Expensive housing costs and school fees!
Hi!
I've been offered a banking role in Qatar. I'm at the package negotiation stage. It's a senior role in the financial services sector. I'm British, a freelancer, and currently live and work in the financial heart of London for major banks.
I'm EXTREMELY keen to work in Qatar. However, I've got to be realistic about what I should and shouldn't accept in terms of a package. I've got a wife and tow kids aged 8 and 4. I neither want to pitch myself too high or low in terms of my package negotiations.
From what I've researched, packages vary greatly, so it's hard for me to gauge what I should shoot for.
I know that it's hard for anyone (apart from the employer) to give a definitive response, but I'd really like to hear about REALISTIC expectations that you would have if you were in my shoes right now. You, no doubt, have got a better idea than me as you have already been through this process. I guess the best people to respond would be Brits who have come from the same route as me, although I would appreciate any of your opinions.
Thanks in advance!
Billy.
seems to find it agreeable though!
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"There's this thing called being so open-minded your brains drop out". - Richard Dawkins
dust and more dust, every day - do you like dusting? Walking around the streets between the lovely villas you're tripping over a fascinating variety of stinking, overflowing trash bins, rocks, rubble and dead cats. After a year I still can't get over this. Strikes me that what beauty there is must be hidden behind all the high villa walls. Doha's suburbs have an 'inside-out' look, and the observer gets to see all the rough, seamy bits.
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"There's this thing called being so open-minded your brains drop out". - Richard Dawkins
Oh Im not saying I havent spent more money in the UK at times .. I have ... but that's because I had things to spend money on!
During the first salary negotiations I went through in Qatar, whilst trying to justify an offer lower than my salary reference in front of her, the HR manager actually said to me, oh you won't need as much money here because there is no night life to spend it on! I kid you not lol.
oh yes from the perspective of things being cheaper if it's made in the region I agree.
In my situation I spent around 1500 pounds in the UK (lived there for the past 5 years), ove here I spend around 650-750 for the same things and very similar lifestyle.
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I dont know what coke costs in KSA, thats not what I mean. Brands that are licensed to be produced in KSA for sale in the region are obviously cheaper than brands that have to be imported from around the world. The issue being, only limited things are made in KSA and often they are just not the same/right anyway. The only thing I have found that I regularly buy that is cheaper here, is Olay, I've not checked where its coming from.
Amnesia, they just are not the same at all ... plus, you really don't get anywhere near the same ranges even for the same size stores (but that's a different matter). To be fair though, the new Villagio store is much better. Boot's is more, make up that costs 9.50 at home for example costs 12 here and most things are on that kinda ratio.
All the ranges in Debenhams are more, well Faith doesnt seem too much more but stuff like Coast, considerably more. The US stuff is a lot worse, quick silver etc? At least double what you will pay in the US or Australia. Touche Eclat - 20 at home 22 here.
Im used to a high paid lifestyle at home and I know for a fact that "my" lifestyle costs a lot more here than it did at home. That's not to say perhaps everyones lifestyle does but a city banker asked .. so I know he's gonna be on good money in England and hence he's asking the question from that perspective.
Alot say there is 'little' to do. Please see my other list of things to do.
I'm working hard to get my site's 'things to do and places to go' section finished.
That should satisfy people.
@tootsie... coke is cheaper in KSA...? It's 1 Riyal, 100 fils anywhere (I guess if you want to directly convert then yes it's probably 1p more...but that's only because the QR is stronger.
Next and River Island are identical if not cheaper than england. I made a point of comparing last week after I came back from the UK.
Boots on the other hand is not really a boots in my eyes. It's more like a pharmacy with boots branding.
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You will need a LOT to make it worth coming here, personally I would choose Oman any day if you can get the work - but it is much harder to get work there. It's much nicer environmentally (geography and climate) and cheaper. There's a recent thread on BE about which ME country to take a family to, I suggest you read that.
Living off compounds can be tough for family expats. A good compund will cost you minimum 18-20k. There is no such thing as a commute to Doha unless you count Al Wakra, and you do not want to live there. There are very long wait lists for some of them, as there are with the schools. Once you get kids in, they seem to be okay.
There is very little to do here. I think thats the main reason I would recommend Oman, especially if you were looking at a longer stint out in the middle east. Go to BE and search on my username, you'll find my response to many people asking your questions.
With regard to costs. Petrol is cheap, if your wife is not going to drive then getting around is not cheap. Branded goods licenced for production in KSA are cheaper, coke etc etc. Everything else western is VERY expensive import rates. Like 2-3-4 times what you will pay in Tescos. There are a ton of British high street shops here, they are all about 20-25% more than you will pay in England. Next, Boots and the like.
Traffic, on a smaller scale, but far more dangerous is as bad as London. Five months of arduous heat and uncontrolled inflation. Consider what is happening with ex-rates when negotiating too.
thanks for your kind words Alexa, i believe in great service.
You know since King Koil first started, even though rent for the store has almost doubled, we haven't raised the price by even 1 riyal for the mattresses.
If we get any complaints for staff, they're not ignored :)
One thing to say though is that I don't think I overlook things in Qatar. I've only lived in Qatar for 2 years constant (before that it was on and off), I lived in England, US, China, and Japan. Most of my life (17 years) was in Bahrain. :D
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Good luck - I hope that whatever you decide - it turns out as you hope.
*** Light travels faster than sound. That's why most people appear bright until they open their mouths.
Hahahahahahah, confused, me????? You know, I've been investigating the Mid-East using forums for a couple of months now. I'm therefore used to huge differences of opinion on them. God knows what a firt-time to any forum would construe if they experienced the answers I've got over the last 24hrs!?
Boer, thanks for your response too!
Your observations are based on your own experiences and their effect on you. This is perfectly okay. As you say, different strokes.
And yes, my kids are late teens so I can look at things quite differently and settle for the freestanding unfurnished "mansion".
I am also in the fortunate position of not having to worry about the schools issue. BTW I absolutely agree with you on that. Good schools have no openings (sometimes not even for next year!!). Schools with openings are probably not so good.
I think your somewhat more gloomy view (and that is not a criticism) also needs to be expressed. It more clearly reflects the diversity of expat experiences and views about life in Qatar. Theoretically it will help people who are considering a move here to reach a more informed decision.
In reality though, I think we have succeeded in totally confusing him...LOL.
*** Light travels faster than sound. That's why most people appear bright until they open their mouths.
I am a South African and have been here just short of 2 years. My family has just joined me (wife and 2 late teens - so school is not an issue.)
We have just moved into a huge 6 b/r villa for a rent of QR 16 500. It is probably about 11km from the area where all the banks are. The commute will be about 40 mins in morning peak traffic and about 15 to 25 mins in quieter times.
The house is absolutely beautiful and bigger than the house we had in SA (and that was over 500 m2).
Coming from a heavily taxed country, I am financially so much better off.
As Amnesia says, a lot of things are cheaper than the UK.
I would not hesitate. If I knew 5 years ago what I know today, I would have been here just short of 5 years (not just 2).
As for construction, driving etc., h*ll man, just get used to it. The financial benefit does not come for free. These are small sacrifices.
*** Light travels faster than sound. That's why most people appear bright until they open their mouths.
Wow, what a counter-arguement!
I guess I'll just have to judge for myself. I'm looking to stay in the Mid-East for an indefinate period if I like the work and lifestyle there, so I'll have enough time to make comparisons.
I really appreciate all your inputs everyone. A difference of opinion was always expected, but at least I feel more knowledgable than I did a few days ago.
PS If anyone has any photos of modern accommodation they live in, it'll be great to see. The real estate websites I've managed to find are few and far between. And they're pretty crap compared to the quality of real estate websites in the UK. But that's to be expected in a less developed country. I hear that although accommodation is relatively expensive in Doha, you get much more for your money there compared to London. People say that the size and quality of fittings is way better in Qatar.
@expat boy and now I'll refer you back to my site to see price comparisons of countries. As I mentioned, people LOVE to exaggerate.
1. Very expensive,prices like New York or London, but is till only Qatar!
Electronics are cheap 30% cheaper than England
Brand names are MUCH cheaper.
When I see people who say it's expensive I wonder if they're going to 5 star restaurants and buying Gucci all the time.
Food is cheaper!
Petrol cheaper!
The only thing expensive is rent if you live closer to the center of the city.
2. Crappy housing, but still very expensive.
Mine is brand new, 1 bedroom, and costs me 4000QR. Still a bit expensive but it's great.
You have to shop around. I do admit there are some crap houses, but we're not living in a bubble here.
3. Bad infrastructure. Hospitals are at best mediocre, no school spaces,some really bad schools,shopping..so so etc.
The new hospitals (one of the most advanced in the world) are being completed in a few months time.
Public hospitals are almost always mediocre. Go to a private one.
How is 'some really bad schools' a con? Don't go to those schools.
See my site again for a huge list of schools.
4. Entertainment, after 3 weeks you have seen and done it all, and probably will refrain from repeating it.
I lived in Shanghai, Cali, and London for a long time. After 3 weeks ANYWHERE, you've done it all!
5. If you are sensitive about human rights...stay away!
Sadly she hasn't seen the newly formed Human Rights Authority. It's brand new and they have their issues, but they're getting everything on track.
The newly formed Womans Rights Authority will also be opened soon.
6. Driving...a daily suicide mission..
Again, it was just in October that the new laws were passed. Roundabouts are being replaced with traffic lights and more cameras everywhere. The new laws are much more stricter.
When people refer to driving as a suicide mission, I actually fear THEM more...
I've driven in Qatar for years now and I've never had an accident. Yes there are some stupid drivers, (blue collar workers usually), but pay attention and you're safe! In the UK, cars would speed milimeters from your car as if inviting you to crash!
7. Roads..construction, construction, construction...and no end in sight...once they finished one road,they dig up again...why ? Well search me...maybe they forgot something???
It's a developing country! It wants to be great! Of COURSE there has to be construction. In 6 months, most of the skyscrapers will be completed by the way. They don't dig up the road for fun and I now know you don't understand the way it works.
Qatar is a hot country, the asphault needs to cool down to harden without cracking. They place TWO layers of asphault. The first layer is the main layer and the second layer is to protect the first layer from the elements. After a certain amount of time, they remove the second layer OR recompact it.
8. Customer service...Huh? Say what??
Come on over to my shop at Salwa road, if my staff are rude, I'll give you a free mattress!
For God's sake, stop generalizing!
9. Greed, greed and more greed...will they soon charge for the air we breathe?
Is it greed? The country doesn't have taxes, electricity and water is cheaper than most countries, petrol is practically cheaper than water, and services are reasonable.
When it comes to businesses and rent, if prices go up, it's because people are willing to pay for it!
You need to understand the basics of business I'm afraid.
10. Who ever you talk to, to get what ever it may be, fixed...deaf ears all around..or is it selective hearing?
Is that true? WHOEVER? Strong words. I would like to know your secret to meeting every single person in Qatar.
I sell iPhones in my mobile store, I fix every mobile free of charge and give you a smile as well.
Come over to KingKoil with a problem and it'll be sorted straight away.
Point is, smile and be positive. If you have a few bad experiences, don't generalize. I'm sorry you seem to have had some bad experiences, but don't blame the whole country for your issues!
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OMG, that sounds bad!!!
Thanks a lot for listing all these!
I'm sure you mean this website: http://britishexpats.com/
The one you supplied is on offer for sale.
I've been checking out http://britishexpats.com/ and the responses you guys gave me today are consistent with folks there.
Alexa, seeing as you really seem to like Oman, can you give me your top 5 or 10 reasons for recommending it as a place to live, work and bring up a family as opposed to Qatar?
Thanks again, Alexa! I'll try that website.
If there's anyone else out there who can answer my last question I'd appreciate it.
Does Oman pay the same kind of salary and allowances? From the little research I've done, rental seems to be cheaper there. Is that right?
Thanks for your responses, Alexa and Amnesia! It's very consistent to what I'm hearing from other folks.
The offer I've got is from a bank. I guess this won't radically change your answers. However, I think I may have a choice about living in either Qatar or Oman. I guess this is a silly question (seeing as this is QL), but what is better about Qatar when compared with Oman?
And how far away, in kilometres or miles, would I have to live from the centre of Doha to be able to realise the cheaper accommodation rates of about 15,000 QR? I've always had to travel at least 15 miles (24 km) to get to any place I've worked in London, so I bet Qatari commuting won't be as bad.
As with all regions, rent and fees vary from region to region and your expectation.
Comparing to London, you'll get a much bigger place than you will in London.
Some people here love to generalize but I'll tell you that it's not necessary.
Alexa advised 20k + but I'd say that is for a compound and a pretty nice place. If you can live a bit further from central Doha I'd say 14k - 18k could get you a nice 3-4 bedroom villa and that is also dependant on whether or not you want to be in a compound (which expats prefer).
Expats are lucky because you guys get alot of accommodation in your package. As a Qatari, I get 3k only for housing. (which is hardly anything). (then again, my 1 bedroom apartment in a new compound costs me 4k which is pretty nice).
Take a look at my site for more details.
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