent local/Asian managers who have been lucky in a similiar way, for them its other reasons) Have we reached a place where we are ready to launch that brand that would do half the selling for us? Till then, Asians will have to put up with lesser pays.
Agree with my exiled friend (hope I can call you a friend).
It is not racism per se but rather a nationalism, pasportism or perhaps Jawaazsafarism (please correctt my Arabic).
In many companies Mr Tendulkar will get the same package as Mr Collingwood eventhough he just get his british passport last week. However without an Australian passport Mr Afridi will not get the same as Mr Ponting despite the fact that he had lived, study and work all his live there.
Oh well, in the end no one force us to sign that dotted line and no one (I assume) hold our passports and prevent us to say goodbye.
I am in total agreement with Nic and one more thing I appreciate about white skinned people is that they are honest and never fool their ownselves . Probably that's the reason they ruled the world ones.
Honestly, after all the professional frustrations I've been through here, the only reason that retains me in this country is the money!
I can ensure you that ME experience is NOT an asset and it is often seen as a disadvantage when you'll try to reintegrate the western job market.
It is well known in the west that the professional standards in the ME are very low.
There are several reasons, just to name a few: blind localization and promotions of unqualified, non-competent and uneducated local people in lead positions; low work-force salaries, non-existent real HR policies, etc... Nobody is motivated here to pursue a career as all know that won't happen...and so many more... in summary this is not a normal country where hard work, innovation, leadership and results are rewarded accordingly. This is a country where the wealth pours out of the soil, regardless people being hard working or being passive and do the minimum to get the most... the second scenario is the actual reality and the locals are to lazy or to incompetent or the hopeless to control this disgrace.
My point was just: "if you don't like it who's keeping you here? There are two full lists for every of us regarding pro- or anti- working as an expat. We are the sole responsible for our acts and decisions. I could work in Germany for almost the same money as here. Part of my decision was to gain some ME experience and to live in a more quite environment. I am not sure 100% it was the wisest thing but I am not complaining about it..
Anyhow, nice to meet you. Hope you are enjoying the life here... :)
@ Dohadiesel,eh? aren't you on the wrong thread about this?!...there's a LOT more choice in Singapore than there is here,as for the prices,since you're living there & i haven't been there for a good few months now,your beer will be cheaper in Qatar than it is in Singapore & i stand corrected...there you go,yipee!! cheaper beer,"rasvegas" awaits your imminent arrival!!!...this little boy has something you might want to ponder,just like you live in Singapore & know more about the price of a pint than i do,i live here,you don't & if you think the cheaper pints are going to make up for ALL the shit one has to deal with here,think again my friend...we ALL must give up something to gain something,such is life,there's no dodging it...so yes,you'll get tax-free pay & the pints are cheaper but unless you plan to turn into a raging alcoholic on the grog 24/7,i don't see how that will significantly affect your life here...HOWEVER,there will be a LOT you'll be giving up that you took for granted in Singapore...essential difference here my friend,i've lived in BOTH places in question,well lived in one,currently live in the other,you on the other hand,have ONLY lived in one,so it'd be prudent to reserve judgement before actually coming & living here don't you think?...sometimes one can learn a lot from observing kids *wink*!!...have a good one!...
Its not racism, it may be nationalitism to create a new word but they are people with western passports who are non-white that earn 'western' money.
It may be wrong but you signed the contract when you came so it was your decision. Maybe go home and negotiate better for your next contract and if they don't give you what you want, then don't come.
The color of the passport may be the first selection criteria (we all agree that this is wrong and subjective) but I hope that most of the cases the evaluation of skills, competences, education and experience will be the determining factors!
People may try to be politically correct here but that's what it is.. Anyone of you who doesn't think this is because of your passport is welcome to send me a message and I will show them the power of the colour of the passport, atleast at 50 places in a single day in Qatar.. Get real people.... STOP PRETENDING THAT RACISM HAS GONE AWAY!!!!!!
Arabs are from the Middle east, Asian are from the Far east. Arabs are not classed as Asians. but hay I am white and had a different schooling from you
Rules are a guideline for intelligent people, but they must be adhered to by idiots.
At the end of the day if you sign on the dotted line, it means you are happy to work for that amount of money, no use looking into other peoples pockets. We all make choices and have to live it.
"Remember the white population have always been the boss, the asian have always been the workers, take it or leave it, go home and get bread crumbs.. but doo tell me as i would love to get frostbite.... too affraid hay... thought so lier"
jackfrost - WE all work for the qataris and qataris are asians. so so much for you being the boss.
Alexa, I think that there is more Westerners on local / semi local basis than say 10 years ago.
I am considered Western and will be on a semi local package in Qatar. Down here in Singapore where I am moving from, nowadays about 75% of Western Expats are on what is considered as a local package.
Gadardene, for a young boy who seems to think he knows it all, you really need to re-look at some of the facts that you are trying to put across. (BTW, 43 QRS I was for a Beer at Ice Cold on Saturday!)
your provider. Stop being envious, Hasad will deprive you fragrance of Jannah
Abu Tharr may Allaah be pleased with him said: "I heard the Messenger of Allaah sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam said: `When forty-two nights are passed, Allaah sends an angel to the nutfah (embryo) and he gives it shape, forming its hearing and sight, its skin, flesh and bones. Then he says: `O Lord, male or female?' Then your Lord decrees whatever He wills and the angel writes it down.'" [Muslim]
Another hadith
"Each one of you comes together in mother's womb for forty days, then becomes an 'Aalaqah (clot) for a similar period of time. Then he becomes a Mudhghah (chewed lump of flesh) for a similar length of time. Then Allaah sends an angel to him, who is commanded with four things. It is said to him: Write down his deeds, his provision, and whether he is doomed (destined for Hell) or blessed (destined for Paradise). Then the soul is breathed into him.'"
I wont allow her to work as her salary is too low. she gets good money back in her country, but here,, forget it baby.. i get 10 times her salary. so why should she work here... our choice.. same as it is your, if you dont like it, dont take it,, dont complain to us her,, we have 4 words if you dong like it,, Piss off back home
Rules are a guideline for intelligent people, but they must be adhered to by idiots.
My uncle, a Mr. Singh gets paid the same amount as any Mr. Wright and Mr. Wong working at his level. He works for Reliance and have quite a few westerners in his department..
looking @ this objectively,i think a lot of people on here are confusing undeserving whites employed in the ME to the ones that are actually qualified & deserve the pay they get...JUST LIKE there are deserving,well qualified Asians,the only issue is,the TRULY well qualified,deserving people be they white,Asian or anything in between are unlikely to choose to give up so much to come here JUST for higher monetary return...i have friends back home with whom i've talked about moving here & their reaction has been pretty much,thanks but no thanks mate,India is booming right now & yes they could still make more money here since it's tax-free but according to them,if that means reporting to a local cameljock with a degree from some obscure North American Uni. or some white plumber who's "head of engineering" here & who don't know even half of what these guys know,then no thanks because they'd have to dumb down to deal with these guys & in the long run,one loses one's edge doing that...so fact is,there are well qualified people all over the world of ALL colour & having been educated ALL over the world,but one seldom sees a lot of those people in this neck of the woods,no point confusing that status quo with "western educated people are better than those that aren't."...that's just plain ridiculous...i have a question,would all the "western educated is better than any other" variety of people on here please explain to me why a significant % of NASA's scientists are Indians EDUCATED IN INDIA?...or why a significant % of the NHS doctors in the UK are Indian & TRAINED IN INDIA?...or why Silicon Valley California is full of INDIAN EDUCATED software engineers?...why oh why,if western educated people are so much superior,are they not in these positions?...dare i say the Indian educated lot is actually better than them?...oohh sacrilege,"Indian better than western,did he just say that? he must be punished for uttering such blasphemous remarks"...
Remember the white population have always been the boss, the asian have always been the workers, take it or leave it, go home and get bread crumbs.. but doo tell me as i would love to get frostbite.... too affraid hay... thought so lier
Rules are a guideline for intelligent people, but they must be adhered to by idiots.
People who complain why others get more than them are usually social climbers who can't eat back home, and once they come here they forget about thier origin and start comparing themself with others. Why and Why?
To make it short, If you don't like it, get the hell out of here and go somewhere else. Thats it.
It depends on the company, and the contract. In my company, the position dictates the salary and there is some "wiggle room" in negotiating a higher salary or benefits if you bring something spectacular to the table (like great negotiating skills, I guess).
I don't know how it is elsewhere, but I guess my question is: if you are so unhappy with your contract, why did you sign it?
Ok who wants to bet a month's salary with me that this pink advertising campaign which is irritating everyone is designed by either American or European.
if you knew my salary ,Jackfrost, you will get a frostbite.
I am agree with everyone that if you have signed a contract, you shouldn't complaint. Likewise, I maintain that Europeans and Americans working here are of inferior quality than their Asian counterpart, but I don't have a problem with that too because their salary doesn't come from my account.
Europeans are very good only in one aspect that they can convince people of their lies.But I personally consider a great quality to be a convincing liar because nothing succeeds like money. I wish we Asians learn to stop working hard and start convincing people of our leadership qualities and individualism. But then who will do the real work?
Shahzad It's just human nature. If I was paid higher than the westerners at the same post, I won't see a problem and will justify it someway or another. They are doing the same but I expect the status quo to remain as it is and I have made peace with it.
I have one main principle regarding this story: you are asking for an amount. If you are receiving what you have asked for, why are you complaining. If the offer is lower, why have you accepted it?
On the other hand I know a lot of Indians or Iranians that are paid better than me. So, maybe is not the nationality. Each of us consider himself the most beautiful/handsome, the smartest, the most skilled etc. person. Maybe is not true, have you think about this??
I will give you an example that might show you a reason why lets say Filipinos as mentioned in this thread are earning little bit less than other nationalities:
Check this address, or else read below my comment to one filipina lady who envy others who get more than her husband: http://www.qatarliving.com/node/825227
X is a civil Engineer from Manila working in W Consturction Company and earning 5000 USD per month.
Y is a civil Engineer from US working in W Construction Company and earning 7500 USD per month.
Both X and Y has 13 years experiance in thier field.
Why X earns 5000 USD and Y earns 7500 USD per month?
Discrimination?
My opinion is:
- X needs to work in W Construction Company for 5 years to save money for buying a house back home in the Philippines.
- Y needs to work in W Construction Company for 15 years to save money for buying a house back home in the US.
- X has one son only who goes to Z university( One of the best well known expensive universities in the Philippines)where the fees are 30 000 peso (2300 QR!!) per year.
- Y has one son also who goes to G University(which is one of the humble small universities in California) where the fees are 20 000 USD (73 000 QR).
- X has a wife working in Kuwait with one son only and a mistress in Manila and a gf in Qatar. He has to support himself only and maybe send some gifts for his son from time to time.
- Y has a wife who is taking care of 6 children back home and he is the only one responsible for the whole family.
- If X is single and would like to get married, it won't cost him more than lets say 100 000 Peso (7600 QR) for one of the best wedding in a luxarious Cruise in the Ocean.
- If Y is single and originate, but a Muslim, he can not get married with less than 100 000 USD (365 000 QR) due to how expensive are weddings in the US, Hotels, Wedding Planner Companies, The Mahr (might reach millions) which is supposed to be given to the wife as a gift to buy all what she needs and would love to have.
Many Empployers know these facts and many others when recruiting staff.
If any of us is not satisfied with his job, then he better go straight home, or is it only Jelousy and Envy?
For what? Although his income is more than yours, most probably you got better life than him back home. Better House, Your kids are enrolling in better schools and universities...etc
The reality is, due to their cultural and education style backgrounds, westerners tend to be more assertive and determined clearly better leadership skills.
This is not a racist comment. There are studies about behavior in different cultures and there are huge differences!
No point arguing this here, as obviously those who question do not understand and/or accept the facts.
We are all humans, but shaped by education and culture in different ways!
I leave you with the cultural dimensions that Geert Hofstede choose to classify cultures and their behaviors:
(source: http://www.geert-hofstede.com/)
Power Distance Index (PDI) that is the extent to which the less powerful members of organizations and institutions (like the family) accept and expect that power is distributed unequally.
Individualism (IDV) on the one side versus its opposite, collectivism, that is the degree to which individuals are inte-grated into groups.
Masculinity (MAS) versus its opposite, femininity, refers to the distribution of roles between the genders which is another fundamental issue for any society to which a range of solutions are found.
Uncertainty Avoidance Index (UAI) deals with a society's tolerance for uncertainty and ambiguity; it ultimately refers to man's search for Truth.
Long-Term Orientation (LTO) versus short-term.
This is what Hofstede found about Canadians (culture and education):
Canada has Individualism (IDV) as the highest ranking (80) Hofstede Dimension, and is indicative of a society with a more individualistic attitude and relatively loose bonds with others. The populace is more self-reliant and looks out for themselves and their close family members. Privacy is considered the cultural norm and attempts at personal ingratiating may meet with rebuff.
The majority of Canadians, as well as citizens of other English speaking countries, (see United Kingdom, Australia, New Zealand, and the United States) have Individualism as their highest ranking Dimension.
Among high IDV countries, success is measured by personal achievement. Canadians tend to be self-confident and open to discussions on general topics; however, they hold their personal privacy off limits to all but the closest friends.
Ghandhi and Nehru were both educated at UK universities and look what they went on to achieve...
It is a never ending discussion Sandeepkadian and although some companies here do not discriminate others do for some reasons. So while some companies are willing to pay more for 'westerners' some people will feel aggrieved.
However I would like to make 10 times my salary that I could get back home like some of the Asians that work here!
ES that can become a never ending discussion.. Somebody soon will mention the large number of Indians working in NASA, Google, Microsoft in US if they had such good students coming out of US or why most of the doctors in UK are from India and so on and so on..
you rasist litte man, what would you know about .....a white skinned drunkard racist braggart is worth,... well I will tell you.. My take home monthly slary is over QR 40,0000 per month... now just how much would you be on per month little man,, would you be willing to copy your pay slip on the net as proof.. how much are you on sun26872
Rules are a guideline for intelligent people, but they must be adhered to by idiots.
They think west is best, how correct. Back in Dubai, we used to sell rubbish products at sky-high prices just because they were made in EU and always struggled to sell products made in Asia at low prices also even though they were exceeding the required specification.
Sun26872 - you're the one coming across as a racist in your post. How many times do you need to be told? They're not all white, they come in all colours! And they don't all drink ;-)
You shouldn't blame the people being paid, you should blame the people who are paying :-)
*****If you haven't got anything nice to say, don't say anything at all*****
I want to tell all my Indian friends that if these idiots want to spend their money by paying four times whatever a white skinned drunkard racist braggart is worth, why should we mind it? It's not that if they don't pay them, that money will come to us. Let them pay peanuts and enjoy monkey's work performance.
Nothing in this world is unfair. There is always a way of getting things even.
...of 'Pay for Nationality'. The labour laws of Qatar are primitive and pre industrialization practices have continued to date. Companies need to realize that the world has moved forward. The logic behind this practice is not ignorance as many would think,it is more of a feeling of applying economics around cost of living in the country of origin and extrapolating it to arrive at the salary figures. This has been taken directly from SaudiAramco.
Source:
- A study Conducted by FriedUnicorn - Vol I (September,1999)
western people are first class nationality regardless their educational background...that is why you cannot find here in ME an american office boy.....
... can't afford to spend a lot of time during the day on QL - too much work and responsibilities... and that's just ONE reason.
For once I have to agree with Jackfrost:
Quote: 'I have worked in 4 countries where it positions are for only western. When they had Local or Asian in the job it all went to Crap so to say, I was hired to clean the place up and set it back on track. The procedures were in place but the Asians or Local where too lazy to follow the path. Safety was one of the main issues, Accountability and having the work complete not just having the box ticked.'
He needs some work on his english skills but I have to agree with him. My husband has been working overseas for over 30 years now and the responsibility will only be given to somebody who can take the shit the position makes you go through and actually deal with it. You need to be firm, have capacity to argue the necessary points and leadership personality. And unfortunately there are a lot of people who lack these requirements.
What is a Westerner ? Someone who is from Europe, US, Canada Etc. ? or someone who comes from a developed country ? There are many of us going around whom are paid salaries that is the same as local hire or asian hire also in many countries !
Do not think it is fair to generalise that Westerners get paid more for everything. It depends on the job and scope that you are involved in.
Also bear in mind, even though Qatar is personal income tax free, some expats still have to pay taxes or other in their home countries which also accounts for higher pays.
@ miss pakistan,i didn't know we've met!!! yes i'm jobless,i live @ home with my parents,you forgot to add,live off them as well & basically waste my time on the internet 24/7,spot on! you'd put Sherlock Holmes to shame with your investigative skills...NONETHELESS,this is a public forum & we're ALL entitled to our opinions,i've stated mine above,simple...btw,nice try,but no i'm not taking the bait...'cos you're not worth it *wink*!! keep @ it though,never know when i might take it & you could actually justify your pathetic excuse for a life...have a good one!
That is why we are getting 3 or more times the salary, we are not late to work, not sick day all the time. Pride in our work. and as stated Quality of work..
I have worked in 4 countries where it positions are for only western. When they had Local or Asian in the job it all went to Crap so to say, I was hired to clean the place up and set it back on track. The procedures were in place but the Asians or Local where too lazy to follow the path. Safety was one of the main issues, Accountability and having the work complete not just having the box ticked.
I am happy they employ Asians here, it makes us guys look good. So thank you for your poor quality of workmanship and organization skill, you qualification may be high on paper.. But that’s as far as it goes. Again. Thank you
Rules are a guideline for intelligent people, but they must be adhered to by idiots.
That's a pathetic excuse, colour should never ever come into it, why would a white person deserve more money, that's absolutely ridiculous! I wish you were getting paid the same as them :-(
*****If you haven't got anything nice to say, don't say anything at all*****
Not really snessy, I can understand the part about higher cost of living back home and they should be paid more.. I mean I have hardly any expense back home.. What I find a bit hurtful is the excuse they give for their higher salary, Wo Gora hai ( He is white)
I am talking from my experience snessy, We have only whites from those countries in our company and knowing their salaries, I know how much more they are getting paid for the same and at times even lesser jobs...
Colour discrimination occurs everywhere, if you don't know that then you have lived in a very protective world. Higher cost of living back home matters as most of the expats are working here to save money and one day go back home to settle down with their savings here.
MP I love what I do and I get paid 4 times here for the same thing I was doing back home so I stay.. I already accepted that, I am just saying he gets more pay because of higher cost of living in his home country and his skin colour, not because he is better than me at what we do like some people are suggesting here.
That could be a reason arabic_nightingale along with the colour of the skin too.. All the other reasons mentioned above are plain nonsense in my opinion. I am willing to put my education and knowledge to the test against any of the western expatriates working here in similar field and there won't be much difference.
As for someone mentioning above that Indians come here because they can't get job anywhere else, well I work for the same company here for which I was working in India, the company which picked me from my campus so maybe the desire of not leaving that company got me here rather than any lack of job opportunity.
have the same qualifications, work ethics , thoroughness, common sense and diligence are present ..
Unquote
WHY AND WHY N number of asians are being hired right from their campus ( indian IITs and IIMs) and took to the west to work and teach the wetsern kids there????
@ Alexa,you're confusing me with someone else luv!...i lived briefly in the UK & briefly in the Caribbean but i was educated & trained in my home country i.e India @ well reputed institutions & i'm very proud of it...
@ sun26872...middle east is first choice for MANY Indians so you're completely wrong about that one,for a lot of Indians,they don't mind coming to the mideast 'cos it's just a 3hr. flight from home,earnings are tax-free & there are a lot of people from their community/town/village...they can't find that in the west,it's too cold from them for half the year or more,it's halfway around the world & no way would they be able to afford that 16 hr. flight ticket once a year like they do here & they pay tax on their earnings,put yourself in their shoes,would the west still be your first choice?...i thought not...You are right about the fact that most of the good Indian doctors(& India produces some of the best on the planet as i presume you know already) choose to stay @ home or go west but it would be unfair to say that because of that ALL Indian doctors in the mideast are substandard or the European doctors here for that matter...a lot of them move,again for the tax-free income,to try a new place,a new lifestyle,a life partner who's based here,there are so many things that factor into that descision...
Quality control as you rightly stated is in most cases a joke but again that doesn't apply across the board...a well trained person,wherever it is they are from,is unlikely to compromise on standards...
Quite clearly,you haven't the faintest idea what you're talking about & you haven't interacted with a lot of educated,informed,well travelled NON-WESTERNERS...probably has something to do with the fact that you're a racist bigot...THERE'S an informed decision...from a NON-WESTERNER...deal with it...
I have a basic question. For how many Indians, middle east is first choice for work? Usually, those who work here are already rejected from US and european countries ( and 70% are rejected by their own country) I don't know about other fields, but the doctors working in middle east are substandard compared to their own counterparts in India and the european doctors are even more substandard to these already substandard doctors.
Now, the conclusion is that quality control is a joke here. Employing few europeans (and one or two Americans) makes things look good. But they can't afford more than few and so they employ majority asians at cheapest rates to be cost effective, And the end result is a substandard organisation which spends lots of money, has poor performance and manipulated quality control( usually through media).
yes, this been discussed thousand times in QL. the best answers they can come up with is that, westeners has a higher cost of living from the country they CAME FROM. But what I don't do not understand is we are NOT IN THE WEST. at least they can give us a decent or the same housing allowances as westeners. i dont mind about not having the same basic pay for the same job, but at least same housing allowances or livable
Your passport carries more weight than your work around here.. I am in sales, I bring twice the business that some guys from other countries bring, I get paid less than half of their salary. That's life..
I'm asking a rethorical question about why would companies hire a 'Westerner' (I prefer to use this term) for 4 times the salary of 'Asians'.
According to a pure cost-benefit point of view, they would expect and should get a quadruple of productivity from the Westerner.
Question is, do they(companies or state for this matter) get what they bargained for?
The answer is (if indeed it is true that westerner are paid 4 times more, a proposition that need to be investigated further) a resounding YES, as we can see more westerner is arriving and based on the cost benefit principle above, companies feel that they still get ahead by hiring westerners. Here we assume that no one (companies or states) is stupid enough to prefer losing instead of winning.
There's a catch though. By 'productivity' they may not only refer to tangible things such as amount of product you produce or sales achievement. It may also include things such as prestige (ie. this real estate company is under British management) or something as cynical (as another poster put it) fear or subconcious inferiority complex. True or nor, I don't know....
Myself, If I think I am underpaid (dont really care what my colleages get), then I'll try to negotiate a better deal. If I cannot get a better deal, then I try to prove that I am underpaid by looking at a better job that give me more. If I cannot find a better job, then may be I'm paid exactly what my market worth is....... might as well shut my mouth and enjoy......
(NOte: 'paid' here mean the total compensation I get: sallary, job satisfaction,quality of live, traffic, red tapes etc).
I think arabs are in awe of Europeans and afraid of them. I think maybe they feel inferior to them or do not want to look cheap in front of them so they give them more salary to show that they are also superior and can afford them.....even though the European guy maybe out of work and usless in his country and desperate to get some work here.He just wants to come here for a couple of years to have some fun & sun and escape the cold and rain for while and spice up his resume to resettle back with some real work experience.
At least thats what i have seen in Doha for the last 10 years. I have no grouse against them nor have i been affected adversly by them at any point of time. ........Just my opinion.
Sorry to say my friends that discriminations are well alive in this country. Most of the time Asians has more experience and even got higher degree of educations against Westerns. The sad reality is that most company are impressed with the way they look and converse in English...but of course!! that's their mother tongue. But let them write a proper business letter...most of them are unprofessional. Some company look also for the passport when hiring people. But you know what? If your company got nonsense recruitment personnel and system...they easily deceived by westerns. No offense to Western people but these point of view are based on facts...however some of them are qualified as well...not being unfair and speaking generally.
Supply and demand, capitalism 101 pure and simple.
If enough well educated, well trained, well experienced, well qualified 'Asians' (Japanese usually get higher offer) refused to work for a quarter of salary of a comparable Europeans then in theory the companies will have to offer more to attract them.
Unfortunately, in practice for every Asian that refuse to work for a quarter of the European's salary there are ten more lining up to work for one-fifth.
I think the question should be re-phrased: Why would company hire a European/American/Australian/Japanese etc for four times the salary of a comparably qualified 'Asians'?????
This kind of practices could have been paced out sooner for white collar jobs however for technical jobs it could be the different in approach and superiority to do trouble shooting and problem solving. However for companys doing a simple processes and routines, theres no reason for differences in pay.
Unfortunately it matters where you come from, not what you know or what kind of qualifications you have. If that is not racist discrimination, I don't know what is.
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This debate rages on..... The injutice of it all
From pay, to entitlements, as well as women.
There is only one superpower.
flights prices to EU with those to India, Philippines, Indonesia etc.?? (talking about life costs....)
oh man , i had to hire someone to count my money for me :-)
Rules are a guideline for intelligent people, but they must be adhered to by idiots.
Fact, and WHY it happens only in the middle east???
where
the 3rd and 4th quote wins the bid on wasta and being local, they dnt care the money part of it, cause its not hard earned.
They gets rid of the inferiority complex by buying the so called superior and keeping as servant.
______________________________________________
- God Gives n Forgivs .. We Gets n Forgets -
well, you buy goods looking at brand not people. Branding humans is racism.
It's the effect of petrodollars on unused brains, associated with lack of education and real expertise!
Qatar is still primitive, but why should such a rich country take so much time to develop?
Are you nuts?......no doubt I am crazy about you!
Winn,
In Canada, the criteria is NOT race or gender, the criteria IS competences, skills, experience and education.
In Canada, there are systems in place at all levels and intellect infrastructures to identify the right candidates, to employ them accordingly, to motivate them to precede a career path.
In Canada a Construction Worker has the same social value as a Doctor or an Engineer.
In Canada a Construction worker is educated and professionally trained to exercise his trade and he is generally paid more than an engineer.
Canada is a society built upon respect of the human kind regardless their color, race, gender, etc...
No it’s not a perfect society, as it’s composed of humans and as such it could never reach perfection, but it sure is a more human society than any society in the Middle East can dream of achieving within the next 100 years.
The above is valid for Canadian citizens with Canadian education. When a person meets both criterias, he/or she will be in equal positions of his compatriots.
Now, if you arrive in Canada with an Asian degree, you won’t be granted the same privileges or status when applying for a job. First, you’ll have to go through a process of obtaining an equivalent Canadian degree. Most of the times the person will have to sit through a series of exams and sometimes will even have to attend and pass required courses and training programs.
Canadian and Western Curriculums differ from Asian Curriculums. The whole education system in the west, as well as western cultures, stimulate people to see the world with independent critical thinking, contrary to what happens in general with Asian cultures. In the competitive corporate world, those who have a western education and have been exposed to western cultures seem to have a preference.
Coming back to Qatar, being a very young country with very little legislation, intellect infrastructures, where servants are seen as the norm and second class people, where the distance between the rich and the poor migrants are similar to those of the Medieval Age in Europe, where the system feeds and teaches discrimination, where the employer doesn’t have the ability to identify quality, the employment criteria, is a simplistic, naïve and non-intelligent one. The result is what we see and what we are discussing here!
Don't forget that we are working in an uneducated Bedouin society, disguised with a fake and shallow western facade!
Oh No !!! Need to get Handbag and move back 10 Paces with Gadarene on the web blower !!! There is a lot that you do not know about.
Nomad, sorry but you need to check the official facts:
Armenia and Cyorus are officially part of Europe, with Cyprus holding a seat on the European Council.
Per European Council, Azerbaijan, Turkey and Georgia are also part of Europe. With the latter trying to become an EEC member for at least the past 15 years.
Israel is the sticky one, but they did win the Eurovision Song Contest !!!
UN West Asia, just goeas by the earth's plate.
don't agree to work for 5000, ask 50,000. Simple as that.
You AGREE to work for 5000. WHO to be blamed? I don't think any canadian would agree to come to qatar and work here for 5000 QR. Home he/she will get this QR5000 (about CAN$ 1,500)as unemployment benefit.
Blame rather YOUR government which makes you guys working for US$100-200 a month, and to be happy that you got a chance at least to get this job.
*********************
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small compared to what lies within us."
Oliver Wendell Holmes
Strong european currency, life style and disturbance allowance....make it four fold hefty package ;)
I never understood what the western inducement allowance was until I arrived in the middleast. So I was expecting every thing to be the same when I arrived here. Guess the employers here have got it right to an extent and they are really paying for what they get.
-----------------
"HE WHO DARES WINS"
Derek Edward Trotter
tradition....white slaves
http://www.qatarliving.com/node/165018
Rules are a guideline for intelligent people, but they must be adhered to by idiots.
Nic: Thanx for the input. Which again brings us to the points
1.recruiting and 2.quality of output.
If firms in Canada pay the same amount, irrespective of nationality, and still hire Asians, it should mean there's not much disparity in the quality of work. Which brings us to recruitment.
If the general perception of Asians in ME is bad, it should also point to the recruitment system where undeserving candidates have been recruited, thus spoiling the outlook about Asian workforce. I do agree there can be other forces at play here(like the brand thing)
Exiled: Thanx. I do get paid reasonably well(shall I add, 'for an Indian'? ). Wouldnt mind if i get a raise, though! ;)
hey jackfrost... where's my tea?
Estong,
If certain westerns were offered what certain Asian countries pay their citizens, I don't think that you would have a single one of those westerners working here.
This country is not a country where we settle here with our families for good, it’s just a base camp, to make some money to fuel our lives back home, and that we all know have different costs.
Not saying that this is correct but its one of the factors that ME does what they do and gets away with it!
the cost of living argument is just plain stupid. its unfortunate that the cost of living in the UK for example is higher than most asian countries but that shouldn't work against us. we should be paid according to what we do regardless of nationality. In case we have more purchasing power due to lower cost of living then that is our advantage. its just racism period.
I suggest you go back to school Mr Jackfrost...
Countries in Western Asia
The countries of Western Asia according to the UN Subregion, listed below:
Armenia
Azerbaijan (partially in Europe)
Bahrain
Cyprus
Georgia
Israel
Iraq
Jordan
Kuwait
Lebanon
Oman
Palestinian Territories (Gaza Strip and West Bank), sovereignty disputed
Qatar
Saudi Arabia
Syria
Turkey (partially in Europe)
United Arab Emirates
Yemen
Winn,
In the west, particularly in Canada, rewarding people in accordance with their passports or race would be illegal and if practiced and caught it would be prosecuted as a crime.
As you said, and it is noticeable on our daily lives here, a lot has to do with ME’s perception of Asians.
Winn that is an excellent way to think about it. People pay more for a Gucci handbag than ones from Marks and Spencer because of the brand and the luxury associated with it.
I'm most impressed by your perception I hope you get paid well!
My god i bet you have had heaps of good quqlity jobs in the past with your education, Where is Asia.. wher is teh Middle east.. all the same..ok i wil hire you.. now go make me some tea
On a general level, westerners seem to be able to DEMONSTRATE better levels of leadership and trouble shooting. (Just see how many countries are there in the west that are poor/under developed/developing compared to Asia/Africa. and its not that they have an advantage of natural resources or climate over others)They can also sell themselves well. They also tend to grasp the bigger picture well, compared to the Asians who excel in specialising in a particular discipline of study. But then, this is only a generalisation.
This is not to say there arent any asians who cant do the same. Whether you look at Mittal/TATA/SONY etc and what they have achieved in the west, the Asians who work at high profile jobs in western countries or the IIM/IIT graduates who are almost completely recruited by western companies, there are enough proofs for Asian talent and capabilities.
But the issue is that, due to the problems intrinsic to the demographics of Asian population, there is quite a sizeable chunk of the population who have not been fortunate enough to get the same kind of education and exposure that their more fortunate counterparts could attain. This particular section, which is quite sizeable, tips the balance when it comes to the general world view of the quality of asian workforce.
Also, I am not quite sure how it works out in the west. Do they pay less for asian employees, like here in the middle east? if not, that is another pointer, which could tell us that the workforce from Asia that ends up in gulf(that includes yours truly)is somehow the ones that couldnt make it in their own homes or in the west. It could also mean the ME perception of Asians has a hand in this.
Before accusing anybody of RACISM in this matter, what the Asians should think about is, what exactly weighs in favor of the westerner and how to make the same factor work for them. Its not skin, its more than passport, its the BRAND that has been created around it.
Like how sony made it in the west.Morita knew how to combine creative, cost-effective engineering (their core philosophy) with product marketing and brand creation.End of the day, its about brand creation.
As much as I have seen brilliant managers from west, I have also seen ones who have reached that position simply by virtue of their passport. That is what you call brand value.(Not saying that there arent local/Asian managers who have been lucky in a similiar way, for them its other reasons) Have we reached a place where we are ready to launch that brand that would do half the selling for us? Till then, Asians will have to put up with lesser pays.
Coz like everything, one day,
"this too shall pass"
Agree with my exiled friend (hope I can call you a friend).
It is not racism per se but rather a nationalism, pasportism or perhaps Jawaazsafarism (please correctt my Arabic).
In many companies Mr Tendulkar will get the same package as Mr Collingwood eventhough he just get his british passport last week. However without an Australian passport Mr Afridi will not get the same as Mr Ponting despite the fact that he had lived, study and work all his live there.
Oh well, in the end no one force us to sign that dotted line and no one (I assume) hold our passports and prevent us to say goodbye.
Cheers
SK
So that is why Microsoft Vista was crap and Windows 7 gives the black screen of death? You are not helping the Indians case here....
hai all,
u know, 30% of microsoft staff were from india,
........... only the matter , our is great , but ur people have resources ,thats all
Laurana,
same here ;)
wish you and all foreigners in Qatar, good luck to find a better way out as soon as possible!
I am in total agreement with Nic and one more thing I appreciate about white skinned people is that they are honest and never fool their ownselves . Probably that's the reason they ruled the world ones.
Are you nuts?......no doubt I am crazy about you!
I haven't seen your comment before coming here.....
I agree with you.
But now I will finish what I have started. After that, we'll see.....
Laurana,
Honestly, after all the professional frustrations I've been through here, the only reason that retains me in this country is the money!
I can ensure you that ME experience is NOT an asset and it is often seen as a disadvantage when you'll try to reintegrate the western job market.
It is well known in the west that the professional standards in the ME are very low.
There are several reasons, just to name a few: blind localization and promotions of unqualified, non-competent and uneducated local people in lead positions; low work-force salaries, non-existent real HR policies, etc... Nobody is motivated here to pursue a career as all know that won't happen...and so many more... in summary this is not a normal country where hard work, innovation, leadership and results are rewarded accordingly. This is a country where the wealth pours out of the soil, regardless people being hard working or being passive and do the minimum to get the most... the second scenario is the actual reality and the locals are to lazy or to incompetent or the hopeless to control this disgrace.
I can take it even if it was for real.
My point was just: "if you don't like it who's keeping you here? There are two full lists for every of us regarding pro- or anti- working as an expat. We are the sole responsible for our acts and decisions. I could work in Germany for almost the same money as here. Part of my decision was to gain some ME experience and to live in a more quite environment. I am not sure 100% it was the wisest thing but I am not complaining about it..
Anyhow, nice to meet you. Hope you are enjoying the life here... :)
@ Dohadiesel,eh? aren't you on the wrong thread about this?!...there's a LOT more choice in Singapore than there is here,as for the prices,since you're living there & i haven't been there for a good few months now,your beer will be cheaper in Qatar than it is in Singapore & i stand corrected...there you go,yipee!! cheaper beer,"rasvegas" awaits your imminent arrival!!!...this little boy has something you might want to ponder,just like you live in Singapore & know more about the price of a pint than i do,i live here,you don't & if you think the cheaper pints are going to make up for ALL the shit one has to deal with here,think again my friend...we ALL must give up something to gain something,such is life,there's no dodging it...so yes,you'll get tax-free pay & the pints are cheaper but unless you plan to turn into a raging alcoholic on the grog 24/7,i don't see how that will significantly affect your life here...HOWEVER,there will be a LOT you'll be giving up that you took for granted in Singapore...essential difference here my friend,i've lived in BOTH places in question,well lived in one,currently live in the other,you on the other hand,have ONLY lived in one,so it'd be prudent to reserve judgement before actually coming & living here don't you think?...sometimes one can learn a lot from observing kids *wink*!!...have a good one!...
Its not racism, it may be nationalitism to create a new word but they are people with western passports who are non-white that earn 'western' money.
It may be wrong but you signed the contract when you came so it was your decision. Maybe go home and negotiate better for your next contract and if they don't give you what you want, then don't come.
Laurana,
I was teasing you in response to the way you referred to 2 countries ;)
The color of the passport may be the first selection criteria (we all agree that this is wrong and subjective) but I hope that most of the cases the evaluation of skills, competences, education and experience will be the determining factors!
I am obviously referring to Lead Positions!
RACISM!!!!!!!!
People may try to be politically correct here but that's what it is.. Anyone of you who doesn't think this is because of your passport is welcome to send me a message and I will show them the power of the colour of the passport, atleast at 50 places in a single day in Qatar.. Get real people.... STOP PRETENDING THAT RACISM HAS GONE AWAY!!!!!!
either way you're still not the boss ;-p
Arabs are from the Middle east, Asian are from the Far east. Arabs are not classed as Asians. but hay I am white and had a different schooling from you
Rules are a guideline for intelligent people, but they must be adhered to by idiots.
At the end of the day if you sign on the dotted line, it means you are happy to work for that amount of money, no use looking into other peoples pockets. We all make choices and have to live it.
"Remember the white population have always been the boss, the asian have always been the workers, take it or leave it, go home and get bread crumbs.. but doo tell me as i would love to get frostbite.... too affraid hay... thought so lier"
jackfrost - WE all work for the qataris and qataris are asians. so so much for you being the boss.
Alexa, I think that there is more Westerners on local / semi local basis than say 10 years ago.
I am considered Western and will be on a semi local package in Qatar. Down here in Singapore where I am moving from, nowadays about 75% of Western Expats are on what is considered as a local package.
Gadardene, for a young boy who seems to think he knows it all, you really need to re-look at some of the facts that you are trying to put across. (BTW, 43 QRS I was for a Beer at Ice Cold on Saturday!)
your provider. Stop being envious, Hasad will deprive you fragrance of Jannah
Abu Tharr may Allaah be pleased with him said: "I heard the Messenger of Allaah sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam said: `When forty-two nights are passed, Allaah sends an angel to the nutfah (embryo) and he gives it shape, forming its hearing and sight, its skin, flesh and bones. Then he says: `O Lord, male or female?' Then your Lord decrees whatever He wills and the angel writes it down.'" [Muslim]
Another hadith
"Each one of you comes together in mother's womb for forty days, then becomes an 'Aalaqah (clot) for a similar period of time. Then he becomes a Mudhghah (chewed lump of flesh) for a similar length of time. Then Allaah sends an angel to him, who is commanded with four things. It is said to him: Write down his deeds, his provision, and whether he is doomed (destined for Hell) or blessed (destined for Paradise). Then the soul is breathed into him.'"
Al-Bukhaari
I wont allow her to work as her salary is too low. she gets good money back in her country, but here,, forget it baby.. i get 10 times her salary. so why should she work here... our choice.. same as it is your, if you dont like it, dont take it,, dont complain to us her,, we have 4 words if you dong like it,, Piss off back home
Rules are a guideline for intelligent people, but they must be adhered to by idiots.
relationship before?
ALumnar...!! right but i think when it comes to name. There is no dictionary LADY.
Now you see where the difference lies.....
Give my regards to him :)
Shahzad - not worth a reply if you can't even spell my username right. See where the difference lies?
Sabrang, I appreciate your point.
I have a suggestion for my Israeli friend. You cannot trick me into disclosing an information which might alert my GFs at Ramada signal.
Are you nuts?......no doubt I am crazy about you!
From what I know sabrang yes..
My uncle, a Mr. Singh gets paid the same amount as any Mr. Wright and Mr. Wong working at his level. He works for Reliance and have quite a few westerners in his department..
Wow, this thread is catching up like bushfire down under....
I have a question and I think this is not entirely hypothetical.
Does Tata or Reliance pay Mr Wright (from the US) or Mr Wong (From Taiwan) the same package as Mr Kumar (a local) ?
If not then perhaps the GCC is not the only one practising discrimination based on nationalities.
Cheers
SK
looking @ this objectively,i think a lot of people on here are confusing undeserving whites employed in the ME to the ones that are actually qualified & deserve the pay they get...JUST LIKE there are deserving,well qualified Asians,the only issue is,the TRULY well qualified,deserving people be they white,Asian or anything in between are unlikely to choose to give up so much to come here JUST for higher monetary return...i have friends back home with whom i've talked about moving here & their reaction has been pretty much,thanks but no thanks mate,India is booming right now & yes they could still make more money here since it's tax-free but according to them,if that means reporting to a local cameljock with a degree from some obscure North American Uni. or some white plumber who's "head of engineering" here & who don't know even half of what these guys know,then no thanks because they'd have to dumb down to deal with these guys & in the long run,one loses one's edge doing that...so fact is,there are well qualified people all over the world of ALL colour & having been educated ALL over the world,but one seldom sees a lot of those people in this neck of the woods,no point confusing that status quo with "western educated people are better than those that aren't."...that's just plain ridiculous...i have a question,would all the "western educated is better than any other" variety of people on here please explain to me why a significant % of NASA's scientists are Indians EDUCATED IN INDIA?...or why a significant % of the NHS doctors in the UK are Indian & TRAINED IN INDIA?...or why Silicon Valley California is full of INDIAN EDUCATED software engineers?...why oh why,if western educated people are so much superior,are they not in these positions?...dare i say the Indian educated lot is actually better than them?...oohh sacrilege,"Indian better than western,did he just say that? he must be punished for uttering such blasphemous remarks"...
F everyone got paid the same them the Asians would take all the nice accommodation in west bay and then where would all the westerners live......
Source:
- A study Conducted by FriedUnicorn - Vol I (September,1999)
Remember the white population have always been the boss, the asian have always been the workers, take it or leave it, go home and get bread crumbs.. but doo tell me as i would love to get frostbite.... too affraid hay... thought so lier
Rules are a guideline for intelligent people, but they must be adhered to by idiots.
that's a REALITY that we should accept..
lol Brit, I just got in touch with my feminine side I guess :)
Damn.. You sounded just like Mrs. Expat there :O(
No Tarsiers I will stay here and complain. If you got a problem with that, you can get the hell out of here.
People who complain why others get more than them are usually social climbers who can't eat back home, and once they come here they forget about thier origin and start comparing themself with others. Why and Why?
To make it short, If you don't like it, get the hell out of here and go somewhere else. Thats it.
Should I start a topic asking why you are paid better than me. I am happy with what I have and I am really not interested in what others have.
To pretend that you are underpaid when you are working abroad, I consider a huge hypocrisy. If so, why to leave your home country????
Khawaga who said I am unhappy.. I already posted I love my job.
It depends on the company, and the contract. In my company, the position dictates the salary and there is some "wiggle room" in negotiating a higher salary or benefits if you bring something spectacular to the table (like great negotiating skills, I guess).
I don't know how it is elsewhere, but I guess my question is: if you are so unhappy with your contract, why did you sign it?
Basterds.....
lol Brit.. I would still win, Lebanon is to the west of India so westerners get paid more and give this output.. Damn Westerners ;)
I would disagree and suggest that It's probably a Lebanese outfit..
right aluminar
and we have to work harder to get atleast somethin called SALARY which all gone on the 5th of every month.
Damn I thought I would make some good money today ;)
... he has to work to justify his salary ;)
Alumnar I am waging my entire month's salary on him being from west, ask your hubby if he wants to take the bet.
... but with the colour scheme surely by some idiot!!!
Ok who wants to bet a month's salary with me that this pink advertising campaign which is irritating everyone is designed by either American or European.
Quoting sun:
'Europeans are very good only in one aspect that they can convince people of their lies'.
They don't need to do that as their professionalism speaks for itself.
i have seen this incident in one of the renowed compnay here.
They do not have any auditing on that.
HOW MUCH Company pay to whom and pay for what
Even to contractors they are not paying equal.
if you knew my salary ,Jackfrost, you will get a frostbite.
I am agree with everyone that if you have signed a contract, you shouldn't complaint. Likewise, I maintain that Europeans and Americans working here are of inferior quality than their Asian counterpart, but I don't have a problem with that too because their salary doesn't come from my account.
Europeans are very good only in one aspect that they can convince people of their lies.But I personally consider a great quality to be a convincing liar because nothing succeeds like money. I wish we Asians learn to stop working hard and start convincing people of our leadership qualities and individualism. But then who will do the real work?
Are you nuts?......no doubt I am crazy about you!
just hope that the companies here are certified ISO and even the salary scale are being audited!
sorry sandeep for misuderstandin
actually i was quotin britexpat where he said that Y WORRY WHAT OTHER IS EARNING..
for me as well its kinda weird that.
Shahzad It's just human nature. If I was paid higher than the westerners at the same post, I won't see a problem and will justify it someway or another. They are doing the same but I expect the status quo to remain as it is and I have made peace with it.
i do not agree wid U
Y worry what other guy is earning
if there is a person who joins as the same post of yours and earning more then U and the only difference between both of U is nationalities,
What will you say
NOW DO NOT SAY that
laurana,
Romania comes below India and Iran in the Qatari HR guidelines for salary allocation.
is how much you have negotiated your salary?
I have one main principle regarding this story: you are asking for an amount. If you are receiving what you have asked for, why are you complaining. If the offer is lower, why have you accepted it?
On the other hand I know a lot of Indians or Iranians that are paid better than me. So, maybe is not the nationality. Each of us consider himself the most beautiful/handsome, the smartest, the most skilled etc. person. Maybe is not true, have you think about this??
I will give you an example that might show you a reason why lets say Filipinos as mentioned in this thread are earning little bit less than other nationalities:
Check this address, or else read below my comment to one filipina lady who envy others who get more than her husband: http://www.qatarliving.com/node/825227
X is a civil Engineer from Manila working in W Consturction Company and earning 5000 USD per month.
Y is a civil Engineer from US working in W Construction Company and earning 7500 USD per month.
Both X and Y has 13 years experiance in thier field.
Why X earns 5000 USD and Y earns 7500 USD per month?
Discrimination?
My opinion is:
- X needs to work in W Construction Company for 5 years to save money for buying a house back home in the Philippines.
- Y needs to work in W Construction Company for 15 years to save money for buying a house back home in the US.
- X has one son only who goes to Z university( One of the best well known expensive universities in the Philippines)where the fees are 30 000 peso (2300 QR!!) per year.
- Y has one son also who goes to G University(which is one of the humble small universities in California) where the fees are 20 000 USD (73 000 QR).
- X has a wife working in Kuwait with one son only and a mistress in Manila and a gf in Qatar. He has to support himself only and maybe send some gifts for his son from time to time.
- Y has a wife who is taking care of 6 children back home and he is the only one responsible for the whole family.
- If X is single and would like to get married, it won't cost him more than lets say 100 000 Peso (7600 QR) for one of the best wedding in a luxarious Cruise in the Ocean.
- If Y is single and originate, but a Muslim, he can not get married with less than 100 000 USD (365 000 QR) due to how expensive are weddings in the US, Hotels, Wedding Planner Companies, The Mahr (might reach millions) which is supposed to be given to the wife as a gift to buy all what she needs and would love to have.
Many Empployers know these facts and many others when recruiting staff.
If any of us is not satisfied with his job, then he better go straight home, or is it only Jelousy and Envy?
For what? Although his income is more than yours, most probably you got better life than him back home. Better House, Your kids are enrolling in better schools and universities...etc
So please enough Envy.
The reality is, due to their cultural and education style backgrounds, westerners tend to be more assertive and determined clearly better leadership skills.
This is not a racist comment. There are studies about behavior in different cultures and there are huge differences!
No point arguing this here, as obviously those who question do not understand and/or accept the facts.
We are all humans, but shaped by education and culture in different ways!
I leave you with the cultural dimensions that Geert Hofstede choose to classify cultures and their behaviors:
(source: http://www.geert-hofstede.com/)
Power Distance Index (PDI) that is the extent to which the less powerful members of organizations and institutions (like the family) accept and expect that power is distributed unequally.
Individualism (IDV) on the one side versus its opposite, collectivism, that is the degree to which individuals are inte-grated into groups.
Masculinity (MAS) versus its opposite, femininity, refers to the distribution of roles between the genders which is another fundamental issue for any society to which a range of solutions are found.
Uncertainty Avoidance Index (UAI) deals with a society's tolerance for uncertainty and ambiguity; it ultimately refers to man's search for Truth.
Long-Term Orientation (LTO) versus short-term.
This is what Hofstede found about Canadians (culture and education):
Canada has Individualism (IDV) as the highest ranking (80) Hofstede Dimension, and is indicative of a society with a more individualistic attitude and relatively loose bonds with others. The populace is more self-reliant and looks out for themselves and their close family members. Privacy is considered the cultural norm and attempts at personal ingratiating may meet with rebuff.
The majority of Canadians, as well as citizens of other English speaking countries, (see United Kingdom, Australia, New Zealand, and the United States) have Individualism as their highest ranking Dimension.
Among high IDV countries, success is measured by personal achievement. Canadians tend to be self-confident and open to discussions on general topics; however, they hold their personal privacy off limits to all but the closest friends.
erm....that's Gandhi,exiledsaint... :-) sorry for peeping in and pointing out the typo....just couldn't resist
Going to church no more makes you a Christian than standing in a garage makes you a car. ~ Garrison Keillor
Ghandhi and Nehru were both educated at UK universities and look what they went on to achieve...
It is a never ending discussion Sandeepkadian and although some companies here do not discriminate others do for some reasons. So while some companies are willing to pay more for 'westerners' some people will feel aggrieved.
However I would like to make 10 times my salary that I could get back home like some of the Asians that work here!
ES that can become a never ending discussion.. Somebody soon will mention the large number of Indians working in NASA, Google, Microsoft in US if they had such good students coming out of US or why most of the doctors in UK are from India and so on and so on..
Rules are a guideline for intelligent people, but they must be adhered to by idiots.
How many Asian Universities are in the top 100 worldwide?
you rasist litte man, what would you know about .....a white skinned drunkard racist braggart is worth,... well I will tell you.. My take home monthly slary is over QR 40,0000 per month... now just how much would you be on per month little man,, would you be willing to copy your pay slip on the net as proof.. how much are you on sun26872
Rules are a guideline for intelligent people, but they must be adhered to by idiots.
Brit you are correct too.. How come everyone is correct in his or her own way on this thread :-/
They think west is best, how correct. Back in Dubai, we used to sell rubbish products at sky-high prices just because they were made in EU and always struggled to sell products made in Asia at low prices also even though they were exceeding the required specification.
These discussions invariably lead nowhere.
The bottom line is that we all sign contracts that we are happy with. So why worry about what the other guy is earning ?
Is anyone here an employer who could answer the question why hire more expensive Europeans rather than the cheaper Asians?
Can we really class Canadians as westerners ?
the MIND SET of the people here that WEST is BEST.
NOthing else
i do not find any logical reason behind tht.
Sun26872 - you're the one coming across as a racist in your post. How many times do you need to be told? They're not all white, they come in all colours! And they don't all drink ;-)
You shouldn't blame the people being paid, you should blame the people who are paying :-)
*****If you haven't got anything nice to say, don't say anything at all*****
I want to tell all my Indian friends that if these idiots want to spend their money by paying four times whatever a white skinned drunkard racist braggart is worth, why should we mind it? It's not that if they don't pay them, that money will come to us. Let them pay peanuts and enjoy monkey's work performance.
Nothing in this world is unfair. There is always a way of getting things even.
Are you nuts?......no doubt I am crazy about you!
...of 'Pay for Nationality'. The labour laws of Qatar are primitive and pre industrialization practices have continued to date. Companies need to realize that the world has moved forward. The logic behind this practice is not ignorance as many would think,it is more of a feeling of applying economics around cost of living in the country of origin and extrapolating it to arrive at the salary figures. This has been taken directly from SaudiAramco.
Source:
- A study Conducted by FriedUnicorn - Vol I (September,1999)
western people are first class nationality regardless their educational background...that is why you cannot find here in ME an american office boy.....
Edited. No point
really fair....
if it does then there would no poor or rich and just same stature in life.
we just need to accept the fact and live with it
"We cannot change the past, we only learnt from it"
... can't afford to spend a lot of time during the day on QL - too much work and responsibilities... and that's just ONE reason.
For once I have to agree with Jackfrost:
Quote: 'I have worked in 4 countries where it positions are for only western. When they had Local or Asian in the job it all went to Crap so to say, I was hired to clean the place up and set it back on track. The procedures were in place but the Asians or Local where too lazy to follow the path. Safety was one of the main issues, Accountability and having the work complete not just having the box ticked.'
He needs some work on his english skills but I have to agree with him. My husband has been working overseas for over 30 years now and the responsibility will only be given to somebody who can take the shit the position makes you go through and actually deal with it. You need to be firm, have capacity to argue the necessary points and leadership personality. And unfortunately there are a lot of people who lack these requirements.
I do accept that mmyke.
What is a Westerner ? Someone who is from Europe, US, Canada Etc. ? or someone who comes from a developed country ? There are many of us going around whom are paid salaries that is the same as local hire or asian hire also in many countries !
Do not think it is fair to generalise that Westerners get paid more for everything. It depends on the job and scope that you are involved in.
Also bear in mind, even though Qatar is personal income tax free, some expats still have to pay taxes or other in their home countries which also accounts for higher pays.
to be individualistic,,,which is not the case at all in the east,,,this allows westerners to make an informed decision on the spot...
and westerners come in all colours, I was not narrowing the field to whites,,,,
like it, lump it, do what you want with it, but its the truth,,,
I am just being objective....
@ miss pakistan,i didn't know we've met!!! yes i'm jobless,i live @ home with my parents,you forgot to add,live off them as well & basically waste my time on the internet 24/7,spot on! you'd put Sherlock Holmes to shame with your investigative skills...NONETHELESS,this is a public forum & we're ALL entitled to our opinions,i've stated mine above,simple...btw,nice try,but no i'm not taking the bait...'cos you're not worth it *wink*!! keep @ it though,never know when i might take it & you could actually justify your pathetic excuse for a life...have a good one!
Good in subject learned and bad in soft skills. What a joke.
I wonder how all those asian CEOs and VPs in the west are surviving.
______________________________________________
- God Gives n Forgivs .. We Gets n Forgets -
That is why we are getting 3 or more times the salary, we are not late to work, not sick day all the time. Pride in our work. and as stated Quality of work..
I have worked in 4 countries where it positions are for only western. When they had Local or Asian in the job it all went to Crap so to say, I was hired to clean the place up and set it back on track. The procedures were in place but the Asians or Local where too lazy to follow the path. Safety was one of the main issues, Accountability and having the work complete not just having the box ticked.
I am happy they employ Asians here, it makes us guys look good. So thank you for your poor quality of workmanship and organization skill, you qualification may be high on paper.. But that’s as far as it goes. Again. Thank you
Rules are a guideline for intelligent people, but they must be adhered to by idiots.
Go for it Sandeep, cut out the middle man :-)
*****If you haven't got anything nice to say, don't say anything at all*****
Hopefully snessy very soon I will realise my dream of starting my own business and I won't have to worry about such things :)
That's a pathetic excuse, colour should never ever come into it, why would a white person deserve more money, that's absolutely ridiculous! I wish you were getting paid the same as them :-(
*****If you haven't got anything nice to say, don't say anything at all*****
Not really snessy, I can understand the part about higher cost of living back home and they should be paid more.. I mean I have hardly any expense back home.. What I find a bit hurtful is the excuse they give for their higher salary, Wo Gora hai ( He is white)
I empathise Sandeep, I agree you should earn the same as your western colleagues.
For hubby & I, we're not earning enough to save either, our mortgage and bills back in the UK eat away at all our money :-(
*****If you haven't got anything nice to say, don't say anything at all*****
I am talking from my experience snessy, We have only whites from those countries in our company and knowing their salaries, I know how much more they are getting paid for the same and at times even lesser jobs...
Westerners come in all colours, y'know?
There's probably a big difference in cost of living in home countries though.
*****If you haven't got anything nice to say, don't say anything at all*****
Colour discrimination occurs everywhere, if you don't know that then you have lived in a very protective world. Higher cost of living back home matters as most of the expats are working here to save money and one day go back home to settle down with their savings here.
MP I love what I do and I get paid 4 times here for the same thing I was doing back home so I stay.. I already accepted that, I am just saying he gets more pay because of higher cost of living in his home country and his skin colour, not because he is better than me at what we do like some people are suggesting here.
maybe because they come from first world/well-developed countries, and their currency is also of greater value.
But in other countries, such as UK or US, most workers (e.g.nurses are paid in hourly rate, so everybody receives same salary, regardless of race.
Nevertheless,I have to say that racial discrimination does exist in this country.
"I am not a native English speaker. So don't mock me for my grammar mistakes."
- anonymous
That could be a reason arabic_nightingale along with the colour of the skin too.. All the other reasons mentioned above are plain nonsense in my opinion. I am willing to put my education and knowledge to the test against any of the western expatriates working here in similar field and there won't be much difference.
As for someone mentioning above that Indians come here because they can't get job anywhere else, well I work for the same company here for which I was working in India, the company which picked me from my campus so maybe the desire of not leaving that company got me here rather than any lack of job opportunity.
If the westerners who.....
Quote
have the same qualifications, work ethics , thoroughness, common sense and diligence are present ..
Unquote
WHY AND WHY N number of asians are being hired right from their campus ( indian IITs and IIMs) and took to the west to work and teach the wetsern kids there????
______________________________________________
- God Gives n Forgivs .. We Gets n Forgets -
@ Alexa,i did indeed & thank you,i'm taking the liberty of accepting that as a compliment! :)...
@ Alexa,you're confusing me with someone else luv!...i lived briefly in the UK & briefly in the Caribbean but i was educated & trained in my home country i.e India @ well reputed institutions & i'm very proud of it...
Life Is UnFair and Thats It
@ sun26872...middle east is first choice for MANY Indians so you're completely wrong about that one,for a lot of Indians,they don't mind coming to the mideast 'cos it's just a 3hr. flight from home,earnings are tax-free & there are a lot of people from their community/town/village...they can't find that in the west,it's too cold from them for half the year or more,it's halfway around the world & no way would they be able to afford that 16 hr. flight ticket once a year like they do here & they pay tax on their earnings,put yourself in their shoes,would the west still be your first choice?...i thought not...You are right about the fact that most of the good Indian doctors(& India produces some of the best on the planet as i presume you know already) choose to stay @ home or go west but it would be unfair to say that because of that ALL Indian doctors in the mideast are substandard or the European doctors here for that matter...a lot of them move,again for the tax-free income,to try a new place,a new lifestyle,a life partner who's based here,there are so many things that factor into that descision...
Quality control as you rightly stated is in most cases a joke but again that doesn't apply across the board...a well trained person,wherever it is they are from,is unlikely to compromise on standards...
Quite clearly,you haven't the faintest idea what you're talking about & you haven't interacted with a lot of educated,informed,well travelled NON-WESTERNERS...probably has something to do with the fact that you're a racist bigot...THERE'S an informed decision...from a NON-WESTERNER...deal with it...
can make informed decisions,,,,others have problems with that.
I have a basic question. For how many Indians, middle east is first choice for work? Usually, those who work here are already rejected from US and european countries ( and 70% are rejected by their own country) I don't know about other fields, but the doctors working in middle east are substandard compared to their own counterparts in India and the european doctors are even more substandard to these already substandard doctors.
Now, the conclusion is that quality control is a joke here. Employing few europeans (and one or two Americans) makes things look good. But they can't afford more than few and so they employ majority asians at cheapest rates to be cost effective, And the end result is a substandard organisation which spends lots of money, has poor performance and manipulated quality control( usually through media).
Are you nuts?......no doubt I am crazy about you!
By the time someone will think of a solution, the oil will run out and we will be back home anyway :)
then what is the solution
Time,power and proper education
lol
yes, this been discussed thousand times in QL. the best answers they can come up with is that, westeners has a higher cost of living from the country they CAME FROM. But what I don't do not understand is we are NOT IN THE WEST. at least they can give us a decent or the same housing allowances as westeners. i dont mind about not having the same basic pay for the same job, but at least same housing allowances or livable
Dagway ai!
Three cheers to you.
It's happened in Kuwait and in Saudi, it's been discussed time and time again and it's a matter of economics.
That's my last post in this topic.
Your passport carries more weight than your work around here.. I am in sales, I bring twice the business that some guys from other countries bring, I get paid less than half of their salary. That's life..
Hi Alexa,
I'm asking a rethorical question about why would companies hire a 'Westerner' (I prefer to use this term) for 4 times the salary of 'Asians'.
According to a pure cost-benefit point of view, they would expect and should get a quadruple of productivity from the Westerner.
Question is, do they(companies or state for this matter) get what they bargained for?
The answer is (if indeed it is true that westerner are paid 4 times more, a proposition that need to be investigated further) a resounding YES, as we can see more westerner is arriving and based on the cost benefit principle above, companies feel that they still get ahead by hiring westerners. Here we assume that no one (companies or states) is stupid enough to prefer losing instead of winning.
There's a catch though. By 'productivity' they may not only refer to tangible things such as amount of product you produce or sales achievement. It may also include things such as prestige (ie. this real estate company is under British management) or something as cynical (as another poster put it) fear or subconcious inferiority complex. True or nor, I don't know....
Myself, If I think I am underpaid (dont really care what my colleages get), then I'll try to negotiate a better deal. If I cannot get a better deal, then I try to prove that I am underpaid by looking at a better job that give me more. If I cannot find a better job, then may be I'm paid exactly what my market worth is....... might as well shut my mouth and enjoy......
(NOte: 'paid' here mean the total compensation I get: sallary, job satisfaction,quality of live, traffic, red tapes etc).
Enough bubling past my curfew.
Adios for tonight, cheers
SK
Nobody is Perfect - I am Nobody
I think arabs are in awe of Europeans and afraid of them. I think maybe they feel inferior to them or do not want to look cheap in front of them so they give them more salary to show that they are also superior and can afford them.....even though the European guy maybe out of work and usless in his country and desperate to get some work here.He just wants to come here for a couple of years to have some fun & sun and escape the cold and rain for while and spice up his resume to resettle back with some real work experience.
At least thats what i have seen in Doha for the last 10 years. I have no grouse against them nor have i been affected adversly by them at any point of time. ........Just my opinion.
It's to do with the cost of living in home countries and other aspects.
If you look around, on the whole, a Western Expat will get more in Asia, Russia and africa also.
Sorry to say my friends that discriminations are well alive in this country. Most of the time Asians has more experience and even got higher degree of educations against Westerns. The sad reality is that most company are impressed with the way they look and converse in English...but of course!! that's their mother tongue. But let them write a proper business letter...most of them are unprofessional. Some company look also for the passport when hiring people. But you know what? If your company got nonsense recruitment personnel and system...they easily deceived by westerns. No offense to Western people but these point of view are based on facts...however some of them are qualified as well...not being unfair and speaking generally.
sabrang kidul, that looks reasonable and probably right.
Supply and demand, capitalism 101 pure and simple.
If enough well educated, well trained, well experienced, well qualified 'Asians' (Japanese usually get higher offer) refused to work for a quarter of salary of a comparable Europeans then in theory the companies will have to offer more to attract them.
Unfortunately, in practice for every Asian that refuse to work for a quarter of the European's salary there are ten more lining up to work for one-fifth.
I think the question should be re-phrased: Why would company hire a European/American/Australian/Japanese etc for four times the salary of a comparably qualified 'Asians'?????
Cheers
SK
This kind of practices could have been paced out sooner for white collar jobs however for technical jobs it could be the different in approach and superiority to do trouble shooting and problem solving. However for companys doing a simple processes and routines, theres no reason for differences in pay.
Like Alumnar said, it's racial discrimination. If 2 people are doing the same job, they should get the same wages.
*****If you haven't got anything nice to say, don't say anything at all*****
This topic has been discussed 'N' number of times in QL !!
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I don't want a Signature line to prove that I'm great !!
thats the way it is, unfortunate, but reality of favoritism in this country.
*Bunga*
maybe because the cost of living in europe is much much higher than in asia?
get married to a european.
Unfortunately it matters where you come from, not what you know or what kind of qualifications you have. If that is not racist discrimination, I don't know what is.