Continueing the debate and based on the vedios and previous postings by all, I have the following remarks to make:
1- I will not be able to explain everything. I will try to convince you that God exists based on some evidences which lead to such a conclusion i.e. God exists.
In my case, there are things which I don't understand in this life, but because of evidences to prove god exists, i am not affected by those matters i do not understand.
I will not use such an argument like, why does not god tell me if he did it and/or how. If god did not tell me how I was made or how the universe was made then I cannot use this as a prove of God's nonexistence. God does not have to tell us how we were made to prove he exists.
2- Those who do not believe in God are not in a better position than those who believe in God, in terms of scientific explanation. I say this because it is mentioned in the vedios that there are intermidate steps which are not known yet (based on abiogenesis and evolution theories). I believe this statement could also be made regardless of the vedio because if those who don't believe in god claim, which I believe they don't, that they know how humans, for example, were created I would ask them to produce one.
3- With reference to point number 1 above; I shall limit my discussion for now to some examples while execluding others. I will return to them however later on. an example would be humans. Gypsy asked, why do we have diseases, which is a good question i think. Let us focus on normal humans who don't have diseases at the moment. The idea here is to use complicated systems as a prove of god's existence. Ofcourse I have to convince you that those systems require intervention and I will use probability for this. Using probability I will also try to prove that those systems cannot be put together simply by fluke and that things coming together on thier own require a plan.
let us start by this:
a. How likely are you to meet a friend in a shopping centre by accident? you may say very probable.
b. How likely are you to meet two of your friends by accident? you may say probable.
c. how likely are you to meet 3 friends by accident? maybe probably.
As the number of friends you are likey to meet by accident increase, then the probability of that happening decrease.
Adey may say the 3 scenarios above are equally likely regardless of the number of friends as long as they don't require happening at the same time- as is the claim made earlier os small steps over vast amount of time. granted!
by saying this, I state that if the number of friends increase while the probability of interest is the one where all of friends need to be accidentally met at the same time, then the bigger number of friends, the less probable it is to happen.
let us carry this further into a place where things do require to happen at the same time.
If you believe evolution happens over long periods of time then I may suggest the following:
1- each creation took a long time to come into existence.
2- assuming the 30 million number is good estimate, how long did it take each.
There are two possibilities here under point 2:
a. Each animal came into existence over a period of time during which none of the other animals came into existence. in other words, one after the other. If this is the case, then how long did each animal take to come into existence when we have 30 million? if we take a figure, a realisticly long figure for this kind of operation representing number of years and multiply it with 30 million what do we get? would this number not exceed the the point where time kicked off. How like is that to happen?
b. some animals came into existence at the same time. By this I mean, some coditions had to happen over the same phase of time. Now this is where so many conditions need to happen at the same for which probablity is very low.
3- Probability of things happenign would even get lower if we attribute the natural evolution for making two sexes for the 30 million species and factor this in the probability equation.
4- Why are things in good order??
a. Sun shines at predicted places right round the year never violating its path. Moon does the same.
b. why bananas, apples, oranges taste so good and are eatable and required by humans?
c. How likely is it to have such great compatibility between some living creations, humans, animal, fruits and could that be act of nature?
5- What keeps things in balance if they are subject to random forces?
you would probably say overtime, they will go off balance. this is a fine argument. However, the probability of having so many animals and so many other creations and systems and have not YET lost balance is very very very low which basically means impossible. The world existed as it is today since a very long time.
6- among all living things, in addition to stars and food and other stuff, when did the last object/creation came into existence. How many years ago? it must be thousands if not millions according to the evolution theory. Is it possible to have so many systems at the same time for such a long time(time taken from now to the time last object/creation came into existence to be conservative) without disorder and in such a good balance?
7- Adey, I missed one of your earlier posts somehow where you ask: (so such a complex 'being' as a god had to have an even more complex/intelligent/powerful designer - yes?).
I say this is a valid point but let us focus on God's existence first, whom I claim made humans and other systems. I hope you are not saying this is an endless sequence of supreme beings so let us deny it from the beginning instead of getting tired following it all the way! (I believe this is not what you meant just to clarify)
Miss X, Thank you for the clarification.
I am back with some answers.
I have seen the 4 vedios posted by Adey in full.
Continueing the debate and based on the vedios and previous postings by all, I have the following remarks to make:
1- I will not be able to explain everything. I will try to convince you that God exists based on some evidences which lead to such a conclusion i.e. God exists.
In my case, there are things which I don't understand in this life, but because of evidences to prove god exists, i am not affected by those matters i do not understand.
I will not use such an argument like, why does not god tell me if he did it and/or how. If god did not tell me how I was made or how the universe was made then I cannot use this as a prove of God's nonexistence. God does not have to tell us how we were made to prove he exists.
2- Those who do not believe in God are not in a better position than those who believe in God, in terms of scientific explanation. I say this because it is mentioned in the vedios that there are intermidate steps which are not known yet (based on abiogenesis and evolution theories). I believe this statement could also be made regardless of the vedio because if those who don't believe in god claim, which I believe they don't, that they know how humans, for example, were created I would ask them to produce one.
3- With reference to point number 1 above; I shall limit my discussion for now to some examples while execluding others. I will return to them however later on. an example would be humans. Gypsy asked, why do we have diseases, which is a good question i think. Let us focus on normal humans who don't have diseases at the moment. The idea here is to use complicated systems as a prove of god's existence. Ofcourse I have to convince you that those systems require intervention and I will use probability for this. Using probability I will also try to prove that those systems cannot be put together simply by fluke and that things coming together on thier own require a plan.
let us start by this:
a. How likely are you to meet a friend in a shopping centre by accident? you may say very probable.
b. How likely are you to meet two of your friends by accident? you may say probable.
c. how likely are you to meet 3 friends by accident? maybe probably.
As the number of friends you are likey to meet by accident increase, then the probability of that happening decrease.
Adey may say the 3 scenarios above are equally likely regardless of the number of friends as long as they don't require happening at the same time- as is the claim made earlier os small steps over vast amount of time. granted!
by saying this, I state that if the number of friends increase while the probability of interest is the one where all of friends need to be accidentally met at the same time, then the bigger number of friends, the less probable it is to happen.
let us carry this further into a place where things do require to happen at the same time.
Let us limit the study now for animals:
estimated number of animals is 3-30 million species based on http://animals.about.com/b/2007/08/13/how-many-species-on-earth.htm
If you believe evolution happens over long periods of time then I may suggest the following:
1- each creation took a long time to come into existence.
2- assuming the 30 million number is good estimate, how long did it take each.
There are two possibilities here under point 2:
a. Each animal came into existence over a period of time during which none of the other animals came into existence. in other words, one after the other. If this is the case, then how long did each animal take to come into existence when we have 30 million? if we take a figure, a realisticly long figure for this kind of operation representing number of years and multiply it with 30 million what do we get? would this number not exceed the the point where time kicked off. How like is that to happen?
b. some animals came into existence at the same time. By this I mean, some coditions had to happen over the same phase of time. Now this is where so many conditions need to happen at the same for which probablity is very low.
3- Probability of things happenign would even get lower if we attribute the natural evolution for making two sexes for the 30 million species and factor this in the probability equation.
4- Why are things in good order??
a. Sun shines at predicted places right round the year never violating its path. Moon does the same.
b. why bananas, apples, oranges taste so good and are eatable and required by humans?
c. How likely is it to have such great compatibility between some living creations, humans, animal, fruits and could that be act of nature?
5- What keeps things in balance if they are subject to random forces?
you would probably say overtime, they will go off balance. this is a fine argument. However, the probability of having so many animals and so many other creations and systems and have not YET lost balance is very very very low which basically means impossible. The world existed as it is today since a very long time.
6- among all living things, in addition to stars and food and other stuff, when did the last object/creation came into existence. How many years ago? it must be thousands if not millions according to the evolution theory. Is it possible to have so many systems at the same time for such a long time(time taken from now to the time last object/creation came into existence to be conservative) without disorder and in such a good balance?
7- Adey, I missed one of your earlier posts somehow where you ask: (so such a complex 'being' as a god had to have an even more complex/intelligent/powerful designer - yes?).
I say this is a valid point but let us focus on God's existence first, whom I claim made humans and other systems. I hope you are not saying this is an endless sequence of supreme beings so let us deny it from the beginning instead of getting tired following it all the way! (I believe this is not what you meant just to clarify)
Think about it!