Doha debates on Muslim marriage

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has completely lost touch with traditional Islam and confused it with this modern day Islamic Victorianism. If you don't think there was romance between the Prophet and Aisha, and that it was sweet, then you have been reading too many Saudi propaganda pamphlets and not enough seerah.

How can you fall in love with the Creator except by falling in love with His creation and taking the bridge from the one to the other?

Love is only blind for some. And for those, even if they refuse to love they will still be blind.

by being worded in an intentionally ambiguous way: "A Muslim woman should be free to marry the man of her choice."

Of course not. For example, if that man does not want to marry her, then she is not free to marry him, even if he is "her choice." OH, but we mean free to marry him "ON condition that..." So, clearly the question is not about freedom, but about the conditions. And it becomes clear that the reality of topic (whether re Muslim or otherwise) becomes more complicated than the thoughts we are allowed to have by the format of the discussion. Then we have to vote: "FREEDOM? Yes or No!" Complete garbage.

Specifically, it was never clear whether the issue was simply about the tribalism and racism plaguing the Arabs today and restricting their marriage practices (clearly against Islam) or about getting to do whatever you want and be free of any social or other consequences (clearly impossible anywhere in the world). As a result, it was a typical media-style intellectually constricted incoherent chatter session.

why Non Muslims People who even not get married interfere our Islamic rules which we obey & came Directly from Allah in our Quran , better mind their own Business & get even responsible to get Married & have a Family of your own 1st then ask to understand other Religions rules but don`t attack.

I disagree. I don't think that a mature Muslim society is more likely than a western society to provide all these things you mentioned -- "a more stable marriage, fewer single mothers, fewer teenage pregnancies, the security of a strong marriage, a secure future for the children, strong support from extended family, morally sound family members..."

Fewer single mothers? Sure -- but only because in most Muslim societies it's illegal to be a single (unwed) mother.

Fewer teen pregnancies? Are we considering the fact that many teens get married in Muslim societies (or do you mean unwed teen mothers?)?

A secure future for the children? Define secure...

Morally sound family members? Surely you jest if you actually think that Muslim society produces more morally sound individuals than western society. I think both have enough messed up people to go head to head with one another (at least in the west most people don't wear their religion on their sleeves so they come off looking like hypocrites). The same bad stuff happens here as there -- people just choose not to talk about it or recognize it openly.

I have no doubt a lot of arranged marriages grow to become deeply loving, committed relationships. I have several friends who have arranged marriages, and they seem quite satisfied. And yes, it's hard to compare the two societies because divorce in most Islamic cultures carries with it a certain stigma that it doesn't in the west (so it certainly happens less frequently here). And though you think the numbers speak for themselves (divorce is more common in the west), I think it's hard to ignore the contributing factors that CLEARLY influence the frequency or infrequency of it happening in the two societies.

Could my parents choose a suitable man for me to marry? Certainly -- I know they would choose wisely and pick a man who would take good care of me. But would he attract me? Share my interests and outlooks on issues, my sense of humor? Get my engines revved up? Probably not. Most likely it would be a passionless marriage to a swell guy who I'd be better off having as a friend, and I would forever be attracted to other men while feeling obligated and pressured to stay with the one I was bound to.

And imagining that this is how I would feel, I certainly wouldn't want to sign on to be with a man who would react this same way to me.

Who wants to feel like someone is only with them because they're obligated to? Not me.

"Most plain girls are virtuous because of the scarcity of opportunity to be otherwise."

-- Maya Angelou

Probably the most lucid answer yet.

well by reading the comments,its little difficult to understnd wat was main focus of the thread .anyway the topic was about should women have the right to choce their partner.i think its really an important and serious discussion.islam definetly allow women to marry of their own choice (ofcourse by keeping certain limits and condition).she should hav the the right to tell her parents or elders that she want to marry this guy and y.but unfortunetly most of the time and specially in muslim countries , more specificly south asian countries like pakistan india and gulf countries girls dont hav this right.and its seem very bad if girl shows her interst toward a particular guy.most of the time parents and brothers cant bear this thing.for this first of all we need to educate our common fathers and brothers that islam completely give women the right to select her partner.so always ask ur daughter or ur sister if she like sombody or thinks he can b good partner.its the duty of parents and brothers to ask her b4 marriage,if she likes sombody else then its the responsibilty of elders and brothers to judge that guy and make an honest assesment.ofcourse u hav to c his character, job,habits age all sort of things.

but the main thing is to change the mind set of each muslim man and to educate them and tell them its not bad if women shows intersts towards somone.ofcourse after that u have the right to judge him.there should b proper discussion in family with open minds,honesty and justice irrespective of racism which exists more in south asian and gulf countries.its very sad that these countries r exactly opposite from the teach Prophet(p.b.u.h).

No need to mention that islam believes in love (but in real lov in its original form not in lust).

marriage is very important decision so both girl and their parents should hav to honestly decide and carefully observe the guy on basis of his character,his religious activities,honesty,dealings and treatments with others young and old,job,and so many other things.if the focus is only on these things and the guy passed this test its really doesnt matters whether the women select it or ur parents select it.but women can pin point him.

BUT

AGAIN but

If women like sombody who she dont know much and during this test the guy will b found of bad character and other negative qualities then parents ofcourse can reject it and try to convince their daughter or sister that we cant let u marry with this guy due to these negative things.but just like i said it should b honest assesment but atleast give her the right to show u the partner which she likes

you go ahead and do just that...

the one's who know you... know you are confused

the one's who don't know you, would probably think you are NonMuslim any way...

Great, now Brad Pit poster will be sold out. and No, that dosen't happens in Christianity as far as I can recall. Women are free to marry someone decent as they want.

posting as I please :-)

I refuse to drink the kool-aid! -- PM

maybe if you don't want to defend yourself against so many people... maybe you should keep your thoughts to yourself and have them sorted out before you hang it out to dry...

I do not think the Prophets (pbut) have polluted God's message.

And frankly, I am tired of defending myself to vermin like you.

I refuse to drink the kool-aid! -- PM

Firstly, listen carefully when I say this... don't say the shahadah for me or any one else's sake, say it for your own sake...

Secondly, there is a lot to the shahadah than just saying the two lines

Anyway, in saying that the religion has been polluted by men(which is a very sexist statement), please do bear in mind that the Prophets were all men

And if the religion were so polluted, what religion is it that you have converted in to?... as defined by who?

just don't like to engage in circular talks. You said you have hard time believing and now you say you have no doubt. Anyway, thats good for you if you have overcome that difficulty..

Read it is context: "I have a hard time believing that God would want women to be subjugated" means I don't think God wants women to be subjugated in the way many Muslim men have interpreted Islam.

"I am not in doubt" is pretty clear, don't you think?

Don't you think PM it's God who should accept us?

Yes and I hope He accepts my best efforts.

Now a question for you: What are you getting out of these attacks on me?

I refuse to drink the kool-aid! -- PM

Yes, I think Islam has been polluted as it has been shaped by men.

And yes, I think there is a lack of clarity on the issue all around the idea of who is a believer and who is an idolator. Obviously, the majority do not agree with me, but indeed some do. I would not advise anyone to marry or not based on my opinion; but I would make my own choices.

Do I need to make my shahadah for you, VERMIN?

I refuse to drink the kool-aid! -- PM

is that you have to apply islamic rules in an Islamic context and thats then they all fit together

When those who live in a western context try to apply for instance the idea of arranged marriages, it seems unthinkable and barbarian to them

Yet the fact remains that there quite a few people even on this thread who have good things to say about arranged marriages and divorce rates in arranged marriages are much lower than in love marriages...

Now you might say that's because divorce is shunned in the East

However, the bottomline remains...

The divorce rate is very low in many countries that have pre-arranged marriage. The divorce rate is very high in countries where people base their marriage decisions on love.

http://www.nytimes.com/2000/02/18/opinion/l-i-take-this-man-for-richer-only-886157.html

Anyway, one of the risks that you take in trying to apply Islam in a non-Islamic context is that you tend to analyze certain aspects of it in isolation

ie. you tend to look at the limitations that it seems to impose on women relative to a western context without looking at the privileges that it provides to women relative to a western context...

ie. a more stable marriage, fewer single mothers, fewer teenage pregnancies, the security of a strong marriage, a secure future for the children, strong support from extended family, morally sound family members...

Now one can't say that ALL Muslim marriages will have all those things I just said... and I certainly don't mean to say that a non-Muslim marriage WILL NOT have any of these things... What I mean to say is that in a mature Muslim society, you are more likely to have these benefits than in a non-Muslim one...

Again I quote you...

"I would remind you that Christianity, Judaism and Islam were all shaped by men during their formative years when women were subjugated by men"

Hmmmm... so you think Islam are like Christianity and Judaism in that it has been shaped by men and therefore been polluted

Well that's odd cos the Quran says “...This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favor upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.”

Now you don't mean to say that God perfected Islam and completed his favour on humans only for it to be corrupted later on by MEN...

or do you think the Quran itself has been compromised? or do you not believe in the Quran itself? Is it that you just believe in the oneness of God and Prophet Muhammad being the messenger?

But when I look around the Islamic world and see women who cannot freely choose who their life partner will be, women who need their brother's/father's/husband's permission to continue their education, drive, or travel freely abroad, then it certainly begs the question of what Islam's aim, then, is.

Islam doesn't provide this same level of "support" (the assigning of duties to others that you spoke of) for dependent men as it does for women -- which makes me believe that at the very least Islam thinks that women are more prone to being dependent than men.

And it certainly makes no exceptions to these provisions for women who ARE more independent (e.g., they can't bypass getting a male's permission for certain things).

So really, whether it is Islam's aim or not, the end result is that it infantilizes women to a much larger degree that it does men.

"Most plain girls are virtuous because of the scarcity of opportunity to be otherwise."

-- Maya Angelou

I quote one of your statements :

"It is clear that traditionally the majority of Muslims think it is okay for a Muslim man to marry from the People of the Book, but not for a Muslim woman to do so. Whether this is what Allah really means, is unknown to us so as always we follow to the best of our ability."

You seem to imply that there is a lack of clarity on whether a Muslim woman is allowed to marry a non-Muslim in Islam... Is that so?

Muslim women should marry whoever they are being told by their parents and society. And then they can divorce and be happy for ever after!

THE END

Azam, I'm just glad that my girlfriend can (and has)changed a tire on the car, and has a good knowledge of the car.

I dread the idea of her car breaking down and her being left by the side of the road, waiting helplessly until help arrives. As it is she can take care of herself, and that gives me comfort.

Azam,

I am not in doubt either.

I do admire people like PM who is able to argument rationally her thoughts instead of imposing them using the only tool some appear to have here - outdated stereotypes!

I know some men who can't boil water, don't know the first thing about doing laundry, and couldn't take care of their kids on their own to save their life.

Does this mean that men are complete incompetents? No, though there are some out there who probably fit that description, just as there are women. I think it all boils down to whether or not one was raised to know how to take care of one's self or not.

Personally, I think these types of things are basic life skills that everyone should learn, just like it's important to know how to swim, how to drive a stick shift, how to sew on a button or change a tire.

And I would posit that people who don't teach these things to ALL their children are being remiss. In the real world many marriages fail and people get divorced, so both men and women better know how to take care of themselves without a partner.

"Most plain girls are virtuous because of the scarcity of opportunity to be otherwise."

-- Maya Angelou

but it is not my place to tell others what to believe and what is right and wrong. Maybe you would like to do that, but I do not.

And I don't agree that Islam is not inclusive of the West and is cultural. Islam is for all times and places -- including the West.

I became a Muslim when I made my shahadah. I believe there is only one God and Mohammad is his Prophet. If that is not enough for you and you choose not to accept me as one, then that is on you, Azam; not me.

I refuse to drink the kool-aid! -- PM

If God wanted women to be ruled by men, and totally reliant upon men to support them and make their decisions, women would be bumbling idiots with no brains.

However, they aren't. Their brains are the same as a man's.

If God made women capable of leading their own lives without being reliant on men, then I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that this was His will, rather than to presume that women are helpless excuses for humans, which seems to be the prevailing opinion amongst certain people.

but I would remind you that Christianity, Judaism and Islam were all shaped by men during their formative years when women were subjugated by men. It doesn't surprise me one bit that the standard interpretations by male "scholars" and religious leaders also subjugate women. I just have a hard time believing that this is in keeping with what God has planned.

I refuse to drink the kool-aid! -- PM

I suspect God is more concerned that we marry good people who believe in Him.

What do you think?

I refuse to drink the kool-aid! -- PM

I sense a bit of the "Devinci Code" coming on here..

Clearly if all the Imams have agreed to this practice, then there must be more substance to this than we as lay persons are able to find.

The maternal or paternal transferance of religion is a side issue.

In Muslim scripture, Muslim men are told 'not to marry idolatresses':

And do not marry the idolatresses until they believe, and certainly a believing maid is better than an idolatress woman, even though she should please you; and do not give (believing women) in marriage to idolaters until they believe, and certainly a believing servant is better than an idolater, even though he should please you; these invite to the fire, and Allah invites to the garden and to forgiveness by His will, and makes clear His communications to men, that they may be mindful. S. 2:221 Shakir

Christians and Jews are described as idolaters:

O ye who believe! surely, the idolaters are unclean (al-mushrikoona najasun). So they shall not approach the Sacred Mosque after this year of theirs. And if you fear poverty, ALLAH will enrich you out of HIS bounty, if HE pleases. Surely, ALLAH is All-Knowing, Wise. Fight those from among the people of the Book, who believe not in ALLAH, nor in the Last Day, nor hold as unlawful what ALLAH and HIS Messenger have declared to be unlawful, nor follow the true religion, until they pay the tax considering it a favour and acknowledge their subjection. And the Jews say, ‘Ezra is the son of ALLAH,’ and the Christians say, ‘the Messiah is the son of ALLAH;’ that is what they say with their mouths. They only imitate the saying of those who disbelieved (kafaroo) before them. ALLAH's curse be on them! How they are turned away. They have taken their priest and their monks for lords besides ALLAH. And so have they taken the Messiah, son of Mary. And they were not commanded but to worship the One God. There is no God but HE. Holy is HE far above what they associate (yushrikoona) with Him! They seek to extinguish the light of ALLAH with their mouths; but ALLAH refuses but to perfect HIS light, though the disbelievers (al-kafiroona) may resent it. HE it is Who has sent HIS Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth, that HE may make it prevail over every other religion, even though the idolaters (al-mushrikoona) may resent it. S. 9:28-33 Sher Ali

So it would seem rather clear to me that men should not be allowed to marry Christians and Jews.

Now, can someone show me the loophole that allows men to marry Christians and Jew, but doesn't allow women the same right?

I am answering questions of the non-Muslims to the best of my ability. It is clear that traditionally the majority of Muslims think it is okay for a Muslim man to marry from the People of the Book, but not for a Muslim woman to do so. Whether this is what Allah really means, is unknown to us so as always we follow to the best of our ability.

I refuse to drink the kool-aid! -- PM

In Judaism, a child's faith is that of his mother. However, if she marries a Muslim, then that is overridden by the male's faith.

The whole issue hinges on who the Mushrikeen are and one would think that would apply to both men and women. It is important to note, though, that regardless of what seems to make sense to you or me, the majority of Muslims follow certain "scholars" and they have traditionally interpreted the religion to restrict Muslim women from marrying anyone but another Muslim. And on top of that, they are not raised to question and think critically; so the status quo tends to be reinforced.

I refuse to drink the kool-aid! -- PM

just stay out of it. All you ever do is post copy/paste and I seriously doubt you even understand that -- unless it is about the black cumin seed you are trying to sell.

I refuse to drink the kool-aid! -- PM

Q- At the same time, if that is the case, then why is it that some Christians and Jews will also be in Paradise according to the Quran?

A- The Age

In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.

[103.1] I swear by the time,

[103.2] Most surely man is in loss,

[103.3] Except those who believe and do good, and enjoin on each other truth, and enjoin on each other patience.

Here's an Islamic scholar who believes that:

Muslim women can marry Jewish or Christian Men

Muslim women don't have to cover their face and hair

Muslim women can lead prayers

Muslim women are just as reliable as Muslim men in court cases

Drinking alcohol is acceptable in some circumstance.

Revolutionary thinking...

http://www.sudantribune.com/article.php3?id_article=15021

ummjake,

agree with you.

if he was the rule, islam would be more respected and the world would stand more chances to be at peace.

He's a revolutionary thinker, that one is! Would be nice if his thinking was the rule rather than the exception...

"Most plain girls are virtuous because of the scarcity of opportunity to be otherwise."

-- Maya Angelou

Either I fail to grasp this, or this is really hypocritical?

So when a Muslim man marries a Christian woman, he's marrying a believer from the book, and that's okay and sanctioned by the religion.

But should a Muslim woman want to marry a Christian man, then the Christian is viewed by scholars as being an idolater/non-believer and not suitable.

Wouldn't it be more equitable to say that NO Muslim, man or woman, can marry outside the religion??

Seems like a rather feeble argument.

Are Christians and Jews believers or non-believers?

Are Christians and Jews idolaters or not?

If Christians and Jews are mushrik and kafir or whatever, then surely Muslim males shouldn't be allowed to marry them, right?

Or am I missing something fundamental here??

And that is the whole point of contention by some. Are Believers only Muslims or can they be People of the Book (Christians and Jews). The majority of scholars (who are men, btw) say that Believers are only Muslims. In other words, Christians and Jews would not be accepted as Believers.

At the same time, if that is the case, then why is it that some Christians and Jews will also be in Paradise according to the Quran? They will be in Paradise because they believe in God and live a good life that pleases Him. So the question is -- Who are the Believers; and this is what is crucial in dealing with the marriages of Muslims.

The most common explanation given is that children follow the father's religion; so that is why it is acceptable for Muslim men to marry Christians and Jews. Because theoretically the children would be Muslims like their father. However, Jews follow the religion of their mother according to Jewish Law which far predates the Prophet (saw). So those children born to a Jewish mother and Muslim father would be viewed as Jews, according to the mother's family. This makes it a problem to use children's religion as a justification for allowing Muslim men to marry Jews and not Muslim women to marry Jews.

I refuse to drink the kool-aid! -- PM

Again we are getting way off topic.

I would just like someone to clarify one aspect for me:

Is there anything in Islamic scriptures (Quran, Hadith etc) that stipulates clearly that a Muslim woman cannot marry a non Muslim man ?

First of all, what do you mean "Western Religion"?

And you obviously don't know enough about Christianity to speak on the subject. Where does it say that women should be beheaded for not covering their hair? In the New Testament it is discouraged for a woman to pray without covering her head; but it certainly doesn't say she should be beheaded for not covering.

I refuse to drink the kool-aid! -- PM

I don't know which is funnier, when he's he's spurting random religious texts that mean nothing to most people, or when he actually manages to come up with a thought of his own.

Either way it makes me laugh!!

ha ha ha ha ha, have you considered the circus?!

Western religion is very small and cheap because it reduces length of cloth from women wears. But according to the holy book of Bible, if a woman does not cover her head and shows her hair, her head hair will be removed by the religious authorities.

It should be remembered

Great religion for women!!!!!!! I feel sorry for those women trapped in those men-made rules and are able to be conscious about their own trap!

For those women unable of the trap, all fine for them!

Again I say its not possible. Muslim women cannot marry non-Muslim men.

[36.6] That you may warn a people whose fathers were not warned, so they are heedless.

[36.7] Certainly the word has proved true of most of them, so they do not believe.

[36.8] Surely We have placed chains on their necks, and these reach up to their chins, so they have their heads raised aloft.

[36.9] And We have made before them a barrier and a barrier behind them, then We have covered them over so that they do not see.

[36.10] And it is alike to them whether you warn them or warn them not: they do not believe.

[36.11] You can only warn him who follows the reminder and fears the Beneficent God in secret; so announce to him forgiveness and an honorable reward.

He's like some mindless robot that just spits out pre-programmed responses without the ability to think critically for himself.

Scary.

[57.13] On the day when the hypocritical men and the hypocritical women will say to those who believe: Wait for us, that we may have light from your light; it shall be said: Turn back and seek a light. Then separation would be brought about between them, with a wall having a door in it; (as for) the inside of it, there shall be mercy in it, and (as for) the outside of it, before it there shall be punishment.

lol... I start to believe that the guy doesn't even understand English, all he can do is copy-paste extracts of scripts nothing to do with your questions. He probably assumes that by his silly copy-pastes, we may confuse him with a high Islamic authority... it’s just pathetic, but what can we expect!

I gave up on him a few comments ago ;)

If you refer www.irf.net and watch Dr. Zakir Naik vedio DVDs then you will surely find out no contradictions in the holy book of Qur'an.

[7.179] And certainly We have created for hell many of the jinn and the men; they have hearts with which they do not understand, and they have eyes with which they do not see, and they have ears with which they do not hear; they are as cattle, nay, they are in worse errors; these are the heedless ones.

[2.2] This Book, there is no doubt in it, is a guide to those who guard (against evil).

Don't worry, one will surely come along soon -- lol

I refuse to drink the kool-aid! -- PM

Baaaaa. Baaaaa. Baaaaaa. Baaaaaa.

... what are all these sheep doing in this thread?

Baaaaa. Baaaaa. Baaaaaa. Baaaaaa.

Baaaaa. Baaaaa. Baaaaaa. Baaaaaa.

Why dont you actually think for yerself and post yer own feelings instead of blindly pasting passages.

---------------------------------------------------------

I think you have me confused with someone who gives a sh1t.

"Most plain girls are virtuous because of the scarcity of opportunity to be otherwise."

-- Maya Angelou

[2.62] Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.

[2.111] And they say: None shall enter the garden (or paradise) except he who is a Jew or a Christian. These are their vain desires. Say: Bring your proof if you are truthful.

[2.113] And the Jews say: The Christians do not follow anything (good) and the Christians say: The Jews do not follow anything (good) while they recite the (same) Book. Even thus say those who have no knowledge, like to what they say; so Allah shall judge between them on the day of resurrection in what they differ.

[2.120] And the Jews will not be pleased with you, nor the Christians until you follow their religion. Say: Surely Allah's guidance, that is the (true) guidance. And if you follow their desires after the knowledge that has come to you, you shall have no guardian from Allah, nor any helper.

[2.135] And they say: Be Jews or Christians, you will be on the right course. Say: Nay! (we follow) the religion of Ibrahim, the Hanif, and he was not one of the polytheists.

[2.140] Nay! do you say that Ibrahim and Ismail and Yaqoub and the tribes were Jews or Christians? Say: Are you better knowing or Allah? And who is more unjust than he who conceals a testimony that he has from Allah? And Allah is not at all heedless of what you do.

Ummjake, why don't you just ask Allah how to consult Allah. Allah has the answers to all your questions, so direct your questions to Allah.

Simple circular reasoning. Works for most religous questions.

He'll give me some quote from this sura or that ayat that is completely nebulous, and that will be my answer.

LOL!

"Most plain girls are virtuous because of the scarcity of opportunity to be otherwise."

-- Maya Angelou

ummjake,

lol...Moin will answer to your questions.

how does one consult Allah? And how are you supposed to know if Allah decides that this person is right for you?

Does he send a burning bush as a sign? Will it just 'feel right' to you in your gut so you know to proceed with things? Do you randomly open the Koran to a page and read what that page says and intuit what that means in regards to your question?

And if you later end up divorcing this person, does that mean that Allah was wrong? Or did you simply misinterpret his signal to you? Or was it a lesson that Allah gave you to be with this "wrong" person for a period of time to teach you something else?

"Most plain girls are virtuous because of the scarcity of opportunity to be otherwise."

-- Maya Angelou

Islam means peace

The most authentic book on the face of the earth is the holy book of Qur'an. Why? Because the book invites people to test it on the falsification test.

- If you are in some doubt about this book of Quran then make a few verses similar those of the book (see in Quran, Chapter-2, Verses-22, 23, 24). www.sultan.org

Second thing is practices of the last prophet (PBUH).

If you hold these two things firmly, you need no other source for Islam.

Otherwise devil is very claver. He will enter hell and wants all of us for the same place.

If you find suitable match (through any matrimonial websites/community/masjids/social gatherings and for some in the CLUBS)then its best to consult Allah

We have to offer tWo units of Prayer Istekhara (seeking counsel) and Allah will decide if he is right for you

PERIOD

PM,

People with rational, logic and intelligent arguments like you, deserve being listened to, unfortunately it’s not a common thing in some of the posts here.

I also did admire the speaker Asra Nomani.

Both of you are Muslim women but none of you judge and impose and if Muslims would come across more like this (including, not killing if you leave the religion), Islam would probably be more respected in the world!

You are correct.

Following any religion entails some sort of subservience on one's part.

Most converts/reverts I have met are stronger in their faith and at ease with themselves because they have taken the time and trouble to study and reserach the religion they are adopting.

Your last sentence says it all. When following any religion, we are answerable to God only. How we comply is up to the individual although there are "sholars / theologians" available to offer advice.

back in time and left those comic books in the hands of that guy on the mountaintop and those shephards!!

(calling people to islam) they do not emphasize control and negativity. They emphasize monotheism, the idea of the direct relationship with God and the idea that Islam is a peaceful, loving relationship. You are taught to focus on these aspects and frankly, now that I look back at it, I do not think I was in anyway properly prepared for all that being a Muslim would come to entail in the minds of many Muslims. Although I knew about the Sunnah and Hadith (from my own studies), I took courses at QCPI before making my shahada in the court here and they NEVER mentioned these things; instead telling me to focus on tawheed (monotheism), reading the tafisr ("Scholarly" explanation) of Quran (translation); and learning how to "pray in Arabic " which at that point meant memorizing certain sounds in a sequence so I could presumably fulfill God's prayer requirements (as according to the tradition of Islam, it seems that He will not accept them unless they are in Arabic). I accepted this and it wasn't until later that I started running into many issues that I have struggled to reconcile.

Looking back on it, I would do many things differently in practicing dawah. I do think it's very important to emphasize those things which people will find difficult so the one converting will have the chance to become used to certain things before committing (especially since the standard interpretation of Islam states that leaving the religion results in a death sentence).

As far as compliance goes, it would seem that the whole point is to comply with what God wants of us. Unfortunately, it seems to now emphasize complying with people who we trust know what God wants. And that opens a lot of problematic doors.

I refuse to drink the kool-aid! -- PM

Moin,

lol... you sure are funny...lol.

nothing we can do about it and that is how all discussions/debates about islam, with Muslims, end.

lol....

Yasin

[36.60] Did I not charge you, O children of Adam ! that you should not serve the Shaitan? Surely he is your open enemy,

PM,

I would say - following someone blindly (no matter who he is, as he is only a human being just like all of us), is bad. OK, I agree with you that it is not as bad as when people impose/force their believes on others!

Nothing to do with the topic, but generally speaking, as a non religious person, I find the people that practice Buddhism (as an example) much more tolerant and respectful than those who practice religions that were founded in the middle east.

The vibes from Buddhism, are peaceful, genuine spirituality, one never senses any pressure to adhere or never feels that he is labeled as infidel. As the vibes we get from Islam, are not always like this.

I wonder how, would Islam attract new people, with so much control and negative vibes?! Often the image of compliance with this religion is no more than a mask to show others compliance while inside the person, there is a lot of frustration and unhappiness. The constant interior debate between what they are and what they need to show!

Just a thought resulting from the observation of the world...

And that is the crux of the matter :-)

I refuse to drink the kool-aid! -- PM

My bad. I am slow as usual - but a believer :)

The definition of Believers is what everything hinges on (as has been discussed).

I refuse to drink the kool-aid! -- PM

Back to the discussion, the issue is whether People of the Book are Believers and lawful. The majority say not, but some say yes. Speed's response is consistent with that of many Muslims. They choose a scholar (or scholars) that they deem reliable and follow their interpretation. Any choice to follow someone of your own free will is not a bad thing in my opinion. It's only bad when people try to force that on others (which just to be clear, is not what I see Speed or even Yasir Qadhi doing).

There is a process whereby interpretation and implementation of Quran and Hadith can be reviewed -- even after consensus has been reached. This is called ijtihad. However, it takes a call from the so-called scholars to institute ijtihad and they do not have a record of doing so often or recently. And really, if they are indoctrinated in the whole system, why should they?

I refuse to drink the kool-aid! -- PM

Yes, i spent a few hours googling :))

---------------------------------------------------------

I think you have me confused with someone who gives a sh1t.

Mr. Moin appears to be unable to have a rational argument, all he does is copy-paste the scripts... in that perspective, no need to have any knowledge as long as one memorizes the entire Koran, that seems to be sufficient to have any discussion about Islam!

As I said, impossible to have an open discussion with Muslims about Islam, as for them Islam is not debatable, they submit 100% to what they are imposed by the "Consensus Supreme".

---------------------------------------------------------

I think you have me confused with someone who gives a sh1t.

I think the discussion is taking a turn..

Anyway, from what i've been able to find out :

They are not lawful (wives) for the unbelievers, nor are the unbelievers lawful (husbands) for them... (Al-Mumtahina:10)

Nor marry (your girls) to unbelievers until they believe... (Al-Baqara:221)

If we work from the premise that Islam DOES NOT indeed allow marriage of a Muslim woman to a non Muslim man, then the debate will be more fruitful.

I want to see proper written proof.

Cos it seems you are all contradicting each other on what the quran says or doesnt say.

---------------------------------------------------------

I think you have me confused with someone who gives a sh1t.

The Cow

[2.18] Deaf, dumb (and) blind, so they will not turn back.

[2.171] And the parable of those who disbelieve is as the parable of one who calls out to that which hears no more than a call and a cry; deaf, dumb (and) blind, so they do not understand.

The Children of Israel

[17.97] And whomsoever Allah guides, he is the follower of the right way, and whomsoever He causes to err, you shall not find for him guardians besides Him; and We will gather them together on the day of resurrection on their faces, blind and dumb and deaf; their abode is hell; whenever it becomes allayed We will add to their burning.

The thing is, Mr Paul, there is no written proof that a muslim woman cannot marry a non-muslim man.

For Pete's sake, there's not even any spoken proof from the Prophet (pbuh) to that end.

It's all just been made up by male Islamic scholars to stop women from controlling their own lives.

Mr Paul,

As you probably realized by now, it's impossible to have an open discussion about Islam, with Muslims.

a non muslim manplease.

---------------------------------------------------------

I think you have me confused with someone who gives a sh1t.

Read my previous comments to find your awnsers

The problem is that some men (even if they are entitled as Senior Muslim Scholars or Popes) think that they can speak on behalf of god and even worse, impose their interpretations on others.

The problem with religious education is that it trains/forms people to always accept what those men say, with no individual critical thinking personal assessments.

One way educational stream and total submission are the best friends of any religion!

a non Muslim....

Islam is very easy to understand, we have complicated ourself. We have set our own RULES in Islam.

If you have any doubt, you have a right to approach any of the Islamic Scholar who can brief you.

Does Quran tells you how to Pray five times a day? NO. it was taught to us by Prophet Mohammad(PBUH).

Similarly there are several places where Allah(SW) has given indications but never give any further details in Quran, therefore, being a TRUE follower we should not depend ONLY on Quran or just hold one verse of Quran and take it for granted.

WE should approach one of our Senior Muslim Scholar (such as Marjah/Imam/Mufti) for any clarification not rely only on Quran verses, Quran cannot be understood completely without the Tafsir and without True Hadith of Prophet Mohammad (SW).

I do respect the opinion of others but If I have any doubt or clarification in Quran and Hadith I follow and seek guidance from our Scholars who I follow only :-)

Just by reading online comments from someone you don't know does not means that you should agree with the unreliable comments immediately without giving a second thought.

fubar,

exactly, the problem here is that some men think that they can speak on behalf of god and even worse, impose their interpretations on others.

Asra Nomani, the most eloquent speaker in the Doha debates, as a Muslim woman, defended that.

I would be interested to see which bit of the Koran specifically says, in no uncertain terms, that a Muslim woman CANNOT marry a non-Muslim man.

As far as I am aware, there is nothing in the Koran about this, but Muslim men have just imposed their will over Muslim women to get their own way.

The discussion is between you and me, two human beings, not between me and the almighty.

You have not answered my questions:

How about Muslim women being free to marry non Muslim men?

Have you been indoctrinated on this one, or is it not written in the Koran?

Who is with more knowledge? You or the Almighty. If anything is beyond you or your mind, it will not mean that it is not applicable today. For this you can refer www.irf.net

Brit,

As you probably recall Mr.Yasir Qadhi, said that once the "consensus' has been reached, it could never ever ever be reverted!

You probably recall as well that Mr.Yasir Qadhi said, “to be Muslim” means “to submit” (to the official (his) interpretation of the metaphorical language used in the Koran)! Submission does not allow you to think out of the BOX, you know that!

I would agree with the majority of your comments. However, from what i have read, the "interpretations of the scholars" are regularly reviewed and are updated. Also, theer is enough literature available to an ordinary person to make his/her own judgements regarding not just Islam, but any other religion.

Moin Khan,

you are the validation of my comment:

"The education in Islam is traditionally one-way stream", all you can say is to repeat exactly what you were told, regardless if it makes sense or not in the 21st century!

How about Muslim women being free to marry non Muslim men?

Have you been indoctrinated on this one, or is it not written in the Koran?

[Shakir 4:25] And whoever among you has not within his power ampleness of means to marry free believing women, then (he may marry) of those whom your right hands possess from among your believing maidens; and Allah knows best your faith: you are (sprung) the one from the other; so marry them with the permission of their masters, and give them their dowries justly, they being chaste, not fornicating, nor receiving paramours; and when they are taken in marriage, then if they are guilty of indecency, they shall suffer half the punishment which is (inflicted) upon free women. This is for him among you who fears falling into evil; and that you abstain is better for you, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

PM,

I agree with you.

It is a bit concerning when (no matter what philosophy, ideology, sect, religion, politics, etc…), coercively indoctrinates their children into a blind and critical-free believes.

I was stunned to find out that, according to Mr.Yasir Qadhi whatever interpretations of the Koran and conclusions are reached by consensus (of some high supreme Islamic court); they will be considered forever as universal and untouchable divine laws.

Isn't this scary or what? Specially when most of the people that grow up in indoctrinated Islamic educations, are often educated to never challenge or doubt these “Consensus committee’s rules” (who ever they are), seen as the divine truth. Really scary and makes us understand better how fanatism can often be encountered amongst Muslims. The education in Islam is traditionally one-way stream, as Mr.Yasir Qadhi said, “to be Muslim” means “to submit” (to his interpretation of the metaphorical language used in the Koran)!

Anything can be done in the name of "the divine truth interpretation", kill the enemy; restrict freedom to women in the name of their own protection, etc, etc...

Personally, I find it castrating and definitely not attractive at all!

I feel sorry for those who appeared to suffer from Stockholm syndrome, passed from generation to generation, preserved for so many centuries that it is now impossible to accept freedom as a right!

my god, what men do their own kind!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Although I would say that Yasir Qadhi has the kind of position and tone that Muslims WILL listen to so I wouldn't discount him. He also was a decent debater so he could counteract some of Nomani's more emotional points. The other 2 -- the Saudi woman and the Syrian MP were very weak. I do believe anybody that has a Western education that includes rhetoric and critical thinking has an advantage in debating; and conversely many of the products of Arab education that have debated over the last season were quite weak. Of course, it helps to be comfortable in the medium of English language but while that Habash may have been a bit weak, Al Arrayed was strong in English and just a mental lightweight.

I refuse to drink the kool-aid! -- PM

This House believes that Muslim women should be free to marry anyone they choose

1 - Asra Nomani, American Muslim Writer & Activist - FOR

2 - Yasir Qadhi, American Muslim cleric - AGAINST

3 - Muhammad Habash, Syrian parliamentarian and cleric - FOR

4 - Thuraya Al Arrayed, Saudi writer and columnist - AGAINST

MOTION PASSED by 62% to 38%

Broadcast: 6-7 June 2009

My opinion about the speakers:

1 - Asra Nomani - an excellent example for Muslim Women, Muslims in general and a great ambassador of what Muslims can be!

2 - Yasir Qadhi - the opposite of all of the above qualities. He believes that interpretations that have reached consensus (among his buddies) are dictated forever and for everybody and they can never ever be put in cause again.

3 - Muhammad Habash - a bit lost in his words and had little debate skills;

4 - Thuraya Al Arrayed - should be a comedian. Patronized everybody below 27, saying that at these ages, people cannot see beyond the physical characteristics of others. If she wasn’t so funny (and ridiculous) I would have classified her as an insult.

Listening to speakers 2 and 4 and some commentators, I can easily understand how easy it is to shape minds of certain Muslims, in the name of certain Islam schools of thoughts. Women were reduced to dumb beings!

Listening to speaker 1 and some other commentators, made me respect and admire certain Muslims!

“Many of the audience”, is probably a bit exaggerated as they didn't give the chance to speak to many. Only a very few had the chance to speak and seldom they were given an adequate answer.

This Qatari lady didn't specify that those factors should be taken into account by the bride herself and not by others!

Watched the debates again over the weekend.

Many of the audience made some very valid points, especially one Qatari lady who said that the decison requires taking many aspects including religion, family, culture, language into account.

The results were as I expectedm but then the "scope" was too wide.

Most surely man is in loss,

Except those who believe and do good, and enjoin on each other truth, and enjoin on each other patience.

committing suicide, should be punished for such misdeed.

Absolute non sense and madness......sssshhhhhhaaaa.

Egyptian man chops off penis after marriage refusal

Tuesday, 2 June 2009

A 25-year-old Egyptian man cut off his own penis to spite his family after he was refused permission to marry a girl from a lower class family, police reported on Sunday.

After unsuccessfully petitioning his father for two years to marry the girl, the man heated up a knife and sliced off his reproductive organ, said a police official.

The young man came from a prominent family in the southern Egyptian province of Qena, one of Egypt's poorest and most conservative areas that is also home to the famed ancient Egyptian ruins of Luxor.

The man was rushed to the hospital but doctors were unable to reattach the severed member, the official added citing the police report filed after the incident.

The official added that the man was still recovering in the hospital.

Traditionally, marriages in these conservative part of southern Egypt are between similar social classes and often within the same extended families — and are rarely for love.

This article is from The Belfast Telegraph

"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365

not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the

many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers

were given. Satan - 10."

The motion cannot be debated.

Apologies if I go all postal on you here:

You said, "But the other women are not as confident and determined as you (PM). The reason for split up in most cases is the uncompromising nature of women. A true muslim woman would allow her husband to have second wife while being a legal and responsible father to her kids. And this is where the west and muslims differ..."

So PM is unique in her character, you think? The rest of us are -- what? -- weak-willed, self-doubting females??

Yes, of course, it is OUR uncompromising nature that screws up this entire equation. If only we would submit to allow our husbands to marry and screw another woman on a regular basis, all would be well in the world.

How wrong of me not to have seen that all along...

And earlier you said, "well, incidents like young kids shooting in schools do not happen in the part of the world where parents do stay in the bad relationship for the sake of kids! what is the guarante that you don't end up in another yet worse relationship? why not try and settle things amicably? Among muslims polygamy is the answer for situations like PM is in."

I'm sorry -- did I miss the causal connection between parents not staying in a loveless marriage and school shootings? I would have thought it had more to do with the crap gun control laws in the US, for instance... Who knew?

And you're right -- there is no guarantee that you won't end up in a worse relationship if you leave your current one. But is that reason enough to stay in an unsatisfying one? Because the next one might not be any better? Apparently you think it is...

And newsflash: divorces CAN actually occur amicably, and as PM said, parents don't need to be married to share a commitment towards raising their child(ren) in a positive, loving way.

All of this is yet another reminder of why I say THANK GOD I was born in a secular state and am not confined by these small-minded notions of how women should behave.

More great quotes I'll leave you with:

"Women who seek to be equal with men lack ambition." ~ Timothy Leary

"The trouble with some women is they get all excited about nothing - and then they marry him." ~ Cher

"Men who treat women as helpless and charming playthings deserve women who treat men as delightful and generous bank accounts." ~ Author Unknown

"Most plain girls are virtuous because of the scarcity of opportunity to be otherwise."

-- Maya Angelou

learnt with our and others experiences. InshaAllah we shall make all efforts to bring harmony and peace in our family and social lives.

Thanks Moin for providing instructions from Quran, the words of Allah, He judges between us & Allah , Who is All-Knowing, All-Wise....May Allah bless and lead us to the Right path....Aameen!

And do not marry Al-Mushrikat (idolatresses, etc.) till they believe (worship Allah Alone). And indeed a slave woman who believes is better than a (free) Mushrikah (idolatress, etc.), even though she pleases you. And give not (your daughters) in marriage to Al-Mushrikun till they believe (in Allah Alone) and verily, a believing slave is better than a (free) Mushrik (idolater, etc.), even though he pleases you. Those (Al-Mushrikun) invite you to the Fire, but Allah invites (you) to Paradise and Forgiveness by His Leave, and makes His Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) clear to mankind that they may remember.

O you who believe! When believing women come to you as emigrants, examine them, Allah knows best as to their Faith, then if you ascertain that they are true believers, send them not back to the disbelievers, they are not lawful (wives) for the disbelievers nor are the disbelievers lawful (husbands) for them. But give the disbelievers that (amount of money) which they have spent [as their Mahr] to them. And there will be no sin on you to marry them if you have paid their Mahr to them. Likewise hold not the disbelieving women as wives, and ask for (the return of) that which you have spent (as Mahr) and let them (the disbelievers, etc.) ask back for that which they have spent. That is the Judgement of Allah. He judges between you. And Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise.

You do make sense and I agree with you.

Kids need to see their parents argue, that is life........they need to see them make up afterwards though...that is life too.

Kids are wiser then us, they do know when somethings real or not.

That includes love xxxxxxxxx

_________________________________________

Man makes plans...............God smiles ;-)

Not only do children not benefit from a married couple staying together for the sake of the child, but it's been proven by sociology studies that children suffer emotionally and developmentally when unhappy parents stay together.

If the parents truly loved their children, they would seperate. Staying together only hurts the children.

Rather than who is the better religious person, we can all try and claim that one.

I thnk the debate showed two things, first of all, showed a way forward to freedom of speech and secondly, Qatari women are stronger than we thought.

They will get there with help xx

_________________________________________________

Man makes plans...............God smiles ;-)

PM - Hmm... I wish every women is as strong and still humble as you are ... . .

Your children are really blessed souls...

___________________________________________

Reality is a Illusion Caused Due to Deficiency of Alcohol

i agree with u...bless u for having a sweet and open mind:)

either take the mother's or the father's name. There usually are legal papers and the kids know who their mother and father are.

And how, if the couple is dissatisfied with their relation and split up, is this any worse than when a married couple splits up and divorces when they have kids?

Do you think having kids is a reason to stay together in an unsuccessful relationship?

As a child of divorce (my parents split when I was three), I can tell you that I am at least happy that I didn't have to watch my parents endure a loveless marriage for my sake. I got to see my parents eventually find a positive love relationship with someone they truly wanted to be with.

"Most plain girls are virtuous because of the scarcity of opportunity to be otherwise."

-- Maya Angelou

i think muslim women should be allowed to marry anyone they want to, regardless of religion. I used to believe that they should only marry a muslim, and of the same sect at that, but i feel differently now. In the end its about love and mutual respect-the details can be worked out.

ummjake.. dont you realized about there children untill they got married they have no legal papers nor a real family name to carry!

and once they, the couple, dis satisfied with their relation, alas who is the victim here? is the children..

do you think its not a problem in the society.?

"Born optimist nothing can keep me too low for so long"

you say:

"this is in opposite to "live in" relationship wherein the couple is not binded by any law, no responsibility at all,be it personal or social, instead they'll create a problematic society."

What kinds of problems do you envision these people in relationships unbound by law creating?

I know plenty of unmarried couples, some who have children together and have been a couple for decades, and they seem just as happy as the legally married couples I know. In fact, they often ascribe the success of their relationship to the fact that they are both free to leave at any point.

I'm not saying that this is better than being married, but I don't think you can assume that people who are in a relationship like this don't have any responsibility towards one another, or any sense of commitment. Many of them do, often more than married people.

"Most plain girls are virtuous because of the scarcity of opportunity to be otherwise."

-- Maya Angelou

going back to the topic...about marriage...for woman if some one ask her hand to marry, and should start this way, he has the right to approved it or not that is her right.

well some may say the girl might just say yes just to please her father or whoever even though she doesnt love the man. well its okey coz its done out of obedience... and besides in islam marriage will brought you love,Allah will put love between the couple, the sooner they get to know each other the better it will become.

some the marriage may not work well,bcoz of so and so, it might happened, however, what ever consequences therein it was done in a legal way or they could end to divorce.

this is in opposite to "live in" relationship wherein the couple is not binded by any law, no responsibility at all,be it personal or social, instead they'll create a problematic society.

"Born optimist nothing can keep me too low for so long"

Qur’an gives the greatest respect to Lord Jesus (25 times the name of Jesus; 5 times the name of Muhammad BPUH).

Islam means peace and its foundation stone is laid on Justice, peace and unity. www.sultan.org

Islam is not a new religion it is only the perfect and pure version of all previous religions. www.sultan.org

I mean; there is only one universal religion from the very first day to the last day of the universe that is Islam. For example Vedic religion in its original form was nothing but Islam at that time. www.sultan.org

I respect all religions and their books in the light of science in original form.

I never tell you to show disrrespect to your family either,prophet mohammad (S.A.W) love his uncle abu talib so much even he is polytheist, but he never stopped even at his death bed to convey the shaahda to him.

what i mean, we can love and respect anyone but it doesnt mean we believe on what he believed.

again i suggest for you to study about the concept of " walaa and Baraa"

"Born optimist nothing can keep me too low for so long"

pm, anything when an attributes of God is also given/rendered to jesus or to any one else in other words, a power sharing, in Islam it is consider polytheism.

"Born optimist nothing can keep me too low for so long"

pm i believe you are new muslim, pls try to study more about tawheed rubbubiyah,ullulohiya and assama wa sipat then evaluate what you had known from your christian friends and family.

"Born optimist nothing can keep me too low for so long"

pm if any christain told you that they dont believe in jesus as partner of God then they are confused christians they have no idea of their religon.

there religion taught them to believe that jesus( A.S) can save them, can answer there prayer, can sustain their needs, can protect them! as a muslim do you believe that? this kind of characteristic is only certain with GOD alone not to any one, nor his prophet or angels.

with this kind of mindset automatically qualify to be polythies or assigning partners with GOD in authority in which it is only unique to him.

"Born optimist nothing can keep me too low for so long"

every rule theres always loopholes even that of sharia how ever the benifit when weigh against the harm is far more better.

so when quran tells us muslima is not allowed to marry to non belivers,here in this cicumstances, at first we can say directly no freedom for muslima if she happened fell to a non belivers, but look again, islam consider the future, the out come of maariage, the protection of the deen,the family and the society in general.

"Born optimist nothing can keep me too low for so long"

both are including Uzair (PBUH) and Jesus (PBUH)respectively in the partnership of the Almighty as His son. This statement is according to Quran, Chapter- 2, verse 116, Chapter- 9, verse 30.

If you are in some doubt about this book of Quran then make a few verses similar those of the book (see in Quran, Chapter-2, Verses-22, 23, 24). www.sultan.org

I agree... Men and women should have the right to choose whom to marry. It's not easy to live a lifetime with the person you did not love nor liked at all. There are just so many compromising situations to be encountered in the future as a couple and to sacrifice all of these for the person you don't love is a nightmare!

Although on a second thought, this kind of arrangement has worked for most of the Muslim people and even in India for so many years now but the being exposed to muliticultural environment has changed the children of this generation...And so it goes!

The difference between ahle kitab and mushrikun: Jews and Christians are also mushrikun because both are including Uzair (PBUH) and Jesus (PBUH)respectively in the partnership of the Almighty.

Speed, were you replying to my post about my Omani friends?

The point I'm trying to make is that many people argue that Muslim girls already do, semantically, have the freedom to marry who they chose.

By extension, some claim if they marry outside of the religion, they aren't Muslim.

And if they marry someone their family doesn't like, they risk social rejection (or possibly some may claim that marriage without their father's express permission is also not permitted within the confines of the religion, so again, they aren't Muslim if they do this).

But in any case, the girls do have the choice to act according to their own motivations. It's just that the consequences my be unpalatable.

I'm not trying to push an agenda, I'm just trying to provide observations from my years living in the Gulf.

This thread has been - to some extent - mature. Yet we cannot reach at an agreement. Everyone has a point of view and has own reasoning. Every opinion is respected as long as it is within the boundaries of respect.

As I have mentioned earlier, we as individuals are not in a position to judge others specially when it comes to believers and unbelievers.

May I suggest to close this thread and stop arguing. I think 3 pages of discussions are sufficient since no one is able to add any more valid points. Each debate should come to and end.

Regards to all

===================================== http://www.qatarliving.com/node/58409

Recent scholars have clearly asking for conversion even for Christians and Jews even though they are Ahle kitaab.

They had valid reasons to justify the claims that their books got corrupted drastically with time and no where it is close to the status where it was during Prophet Mohammed (peace be upon him) time.

However, there are many scholars who still agreeing to what PM and UKENG said above....as to follow what Quran have instructed commandments to be followed till the day of judgment without question/amendment.

I agree with PM on this one. I always thought (my personal view) from the little knowledge of Islam that I have that the Christian and Jews were the so called people of the book hence making them believers.

-----------------

HE WHO DARES WINS

KH.....everything is not covered thats the reason we refer to islamic scholar for further guidance or fatwa.....

Recent scholars have clearly asking for conversion even for Christians and Jews even though they are Ahle kitaab.

believers are clearly defined by those whose believe in one and only one God. This is the basis of Islam through Shahada.

In the Quran, somewhere mentioning about the Jews claiming that Azir is the son the God, the Christians claiming that Jesus is the son of God. Which technically means they are unbelievers.

Things are not always straight forward. For example we know that homosexuality is Haram. It is clearly mentioned in the Quran about the people of Lout. Nothing is mentioned about lesbians. Does that mean that lesbianism is okay? btw. I keep arguing about this point to heat some debates :)

Eventually we are not clerics but somehow try to reason and weigh things.

Each person has a valid point of view and this can be an endless argument

===================================== http://www.qatarliving.com/node/58409

the title of the thread is NOT FOR QATARIS MARRIAGE.

Don't forget that NO ONE IS PERFECT. This way someone can write books on your people also.

As we said, Rules of Allah (God) in the Quran cannot be ruled out or Changed by anyone. If someone is doing against the rules that is purely as individual act and they are answerable for their deeds.

You may refer to Mr. Moin Khan post above for more clarifications in the Holy Quran.

As Pikey said:

"Should Women be allowed to choose their prospective Husbands, My vote is Yes they should be allowed it is both their Human and Religious right."

Simple :-)

It's mostly a semantic debate about the meaning of the words 'force' and 'choice'.

Girls aren't 'forced' to marry the guy that turns up on their doorstep one day. But anyone who honestly thinks that they can say 'no, I'd prefer to marry Ahmed' without then facing years of resentment, disapproval, and cold stares from family members is kidding themselves.

I know of one Omani girl who didn't want to marry the guys her father suggested, and instead married an Egyptian. He loves her, she loves him.

But here's the but...

The father will not speak to the husband (even though they all live in the same house).

In fact their children will never be given Omani nationality, since their father is not Omani.

If young girls find themselves being told who to marry, they know they can say no. But they also know that the alternatives will be far worse than a loveless marriage.

It is matter of Culture and Religion in this part of the world.

Should Women be allowed to choose their prospective Husbands, My vote is Yes they should be allowed it is both their Human and Religious right.

of their own choice or love....?

Most of the younger married Qatari guys I know just married whoever they were told to. They didn't really know the girl, and they didn't protest because they don't really care.

They still sleep around, have affairs, and I have a feeling some even have children to other women.

But they are all married, and none of them were 'forced'.

They had the option to say no, but when dad says "marry this chick", they say "when".

Why would anyone bother trying to convince their parents that they should marry the girl they love, when they can shut their parents up by marrying some random girl, and then continue a secret relationship with someone who they are already in a meaningful relationship with.

to a certain extent. Further approve that Islam is Islam, A great religion, whatever we follow is mixed of religion influenced by so many social, traditional and cultural factors.

PM's quote

"We follow our religion to the best of our ability. We read, think and study it -- or in the case of many we pick a scholar we want to put our faith in and follow what they say. Does that make any of us non-Muslims?".....

VB: Answer is No, as far as we do respect Sharia and Sunnah and follow....at our level best and have realisation in our hearts that we are weak in following 100% due to whatever reasons (cultural, traditional, or social)...is ok.

Denying the Islamic LAWS and Sunnah, will make a person Non-muslim (obviously that makes a person Believer or non believer).

In India, there is Muslim Personal Laws covering only social and family matters; while all other areas like criminal and military laws are not covered. In such cases, only Indian Penal codes would apply.

Nuh: The concept of Ahle kitab is acceptable as per islamic laws as Jews and Chritians are believing in ONE God and they are Not Atheist BUT today's muslim scholars urge to get convert them for better and clarity.

You may refer chapter 2, verse 221 and chapter 60, verse 10 of the holy book of Quran

http://yadiin.blogspot.com/

Interesting - I do not know any Arab woman who was forced to marry someone she did not like . Are there forced marriages around here ? I thought that was only the past .

Dont Talk,,,,,,,,, Read It

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I think you have me confused with someone who gives a sh1t.

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.

Dear questioner, thank you very much for having confidence in us, and we hope our efforts, which are purely for Allah's Sake, meet your expectations.

First, Islam calls upon all people to join hands and to co-operate with each other regardless of their creedal affiliations as long as all work for the betterment of humanity and there is no harm inflicted as a result of such co-operation. Of all the existing religions, Jews and Christians possess a very special status in Islam. Islam allowed the Muslim to marry a woman from among the People of the Book, but a Muslim woman, on the other hand, is NOT permitted to have a non-Muslim man as her husband. The reason is that usually the sons and daughters are ascribed to the father, and Islam’s ruling is that the son or the daughter should follow the true religion; namely Islam. The previous ruling is so inclusive in Islam.

Responding to the question, Sheikh Zoubir Bouchikhi, Imam of the Islamic Society of Greater Houston’s Southeast Mosque, states the following:

“First of all, I would like to stress that Islam is the true religion of Allah (god). Muslims, are enjoined by the teachings of the Qur’an and the Sunnah, to believe in Jesus and Moses as Messengers of Allah, while the Jews and the Christians do not actually believe in Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) as the last and the seal of all Prophets and Messengers of Allah. This may indicate that their beliefs are not complete, and from here came the command of Allah for NOT allowing a Muslim woman to marry a non-Muslim man as man is responsible for his wife and children, and responsibility cannot be given to someone who incomplete in his belief.

I know that this is a little bit hard, but remember that the truth is always bitter for those who are not ready to accept it.

Having said this, I should add here that we are not separated as Muslims, Jews, and Christians by the Books of the same Creator but by the changes that some of the Rabbis and the Priests have made to the true teachings of Moses and Jesus (peace and blessings be upon them all)

them).

Finally, I hope that you study Islam from its main source; the Qur'an and the Sunnah, and not by looking at the behavior of some Muslims. I wish you all the best.”

Moreover, the prominent Saudi scholar Sheikh `Abdul-Rahman Al-Barrak, adds:

“It is not permissible for a Muslim woman to marry a kafir (non-Muslim), whether he is Jewish, Christian or an atheist because the man has authority over his wife, and it is not permissible for a kafir to have authority over a Muslim woman. There are decisive texts from the Qur’an which refer to the prohibition of such marriage. For example, Allah Almighty says, “And give not (your daughters) in marriage to Al Mushrikun (atheists) till they believe (in Allah Alone)” (Al-Baqarah: 221)

And “And never will Allah grant to the disbelievers a way (to triumph) over the believers” (An-Nisaa’: 141)

Source: www.islam-qa.com

Finally, I recommend you to read:

Marrying a Non-Muslim Male

Does the Term “Ahlul-Kitab” Still Apply Today?

Muhammad & Jesus: Common Ground

If you have any further questions, please don't hesitate to write back!

May Allah guide you to the straight path, and guide you to that which pleases Him, Amen.

For DETAILS

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503543656

Or Im sure someone will cut 'n paste it here soon.

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I think you have me confused with someone who gives a sh1t.

women,so how does the 'western' way enter into it ?

No-one on here said the 'western' way was right or wrong.

The endgame is, that its written in the Quran that a Muslim woman cannot marry a non Muslim man. That will never change cos the Quran will never be re-written will it, so these debates were a waste of time.

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I think you have me confused with someone who gives a sh1t.

An Islamic marriage should be documented in an Islamic court. How can such amarrage between a Muslim woman and a believer be accepted in such a court?

Did they give an example about similar marriages during the early ages of Islam?

btw after reading your last reply, went to check some info about Dr. Habash. Here are the findings and it is up to you to judge:

1979 Advanced Diploma Quranic studies

1986 BA Islamic Shariaa

1987 BA Arabic Literature

1987 BA Islamic Da'awa

1987 Head of Center for Islamic Studies

1992 Lecturer at Damascus University - Islamic Sharia

1997 Masters, Islamic Studies - University of Karachi

unknown date - PhD Quran Sciences - University of Khartoum.

Such a talented person.

Last but not least. During a talk show in 2007 he mentioned "if America does not want to talk to Syria then (he mentioned an Arabic word that ranges from 'to hell' and 'let them lick my a**'"

Sorry but I do not listen to such people and do not buy what they sell

===================================== http://www.qatarliving.com/node/58409

As much as I applaud your wonderful attempts to prove what is happening, sometimes, somewhere in the Muslim world.

You could perhaps check out the number of women who have acid thrown in their face, or thrown out of families for 'daring' to love a person from another religion or even village.

I love your passion for the religion you have converted too.

As somebody that has lived the Catholic upbringing, do not be fooled; just as bad this end.

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God does not believe in Athiests.

I am confused about the Syrian MP. I know he is an active Baathist politician.Never knew he is into Islamic legislations. I think Mr. Habash is mixing between good Muslims and believers. Either he did not express himself properly or it was a translation mistake.

I hope we are not complicating the issue. As per the title, Muslim marriage should be done through an Islamic court, otherwise it is civil marriage.

I am and any other person is not in a position to judge people when it comes to religion.

===================================== http://www.qatarliving.com/node/58409

yes the West is criticised for the number of MEN and WOMEN that have children when not married.................but so do people from the West say it is wrong.

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God does not believe in Athiests.

hey people, marriage is definitely cultural and religious, if you are living in a society which allows arranged marriage so be it, we do not have any right to question what the Arab people are doing, do we question the westerners when they only live with their partners and having a baby out of wedlock? Its a simple being respectful to one's culture, westerners should not force their standard of right and wrong to other nations. The problem is the Western people think that their moral standard is right and should be followed.

"In the midst of a changing world, we should not forget what we were before."

I agree with you; my first point was, it should be 'should any woman be allowed to marry the person she chooses'.

Interesting really, just thought of this.......what about the men? What if they are equally upset with the whole arranged/forced thing.

That goes for all religions.

Mr. P, it still does happen in other religions too.

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God does not believe in Athiests.

===================================== http://www.qatarliving.com/node/58409

And read the title of the topic....Its about MUSLIM Women and marriage, not hindus, catholics or any other religion.

That is a whole different topic.

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I think you have me confused with someone who gives a sh1t.

I agree it is supposed to be against Islamic law but nobody can deny that they exist. They do.

I was trying to say in muddled way, ALL religions prefer you marry somebody from the same religion.

Think 'Fiddler on the Roof'....another example........it still happens by the way (all over).

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God does not believe in Athiests.

pcg

kelly is just giving the stand of islam ,

where does forced marraige not exists, muslims, hindus , christians, all over the world , many people marry by force as per circumstances , family pressures etc etc

but islam doesnt allow forced marraige.. and a marraige which the bride or the groom were forced into is invalid

kelly is just stating the islamic rule as to women marraige,

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i want to learn until i die, if u have some knowledge then share it with me.

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Yes forced marriage exist but it is against Islam. Even in Pakistan or other parts of the "Islamic World", what is implemented in some places is not the Islamic law. It is tribal law and they one has nothing to do with the other

===================================== http://www.qatarliving.com/node/58409

I agree with your sentiments, however your "interpretations" are very personal.

All religions lay down rules and guidelines. It is up to the individual whether to conform to them fully or not.

The Pope has spoken often against homosexuality, yet we as individuals can opt to go against his guidance. Sati is the traditional Hindu practice of a widow immolating herself on her husband's funeral pyre. Yet most widows now opt not to adopt this practice.

Similarly, Muslim women are not allowed to marry outside their religion. It is a rule, yet we can opt to not adapt to it.

I agree with your sentiments, however your "interpretations" are very personal.

All religions lay down rules and guidelines. It is up to the individual whether to conform to them fully or not.

The Pope has spoken often against homosexuality, yet we as individuals can opt to go against his guidance. Sati is the traditional Hindu practice of a widow immolating herself on her husband's funeral pyre. Yet most widows now opt not to adopt this practice.

Similarly, Muslim women are not allowed to marry outside their religion. It is a rule, yet we can opt to not adapt to it.

Sorry, but you are very wrong,forced marriages do exist. It is a fact. Go and google the BBC from I think a week ago where a Pakistani Muslim lady living in the UK, was just sent to prison for forcing her daughters, who if I remember rightly were also very young, to marry cousins back in Pakistan.

It is a matter of fact it does happen. This is wrong.

I am sitting on the fence and saying that most religions advice us, it is best to marry somebody from the same religion.

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God does not believe in Athiests.

The issue is simple and does not need such a debate.

Women - in Islam - have the right to choose their husbands provided they are good Muslims.

Woman has to approve and agree to marry a man. Under any circumstances she cannot be forced to marry a man she does not like/want.

When we follow a religion, we should follow it completely. Any religion is a complete integral system. We cannot select from the "menu" what we like.

Whether a marriage is arranged or by choice, it is subject to success or failure. In case of failure, the couple or either of them can ask for divorce which should be granted easily. Usually the judge has to make sure that the couple cannot continue together and it is not a matter of "I am bored" or "I found a better man/woman and want to change"

===================================== http://www.qatarliving.com/node/58409

read the matrimony section in the Gulf Times??

I do and it is mainly other religions asking to meet similar like minded people,within same area, same educational background included but more often than not not the religion is stated as THE most important issue. So it is not only Muslims that want to marry the same religion.

If you want to use the phrase, 'arranged' or 'forced'; it still happens in other corners of the world.

True Catholics always marry Catholics, or try to. One of the other has to 'convert' usually the non-Catholic IMHO.

I am glad the debate went well and I was shocked at the result and in a way happy in that result.

I still say though, it is a long way off.

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God does not believe in Athiests.

britexpat - lol.... Brit is it only me who is seeing for the first time that two Moderate Muslims ( Azam and PM ) are fighting more ferociously than we would expect a extremist would...... or even you see tht.... ?

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Reality is a Illusion Caused Due to Deficiency of Alcohol

check womens right in islam

http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/70042/women%20in%20islam

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i want to learn until i die, if u have some knowledge then share it with me.

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“Verily, Allaah enjoins Al‑‘Adl (i.e. justice)”

[al-Nahl 16:90]

Those who say that Islam is the religion of equality are lying against Islam. Rather Islam is the religion of justice which means treating equally those who are equal and differentiating between those who are different.

Not one single letter in the Qur’aan enjoins equality, rather it enjoins justice.

Islam does not regard men and women as equal in matters where regarding them as equal would result in injustice to one of them, because equality that is inappropriate is a severe form of injustice.

for example,

The Qur’aan commands women to wear clothes that are different from those worn by men, because of the differences in the ways each sex is tempted by the other. The temptation posed by men is less than the temptation posed by women, so the clothes that women should wear are different than the clothes that men wear. It makes no sense to tell women to expose the parts of the body that men are allowed to expose, because of the differences in the temptation posed by a woman’s body and a man’s body

The male is different from the female in many ways, in his strength, in his body, in his toughness and roughness, whereas women are soft and gentle.

And men are different in intellectual terms, for men are known for their strength of understanding and their memory as compared to women. Women are weaker than men in memory and forget more than men do. This is well known, for most of the reputable scholars in the world are men. There are some women who are more intelligent and have better memories than some men, but this does not cancel out the general rule. Most cases are as we have described above.

With regard to emotions, men speak of them when they get angry or when they are happy, but women are affected by the slightest emotional effects, so their tears flow at the slightest emotional provocation.

In conclusion we may say that the rulings for men are not like the rulings for women.

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i want to learn until i die, if u have some knowledge then share it with me.

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Azam - One dirty little secret....

Anywhere in this world... no matter which religion...

Every religion talks about high respect for women adn every religion has abused and oppressed in innovative ways... one better than the other....

No religion is an exception.....

Hindus the least...

But the debates and Arguments here are so much Islam and Christianity based.. tht is I right something Hindu here...

I would be looked upon as Hijacking the forum/..... :)

May be I am wrong but this is my honest n Blunt feeling....

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Reality is a Illusion Caused Due to Deficiency of Alcohol

Way to go. WE MEN will always be the bosses..

This is a Debate I m really enjoying reading..... :)

Things are changing.....

No matter how much we try to reduce the speed of the change... or improvisation as many call it.. is bound to happen.....

we shall keep living in this viscous cycle....

First.. of course like all other animals even we must have lived like one..

Then came importance of making rules.... They had lived in a un-lawful ways... cherished it... and followed it..

We see the problems of sticking to rules and try break them else at least bend them.....

The only thing tht is constant is rebellious nature of Human.....

After we are tired breaking the rules... following them shall be a cool thing.....

KalYug it is..... :) time of Devils... this too shall pass.... :)

Nothing in life is worth dieing for......

I really don know - Main motive of religion is to help us reach enlightenment or to sustain itself ???

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Reality is a Illusion Caused Due to Deficiency of Alcohol

religion and distorting its fundamental basic rules and laws...

I quote Moin " The Creator of the human beings knows the best so we have to follow His commands, that is Quran (the solution of all problems)".......

Being moderate muslims doesn't mean one can make the amendments to make it 'religion of convenience' rather following the religion of Submission (Islam).

In Qatar as Fubar said and I also witnessed the issue of culture rather from Religion...leaving wives at home spending weekends with friends in bahrain / dubai is a general phenomenon.....

This need awareness and proper education and correcting the family values to spend time together....to create harmony and peace at home and in the society at whole.

of their own choice preferably from within the community.

Family and cultural influence a lot in selection of a man.

Nobody would like to get a social boycott (sometime directly or indirectly)...incase of one get married outside his/her caste, religion or community, in short to get into one relationship....cause all other relations get affected.....this need some serious considerations before such acts.

Agree, we all live in a conservative society...but with globalisation this may change, May be, I am not very sure my kids will marry an Indian muslim..but due to the present education, internet culture, social environment and obligations.

While they are very well aware of being a muslim they need a boy or a girl either to be a muslim or need to get converted before marrying (if non muslim other than Ahle-Kitaab).

Marriage is NOT obligatory by Quran...It is Sunnah and One of the pleasant and preferred Sunnah to Prophet Mohammed (Peace Be Upon Him)...it is been called as 'half faith' in Islam......an instruction to prevent us from sins and illegal relationships.....and to get accepted in civilised society.

It is purely my understanding about marriages in Islam

Just a thought....

Does Islam allows Internet Chatting (on the social website such as QL) with an opposite sex?

- In my views no harm, so far within acceptable limits exchanging views or increasing understanding about a subject...but just flirting is not allowed.

That Islam is heavily swayed towards the males.

The Males WILL ALWAYS decide who the females in their family marry, so this debate does seem really pointless.

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I think you have me confused with someone who gives a sh1t.

And how sad that is for women here.

Another issue that I can see becoming more and more of a problem here with the current way marriages happen is how more and more Qatari women are getting better educated, obtaining advanced graduate degrees...and then they're expected to marry these guys who have only a high school diploma.

Talk about a recipe for disaster...

"Most plain girls are virtuous because of the scarcity of opportunity to be otherwise."

-- Maya Angelou

Even being 'khaleeji' isn't enough for a lot of Qatari guys.

I've had friends tell me that they wouldn't allow their sisters to marry Saudis (too bedouin) Emiratis (too arrogant) Omanis (too poor) Kuwaitis (too conservative) Bahrainis (too open).

Then they start whittling away the various families in Qatar, knocking each off for various flaws - too bedouin, not real Qatari, too Iranian, too dark....

In the end they just decide the only guys their sister should marry is her cousin.

Muslim men may marry non-Mulsim women from the book (Jews and Christians), but not vice-versa.

You say that it is because they share the same prophets, but that is only true up until a point. Christians believe Jesus was a prophet, as do Muslims, but they don't accept Mohammed as a prophet -- so there would still exist some disagreement on the prophet issue -- not to mention the major differences and practices between the two religions in other areas.

And why, if we're allowing that marriage is possible even when the partners don't share the same religion, should it matter which religion which parent is? I never quite understood why people think that religion HAS TO go through the father. Especially when you consider that it is usually the mother who is teaching the child at home in the early, formative years...seems to me as if she would have more influence on a child's religious thinking than the father ever would.

And what of the point PM raised earlier, about Jews believing religion goes through the mother, yet Muslims believing it goes through the father. What to do in this mixed-marriage situation?

A question for those of you who actually went to the debate: did it focus mostly on religious issues, or were cultural ones addressed too (like Qatari girls being free to marry Indian or Brazilian men)? Especially here in the Gulf, it often seems that culture trumps religion, and this has been my experience with the issue of marriage. One (Qatari) man I dated for a very long time told me that even if I were to convert to Islam it would not be enough to allow me to be accepted by his family, because bottom-line was that I was not 'khaleeji'.

Show me the Qatari man who would allow his sister to marry an honest and God-fearing GOOD Muslim man from Somalia or India or Netherlands.

There isn't one.

"Most plain girls are virtuous because of the scarcity of opportunity to be otherwise."

-- Maya Angelou

I tend to agree, PM.

Young girls AND young guys think the notion that females are incapable of selecting an appropriate husband is patronising and moronic.

Furthermore, it's in the guy's own interests to encourage acceptance of females being able to select the partner of their chosing - guys don't want to be married off to a woman who they don't love any more than a woman wants be married to a man she doesn't love.

It's mutually advantageous.

As for the point about apostasy, you can't have it both ways.

If you want to enforce strict interpretation of the religion (ie that women shouldn't be allowed to chose because their is no Koranic permission allowing it) you need to also enfore the strict interpretation that if women do chose, they are heretics and should be punished according to religious law.

There is no middle ground.

Quran is a Book of God (Allah). Whatever (Muslim) do against the teachings of Quran will have to pay the price on the day of Judgment. (Muslim believes)

From your comment I can say you are not a Muslim so you will not know the real values of Quran. Just by saying:

"...and for those above me here commenting,,,and with the greatest respect I say this, those quoting the Quran last night lost the battle decisively. If I were you I would put away the good Book and read "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus", or whatever the newest one is,,,these young women last night were way, way beyond that."

Don't forget these few young people cannot change the words of Quran :-)

The reason for forbidding a Muslim woman from marrying a non-Muslim is that a Christian or a Jewish man believes only in his prophet, and doesn’t believe in prophet Mohamed (PBHU) or any of the other prophets (blessing be upon them) and similarly for those who don't believe in one of God (Allah).

For example... when this Muslim woman tries to teach her kids to love and respect all prophets and believe in all of them, her non-Muslim husband will not agree, because he believes only in his prophet. He will interfere in the way she raises her kids, and prevents her from raising them in an Islamic way. And here comes the real problem, because she will have only two options, whether she leaves the whole thing as it is, and does nothing about it which will be an insult to her religion or she argues about the matter... and this will sure lead to more marital problems !!!

On the other hand.. there will be no such problems between a Muslim husband, and a non Muslim wife (follower of four Holy Books).. because if this wife tried to teach her kids to love and believe in her prophet and her Muslim husband will not refuse that because he already believes in her prophet and all prophets. This is why Islam allows the marriage between Muslim man and non-Muslim woman, and forbids the marriage between Muslim woman, and non-Muslim man. Because Islam respects the marital relationship and wants to guarantee its stability, not because it respects men, and disrespects women …

Once again as we said above we don't support force marriage even in Islam. But it is not allowed for a Muslim woman to marry Non Muslim man. She has full right to select her life partner in Islam.

Yes, expense is very much a big factor in discouraging marriage.

But a lot of my Qatari friends enjoy the freedom they have as single men, and would feel bad being married to a woman while still chasing other girls around town.

They know, realistically, that they aren't going to stop playing the scene just because they are married, and the best way of not cheating on a wife is to not be married.

They like their life - they can party, travel, and have fun without feeling like they are lying to deceiving a wife.

Being married won't make them stop, it will just give them feel bad, and make their wife feel humiliated.

Forcing these sorts of guys into marriage is the height of stupidity on the part of parents, and thankfully most parents know this and would rather their sons stay single, than to know that their son is a philandering, promiscious husband.

The Creator of the human beings knows the best so we have to follow His commands, that is Quran (the solution of all problems)

The reluctance to get married is more to do with expense than wishing to stay single.

The higher divorce rate is likely to do with women becoming more educated, independent and self thinking. Many males cannot relate to this.

You make an interesting point, but I don't think it's the "boys driving the Land Cruisers" who "will have some tough adjusting to do in the future".

I haven't spoken to many young Qatari females about their thoughts of marriage, but I have spoken to a lot of young Qatari guys, and they aren't keen on the idea at all.

From my experience, most see the whole idea of marriage as too expensive, too inconvenient, and not in the least appealing. And they have told their parents to stop trying to set them up with prospective brides. They can see no need to get married, and are enjoying their time living the single life.

It is the older generation that is going to have to come to grips with the reluctance of the young to get married. With the divorce rate so high amongst the young, parents seem to be more willing to take their childrens' wishes into consideration, and if their son says he doesn't want to get married, they figure it's best to listen, since coercing unwilling children into marriages more and more often ends badly.

This is just a generational issue, with people over 40 unable to see things from the point of view of people under 30, which is more or less the center of the debate for many - "young girls just don't know what they want in life and should rely on older people to make decisions for them".

It's a sentiment that will die, along with the well intentioned marriages.

something rather extrordinary happened there last night. The young and educated women were adament in their cause that they will not to be subjected any longer, for whatever reason. I think that these results are going to be a central discussion in many Qatari households for the next while,,,these young women have gained a foothold and will not retreat on this...they have gained a tactical advantage and can now point to this educated forum, one that is to be broadcast worldwide on BBC no less, and say "look, I told you before, and now I have proof,,,things have changed, I will not be a subordinate any longer"....in North America we had watershed moments, when you can say that that was the day society changed, and this was one.

You should have been there,,,it was very nice to see very competent and confident young people say, with the greatest respect, that they weren't going to take it any longer...

I think that the boys driving the Land Cruisers will have some tough adjusting to do in the future :)

...and for those above me here commenting,,,and with the greatest respect I say this, those quoting the Quran last night lost the battle decisively. If I were you I would put away the good Book and read "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus", or whatever the newest one is,,,these young women last night were way, way beyond that.

great list VB, agree with it 100%,

even if 2 people not at all knowing each other enters into a marital relationships, and follows the above list, sure love emerges on its own, and no one knows it better than me,

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i want to learn until i die, if u have some knowledge then share it with me.

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I agree with you 100%. For this you refer chapter 2 verse no. 256 of the holy book of Quran.

I like the idea of the list, but I think it's naive to expect that your wife will 'love' you if you do all those things.

It might help her tolerate you, or respect you, or stay with you, but love isn't just something that emerges because you treat someone nicely. Love is something special that happens between people on a more emotional level.

Think about it - in the workplace you should treat everyone in most of the same ways that you describe in your list, with the exception of foreplay etc :P

But treating your co-workers nicely, with patience, with tolerance, with respect etc, will not make them *love* you.

the link...

&feature=PlayList&p=C8063ED5A8E64C1D&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=14

52. Foreplay before intimate relations

Please can you eloborate on this please? :)

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HE WHO DARES WINS

I'm not sure I understand this one:

34. Satan is the enemy, not your wife

Some of that list is quite patronising, isn't it?

maintain and sustain the long lasting relationship with its true essence...

Family stands on Love, mutual trust and respect......

I will cut and paste, a very important message here......

60 ways to keep your wife loved (Excellent Practise it...)

1. Make her feel secure

2. Say 'Assalam alaykum' when you enter home

3. Treat her gently; she is a fragile vessel

4. Advise her in privacy, and choose the best times

5. Be generous

6. Offer her your seat

7. Avoid anger - try to keep wudhu

8. Look god, smell great

9. Don't be rigid

10. Be a good listener

11. Don't argue, flatter her

12. Call her with the best of names

13. Give her pleasant surprises

14. Preserve your tongue

15. Over-look short-comings

16. Show her your appreciation

17. Encourage her to keep in touch with relatives

18. Talk about topics which interest her

19. Give her praise infront of her relatives

20. Give gifts

21. Get rid of routine, every now and then

22. Think the best of your spouse

23. Overlook small mistakes

24. Be patient

25. Expect and respect her jealousy

26. Be humble

27. Don' put friends first

28. Help in the house

29. You can't force love on anyone. Help her to love your parents

30. Show her she is your ideal spouse

31. Remember spouse in duaa, in her absence

32. Leave her past to Allah

33. Don't show wife you are doing her a favor, by providing for her

34. Satan is the enemy, not your wife

35. Feed your wife

36. Treat wife as a precious pearl - Protect her from the envy of others

37. Show her your smile

38. A small spark will lead to fire. Don't ignore small problems, as they will become big problems

39. Avoid being moody, and harsh-hearted

40. Respect her way of thinking, it is strength for you

41. Help her to discover herself and learn new skills- Her success is your success

42. Respect boundaries, when having intimate relations

43. Your children are your hearts walking on earth, help her to look after your hearts

44. Gifts on the tongue- Compliment her

45. Eat with the family

46. Let her know when you are travelling and when you are coming back

47. Don't allow little debates to become arguments

48. Keep secrets of the family

49. Encourage each other to perform acts of worship

50. Give spouse their rights

51. Live with them in kindness and fairness - in good times and bad

52. Foreplay before intimate relations

53. If you have problem, don't share it with others - If you have a wound, you don't leave open for germs to attack

54. Care for her health

55. Don't think you are always right

56. Share your happiness and sadness with spouse

57. Have mercy on her weaknesses

58. Be a shoulder to cry on, and a pillar to lean on

59. Accept her, as she is

60. Have good intention at all times

..

Trust the above helps to Build strong relationship...

I am for the motion with some guidlines.

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HE WHO DARES WINS

Fubar - hmm...

Ya such a data shall be eye opener....

what matters more is Votes n ideologies of Youth.... 25 - 40.....

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Reality is a Illusion Caused Due to Deficiency of Alcohol

It would have been interesting to see the demographic breakdown of who voted for and against the motion.

Did it seem that those voting against the motion tended to be older and male, while those voting against the motion were younger and female?

Thanks for the review of the actual debate.

It would have been nice to know in advance that the motion meant she would be free to marry ANYONE she liked. It would have steered our debate in a different direction I think.

mmyke - Thanks for sharing.

But I strongly feel.. today Society is going away from Religion as it wants change.... as always...

After few years... when they forget the problems caused by sticking to God and live bigger problems caused by not sticking to God..... Shall result in Society going back to Religious way of living...

Its a cycle.... nothing shall stop this....

Its not the education that is taking people away from God.. it is the way it is given.....

Forget about the religion.... but which Education system is concerned and focusing on producing students with high moral value and socially aware... which system makes you live and be a Good human.... ???

They all make us slaves... Slaves of Society....

Society needs workers to run itself... and we really look forward to be one.....

All of us are not living happily as it should be..... its the hope tht in future we shall live a good life...

and screw up the very life... the present.....

THe time when you are happy never comes.... End of one problem or stage signifies beginning on another...

Never experienced happiness more than a fraction of second for achieving the Goal...

The goal which this society compels to choose..... :(

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Reality is a Illusion Caused Due to Deficiency of Alcohol

The motion was that a muslim woman could be free to marry "anyone" she wished. This was taken by all to be broad enough and did include non-muslim men. Indeed, it was broad enough to emcompass lesbian marriage, but no-one went there because the focus was on a male-female marriage, muslim and non-muslim. The participants were 2 clerics, one for and one against, and two women, one a liberal author (for the motion) and the other was a psychologist or marriage counselor of some sort, who was against the motion. The clerics kept relying on the God and Mohammad thing, the pyschologist relyed on a "peace within the home and family" thing (she would always end up taking a micro global perspective, and the lady liberal author would take the "to be free in your choice, its an individual's freedom to choose that counts, not the God thing or the micro-global-peace- within- the-family-society-position that matters" The motion passed 62% in favour.

What I brought away from the debate is that the positions that the clerics brought forward and defended are going to cause, and are causing a train wreck. In western societies, where religion was held with high esteem several decades ago, society began to evolve in a direction different from that of religion. Religion tried to pull society back, but could not. Society got off the train 25 years ago and the two have parted. This is happening here now, and its inevitable. The clerics were left rather dumbfounded on the stage while the crowd ignored them and had a lively discussion afterwards.The God thing cannot exist in societies with high levels of education. Its a product of peasantry and poor cultures where dreams of a life that is wonderful after death, gives the poor something to think of while enduring their miserable condition while alive on earth.

In 15 years Islam is going to have to handle same-sex marriage,,,that will be interesting to watch.

I want tickets to that debate!!

The loudest and most controversial always makes the news.

People must make up their own minds by those they know and organisations such as......

http://www.quilliamfoundation.org/

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But I just wouldn't want to get into debates with the loudmouths/the shouters. I don't want to go down to that level. No, I believe there are other ways.

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I know, sometimes I think the religion has been hijacked by some...some loud voices.

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I totally disagree that a woman who marries a non-Muslim is not a Muslima anymore.

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For or Against ???

I am for the motion....

Marrying within the religion is important as rightly said by Mr. Paul ... so that the traditions are continued...

But tht doesn mean all "have to"... free will.. there wish...

The religious and social restrictions are not as big as we see them... its all in the MIND....

Society makes it larger than life .... Jus decide and they break ....or change... sounds better... :)

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Reality is a Illusion Caused Due to Deficiency of Alcohol

I'm sure it is written in the Quran that a Muslim lady MAY ONLY MARRY a MUSLIM man, so the kids will grow up to follow the Fathers religion, IE Islam.

So therefore, a Muslim woman will NEVER be allowed to marry a non Muslim man, despite whatever people say now.

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I think you have me confused with someone who gives a sh1t.

I think the religious and cultural differences AT THIS MOMENT are too problematic.

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God does not believe in Athiests.

discussion and indeed very informative.

So who is supporting and who is opposing the motion ?

I think they do, in their own way.

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God does not believe in Athiests.

The simple fact is that in most societies religion and culture define the boundries..

Should any woman be allowed to marry the man of choice and that includes Catholic women who are not allowed (really) to marry from another religion. It would have been a fair motion.

I find this difficult as this is not only about religion but about culture and who are we do debate that.

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God does not believe in Athiests.

I don't think Piety really comes into it.. It's more to do with KNOWING that you are both starting from scratch and learning to gradually understand each other and compromise.

To know someone very well, it will take sometimes to learn good and bad about partner.

The more you chew, the more you know bitterness.

Marriage is Possessive. So getting agreesive. And more control and restriction.

No love and understanding in the beginning, people in general will not be patient and can not live with above Possessive, Agreesive, Control and Restriction.

Life is short. Let man and woman have their own choice and enjoy their marriage life in this valueable HUMAN life period.

be subjected to the will of a majority, especially regarding a deeply personal issue. Its insane, it stifles progress, and besides it never lasts anyhow.

western and eastern divorces rates as an indicator of whether love marriages or arranged marriages are more satisfying and enduring.

There are a whole host of other variables at play in that situation -- how a society views divorce/divorced people, laws relating to divorce (who gets the kids, alimony, etc.).

Personally, I can see the attraction of approaching marriage as a business deal as it is done here with arranged marriages. Emotions are removed from the equation and a person is chosen because they suit you and will be a good match for you. That CAN make for a better long-term relationship. And if they are good to one another, the love (inshallah) will come/grow later.

But there is much to be said about being really attracted to the person you're going to spend the rest of your life with. Yes, the flame of initial love wanes and there must be something more to sustain a marriage when that happens, but if you don't even have that spark or any chemistry with your spouse, then I think it would be rather painful to endure a passion-less marriage for the rest of your life.

And let's be frank: it's obvious that there is enormous pressure on folks here to marry who their families think they should -- usually a first cousin. And while we can call it arranged and not forced, the bottom line is that at a certain point, kids here will not go against their parents' wishes -- even if they truly don't want this person. If it makes mom happy, then they'll do it.

The way to heaven is under the mother's feet, right?

"Most plain girls are virtuous because of the scarcity of opportunity to be otherwise."

-- Maya Angelou

I guess like it or not, marriage in Qatar is just not working:

"Already, the divorce rate in the country is very high. Around 30 percent of the marriages here end in divorce and now, we have more and more women who opt not to marry. I’m not saying it’s a bad thing for women not to marry, but these are things that, in the end, will affect our society and the family unit."

http://thepeninsulaqatar.com/Display_news.asp?section=Local_News&subsection=Qatar+News&month=April2009&file=Local_News2009041625147.xml

and

http://www.thepeninsulaqatar.com/Display_news.asp?section=local_news&month=april2008&file=local_news2008041315930.xml

Something must be fundamentally wrong with the way families approach the idea of marriage if so many marriages end so poorly.

From the way a lot of people are talking in this thread, you could get the impression that Muslim marriages are a pathway to domestic bliss, whereas western marriages are shams.

This debate would have be very objective if the sentece A MUSLIM WOMAN SHOUL BE GIVEN A FREEDOM OF CHOOSING ANY HUSBAND SHE WISHES?

could be clearified and given more analysis because, my belief is that no one rebuff muslim woman, and no one disallow her to choose are choice but, it should be under Islamic conditions as well as Muslim men also.

This is indeed a political debate I suppose!!!

I think something was lost in the translation of the debate title which is unfortunate as is easy to picture the audience coming from all over the place just as we have done and thus not producing the kind of really good discussion the DDs have before. Perhaps a QLer at QF can let them know just our little group went all over the place trying to figure out the subject!

Regardless of faith there is absolutely no such thing as uneccessary contact if it is respectful, well intentioned and honest. And the man (speaking as one who learned the hard way) actually listens.

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A wise young crackpot knows no fear - Ian Dury.

True Speed, I was voicing the same thought as of your first point. Clearly the second one is a forced marriage. It may end up in breaking the knot. Or sometimes one has to live throughtout the life in an unhappy unhealthy realtionship.

Everything's gonna be alright!!!

True Khanan. I think in this case it highlights a weakness of the motion itself, in that there are other issues that will inevitably be brought up, and will eventually overshadow the original one. Will be interesting to see how it's managed at the actual debate.

Threads and posts changes and then you have to reach to the top to know what the author of the thread is asking/posting....:D

____________________________________________________

Have Courage To Live.

Anyone Can Die.

families. But again there are 2 different scenerios:

1) Family select the bride or the groom and couple (the bride and the groom) agrees happily to their family decisions.

2) Family select the bride or the groom and couple (the bride and the groom) do not agree to their family decison but due to some reasons they are forced to tie a knot, very few knots last otherwise most cases of forced marriages end up in breaking the knot ...

In anycase we do not support force marriges, whatever reason.

So the topic has now turned from 'should muslim women be allowed to choose who they marry' to 'how can they choose when they're restricted as to who they can meet'.

The choice of a partner should be the one with the most "taqwa" (piety). The prophet recommended the suitors see each other before going through with marriage. It is unreasonable for two people to be thrown together and be expected to relate and be intimate when they know nothing of each other. The couple are permitted to look at each other with a critical eye and not a lustful one. This ruling does not contradict the ayah which says that believing men and women should lower their gaze.

- The couple, however are not permitted to be alone in a closed room or go out together alone. As the hadith says "when a man and a woman are together alone, there is a third presence i.e. shaitan.

- There is no concept of courtship in Islam as it is practised in the west. There is no dating or living in defacto relationship or trying each other out before they commit to each other seriously. There is to be no physical relationship what so ever before marriage. The romantic notions that young people often have, have proven in most cases to be unrealistic and harmful to those involved. We only have to look at the alarming divorce rate in the west to understand this point. e.g. the couple know each other for years, are intimate, live together and so on yet somehow this does not guarantee the success of the future marriage. Romance and love simply do not equal a everlasting bond between two people.

Fact: Romance and love die out very quickly when we have to deal in the real world. The unrealistic expectations that young people have is what often contributes to the failure of their relationship.

- The west make fun of the Islamic way of marriage in particular arranged marriage, yet the irony is that statistically arranged marriages prove to be more successful and lasting than romantic types of courtship.

This is because people are blinded by the physical attraction and thus do not choose the compatible partner.

Love blinds people to potential problems in the relationship. There is an Arabic saying: which says "the mirror of love is blind, it makes zucchini into okra". Arranged marriages on the other hand, are based not on physical attraction or romantic notions but rather on critical evaluation of the compatibility of the couple.

This is why they often prove successful.

Selection of a partner:

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

The choice of a partner should be the one with the most "taqwa" (piety). The prophet recommended the suitors see each other before going through with marriage. It is unreasonable for two people to be thrown together and be expected to relate and be intimate when they know nothing of each other. The couple are permitted to look at each other with a critical eye and not a lustful one. This ruling does not contradict the ayah which says that believing men and women should lower their gaze.

- The couple, however are not permitted to be alone in a closed room or go out together alone. As the hadith says "when a man and a woman are together alone, there is a third presence i.e. shaitan.

- There is no concept of courtship in Islam as it is practised in the west. There is no dating or living in defacto relationship or trying each other out before they commit to each other seriously. There is to be no physical relationship what so ever before marriage. The romantic notions that young people often have, have proven in most cases to be unrealistic and harmful to those involved. We only have to look at the alarming divorce rate in the west to understand this point. e.g. the couple know each other for years, are intimate, live together and so on yet somehow this does not guarantee the success of the future marriage. Romance and love simply do not equal a everlasting bond between two people.

Fact: Romance and love die out very quickly when we have to deal in the real world. The unrealistic expectations that young people have is what often contributes to the failure of their relationship.

- The west make fun of the Islamic way of marriage in particular arranged marriage, yet the irony is that statistically arranged marriages prove to be more successful and lasting than romantic types of courtship.

This is because people are blinded by the physical attraction and thus do not choose the compatible partner.

Love blinds people to potential problems in the relationship. There is an Arabic saying: which says "the mirror of love is blind, it makes zucchini into okra". Arranged marriages on the other hand, are based not on physical attraction or romantic notions but rather on critical evaluation of the compatibility of the couple.

This is why they often prove successful.

The word "zawj" is used in the Qur'an to mean a pair or a mate. In general it usage refers to marriage. The general purpose of marriage is that the sexes can provide company to one another, love to one another, procreate children and live in peace and tranquility to the commandments of Allah.

* Marriage serves as a means to emotional and sexual gratification and as a means of tension reduction. It is also a form of Ibadah because it is obeying Allah and his messenger - i.e. Marriage is seen as the only possible way for the sexes to unite. One could choose to live in sin, however by choosing marriage one is displaying obedience to Allah.

Marriage is "mithaq" - a solemn covenant (agreement). It is not a matter which can be taken lightly. It should be entered into with total commitment and full knowledge of what it involves. It is not like buying a new dress where you can exchange it if you don't like it. Your partner should be your choice for life. One should be mature enough to understand the demands of marriage so that the union can be a lasting one. For a marriage to be valid certain conditions must be met.

1) consent of both parties.

2) " Mahr" a gift from the groom to his bride.

3) Witnesses- 2 male or female.

4) The marriage should be publicized, it should never be kept secret as it leads to suspicion and troubles within the community.

Is Marriage obligatory?

obviously one can talk necessary things in islamic dating , once marraige is fixed that u will marry and for a successful future , u can know each other better through islamic dating, u can know each other through talks,

confronting a complete stranger, spending long time with him or her, with no assurance that u will get married is not permissible,

u can talk and know about each other , u can meet once , twice , thrice , as many times u want , but a muharram must be present, and in case u dont think u can spend ur life with the said person, dont marry , then no question of divorce,

if u do a love marraige whats the guarantee that u wont divorce, i have heard of many who do love marraige but at the end it ends with divorce,

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i want to learn until i die, if u have some knowledge then share it with me.

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The Almighty knows the best and you do not know. He teaches us what we did not know.

Islam does not permit 'Unnecessary chats and meetings' due to certain reasons (which I am sure you are well aware of :-) )

I know Speed. In our part the mariiage is barely between the bride and groom. It is in fact the marriage of two families, isn't it?

Everything's gonna be alright!!!

talk, but again within the limitation set in Islam.

Shreeya... Forced marriage means to force someone to do without his/her wish.

In arrange marriage boy and girl at some extend agree to their parents/ elder decision as i mentioned above in my post.

Ishqia, surely a few "unneccessary chats & meetings" are better than a nasty divorce.

they can meet but a muharram has to be there with them

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i want to learn until i die, if u have some knowledge then share it with me.

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Yes, they let the people and their families too to strenghthen their bonds. Sex may or may not be the part of it.

But tell me, when two families arrange marriage between two strangers and not allow them to meet once and get to know each other on their own, then why can't it be called a forced marriage?

Everything's gonna be alright!!!

Even in Islam, the boy and girl are allowed to meet and talk / get to know each other..

The key word here is , whether we like it or not "MUSLIM".

As Khanan, Speed and others have highlighted, a Muslim woman is free to marry a man of her choice within reasonably broad guidelines.

Oryx has rightly touched on the issues of Arranged and Forced marriage. Islam does not allow for forced marriage. This is a cultural practice, which is surely, but slowly being done away with.

I believe the debate will be very interesting and worth participating in.

But arranged marriages certainly permits 'unnecessary talkings and meetings' before marriage. In fact that period of UT-UM is supposed to be the best period of life...:)

Everything's gonna be alright!!!

by unnecessary talking and meeting , i mean dates...

what has this promoted , date for some time, then break up, broken hearts , broken feeling , illegitimate relation ships, unwanted kids, etc etc etc,,, very few end up in good.. most only indulge for fun

meeting a person who has proposed to you in presence of a muharram men , so that u can know each other better , is permissible in islam

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i want to learn until i die, if u have some knowledge then share it with me.

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Are you serious Ishqia? You think there is unneccessary talking & meeting before & after marriage. I'm sorry but are you looking for a marriage or a stud farm?

if you come out and look from a greater angle, not many families in east allow their girls to marry by love

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i want to learn until i die, if u have some knowledge then share it with me.

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I guess the point is that there is a growing number of women who are forced to chose between their religion, and being compelled to marry a man who they wouldn't otherwise chose.

There are women who probably think that such an out-dated concept is demeaning and insulting, and as a result they no longer wish to follow the religion in such a strict way.

No Gypsy, and in my book, there's no unecessary talking after it either. A husband should hang on every word of his wife's.

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firstly there is no unnecessary meeting, when there is no unnecessary meeting there is no unnecessary talk,

its not only b4 marraige but also after marraige,

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i want to learn until i die, if u have some knowledge then share it with me.

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Can there possibly be unnecessary talking before marriage?

yes ,

but one can always indulge with other when there is need,

not simply , there should be a purpose,

indulging simply in unnecessary talks, going out together, etc is not allowed, because there is no good out of it, because it will only promote , premarital love, sex, lies, disobedience to parents etc... all of which is completely prohibited..

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i want to learn until i die, if u have some knowledge then share it with me.

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It should also be noted that arranged marriage is a widespread practice with non-Muslims too. Take India, for example, millions of Hindus and Christians have arranged marriages.

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So Muslims men being alone with women are also going against their religion too, I guess.

Yes, but as we all know, not everyone follows their religion completely. It's important for a debate to go ahead that everyone understands the definitions of the motion.

A true muslim is one who follows it completely, whether it be man or woman,

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i want to learn until i die, if u have some knowledge then share it with me.

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Ok, understood.

So I guess that raises the question - do we take the 'muslim women' part of the motion to mean only those who follow the rules of Islam completely?

islam doesnt permit dating from any angle,

it is said, no man and a woman are alone and the satan is the third one,

a muharram must be present with women when a na muharram enters upon her,

a muharram is a father, brother, materanal and paternal uncles, etc

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i want to learn until i die, if u have some knowledge then share it with me.

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So what part of Islam forbids women from dating?

yes fubar, a true muslim is one who follow islam in all parts of life,

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i want to learn until i die, if u have some knowledge then share it with me.

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I know plenty of Muslim women who date who they chose. Are you saying they aren't true Muslims?

islamic date exists, but in tat u have to have a muharram men with the girl

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i want to learn until i die, if u have some knowledge then share it with me.

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Azam said - A muslim woman cann't date and choose her man.

Why can't she? There are plenty who do.

in islam women are not forced to marry against there will, indeed if the marraige take place against her will that marraige is rendered as invalid,

but a women cannot alone marry with just her own will, her marraige will be invalid if she marries against the will of her wali(parents and guardian)

for a valid marraige, consent of both the women and her guardian is equally required,

thats one of the laws of islam, no debate please

in islam though a man can marry with his own wish and without consent from his parents , but consent from parents is something which is encouraged,

and if you marry against ur parents will , it will be disobedience,

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i want to learn until i die, if u have some knowledge then share it with me.

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Who STOPS....

Islam Does not stop a Man or WOMAN to marry his or her Choice....

The ONE Who Stops is Mr. ME

It has nothing to do with ISLAM.

Maybe not everywhere Speed, but here in the Gulf I know quite a few that were forced to marry girls they don't love.

Mr. P, technically they can, but they are under just as much family pressure to marry right as the girls.

Azam, they are actually allowed to meet in "private" since they've signed an engagement contract it becomes up to the parents what they can and can't do, they can even go out in public together.

The only downside of this procedure is that a girl is frowned upon if, for whatever reason, the engagment doesn't work out and they break it off.

they don't love. There could be some but those percentage of men are very few.

I can put things in this way to make you understand our culture.

Incase of men (forced marriages) I will not call it force marriage because most of the men who marry on the choice of their parents is the satisfy them or to obey and respect their orders/ decisions.

Yes, I do agree that there are high number of forced marriages incase of Muslim women which we do not support in today's world.

Fubar: I second your statement, things changes from time to time. That is why we have Supreme Islamic Leaders, who from time to time release new fatwas (A legal opinion or ruling issued by an Islamic scholar).

With no problems ?

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I think you have me confused with someone who gives a sh1t.

MR. P, in this region most men can't marry who they want for the same reasons.

Not true Azam. I read in "Girls of Riyadh" (which, yes, is a fictional book, but written by a Saudi girl about love and marriage in Saudi) and she says that after the agreement to marry the couple can take as long as they wish between the signing of the agreement and the actual wedding to get to know each other, talk, etc. Before they have to live together as man and wife.

i say they protect their assets and try to gain more. correct me if i'm wrong.

want, due to religous or family reasons.

Until these change, women will never be fully free to marry who they want.

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I think you have me confused with someone who gives a sh1t.

I think there's a problem here with not only women being unable to choose their spouse but men too. Many men are forced into marriages with "suitable" Qatari girls that they don't love.

I agree that there's nothing wrong with an arranged marriage as long as you're given some time to get to know each other.

nothing is gonna,or will,change.

As people have wrote here,..." In the Muslim world", which means that women are still gonna be tied to only marrying Muslim men, instead of a man of any faith whom she may be in love with.

This will, IMHO, still lead to the secret meetings of the couples involved and hiding the truth from the families.

How about letting a woman marry who she wants to marry ?

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I think you have me confused with someone who gives a sh1t.

I can see that in the past there was a time when women were less educated than men, and didn't have the social or cultural chance to mix with the opposite gender.

During this time, they had no opportunity to meet men, and probably lacked the ability to assess their suitability to marriage.

But in a time when women are free to go to university, enter the workforce and meet other men socially, I think it's an insult to their intelligence to say that they are not capable of objectively deciding who will be suitable for them in marriage.

For the record, I too am not against the idea of arranged marriage, but it must be with the informed consent of both parties.

She is like me she uses her eyes too much to choose a partner and ended up with good looking men who weren't good partners.

Sometimes you need someone to look at whats important for a marriage (not just good looks)

So on line we had some long chats before I introduced him...

With him I told him what behaviour I expected if he was going to be lucky enough to meet my best friend.

So I strongly believe in arranged marriages.....arranged should mean very close to just introducing.

Forced marriage is bad. That's for sure.

Arranged marriage is ok, as long as both the man and woman are happy with the arrangement, and in my opinion they should have had time to get to know each other and fall in love. Does that happen?

And of course there's the issue of marriage between family members (which sometimes happens in arranged marriages, correct?) and the problems this can cause from a genetic point of view. That's not good in my opinion.

Yep your marriage (Al Hamdullah) is a great example of introducing potentially compatible people for marriage...then giving them the CHOICE.

I introduced two friends of mine over the internet

a) one mexican

b) one south african

both in their respective countries

they an now happily married with a gorgeous daughter...

Mashallah.

So I arranged the hook up and introductions....they chose.

Same thing.

I was so happy to be the ring bearer at their wedding.

my best friend now owes me a husband ;)

I don't disagree with arranged marriage, but do have issue with forced marriage obviously.

As for love, it is indeed a building block to any marriage but is only a mere fraction of what it takes to make a marriage last. I do believe you can love just about anyone if you can respect them and what they do to ensure you and your family is taken care of. I never thought you could "learn" to love someone but seems in these parts it happens quite often.

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"Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock - Will Rogers"

there is huge difference b/w an arranged and forced marriage..

Mine is an arranged one, I will never call it a forced marriage. Consent from both (me and Mrs. Khanan) were duly taken by respective parents.

____________________________________________________

Have Courage To Live.

Anyone Can Die.

I think this may be part of it Tallg but this extends to any religion/culture that practises arranged marriages.

It can be that parents are looking out for their daughters futures, it could be due to family obligations and strenthening family ties, it could be that parents can be a bit more objective sometimes than a young lass who is smitten and see things in her suitor she may be blinded to.

Arranged marriage has been practised for so long I think the reasoning is limitless and perhaps each case individual. I am not sure arranged marriage is the biggest issue but rather forced marriage. Islamically a gal should approve even if her suitors are arranged but sadly this doesnt always happen in any culture/religion.

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"Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock - Will Rogers"

I guess my values place personal happiness over financial security or social climbing. Perhaps there are still some families who will treat their children like assets of a business, and part of merger negotiations.

I'm old fashioned. I think marriage is about love.

Thanks Khanan you beat me to it

You must distinguish between

a) forced marriages

b) arranged marriages

I think most Qataris fall in the 'b'- I would love someone to come up with a bunch of suitors who are all willing to give me a huge dowry and loads of gold!

However 'a' happens in many other places....

Because their parents would like them to marry into a well respected and successful family?

Here's my two cents:

Speed, you ask if the motion refers to freedom to marry any man, or any Muslim man.

I'm not religious scholar, but I was under the impression that if a Muslim woman marries from outside the faithshe is as good as an apostate, although I believe that men have the express permission to marry anyone from the book, right?

So using that logic, a Muslim woman marrying a non-Muslim man is no long a Muslim, and hence the debate motion no longer applies.

As well as forumlating reasons WHY a Muslim woman should be allowed to marry the (Muslim) man of her choice, it would be just as interesting to hear the reasons why she should NOT be able to marry the man of her choice.

Are there any?

Agree with you Khanan. But while Islam does allow them to choose, would you say that arranged marriages were/are a part of Muslim culture? Or is it more particular to just Arab culture? Or even perhaps just Qatari culture?

Islam does allow women to marry men of her choice and vice versa but as speed mentioned within the limitations and boundaries set by the ISLAM.

As a muslim,i ts obligatory on the part of parents/guardians to take consent from their daughters in case of an arranged marriages.

Marriages of choice is not a gurantee to a successful marriage, but it is a basic right of both the gender to choose whom they want to live and share their life.

Force Marriages, child marriages etc are mainly cultural and customs rather than religious.

____________________________________________________

Have Courage To Live.

Anyone Can Die.

Well, I hope ur right ASHWINDOKE

From what I've learnt in my time here, I believe a lot of Muslim women in Qatar already make that choice for themselves.

TAllg - Even tht would be a big step forward.... to marry a Muslim of Choice...

Atif Bhai - Lol.. true it is Difficult.. but nothing is impossible... nothing... :)

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Reality is a Illusion Caused Due to Deficiency of Alcohol

So the debate is about women being free to choose another muslim man to marry, rather than having it decided for them.

a Muslim woman .... I think we must consider what Quran and Sunnah says about Muslim women's rights in Islam.

Ofcourse, In Islam women have the rights to choose their life partner, but subject to Islamic Conditions.

From my point of view the the debate topic itself is political.

"Muslim women should be free to marry ANYONE they choose"

I don't know what they mean by ANYONE ? are they referring to Any Muslim or ANYONE includes the followers of other believes !!

But when we read this statement:

"The debate which takes place at 7.30pm at Qatar Foundation today before being broadcast on BBC World News on June 6 and 7, will examine the issues facing women when they marry in the Islamic world and how much their choices are governed by religion, family and political considerations."

I think it is clear that they are referring to ANYONE in Islamic World.

Let's find out what will be the outcome..:)

Well people need to volunteer to present each side of the debate.

thanks tallg and speed! and nice idea about the debate tallg, i hope it would materialize and i would love to join

that i said just to satisfy emotional readers, personally i think IT'S MISSION IMPOSSIBLE both in Asian countries & Arabs

.

Most of the Men really get very much insecure whenever women's right is being discussed or raised in any Islamic Conservative countries.

What we need are a person or persons to present an argument for each side of the debate, then we all comment on that, then at the end everyone votes.

Freedom to choose who you want to marry is a basic human right. I hope they find in favour of the motion.

From The Doha Debates website; http://www.thedohadebates.com/debates/attend.asp

From The Doha Debates website; http://www.thedohadebates.com/page.asp?p=3285

Watch the latest Doha Debate on BBC World News on June 6th and 7th at the following times:

Doha times:

Saturday June 6th: 10:10, 18:10, 22:10

Sunday June 7th: 03:10, 10:10, 18:10, 22:10

GMT:

Saturday June 6th: 07:10, 15:10, 19:10

Sunday June 7th: 00:10, 07:10, 15:10, 19:10

Hope we end our discussions in a peaceful and professional manner.

you will find details here: http://www.dohadebates.com/

speed, what time will this be aired on BBC? i'd like to watch this interesting topic and one more question, how can anybody get a chance to be on Doha Debates?

Similar problem exist in India too.

Being free to marry anyone is looked upon as being rebellious to the respective religion... or region you belong to.

Things are changing in India.. but in ME.. as Atif bhai says... change ll be real slow... :(

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Reality is a Illusion Caused Due to Deficiency of Alcohol

Good topic. I wonder if there's some way QL can run a debate on this topic, without it just turning into the usual slanging match?

I hope it must be implemented in Muslim World too. Freedom to Marry anyone is indeed both men & women's choice.

.

But I think it will take many decades to be implemented in Muslim World.