and Indians complain of racism abroad....!
http://www.ndtv.com/news/india/doctors_work_together_but_eat_by_caste.php
This is about highly educated Doctors in an Indian Medical College whose food is cooked in separate kitchens based on their caste hierarchy!
When this is how educated Indians live in India, what right do Indians have to complain about Racism elsewhere?
its a never ending story of racism...
Its Shame!!!
Malpaso has re-emerged as K.N.I.
heh heh heh... smart move... never return to the scene of the crime eh?
Ver, forget about it. thats a typical behaviour of these islamist, never wanted to be left behind. India is full of Hindu, at least theres nothing to worry about for now.
Please don't see India of 14th or 15th centuray as modern day India. In thosedays, India was more like US of today . She attracted opportunistic and greedy people from all parts of the world . They had no love for this territory except for looting its endless bounty. They used all kind of false excuses like religion, races for doing it.Aryans used their vedas, Moslem invaders used their religion, Britisher used their race and todays politicians are using democracy to exploit this territory. At times, I feel Hitler was right about his theory of pure race. Mixing of races only leads to a hybrid generation which doesn't have any loyality towards their land or people. India is the best example of it. I am sure common working class of India was as unhappy in those times as they are today. Why did these stupid Rajahs and Badshahs did not build education and medical facilities for their subject rather than building extravagant no good structures like Taj Mahal. Answer is clear. They didn't care as much the politicians of today don't care. Baba Ramdeo once said that in this country nobody can climb up without using the steps of caste, religion or region. How true it is? Incompetant people get admitted to best of the Universaties, governments are scared of hanging convicted terrorist criminals, a gang of hooligans call themselves Shivsena.The list is endless.
race is race... as in running race...
and ism is ism as in Arabic for name
so 'racism' is a running race for Arabic names
wat is racism ?
120kph why you shame to say your nationaly!philipno crap.
Racis is everywhere.... I am from India and I agree that casteism, religoinism, etc are all part of Racism, however, this is also evident in each and every country. Globalisation is solving this problem. One have to be only aware of one fact that India is not just one country, its a mix of various races - something like many countries in one country. We should salute that people have stayed united, despite various oppression. Let us free our mind and be one.
this is what you want to hear...
that the real oppressor's of India were the Mughals
and not the BRITISH IMPERIAL EMPIRE!!
By verisimilitude at 2009-08-30
This is why I love QL..............
the big issue is that madhatfx thinks the 'alleged oppression' of Islamic rulers in India before the 18th century is in some way connected to the separate messes in a Bihari Medical College Hostel in the 21st century...
Agreed britexpat. My last post on the subject.
" when someone annoys you it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, BUT, it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and slap that @&%$%^$$#&!!!!"
The article was about casteism in India, from an Indian source.
So what is the big issue ?
Will answer later in detail about casteism after office. For now verisimilitude Mughals were actually very good rulers and that has been documented in most of the books. Aurangzeb was another story though, He did kill plenty of Hindus and Sikhs for refusing to convert to Islam. Guru Teg Bahadur singh and 4 sons of Guru Gobind Singh were killed by him over the same issue. before him Mughals were not oppressors and helped shape Indian society the way we know it today.
" when someone annoys you it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, BUT, it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and slap that @&%$%^$$#&!!!!"
Muslim conversions through jihad is just ONE of the MANY ways in which Islam was spread in India... that is my point and the gist of the article... I have never said there were no forced conversions and religious persecutions... I have only contested the scale of it... you claim that majority of Muslims were forced to convert and I challenged that...
These are incidents which happened well over 200 years back and is not documented... We can never know for certain the nature and scale of the oppressions...
Besides, what does it have to do with caste based segregation of messes in Bihar???
If you want to start another thread on Islamic oppression on Islam in India... go ahead... but know this... many countries have had in its history wars, religious persecutions and ethnic cleansing... modern 'civilization' as we know it is built on centuries and millenniums of oppression and war...
By bringing that up the Islamic oppression in India on this forum, you are just creating venues for hate towards Muslims and little else... there is nothing constructive for us to learn out of this...
These biased interpretations of the Mughal Empire is an attempt to portray Islamic oppression of Hindus in India to garner votes for communal parties... or did you not hear Varun Gandhi's speeches?...
Do these interpretations that you touted say that the Mughals banned sati... a commendable act? It says Hindu religious festivals were banned but does it say this was done due to skirmishes that arose between enemy factions? Does it mention that even Muslim festivals were banned for the same reason during that period?
Again regarding the temple destruction... why is it not mentioned that temple destructions predates the arrival of Islamic rule? That it was a means of one Hindu ruler to impose his or her power over that of another Hindu ruler by looting their temple and stealing the Gods? Hindus did a fair bit of oppression themselves on Buddhists... but strangely, those issues don't make it to the press... why?... cos it does not get votes... that's why...
Too many historians with biased agendas are working towards painting the history of India in saffron and I am sorry but you've just gulped the fare they had to offer diligently... hook, line and sinker...
vers why did u leave out a very important point in ur comments........
# Muslims sought conversion through jihad.
you come across as one who is ready to distort the facts when its comes to putting ur points across. The wiki link had a full list of points but u chose not to state the full source that shows ur deceitful intent.
And perhaps u need to look at this wiki link too,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Hindus#During_Islamic_rule_of_the_Indian_sub-continent
give respect to get respect...peace
A passing Muslim boy heard the shouting and came to find out what was wrong. He recognized the girl drowning in the pond as the princess, but was hesitant about saving her because untouchability and if a lower-caste person touched an upper-caste person it was considered a sin, possibly punishable by death.
Embedded within this lies the Hindu nationalism concept of Islam as a foreign imposition and Hinduism being a natural condition of the natives who resisted, resulting the failure of the project to Islamicize the Indian subcontinent and is highly embroiled with the politics of the partition and communalism in India.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arakkal
There is a consensus among scholars that the Arakkal family had Nair origins.[1][2][3]
In the 17th century, one of the Padanairs (generals) of Kolathiri, Arayankulangara Nair, converted to Islam. His wife was the daughter of Kolathiri, and they later came to be known as Arakkal. Around this time, many Muslim merchant families became financially influential in the Malabar region. When the Arakkal family took control of Lakshadweep, they achieved near-royal status.
There is a legend that, centuries ago, Kolathu Nadu (presently Kannur district) was ruled by Chirakkal Raja. His daughter began to drown while bathing in the Chirakkal kulam (pond). Her friends cried and shouted but were unable to rescue her. A passing Muslim boy heard the shouting and came to find out what was wrong. He recognized the girl drowning in the pond as the princess, but was hesitant about saving her because untouchability and if a lower-caste person touched an upper-caste person it was considered a sin, possibly punishable by death. However, the boy rescued her and gave her his mundu to cover herself. When the news reached the Chirakkal Raja, he called his daughter and the Muslim boy to him.
At that time, if a man gave a "pudava" (a long cloth used for covering the body) to an unmarried woman, they were considered married. The scholars of the court told the Raja that since his daughter was touched by a Muslim, she was no longer allowed to enter the palace. However, the boy had given her his pudava so she was married to him as well. As per the custom the king had no other choice but to give his daughter to the Muslim boy. The Raja was unhappy to give his daughter to a poor family, so he made the boy ruler of part of the country.
The area given to the boy was known as Arakkal and his family was called the Arakkal family. The ruler's daughter was known as Arakkal Beevi.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_India#Conversion_controversy
Conversion controversy
Considerable controversy exists both in scholarly and public opinion about the conversions to Islam typically represented by the following schools of thought:[3]
That the bulk of Muslims are descendants of migrants from the Iranian plateau or Arabs.[4]
A related view is that conversions occurred for non-religious reasons of pragmatism and patronage such as social mobility among the Muslim ruling elite or for relief from taxes for being a non-muslim[3][4]
Conversion was a result of the actions of Sufi saints and involved a genuine change of heart[3]
Conversion came from Buddhists and the en masse conversions of lower castes for social liberation and as a rejection of the oppressive existent caste structures.[4]
Was a combination, initially made under duress followed by a genuine change of heart[3]
As a socio-cultural process of diffusion and integration over an extended period of time into the sphere of the dominant Muslim civilization and global polity at large.[4]
Embedded within this lies the Hindu nationalism concept of Islam as a foreign imposition and Hinduism being a natural condition of the natives who resisted, resulting the failure of the project to Islamicize the Indian subcontinent and is highly embroiled with the politics of the partition and communalism in India.[3]
An estimate of the number of people killed, based on the Muslim chronicles and demographic calculations, was done by the author K.S. Lal in his book Growth of Muslim Population in Medieval India, who claimed that between 1000 CE and 1500 CE, the population of Hindus decreased by 80 million. His work has come under criticism by historians such as Simon Digby (School of Oriental and African Studies) and the Marxist historian Irfan Habib for its agenda and lack of accurate data in pre-census times. Lal has responded to these criticisms in later works[Reference Needed]. Historians such as Will Durant contend that Islam spread through violence.[5][6] |authorlink=Jadunath Sarkar |title=How the Muslims forcibly converted the Hindus of India, Pakistan and Bangladesh to Islam }} In particular the records kept by al-Utbi, Mahmud al-Ghazni's secretary, in the Tarikh-i-Yamini document several episodes of bloody military campaigns.[citation needed] Hindus who converted to Islam however were not completely immune to discrimination due to the Caste system among South Asian Muslims in India established by Ziauddin al-Barani in the Fatawa-i Jahandari.[7], where they were regarded as an "Ajlaf" caste and subjected to discrimination by the "Ashraf" castes[8].
Critics of the "Religion of the sword theory" point to the presence of the strong Muslim communities found in Southern India, modern day Bangladesh, Sri Lanka and western Burma, Indonesia and the Philippines coupled with the distinctive lack of equivalent Muslim communities around the heartland of historical Muslim empires in the Indian subcontinent as refutation to the "conversion by the sword theory".[4] The legacy of Muslim conquest of South Asia is a hotly debated issue even today. Different population estimates by economic historian Angus Maddison[9] show that India's total population, including adherents of all religions, did not decrease between 1000 and 1500, but increased by about 35 million, from 75 million to 110 million, during that time.
Bokaas are Bengalis but don't call a Bengali Bokaa unless you know them very well...
Verisi who are Bokaas?
firstly u habitually provide false information and that was the reason for my reply so lets take it point by point for your sake...
you say, "your considering the Mughals as an invasion and occupation of the country rather than acknowledging it as a part of Indian history borne of our own soil belies your saffron intent..."
saffron intent..I'm Christian i point out forced conversions by missionaries too....wish u would admit of the wrongdoings by ur Islamic predecessors.
you say,"Why bring up the idea that Indians were forcibly converted to Islam? How is that relevant to this discussion? What bearing does it have on casteism in current Indian society...
this is in reply to ur statement that many Muslims and Christians were converts from some of the lower castes and they used to be perceived as lower caste.....ur statement was erroneous just pointed it out read my post on this subject again....
you say,"And lets come to the fact itself... what you tout as fact... these forced conversions... the fantastic scale of it is the creation of a political entity with a clear communal agenda... Several studies on this matter are the subject to severe debate...
.....There is no agenda my friend and there is no severe debate on this subject dont know where u r gettin ur information from....
the history of what the Mughal rulers did has been well documented....dude why r u hesitant to admit that there were atrocities carried out by islamic rulers of the past...why they did this is what u should be investigating....r u under the impression that all islamic followers thruout the world have converted of their own free will.....grow up accept the fact that islam has also spread thru forced conversions of occupied lands....u get touchy when something wrong regarding islam turns up however true it may be and these are events that occurred in ur own backyard.....maybe u should stop being so partial and read history with an open mind.
u say,"The bottomline is... this discussion is not of relevance today except for academic interests... current generations ought not to bear the burden of the wrong doing of their earlier ancestors...
....Here again u contradict whatever u said before, did u not say "Several studies on this matter are the subject to severe debate..." but now u say current generations ought not to bear the burden of the wrong doing of their earlier ancestors.....why should they if nothing wrong was ever done....or does it mean u r now convinced that history was right.
heck im gettin bored with u vers....ur narrow mindedness of some topics is not a sign of ur astuteness but rather stubbornness.
If someone does not like to frequent a place because of the kind of crowd that hangs around there... how is that racist in any way? Would you have your wife with you on Akai roundabout on a Thursday evening?... my guess is probably not... some people are conscious of the crowd that frequent a place and plan accordingly... nothing wrong with that...
These incidents that you talked about do happen in India... people of low caste being denied access... and it is very wrong... BUT we need to put things in perspective... that's the point I would like to make on this thread... I think we have a more serious problem with povery and child employment... it doesn't attract half the posts on QL as casteism does... and that shows we are skewed in our perception.
As far as calling South Indians Madrassis and North Indians Biharis goes... So what? Let me get you more of these names... we have Mallus, Tallis, Gultis, Kannadigas, Jats, Kallus, Bokaas (forgive the language), Gujjus, Bhaiyas etc... Are you saying these names are racist? In that case... the terms Yankees and Pommies should be racist and guess what... apparently they are not...
As if all of these was not bad enough, at the end of your inane post, you contradicted everything you said by saying,"Ambedkar has done more harm than good by introducing benefits for (so called) lower classes, It has increased the divide." So if no preferences or incentives are given to people who have been discriminated historically and consequently find themselves financially and educationally backward... how do YOU propose we bridge this divide...
Get over what you read in your ninth and tenth standard social studies text books... Put on a global perspective... this is an international forum...
your considering the Mughals as an invasion and occupation of the country rather than acknowledging it as a part of Indian history borne of our own soil belies your saffron intent...
Why bring up the idea that Indians were forcibly converted to Islam? How is that relevant to this discussion? What bearing does it have on casteism in current Indian society...
I am Muslim... have you seen me or anyone else pointing fingers at Hindu Traditions for the origins of this practice on this thread?... NO... Why? for we accept it as a part of Indian history, culture and tradition...
For as much as Hinduism shaped India as we know it today, the Mughal Empire also played its part in shaping India geographically as we know it today....
And yet the irony is that you choose to point fingers at the Mughal Empire on a thread about casteism...
And lets come to the fact itself... what you tout as fact... these forced conversions... the fantastic scale of it is the creation of a political entity with a clear communal agenda... Several studies on this matter are the subject to severe debate...
The bottomline is... this discussion is not of relevance today except for academic interests... current generations ought not to bear the burden of the wrong doing of their earlier ancestors... Look at Israel if you are not convinced...
You bringing this up only serves the purpose of creating discord... get over it...
Dear Verisimilitude,
I am open to suggestions and your comments about my colonial hangover and noose around my neck although interesting are besides the point here.
Its not about me.
im not and no one from my family or friends bcz i do tell them and educate them well, btw i dont care if anyone will belive what i say but if you know me then u will know what i say is true. but i been around many indians at work,neighbours i find it duficult to belive this much they are racist. as i said (not all but majority)
What else is new? They are always complaining...
MO RIN...YUN LANG!!!
yes fahar...we definitely are....but dont be so judgmental.....i get treated differently at my work place because im not arab or European/American so.....
the human trait to bring their own people into the workplace is again not confined to just us.....are u definitely sure that none of ur kinsfolk are not racist if u are then my apologies for terming u too a fellow racist.
RSS...who...hahahaha.....
vers u r beginning to disappoint me.....
like ive said lets get back to the topic respects to the thread starter.....maybe u have something worthwhile and factual to state.....
give respect to get respect....peace
majority of indians are racist!!!! even in gcc, (not all) but MAJORITY. very very racist. in work places look how they deal with nonindian and how they deal with their fellow indian, really you indians who are good try to educate ur people! when they get a job somewhere they dont want someone else to be there they jsut bring another indians till full department is full of them. THEY ARE REALLY RACIST! this is true if u like it or not.
no problem PM....yes i am a admirer of art and architecture myself there is so much to see in the world and so little time....at least thru the net one can experience and view so many things.....
lets go back to the original topic....much to discuss still.
spew out all that the RSS have fed you...
you may mean. I do not mean to condone outside invasions.
I am referring to their contributions to art and architecture. I also recognize the fabulous contributions to art and architecture made by Hindus and Buddhists in india.
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
yes please read with more attention please do u need to have everything explained in detail i am not disputing the origin of the first Muslim convert to Islam for all we care it might be you....Lol
My comment states majority of the conversions....not the first....No need to jump the gun each time u get a rush of blood to wherever....
PM...great Mughal empire.....dont think so....a era of oppression and conquests.....followed by the cunning great British empire...and the great Spaniards and the great french and the great Portuguese.....great.....just my opinion of course u r entitled to ur own.
give respect to get respect....peace
and then the great Mughal empire. :-)
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
madhatfx said
"the truth is that many hundreds of years ago the majority of conversions were forced on by ruling Muslim empires and by Christian missionaries during their colonial rule"
Do you know who were the first Muslims in India to convert to Islam?... research...
I think this is something all Indians have to live with for the present.....yes all sorts of casteism, racism, abuse and corruption exists in India no doubt....
But education for all and empowerment of all people at the lower end of society will allow everyone to be equal partners in the growth of India and consequently get rid of such evils but keeping in mind the sheer size of the country could be at least 20 to 30 years for this to happen....
will seem a long time for an individual but when u are talking about a society that has to accept such changes for itself....(after all we r not china to impose on the people)...to self reflect and introspect and abolish such evils is not really a long time....change not imposed on society has a greater chance to survive forever.
India has never shied in trying to hide its problems but history has consistently shown that the path it had undertaken has served as a model for change throughout the world.
Just to clarify, was stated earlier that many Muslims and Christians converted to escape the caste issue....maybe they do so now but the truth is that many hundreds of years ago the majority of conversions were forced on by ruling Muslim empires and by Christian missionaries during their colonial rule....the present generations of those converts now represent the majority of both Muslims and Christians.....we are who we are.
Lancer, Tiida, SUNNY (korean only)
Sunny... it depends... there's a korean and a japanese
the korean one is a lower caste... especially the manual gear
bijan has a severa case of colonial hangover...
observe the white man's noose round his neck...
which reminds me...
I saw a man have a photograph taken at the CORNICHE... at mid-noon!!!
fully dressed... with tie, white shirt and trousers... in one of the corniche parking lots... with his hand resting on a brand new white Prado
yes... exactly... corniche... mid-noon... photo session... tie... parking lot...
If anyone see's him, please tell him there's a new Prado coming out in November...
You forgot the lowest caste of Tiida..
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
the castes are... Yaris, COROLLA, CAMRY, PRADO, Land Cruiser...
there are a few converts too... CIVIC, ACCORD...
and all the castes are white...
You may also notice that I, too, respond much better and am willing to engage in educational dialogue when I am addressed respectfully :-) I learned a lot from ver after he readdressed and clarified some issues in previous posts.
Perhaps if we all turn over a new leaf, the discussion might be more fruitful. :-)
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
One form of prejudice once eradicated (or even lessened) often gives way to another form of prejudice. We have a big problem in my country with the socio-economic divide now. And that has led to new prejudices across all racial lines from what I have observed.
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
Correctly said bijan..
" when someone annoys you it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, BUT, it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and slap that @&%$%^$$#&!!!!"
"I personally think it (any form of segregation) is not right and is an impediment to progress."
I don't agree with that...
I've mentioned this before on the same thread...
just casteism on its own is not evil
its the hierarchical aspect of casteism that is detrimental
the unique cultures of each caste adds vibrancy to the multicultural collage that is India...
I'd personally be sad if all the colours on the palette were to mix up and become a dull blob of grey...
I've noticed that about Europeans... their desire that immigrants should ideally 'dissolve' in to mainstream society...
Sorry... we've been around for a long time and we haven't dissolved and we get along albeit the occasional tussle... but hey... its a billion people... we need something to keep our 5600 newspapers business running...
Doesn't help you solve it, quite the opposite. Don't get me wrong, your country, your laws, do what's best for you, I can only tell you what I think and you can take it or leave it. I personally think it (any form of segregation) is not right and is an impediment to progress.
But in the end, class divides that inevitably come with capitalism/free markets, well that's something you're going to be seeing much more of as you emerge from the developing into the developed world. And gated communities, everything in the hands of two percent, and places you can't go and things you can't be get demarcated in a much more brutal manner with a much bigger brush. This is how it is in the west, and everywhere else too.
"By recognizing that this does still exist, everyone can work together to eradicate this evil."
you make it sound like we have not yet woken up to casteism...
why are you fixated with the idea that we do not acknowledge its existence?...
we do and its well on its way OUT...
lets work together...but its hard to trust indians?they are very chamcha...
Well said..
Casteism is a stain on Indian society, which is so rich in culture and heritage.
Yes, there has been progress in the past fewyears, but the sad fact is that especially in rural areas, old attitudes and practices remain.
By recognizing that this does still exist, everyone can work together to eradicate this evil.
yeah whatever...
whatever!
I am an Indian and we are very racist. We should stop complaining about Australians and others until we clean up our own acts first.
I have met highly educated young Indians who have strange views about class of people. One senior Indian guy in one of the QP companies here told me one day that he does not go to a certain spot because low class labors frequent that place. And more than 50% of these "low class labors are hard working, honest and simple Indians". I answered him that I also belong to the same class and he should stop being seen with me.
Of course all of us are not like that and I also met a lot of Indians who feels the same way as I do. But unless we are not able to stop these and so many incidents happening in India ( like villagers of "low caste" stopped from collecting water from public water sources, violence over inter caste marriages, harassments of North Indian in Maharastra, South Indians addressed as MADRASI and North Indians as BIHARI And so on and so on), we are all responsible.
Let us not be hypocrites and admit what is true. Ambedkar has done more harm than good by introducing benefits for (so called) lower classes, It has increased the divide.
you got the nodding head treatment too... LOL
we usually dish that out when we are indulging the somewhat... less intellectually gifted... :-)
thats why they keep noding to someone else they talk...j3375 keep talking d**khead...
for some reason India is portrayed as a land of mystique, elephants and snake charmers in the West...
I know this for a fact cos when we had Western students come on exchange... one of the things many of them were surprised about is that none of the students had turbans on their head!!
Slumdog millionaire played on this unfair and skewed portrayal in my opinion and the Western audiences lapped it up...
Look the word up first before entering into this subject, of course all the world will divide up on level of positions. you cant eat and sllep with the same staff you order to do jobs. wake uo
Power to the non believers, it’s a great feeling to have and hold.
its there in the us aganist blacks, its there in europe aganist immigrants , its there in middle east aganist asians, its there every where aganist arabs except in asia , so the thread is just a bashing one , the moment you think some nationality or caste or religion is inferior to you its recism . so hindus are reacist aganist muslims and christians and muslims aganist hindus and christians and christians aganist hindus and muslims , this will keep happening , no one can stop it,
so first of all you dont be a racist by pointing faults of indians , try to look at them as your equals with some problem like your own country ,
Caste issue is not the same as racism
India is a country of various religions, languages, food habits and culture.
Countries having common culture, language.. etc.. it is very easy to control the differences.
Still in India with rapid urbanization and large scale migration, the ensuing crowded living arrangements and public transport, and the broad-based mix of workplace colleagues, there has been a significant change in social attitudes, at least in the larger towns and certainly in the metros. Associations of occupations with caste have also been changing, especially as new occupations are developing.
PM,it's commendable that you want to learn about cultures different from your own & most people from most cultures(there are always exceptions) would be glad to explain it to/elaborate on it for you,but for that,you must first go into it with an open mind,not some pre-conceived notions,now i don't know weather you have those notions or not but based purely on your replies to this post,it seems that way & hence the hostile reactions you've been receiving...change the tone of your queries & see the difference...& btw,i second what j3375 said,of course,it might be difficult as an American for you to admit it,but that doesn't change the fact that common Indians know A LOT more about the USA than the common American knows about India/Indians...we're not talking of a select few individuals of either country who might have travelled in extensively,lived in for a substantial period,or read about/studied about extensively the other's country/it's people...we're talking about the common man on the street...
Where is Ashwind?????????
.....
Yes You are CORRECT,there are many racism in india still.there is caste basis entry to temple and some areas too.some people cant eat if the food prepared by other religion/caste.then there is no chance to talk about discrimination or racism for indian in australia or some where,be good then ..................
Just like your Yankee buddies, see you guys love the "pop-culture" quote too. I haven't seen anyone as obsessed with cinema as the Indians, except Americans :D
Oh well this was about the caste system...that stuff's pretty old if I'm correct, and old habits are hard to change, in due time however...I don't see it as a glaring problem, well nowhere near as bad as defense spending in your region. That's something that should be rectified immediately, I believe, or I hope, there's finally a critical mass of people of good will on both sides to silence the extremists and their interests. I could however be wrong, be terribly mistaken. Let's not forget who's at the top of Pakistani society. That's gonna take a few centuries to reverse, but they've already taken steps in the right direction, now if only the people and their neighbours gave them the due support...
Akshay Kumar dialogue in Namaste London
Akshay Kumar dialogue in Namaste London when he is talking to the British man at the party and he talks about India's achievements
Mr PringIe, he'd Iike to teII you
something about India...
When we greet one another,
we foId our hands in namastey...
because we beIieve...
that God resides in the heart
of every human being.
We come from a nation where we aIIow
a Iady of CathoIic origin...
to step aside for a Sikh
to be sworn in as Prime Minister...
to a MusIim President to govern
a nation of over 80 percent Hindus.
It may aIso interest you
to know that...
many of the origins to your words
come from Sanskrit.
For exampIe,
maatr becomes mother...
bhratr becomes brother,
giamiti becomes geometry
trikonniti becomes trigonometry.
We have 5600 newspapers...
magazines in over twenty-one
different Ianguages...
with a combined readership
of over 120 miIIion.
We have reached the moon and back,
but yet...
you people still feel that we've onIy
reached as far as the Indian rope trick
We are the third largest pool in the word
of doctors, engineers
and scientists.
Maybe your grandfather
didn't teII you that...
we have the third Iargest army
in the worId.
And even then, I foId my hands
in humiIity before you...
because we don't beIieve we are
above or beneath any individuaI.
And...
namastey. :)
Namastey London was released in 2007
Obama was sworn in 2008/09...
i agree the christian/sikh/muslim/hindu thing is not original...
if that makes me a copy cat... yeah okay...
I don't think Indians need to be taught how to fight racism by Americans...
your affirmtive action that you woke up to in the 1960s... we had it back in 1947
TODAY we have a 'Catholic' Lady who stepped aside for a 'Sikh' to be sworn in as Prime Minister by a 'Muslim' President to rule over a country that is 82% 'Hindu'
Enough of your condescending tone
Casteism and Racism are two different things... don't try to shove racism down our throats...
I remember all the hue and cry when Obama became President... ooh Black American man ooh ooh ooh...
We had a so called 'lower caste' Hindu President... back in 1997... did you see Indians making a hue and cry?
I am not saying that casteism does not exist... the fact is that it does in remote areas but the hangover is nothing compared to the racism that is prevalent in the US...
Our jails are not filled with a majority of people from one caste
A particularly high ratio of one caste does not drop out of school
A particularly high ratio of one caste is not denied access to professional growth
So... dish your patronizing BS some place else...
ISN'T THIS COPIED FROM A BOLLYWOOD MOVIE??? NAMSTEY LONDON TO BE PRECISE!!!
what the mind wants it to see sometimes... :-p
you should consider India... it is a lot better than South America... I think Kerala would suit you fantastically...
the first six months would be harsh and break you down
and then you will be blissful and happy...
I did misunderstand what you wrote but when you reworded it was clear. Funny how that works, huh? :-)
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
Everything I have asked here has been in good faith but you choose to treat it like it's some closed society that can't be bothered with explaining and educating. How sad for you that your mind is so closed. I, on the other hand have learned a lot here; even from verm :-)
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
Verisi, it's futile to explain all these to PM, and it hardly matters what she thinks about India. If she likes to think India is a country of snake charmers, witchcraft and untouchability, Let it be so!
May be she will never visit India. And what she feels won't change a thing about our country.
Now I feel, given her American upbringing she can hardly comprehend Indian society. So all your lectures are going invain.
If somebody is so eager to know about India, let him/her visit India.
What I said was meant to be taken as...
'Casteism ceases to exist among Muslims'
but you perceive it as Muslims are of a lower caste...
Read the sentence yourself again and ask yourself why you perceived it in the negative sense...
You may be preoccupied with these practices because you started going down that road... what 40 years ago?
Firstly, we started empowering dalits in the 1800s (yeah 200 years back)... and you could even say it started much much earlier
And even when we did start out... the situation at the time was not as regressive as not allowing a certain sect of people to eat at restaurants or demarcating their seats on public buses with a sign board... it was never on your face... it was unspoken and therefore easier to overcome... when the leaders of the independence decide that they wanted to be done with it... there was no need for violent protests or fiery speeches... everyone accepted it then and there, everyone KNEW it was wrong, they did not have to be made aware of it...
Anyway, today our focus is on empowering these people and bringing them to the mainstream to make up for lost time. We are more bothered with the traces of any hangoever left on our minds
and how it manifests itself in the society
Frankly, me and all my friends learnt about the negative aspects of casteism from textbooks... not from real life...
Casteism is not ALL bad... its only when you look at one caste relative to the other... low caste and high caste that problems persist. Quiet frankly... most castes consider themselves to be superior to all the other... that's just typical human herd mentality...
The crime ratio among a certain caste is no different from that of another
our jails are not filled with a certain caste over the other
Once a family from a certain caste has been educated and is brought over the poverty line, they are not subjected to invisible forces that drive them downwards...
Some of this might be because of our ingrained respect of humanity... but also because in today's cosmopolitan society, no one can sort out your caste before each interaction and no one is interested to either... its not as obvious as the color of your skin...
No one is more Indian than anyone else, everyone's been around for millenniums... each one is as much a part of the fabric as the other
Mostly, people are blissfully unaware and can't care less...
This is especially so in urban areas cos its a cultural potpourri and people just don't have the time... but in rural areas it may be prevalent simply cos they are from a different time and age and everyone knows everyone else... and there are personal grudges and politics and competition... and they are just remnants of a practice that is on its deathbed...
and moreover Pm..nobody here is trying to give the USA a bad name(i think u feel its being attacked here.)..Its a great country..i love the values it stands for..cant deny that the west is based on good governance and fairness for its citizens..Its the foreign policy most people dont like,esp after Bush&co really messed things up....
i dont think i'd b surprised bout how little americans know bout India..
I'll leave it at that.
Gotta run but enjoy your afternoon. :-)
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
Am I right?
Please let's not lower ourselves to a "my country is better than yours" argument. :-)
Have to go and meet friends but will catch up with this thread later.
Take care!
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
PM,u'd be surprised at how much many Indians know bout the usa,but not viceversa. .im not talking bout racism in the usa today,but when it was an openly segregated society..was just comparing those days with what u feel exists in India today....Im getting that drained out feeling..lol..
We know that PM. But 50 years back it wasn't the same.
But if you want to learn about racism in the US, just ask. Believe me, no one can go and have someone thrown out of a restaurant because of race! :-)
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
Pm..another thing that u need to know is that its not really easy for people to know who actually follows the caste system to degrade somebody else,unless they do it openly..and as you have seen those cases more often than not get reported(in the media,etc)..bcos unlike how racism was practiced in the USA,nothing is really out in the open..its not like somebody who goes to eat in a restaurant can demand that a certain person who he considers lower than him by caste be thrown out or not allowed to enter there..Its true that there are some rural ares where the rules are still from another age,but in towns,villages ,cities everybody is more involved in their work/life and not on the look out for somebody who's practicisng casteism..
or Americans. :-)
Again I offer if you want to learn about racism in the US, talk to some Americans who will tell you the truth :-)
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
A
Racism is not an Indian thought...it is the hatred of the white man for anything that he cannot understand, ….dislike for ethnic and Asian-African cultures.For nearly 500-600 years he dominated the so-called lesser men…. the Africans especially who were made slaves in their fields and lived such low, bestial lives. Today they believe they have eradicated racism but it continues in the minds of many.
In India…..caste belief is different. Today people primarily use it to marry their children within their own communities. Discriminating people by telling them not to visit temples or use village wells can be punishable legally.Nowadays nobody ask a persons caste other than for marriage…. As each caste is nothing but a group of people, they take political advantage of it and fight to protect their community rights. So the govt thrives by protecting their caste interests because every commnity is a collective chunk of votes.
Its really disgusting to know that FEW educated morons act so stupid…
It is just one of your few attacks on the US. If you would like to sit down with me and my family (who ARE black, btw) we can tell you how it REALLY is -- instead of what you want to hear! :-D
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
PM being perceived as lower caste do not mean lower caste. Perception is not always equal to fact.
Do you know most illiterate Indians perceive the earth as flat.
But I get your point: reality vs. perception. Some would say that perception creates reality :-P
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
It reminds me a little of the way sometimes our rural governments act more autonomously than the urban or suburban ones. Sometimes so much so that the Federal government has to step in -- lol
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
to go to the masjid for jumaa.
Thanks for reigning in your animosity slightly :-)
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
"even though Islam does not have castes... many Muslims and Christians were converts from some of the lower castes and they used to be perceived as lower caste... i.e. if the problem did persist today, being a Muslim would have made me one of the 'lower caste'... Do you see me complaining?
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
see PM... this is the problem with your attitude... you want to see problems where they don't exist...
where did I say Muslims are of a lower caste?
Yes PM, thats how it is. But in India laws regarding these issues are handed down by the central Government and each state has to follow.
The powers of the Provincial Government is limited to administration of the state only.
I don't discuss black racism and neither am I interested to discuss it... you brought it up...
verm? That isn't consistent with everything I have read. My understanding is that a lot of the lower caste Indians converted to Islam but not all. I know many Indians have been Muslim for generations (since the mughals) and they were not all low castes.
And I am still curious about your answer to why you feel it is okay for you to discuss American racism but not for me to discuss Indian caste-ism.... ?
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
handled in the US. The government passed laws and enforces them to prevent people from discriminating based on race. People may still have prejudices, but they can't act on them in any way affecting employment, housing, education, etc. Is that what you mean?
Does the Federal government enforce laws in all the states or is it up to the states to enforce them?
BTW, what do you think this news item about the dining halls in the article implies. Is it just because of dietary differences? And if so, I wonder if these dalit doctors ever tried to eat in one of the other messes....
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
PM you need to sit down for coffee with an Indian who says it as it is... rather than tells you what you want to hear...
And when the unification of the mess will be done ( I hope it will be done soon), that shall be a major step towards the well being/development of the country. On the contrary by forcing the issue the minds of people will not change. That will be superficial development.
stupid question PM
Majority of people want to be millionaires...
Why aren't they millionaires?...
Its because human society is not perfect
This is a practice in certain POCKETS of the country...
where development that other areas have seen hasn't yet reached...
and FYI... even though Islam does not have castes... many Muslims and Christians were converts from some of the lower castes and they used to be perceived as lower caste...
i.e. if the problem did persist today, being a Muslim would have made me one of the 'lower caste'... Do you see me complaining?
It was accidentally when I was 19 and I met a Hindu with the same family name as mine(and he was from the same area) that I figured out our 'ancestry'... otherwise we we still don't know how many generations before we had converted to Islam and neither are we interested to know bcos we don't care... most Muslims today do not know which castes they converted from... do you think in a caste sensitive society, people would be so unaware of their 'caste' backgrounds?
PM, that is where the beauty of my country lies. The people have full freedom of expression and speech. We have a federal government and it makes the rulings about the casteism etc. But what verisi says is very correct the Casteism prevalent in some places are only for the sake of convenience and not to opress some group.
In India a group of people might think they are superior than others and they can propagate this feeling to it's fellow members. But they can't do it in Government organizations or use the Government facilities to propagate such thoughts. The Government respects the individual and his thoughts. And there is very less Moral Policing being done.
If you notice there is no segregation of caste in the mess. But there are seperate mess facilities for different castes, which is the choice of the populace in that place. The Government cannot intervene there. You know we are a real democracy! So the unification of mess, if it is to be done shall be proposed by the members and not enforced by the Government.
in proportion to the magnitude of its impact on YOU (or the individual speaking about it). I rather doubt you are dalit, verm, and thus I doubt you see it as a problem at all.
BTW, racism is still a problem in some places in the US, although I don't think you can identify city dwellers as being particularly vulnerable. It's more prevalent in areas that are economically depressed (ie., sometimes cities, sometimes rural). You don't live there and really don't seem to know much. If you want to truly learn why don't you ask my Black family members and they can teach you the truth :-)
BTW, why do you think you have the right to speak about American racism but deny me the right to discuss Indian caste-ism?
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
From what I've been able to "google", the government has been working actively to do away with casteism. However, it seems it is still prevailant , especially in rural areas.
http://dalitssouthasia.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=5:caste-based-discrimination-still-prevalent-in-india-says-ilo-report&catid=25:articles&Itemid=2
Help me understand. Don't you have a Federal government that makes the laws about caste-ism and insures they are enforced? Or is it up to the individual states and you are saying the states where it still exists don't want to eradicate it?
For once instead of looking for ways to attack me, just answer the question honestly to educate me.
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
But I didn't expect that there are certain selections of meals that were meant to a certain type of Indians.
No wonder some Indians are not used to eating biriyani while plenty of them eat the fish-and-rice-and-spices meal.
Does it mean that biriyani is specially cooked for a 'higher degree' types of people in India?
"Everything in this book may be wrong." Illusions: The Adventures of The Reluctant Messiah by Richard Bach
PM said
"Caste-ism seems to be unique to the sub-continent; but I guess enough are happy with the status quo ... "
PM said
"it seems like enough Indians think it is okay; thus, it still exists."
In both these statements above you imply that a MAJORITY of Indians want casteism to stay… NOT TRUE
PM said
"Within a few generations the attitude that supports caste-ism will change insha'Allah. (A few generations"
PM said
"But 25-40 years or so is necessary, and perhaps even the optimal period."
(by saying that it would take long to overcome it, you have magnified the scale of the problem)
PM said
"We put "affirmative action" in place in the 1960s. We are seeing the positive results in the past 10-15 years. Give it time."
Here you have likened the situation of the lower castes to that of racist abused minorities in US. Racism occurs ACROSS the US back in the 60s and it continues today. Casteism is well on its way out… can the US claim that racism is not prevalent in it cities? Well Indians have stake on that claim with regards to casteism...
PM said
"and yet some Indians deny it exists at all. I don't think problems will ever be resolved until they are admitted and the majority wants to do something about them."
Again... false... no Indian on this thread has said that the problem does not exist and no Indian has expressed unwillingness to resolve the issue. The argument has not been on whether it exists or not, but regarding its magnitude and its implications on society... If we are to be a developed nation by 2020, we need to put things in perspective... and we don't need people from outside blowing our problems out of proportion to highlight our backwardness when it does not exist...
did by mistake please let me know so I can correct myself). All I have said is that it seems the evidence suggests it still exists in India -- at least SOMEWHERE in India (which I recognize as a HUGE, diverse country) -- and yet some Indians deny it exists at all. I don't think problems will ever be resolved until they are admitted and the majority wants to do something about them. But that's just my opinion and everyone is free to take it or leave it. ;-)
Don't let verm's personal obsession with me color the way you read what I write, please. :-)
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
so... shit happens within the family.... all for the good.
Anyway,back on topic, Whoever said earlier the Indians are not racist has never been to a India v Packistan Cricket match!! LOL
lol..britexpat..
See again, you refuse to believe the facts :O)
drac,i cant believe the shithead hamd93 is Indian..
pm..dont stop participating,just read whats written by us too..seems ur indian friends r telling u only what u want to hear..:-)..thing is it upsets us as we're telling our side bout the situation there,but u seem to have ur mind made up already..despite so many saying we dont actually follow the caste system..U seem to firmly believe that actually ALL Indians dont care bout the evil of the system and are happy being casteist.(maybe the prejudiced notion you have of some Indians extends in your remarks to all of us..if i dont feel i'm one of them i feel like letting you know..thats all).Nobody asked you not to participate..
just sometimes ur remarks just time consuming to reply to/try and correct..There i'm drained already,dear..:-)
if you go thru posts, sandeep/some and the rest/some of us have faced different situations growing up though we are all roughly of the same generation..doesnt mean that everything is uniform all over India..different places,different mindsets,different views..again varying in people even from the same regions(the mindset)..khallas..
Veris..i think ur the reason for this(PM refusing to change her mind)..hahaha..verm..lol..just kidding..we had some history too if you remember..dont bite my head off..
wonder how this guy ashwin has the energy to type so much in his posts..
DA exactly
on QL these days. its a whole mess now.
you really dont know who is who.
Jarmo Holopainen
.
who is Hameed? Stupid sh*&%$
lol happygolucky :)
" when someone annoys you it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, BUT, it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and slap that @&%$%^$$#&!!!!"
:-)
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
Sandeep... I wish to use my 4 muscles to welcome Hameed....
________________________________________
One life to live, live it to the fullest.
Hameed is back guys, welcome him.
" when someone annoys you it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, BUT, it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and slap that @&%$%^$$#&!!!!"
...complaining devine...;)
Complaining is our birth right and we shall have it!
Source:
- A study Conducted by FriedUnicorn - Vol I (September,1999)
what I read or hear in conversations with my Indian friends. I am always interested in learning; but it seems my interest upsets so many of you guys that I guess you would prefer I not post in "your threads". :-)
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
It was actually during the same protests in Rajasthan I mentioned earlier. Good thing my distributor was a well known guy in the area and I was allowed to leave from there.
" when someone annoys you it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, BUT, it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and slap that @&%$%^$$#&!!!!"
is casteism...
seemed casteism to me verisimilitude when i was allowed to board a bus in Kota after my distributor had to vouch for me that I am a jat( a caste) and not a meena( A caste in rajasthan)
Then again you are always right I guess.
" when someone annoys you it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, BUT, it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and slap that @&%$%^$$#&!!!!"
that is not casteism... that is communalism...
thalib I dont care if people from outside India have some false notion about our country. I dont need any certificate from anybody to prove the greatness of my country.
gadarene I accept in urban india we never cared about someone's castes. But majority of India is still living in villages. Times may have changed but I remember when I was working in rajasthan, the caste based Gujjar protest which broke out in 2007, which isn't that far back. I dont want to get into the details of the protest but there was widespread violence among two different castes, not just in villages but in jaipur and other cities of rajasthan too. I personally remember in 2006 when lots of hospitals in Delhi and chandigarh came to a standstill because doctors were protesting against reservation. I remember in early 2000s when all the government employees in Chandigarh ( Haryana & Punjab combined) including my parents went on strike protesting against reservation. Everyone came to know everyone's castes within hours. SC & BC families used to look at us with hatred in their eyes as if we want to steal their jobs from them which they so "richfully" deserved. Chandigarh is as urban as urban India can get mind you. these are just my personal experiences, must be happening at so many other places.
so to think the problem is over and done with will be naive.
" when someone annoys you it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, BUT, it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and slap that @&%$%^$$#&!!!!"
a dose of reality...most people in urban India especially the current generation don't give a rat's behind about what caste one belongs to...they're too busy trying to make the best of life's opportunities,weather it's career growth or making their first million,or travelling around the world or whatever it is that a lot of their parents didn't have the opportunity to do...when i was in dental school & subsequently, i had friends from every possible caste & religion,i don't even know/remember what caste they belong to because as versi rightly pointed out,that wasn't a topic of discussion,'cos it didn't matter...we were a group of friends with common interests & got on like a house on fire...they're in different parts of the world,some back home in India,we catch up whenever we can & it's great...so PM with all due respect,you don't have a clue about India or Indians luv so save the comparison with the US because they're like chalk & cheese...
you are arguing with some retards who dont even know where india is... :-)let alone talk about Indians and their culture...
leave the dogs to bark,, they will just run away when nobody barks back.!!
Dude reservation was introduced to uplift the so called SCs & BCs by Dr. B. R. Ambedkar who were denied equal opportunities because of their lower cates. Casteism gave rise to reservation. I cant believe such a worldly wise person like you saying they are not interlinked.. I am outta here. Enjoy your weekend.
" when someone annoys you it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, BUT, it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and slap that @&%$%^$$#&!!!!"
its a totally different issue from casteism...
Reservation is based on castes.
Scheduled castes - xx %
Backward castes - xx %
Other backward castes - xx %
" when someone annoys you it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, BUT, it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and slap that @&%$%^$$#&!!!!"
why are you mixing these two issues?
But verisimilitude the bigger problem is now reservation and how it can be properly implemented. Right now many deserving candidates dont get through in entrance exams. creates frustration among youth when you see someone not even half as good as you getting through and you missing out.
" when someone annoys you it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, BUT, it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and slap that @&%$%^$$#&!!!!"
As I said before versimilitude good that you weren't exposed to it. It shows that it is not very widespread.
It wasn't actually considered a problem where I lived too, it was just a way of life. Like these doctors said, we just do what our seniors were doing and their seniors before them.
As for Abdul sir's speech, I dont want to discuss it here. too many idiots jumping around on this thread.
" when someone annoys you it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, BUT, it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and slap that @&%$%^$$#&!!!!"
I have had the privilege of living with Indians from the length and breadth of the country during my college education
and having intellectual discussions about the state of the country for a solid six years with the entire diaspora
Rarely did our discussions turn to the casteism issue...
inspite of the media portrayal of national educational institutes being caste sensitive...
We may be guilty of corruption, dirty politics, organized crime, red tape, bureaucracy, politically motivated communism even... true... but racism... I don't agree...
and casteism... not among the literate and urban areas... I am not saying casteism does not exist in the country... it does... but not to the degree that generally people perceive it to be... mostly people just don't understand casteism and equate it to some kind of racism... I think casteism is bad... but is it as prevalent a problem as it is globally perceived to be... I don't think so...
I don't know if you read Abdul Kalam's speech... about his vision of India being a developed country by 2020... we are almost there... by God's grace in our lifetime... but to get there... we need to think as a developed country.
No way that they practice this in my country. Infact they are a budding problem from an immigrant citizens to wrestlers for more political voices.
like much of everything else that you see happening in India...
The so called 'kshatriya, brahmin and harijan' messes... are obviously being run by people from those respective castes...
Now by labelling these messes as such, they have just worked out a neat system by which they needn't compete with each other... and still have a loyal customer base...
i.e. they've worked the system to a neat little monopoly...
So even if the quality declines... the doctors don't have a REAL choice...
If you are a kshatriya, you don't want to go to the Harijan mess or vice versa... that would mean you are letting down the people of your own caste... so you just sit down and eat what is dished out to you quietly... and the mess organizers get to make a good margin... simple economics
GROW UP guys!!! saw 80+ post after mine, thought you guys where having a good discussion. cheap personal attacks and bad languages! Asthahfirullah!
are the mods really goin to tolerate more of this morons shit?..hameed93,howz things dude..hahhaa..hairy whatever n a shaved backside ..hmmmm..i knew u liked the beast there..
Kwan, stop telling exaggerated lies.If you want sympathy of a non-Indian woman, find out some other way of impressing her.............period......you know, I know and they know that racism never existed and doesn't exist in India, however, opportunism does.....Can anybody give 100,000 QR to Kwan for his lies or maybe a US visa.
delhi boy,ignore hameed1993..he's just pissed that he cant buy a date with the value of the rupee in his country..tsk tsk.dont be jealous..120@whtever and matilda/brutihaldi ..u ppl are the ones who get hiding(both sexes)everytime ur pathan friends come calling..real courage there..
hameed..i got the message where said u wnted to f*** my uncle(mama..hahaha..)like i told you go ahead i dont like him either..
and btw like in my reply to ur threat,im busy(wow) again,so dont disturb..
yes j3375 I think that is the case.. The problem is there in places like Haryana, bihar, UP where feudal mindset is there. The problem is nowhere close to what the blacks faced in USA and other parts of the world though. I have seen casteism going down in recent years and hopefully will disappear altogether.
" Dont take life too seriously, you will never get out alive!!!"
sandeep we all know casteism exists..but u have faced it more bcos of the place u grew up in(haryana)..where the mindset still exists..its not the same in other places..
like i mentioned before,this gives people like PM the idea(or actually strenghtens hteir prejudices)against Indians..the problem up north,esp haryana is that power(political) is always been equated with caste/landowning class..this feudal mindset it seems even the young generation just accepts..
I am trying to be honest but perhaps it would be better not to be :-)
What I meant was that if the majority view it as negative it will change. Since it hasn't yet, I assume that enough people still accept it.
Now if you would prefer that I not speak my mind, that is another issue :-)
Gotta go prepare for prayer and iftar, See you later!
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
PM..most Indian dont think casteism its okay..what do you want us to do..as you can see by this post,its a practise that exists in the minds of certain people..if the doctor is that way,doesnt mean his uncle or even cousin(im just givin an example) do the same..ultimately its about how society shapes each persons view towards life..like i mentioned earlier too in a similar thread,its even taught as an evil in the schools..
so its not like in India everybody is suffering under the caste system/or nobodys doing their best to irradicate it...just like in the usa there are/always will be people who believe in white supremacy and those whooppose such idealogy
I'm begening to think your prejudices are doin the talking..just being frank..
veris If you weren't exposed to casteism then good for you but it does exist. I have seen it plenty of times in my life. Infact I have been guilty of it myself during my teenage years when we mistakenly believed some people to be below us. I have grown up, hope the others do too. We have to accept there is a problem, only then we can get rid of it. Avoiding the issue doesn't help.
" Dont take life too seriously, you will never get out alive!!!"
that's like walking in to a car showroom and saying,"All cars are the same"
Four tyres, one gear and a steering :-p
they had a system which was started in 1960
It might have started that way...
today... its just different messes but anyone can eat wherever they want to...
Did you also notice that there are no 'Muslim' or 'Christian' messes... so are the Muslims and Christians expected to starve...
What about Hindus who are not Thakur, Brahmin or Harijan?
Its obvious that people who are not necessarily from a particular sect are still allowed to eat in those messes
i.e. a nonThakur would be allowed to eat in the Thakur mess
when you read these kind of articles... don't just swallow it... ruminate a bit and apply your intelligence...
I knew the reporter was bogus the minute I read all the meals are the same... dal, rice and sabji... yeah sure... dal, rice and sabji... if that makes all the messes the same... then all the hotels in North India are also the same... they all serve dal, rice and sabji for lunch!
they have separate rooms to eat as they can't use the other's room..
whereas in NIT, the segregation is based on the food, i.e. veg/non-veg/..
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
i try but its for the benefits of other Qlers...
You too are an islander... LOL
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
we do like to indulge idiots by nodding our heads :-)
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
still there?
I don't want to take all the credit... have to give some of it to PM
You know how when a strong team looks very very strong when it plays against a really weak opponent... I think I benefit from that a lot...
a QLER have a bad mouth language...
before we cast the first stone in anger we must first put ourselves in their shoes.
i remember my very first meeting with an indian. every time i spoke he was always shaking his head ferociously. the questions were open-ended and i thought you pompous prick, why are you not agreeing with anything i'm saying.
i took a step back and finally remembered my bobble head in the car. my bobble head is cool, no matter what music i play he is always smiling and dancing. so basically my new indian friend was doing exactly the same.
Maybe you can look it up :-P
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
no im not..but delhi boy does...
I've been reading for a while and thoroughly enjoying Versi's comments, i've never seen Versi use bad language ever...unless off course having rasor sharp wit and stating impermeable points is considered offensive!
I guess those QLers can't spell either :-D
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
Does it say that they CANNOT eat in each others dining room if they wanted to?
bakla means gay....
dont take this as a personal question but do u paint the town pink?...hhmmm...
Let It Be.....
'verm' is not short for VERMin which you insisted on calling me earlier
'verm' is short for verisimilitude?
Yeah sure...
I hope you remember how you started calling me vermin and I reciprocated by calling you PMS...
After a while even I found the name calling beneath me and we had an agreement that we stop calling each other these silly names... I have kept up my part of the deal...
I have never called you PMS since then
there is such a thing known as honor... but then again... how would you know... silly me... expecting you to have honor... ROFL!!
they have to eat in separate rooms and food is cooked in separate kitchens! thats the story..isn't it?
calm down... dont take everything in this world seriously... u should learn how to laugh on ur enemies.... dont u know that the more u fight back the more u will be hated or should i say ppl will annoy u more...
Let It Be.....
thats how people take out their real life frustrations PM
" Dont take life too seriously, you will never get out alive!!!"
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
after you were banned. I told you I can't spell well :-D
I think it is cursing to use any obscene or profane words. And the word you used falls in that category. But keep twisting; it's fun to see you like this :-)))
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
now you have two==bruhildita and hameed..how its gonna be?
Does that make mobiles haram... ?
BS was not cursing bcos it was not directed at you...
Cursing is when you call someone a bad word...
like 'verm' as short for 'vermin'... that is haram...
you need to learn more about your religion PM
seems you haven't spend as much time learning Islam as you did for preaching it...
20 bucks for hameed...anyone?
they will never fight back.... believe me... they will just shake their head till they get dizy.....:)
Let It Be.....
i not a real girl im a THANK U doctor in thailand..... be violent and personal to me... anyways u dont know who really i am... but but but maybe maybe maybe.... u already cross my path...hmmmmmm....
Let It Be.....
Delhi Boy ignore stupid comments.
" Dont take life too seriously, you will never get out alive!!!"
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
ohhh... cho chweet... so proud of you dear... little baby get golden star... happy?
By verisimilitude at 2009-08-27
except you, it appears. Think of what BS stands for and tell me if you would say that in the masjid. Why don't you write one of the scholars and ask.
And no, I would never make a fatwa; just a comment when I see something that is wrong. I'm offering guidance... isn't that what you like to do? lol
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
really no biro...uy!inaaway ka ni delhi boy...bakla siguro etong pana na yan?
after ramadan i will post my real pic.....
Let It Be.....
shes a gurl!dont be personal...thats why hameed hates you...
oh come on......yes for sure that the girls will turn to u with knife, machine gun, riffles...etc....
violent reaction is not allowed...lol
Let It Be.....
me also i dont want to expose my real pix here in forum.coz for sure a lot of gurls here turn on to me...ohhh!life...
So now you've started making fatwas PM?
left corner right corner
_hameed_ _delhi boy_
--------------------------------
= ????
oh my gosh...maybe after ramadan all the indians will be going back to india and hide.... hhmmmm....
Let It Be.....
you remind my grandmother wayback home...
It's Ramadan. You should be more careful to guard your tongue. See, even I did not curse back at him when he cursed me :-)
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
its ramadan...just finish ramadan and continue your anger with indians...
using the term "BS" in Ramadan? haram.....
And btw, was just sharing how it worked in my country with Sandeep -- not you who are too arrogant to think there is anything you can learn from someone else.
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
dont be tooooooooooooooooo mean to indians....
Let It Be.....
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
why somebody killing each other here?...
Does it say in the NDTV article that one caste is not allowed to eat from a mess for another caste?
I don't think Indians need to be taught how to fight racism by Americans...
your affirmtive action that you woke up to in the 1960s... we had it back in 1947
TODAY we have a 'Catholic' Lady who stepped aside for a 'Sikh' to be sworn in as Prime Minister by a 'Muslim' President to rule over a country that is 82% 'Hindu'
Enough of your condescending tone
Casteism and Racism are two different things... don't try to shove racism down our throats...
I remember all the hue and cry when Obama became President... ooh Black American man ooh ooh ooh...
We had a so called 'lower caste' Hindu President... back in 1997... did you see Indians making a hue and cry?
I am not saying that casteism does not exist... the fact is that it does in remote areas but the hangover is nothing compared to the racism that is prevalent in the US...
Our jails are not filled with a majority of people from one caste
A particularly high ratio of one caste does not drop out of school
A particularly high ratio of one caste is not denied access to professional growth
So... dish your patronizing BS some place else...
in NIT you can walk into any mess you want. The selection of mess is your choice. so can't compare it with this news ...
all indian sem sem...
If you can actually read you will see I said racism exists everywhere.
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
I studied in a college... I don't mind stating it... REC Calicut aka NIT Calicut... a reputed national level college for my graduation
We had fove messes there... they were A, B, C, F and E...
The messes had different types of food and catered a to different audience...
A mess was for first years who were hesitant to mix with anyone else cos of the ragging
F mess was the hardcore mess cos it had beef and nonveg... it attracted the Muslims, Christian and the South Indian Hindu crowd
B mess had nonvegetarian but no beef and it attracted the nonvegetarian North Indian Hindus...
C mess was pure vegetarian and naturally was piled with Brahmins who were very particular about the preparation of their food... no nonveg in the vicinity
E mess was set up during Ramadhan only with Sohour and Iftar... specifically for Muslims
Now would you call this setup casteism driven or racist?
The article says the mess was the same... daal, rice, sabji... daal, rice and sabji are common to almost any meal... its the other stuff that goes along with it that makes the difference
I know PM is anxious to label Indians as racists but the segregation by caste is more a matter of convenience because the food habits of castes can vary substantially...
We put "affirmative action" in place in the 1960s. We are seeing the positive results in the past 10-15 years. Give it time.
I realize it is never easy being the one who is discriminated against -- especially perhaps if it seems like reverse-discrimination. But I do think there is something to be said for the greater good and affirmative action helped the US. The trick is to not have it last forever because then it simply becomes another form oppression. But 25-40 years or so is necessary, and perhaps even the optimal period.
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
Nope PM, the system has been in place for nearly 20 years now. All it has done is stop majority of lower caste students from taking their studies seriously. They know they will get into good colleges anyway because of the reservations for them.
" Dont take life too seriously, you will never get out alive!!!"
both casteism and racism should be thrown out of the society. But with even highly educated people like doctors agree to go along how will the society as a whole change?
and ultimately it seems like enough Indians think it is okay; thus, it still exists.
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
some have commented that this is not racism but casteism! so is that okay? How can we agree to casteism but not racism?
usually produce some change in the long term, especially of they are backed by anti-discrimination laws that are enforced properly. Within a few generations the attitude that supports caste-ism will change insha'Allah.
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
Sandeep...I dont think North Indians think South Indians are lower in stature to them... but this may hold true to some extent when talking about looks and more specifically complexion..
anyways as regards the topic...as fireheartin said though casteism does exist no one seems to be treated differently based on race...
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One life to live, live it to the fullest.
Yes there is a common exam but out of lets say 100 seats available, nearly 50 have to be filled by schedule castes, backward castes, other backward castes etc. For the other 50 anyone can apply.. I studied in an MBA college where I needed a 99 percentile score to get in and among my classmates were students with as low as 12 % score because they were from reserved category. Thats the way they are trying to bring social equality but it is highly flawed approach.
" Dont take life too seriously, you will never get out alive!!!"
I dont belive there is any thing as castism when certain group of people are abused because they belong to a certain group it is racism castes tribes all refer to race so to this castism doesnot makes it less abhorable and shameful.
Individuals make society not the other way around if supossedly educated people do things like this what can you expect from the rest?
Sorry, just a clarification..
How can they become doctors if they are not qualified to do the job ?
Isn't there a common exam for all ?
yep Britexpat that may happen, but that is because due to the reservations for lower castes, many people are becoming doctors from the lower castes who are not qualified to do the job. I already said in some other thread casteism exists, even racism to some extent, where North Indians consider South Indians to be somewhat lower in stature to them. haven't been to south India but I am sure that the same situation is there with certain people considering North Indians different to them. People may deny it but thats the truth as it exists. One of the social issues that India needs to sort out.
" Dont take life too seriously, you will never get out alive!!!"
REFUSE to treat anyone from outside my caste :-P
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
So do these doctors declare their caste before treating a patient ?
Is it possible that a patient may refuse to be treated by someone from a lower caste.
and even sadder that some Indians refuse to admit that racism and caste-ism still exist in India. Racism exists everywhere.
Caste-ism seems to be unique to the sub-continent; but I guess enough are happy with the status quo ...
I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM
Yes it is casteism. But is some ways it can be called as "Racism" since we can called these indians belonged to different "tribes" whose religion, ethnicity and beliefs differs to each other. I also believe, elsewhere in the world, it is how the individual accepts the "new" culture where they were "in". If they lives and persists their own belief and the locals oppose to it...then they will cry out loud...saying that it is "racism"...
kwan,as fireheartin correctly pointed out, racism is very different from casteism...& yes fireheartin,nobody is treated any differently based on race in India despite the fact that 2 of the world's most prominent races,the aryans & the dravidians both peacefully co-exist in India...
this kind of discrimination was age old, way past the apartheid and slavery in the west.
so as the articles says, its an old tradition which was never rectified.
thats all....
racism is different from castism, am i right?
In India there are so many different community, religion nationality and i don't think anybody is treated differently based on race.
This is totally wretched and humiliating to the entire society ! Do these doctors have brains on knees? lol
Not all Indians are Racial, it must be some remote places
"The doctors say this is a tradition. "Our seniors followed it. Now we do," declares Dr. Aditya, who refuses to reveal his caste."
I pity on them.
A particular group of people sagregating themselves is not same as racism. Indians overall are very kind people and refrain themselves from abusing anybody physically or mentally. Although, they may cheat you for money. Origin of racism is from stupidities like unnecessarily being rude to people, making foolish choices in business to favour a certain community wherein the candidate is less competant, not allowing people of a certain ethnicity not to enter a market wherein he could be a potential customer. Westerners are more racist than Arabs are. The only difference is they are not as foolish. And whatever else Indians are, but they are also not fools.
posses the highest level of caste issues.