Anyone in a closet?

Think you picked a very debatable topic there sunshine. Hope you are not leaning t far out of the window. lol.

I agree totally It's just a phrase we use to save time, but inexcusable ...won't happen again.lili.

Lili said:

"You can't stereotype a community let alone a religion that spreads across the entire globe....."

...yet how many times do we hear (here) "the West" referred to as if it is one single entity?? America is very different to the UK, or Australia, or New Zealand, or Canada...

I'm not sure if, by "you," you mean me as an individual or Western society as a whole. I think the latter.

There are plenty of ethical systems that aren't explicitly based on a religion. Religion and ethics tend to be interconnected, but not always. So the U.S. is a secular state, but that doesn't mean Western society has no ethical standards!

"Ironically we show more respect to your cultures and needs here than you do!..Even that you are the once who are living with us and working in our country…

Haven’t you notice that?"

I've had to think about this for a while.

There are definitely plenty of people in the U.S. who dislike Muslims. And, according to a recent poll, nearly half of Americans say they have an unfavorable view of Islam. On the other hand, Muslims living in the U.S. have the right to wear hijab, to pray in public, to proselytize non-Muslims, and so on.

Here in Qatar, I've never had anyone harass me for being Christian. However, I don't have the right to pray in public. I can't legally proselytize (not that I would anyway). I can't even buy a copy of my Scriptures in this country.

So on the one hand, I think you're right that Qataris show an amazing amount of respect and tolerance for outsiders. (And I am often appalled by expats' disregard for Islam, by wearing inappropriate clothes etc.) But Qatar is very far from having freedom of expression and freedom of religion.

Of course it's not fair to compare worst examples; I would certainly never point to the people I consider bad Muslims as examples of Islam.

HOWEVER, every time the issue of polygyny comes up, I hear Muslims compare an idealized Muslim marriage (either monogamous or with the husband treating all his wives well) with a demonized Western marriage (everyone cheating all the time, and probably eventually divorcing and leaving the kids in a broken home). When Bilal Philips spoke at my place of employment, he said this explicitly: the difference between Muslim men and non-Muslim men is that the Muslims are honest about their infidelity to a single wife, whereas non-Muslim men all sleep around and lie about it. The non-Muslim men in the audience were, needless to say, quite offended!

If you have no fixed religion then we can't really make a comparison since all the morals..dos and don'ts will be left up to you to dec ide through observation, upbringing and trail and error.....It won't a regime louds of people go by...it'll be very personal and can't be judged on face value..lili.

Marjorie.....is it fair when talking about a society to choose it's worst examples and then say that it is representative of the society as a whole?Would it be fair to you if I made the guests on the Jerry Springer show( or Maury or Ricci lake the examples are numerous)an example of western values and how the west lived? A common mistake......Taking the worst examples of muslim behavior and branding every one else with them when there are MILLIONS of muslims around the world who are true to their faith and are trying their best to raise their children in a respectable honest way and with accordance to islamic teachings.

You can't stereotype a community let alone a religion that spreads across the entire globe.....Muslims of the middle east are different from those of Asia, the Americas, Africa, Australia and Europe(i have named continents because i obviously can't name countries).....The religion is the same but the local culture influences certain things.......Arab culture BEFORE islam had bigamy(much, much more then 4)......The tradition is carried on....Vieled women in Egypt wear different clothes then women in Qatar....The parts covered are the same (the concept is one)but it looks different.

I personally know loads and loads of practicing muslims..I have only heard/met two people who had two wives....I HAVE NEVER HEARD of any one with more than 2 wives

Alot of people love to always point out the bad...we recognise it and we admit it's bad and that it is not of islam.....that doesn't mean i'm talking about theory because as i said before i know loads of good examples.

As Aisha said....some muslims aren't abiding by the rules BUT most of them know it's wrong and will probably repent(although some are clueless and never will...but that's humanity).....In cotrast, is the west abiding by their holy books(those who have)? What 's the use of a religion if you don't go by it's rules? Are you going to stick to the rules you like and leave the ones you don't?If you are of a certain religion and don't go by the rules at least feel you are in the wrong and try to do better.

Marjorie,

Yes I agree with you that it doesn’t sound fair. The examples from other cultures are just to make it clear that these things that Islam prohibited will really destroy the formation of human societies.

Also, you cannot compare it here and there because we have kept so many morals till today..Yes, there are exceptions but in general we kept following a lotttt of teachings of Islam. For example, Muslims who are struggling with alcohols are nothing comparing with those who do not drink at all..On the other hand, in other places of the world where people drink “acceptabley� there are remarkable evidence of how it’s destroying some areas of the society and getting out of control in sooo many cases causing other kinds of addictions, crimes, car accidents.. etc.

The different is that we admit that we have people misbehaving and that they shouldn’t. Many of them stop doing these things after a while , realizing that Islam is the perfect life style (talking about Muslims)…

The most successful evidence supporting this theory is that the Islamic reality nowadays suckkkks…We are so weak and no one respect us for who we are..for what we have probably! An example of this is the reality here in QatarLiving..you guys in the west have the freedom of speech and the democracy (things we’ve lost when we didn’t follow our religion that recommend some similar politic economic..etc systems) However, Ironically we show more respect to your cultures and needs here than you do!..Even that you are the once who are living with us and working in our country…

Haven’t you notice that? It’s in your collective conscience as a socity..we just don’t worth respect…

I don’t want to be misunderstood because you are so welcome and I have so many non Muslims friends…It’s just something obvious and even my non Muslims friends agree with me on that..Sad but true!

“We are the people whom only Islam strengthen.. and once we seek strength through other “ways� We would only be weaker.

Lilipink,

First you say that what Muslims actually DO isn't Islam; to understand Islam we have to understand Islam's ideals and requirements (e.g. cheating is forbidden) regardless of whether people actually live up to them.

But then, when you compare this idealized Islam with the West, you compare it to Western *reality*, including divorce and cheating.

Don't you see that this is a double-standard?

If you want us to think about the idealized version of Islam and not the way it's really lived out in the world, that's fine -- as long as you then compare it to idealized versions of other cultures, too. But if you're going to talk about the way other cultures exist in the real world, then you have to open Muslim societies up to the same scrutiny.

First i respect all people here .. but i thnik it is not a good idea to discuss this subject , you know why ... ??

there is many resonse first one beouse it is realy dusgusting su..bject second becouse we live in arabic community and you know what that mean for us ...

With all my respects for you and for all

PMSL

yes super7 :-)

yaaay finally we agree on something :-D

Ok so in a roundabout way we agree. It is best to look both ways with your eyes open when crossing the road.

Yes we believe in fate.We believe that we choose it too.However, there are things we cannot control..

We choose to apply reasons and God chooses the results..

Everyone gets what they deserve. If they were treated unjustly in this life there will be a day of complete just. Not all in this life because people are playing and polluting the environment.. etc. God is watching and examining ...in the day of judgment all things will put in its proper place.. this life is but a road.

If you choose to drive shutting your eyes then you chose not to use the common sense..You chose to have the fate of a car accident. However, you may not have it.The result is not your business..It’s God’s. Ones you believe so you get relieved because you know what your role is: To apply reasons ( physically, according to the known rules of nature)

The argument of fate is no easy.After all Ofcourse it is us who chose the end we deserve according to our deeds in this life. Free will!. God shows us and tellsus where each road takes us. God made us the roads and the rules of the reactions of the actions we commit.

I don´t know...what am I? Told you, I feel dizzy. I´m gonna go and splash in the pool. Bye everyone.

I guess the bright side is we can divorce and go scratch that itich somewhere else. We aren't stuck in relationships that aren't satisfying mentally or phisically.

Butterfly you are western. or were you replying to my earlier one?

I think you are lucky then. Sexual attraction dies sometimes. You get bored. 7 year itch etc.

Some make it some don't

Bah, rubbish, Super. I believe in Love and I believe that it starts with a strong sexual attraction. Everything else (respect, understanding, friendship, bond, etc) comes later. The sexual attraction doesn´t die.

Ah isn't that sweet. Westerners are die hard romantics at heart. :) It makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. I can't wait till I find my special someone so I can have a feeling of "sanctified fullfillment."

Tell me about it. How about we all just agree that what everyone really wants is a romantic, bigamous, homosexual relationship and than we will all be happy.

if i could be bothered to type I would put a sunday times article all about romanticism (i.e. the romantic movement in the west not flowers etc)

But interestingly would our non western friends agree with the following extract from it

"Many cultures have celebrated the art of sex - we need only think of the erotic murals of Pompeii and ancient India. But romantic love - the belief that sexual attraction can be the opening to a lifelong bond between two unique individuals that secures happiness for both - is something quite different. Such a sense of sanctified fulfilment is found nowhere except the late modern west"

too many topics on this forum, what are we talking about agian? homosexuality? Bigamy? fate? Romanticism?

ok lili but it doesn't matter if you know your own fate.

If what happens has already been decided what difference does it make what decisions you make (or if you cross the road with your eyes shut)

There weren't as many divorces 20 years ago in the Western World. We've been overrun by romantic movies and stories, we've forgotten what relationships are actually based on. And isn't just happening to us either, slowly but surly its happening in the Muslim world as well. I read an article the other day that says Saudi Arabia is having problems because a lot of young girls refuse to marry because they want to wait to find a good match. And arrange marriages are dying out in India as well.

I say down with Harlequin romances and John Cusack movies.

not 200 years ago just look at 50 years ago

tell me if this link works (i have my doubts)

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/STATBASE/xsdataset.asp?More=Y&vlnk=7077&All=Y&B2.x=50&B2.y=20

anyway it says in 1950 rate was 2.8 per 1000 todat its 14

They certainly drive with their eyes shut.

Just kidding, I couldn't resist that one. ;)

lili yes there are more divorces in teh west now but there were very few 200 years ago.

As a culture we have embraced the romantic ideal and I think a side effect of that is that people are more likely to move on in a relationship if it isn't fulfilling their immediate needs.

I think as we get more inclined to take religion with a pinch of salt the institution of marriage changes in its role. many believe it doesn't have one.

There is no social contract anymore like there was in previous times or in other cultures. Social contract is not a great expression i mean we no longer marry for the good of the family etc.

This means that there is no real barrier to leaving a marriage that isn't providing what you want from it.

No bad thing I feel. I firmly believe that we have one shot at life and then it is eternal nothingness so you better make sure you are enjoying yourself while you are here.

Yes super7 we do beleive in fate...But no one knows his or her fate...so we need to choose the path we take, make intelligent choices and plan for the future (free will)....no one knows his/her future..... .lili.

I have a question about islam. Do muslims believe in fate? i.e. has you path already been written for you in advance?

If yes do you cross the road with your eyes shut and if not why not?

What do you believe in laudgi7?

And BTW no offense taken what so ever....lili.

NO, I DON"T think that the closest country to Islam is Saudi...I don't think any country is following Islam....Better to look at individuals who follow islam...Their easier to find......Saudi tries but i think the core is not too pure...........lili.

so as i understnad it (and respect it) you believe that every signle word of the Koran has been written by God.

So, do you feel that if so, the country that most closely resembles and follows it is Saudi (as i undersand but could be completely wrong)

So, in that light would you like Qatar to follow their example?

Lili, your English is so good mashallah ..Wish I could express myself that way.

Now I guess I’m stepping out of this “debate� ..

At least I made it clear that I’m not in the closet lol

no offence here truly ...(more of a joke) i also know of someone also who god talks to

his name is Georgie W.

1)Women in islam have the right to make any conditions/terms in their marriage certificate.....They can mandate that the husband is not allowed to marry another woman besides her if she wishes...the marriage certificate/license is like a contract between two people.....write whatever you want in it, agree on it and live a happy life..lol

2)As I said millions of times.....Just because a person is a muslim does not nessecarily mean he abides by what Islam states......cheating is forbidden.....Doing something that results in the pain and suffering of someone is unacceptable.....It is a law in Islam......so if these men are hurting their wives and children by their actions, if most of it is negetive with no mentionable positive, then it is wrong.

3) If you believe in god and that he is the creator of all than you must be willing to let go of your ego and think for 5 seconds..........................God created us, he (subhan allah)knows us inside out, he knows what were thinking even before we think it........He knows what will happen until the end of time and with this knowledge is able to see farther than the human mind could ever percieve..............he has the over veiw.... the big picture.................so are we going to debate every single order he asks of us???...........Haven't you ever done something and then in retrospect wished you had done something else??well god already knows what is going to happen....He knows....We DON"T KNOW...why are we arguing

4) As for the 21 century...how's that working for all of you??

5) I agree with you that the first wife has no business being subjected to this and my opinion of women who agree to marry a married man is quite low....

Tell me What are the divorce rates in the west??

What about extra marital affairs??

What about broken homes ?

How is it all working out?

Qatarcat...what are exactly the rights we are missing out on....make sure not to confuse w3hat is in Islam with the malpractice of Islam by certain Muslims? lili.

i will try and respond but i fear we are boring everyone else...

I am familiar with Bailey and Pillards study and there are significant problems with it. First, as i have said previously, if homosexuality is genetically determined, why did only 52% of the identical twins share the same sexual orientation? How about the other 48% of the twins who differed in their sexual orientation? How do we account for them? Second and more importantly, the study was based upon a sample of twins which was not random. As critics have pointed out, Bailey and Pillard did not rule out the possibility that they had preferentially recruited twins where both brothers were gay by advertising in homosexual newspapers and magazines rather than in periodicals intended for the general public. Indeed, it now appears that preferential recruitment did occur in the 1991 study – a more recent 2000 study by Bailey and his colleagues, using volunteers recruited, not from the gay community but from the Australian Twin Registry, reveals that only 20% and not 52% of identical twins share the same homosexual orientation. This is not as significant a difference between identical and fraternal twins as earlier reported. Thus, as the authors of the 2000 paper conclude, it is very difficult to distinguish the genetic from the environmental influences on sexual orientation.

that´s exactly what my husband says.

Aisha & Dohagirl,

This is a major difference between the Bible and the Qur'an. In the Bible, God's prophets often do things we consider immoral: Moses [Musa] commits murder, Lot [Lut] commits incest, David [Dawood?] commits adultery AND murder. We often see these things as evidence that God's will can be done through even the least likely person. In Islam, to my understanding, the suggestion that prophets would behave so despicably is considered blasphemous.

GIASI,

Have you studied genetics much? The issue you're raising here is the one of penetrance. I'm certainly not an expert on this, but here's what I know. We tend to think of genes as a yes/no proposition: either you got the allele for blue eyes or you didn't. But, in fact, many genes have incomplete penetrance, which means that even if you got the allele for a certain characteristic, it might not ever be expressed. (Type 1 Diabetes is this way. It is clearly genetic and biological -- but if one identical twin has is, there's only a 30% chance the other twin has it. Both twins have the genes for diabetes, but the genes aren't always expressed.) This is actually the case for a lot of genetic diseases and predispositions. It's very rare for the concordance rate between identical twins to be 100% for anything more complex than eye color.

A better way to measure the effects of genes is to compare the concordance rate between identical (monozygotic) twins with the concordance rate between fraternal (dizygotic) twins. Since we assume that twins got similar upbringings, any differences between the concordance rates would tend to indicate the influence of genes. The study along this line that I'm most familiar with is Bailey & Pillard's (1991). According to their study, if a man is gay then his identical twin [identical genes, same upbringing] would have a 52% chance of being gay, his frateral twin [similar genes, same upbringing] a 22% chance, and his adoptive brother [different genes, somewhat similar upbringing] 11%. That shows a significant impact of genes.

So, the short answer: homosexuality definitely seems to have a strong genetic basis, but genes don't tell the whole story. As with any other complex characteristic, environment also plays a vital role. (It's also important to note that "environment" includes the prenatal environment, possibly to a larger extent than the environment after a baby is born. As the APA puts it, "Research suggests that the homosexual orientation is in place very early in the life cycle, possibly even before birth." )

Aisha-don't know which story of Soddom and Grmorrah you read, but thats the one in the Old Testament that I read.

Woman has a right to stay or leave if the husband wants to marry another one??? How does that sound as a consolation? She does NOT have the right to keep her husband from marrying a second wife! How is leaving her husband, or staying and sharing, a good thing, if all she wants is to be the only wife (and come on, who wouldn't?)

And yes, men and women cheat the world over, and it's not limited to muslims or non-muslims, as TG1234 rightly mentions. I would say that Muslim men (when abroad) are sexual predators, and back home they are all proper and well-behaved. So a Muslim man can have his 4 wives, plus up to 4 misyar wives (legally!), and if they are not enough for him he can still go frolicking in Casablanca or Manama! So much for monogamy... And if that is not cheating, then I don't know what is. At least non-muslim women have certain rights (unlike muslim women) over their husbands, their children, and their property - so a non-muslim man will think many times before attempting to cheat or choose another wife.

2 wives sounds terrible to me. Surely 1 is enough for anyone!!!!

Because it gives evidence from hundreds of years ago. Certainly societies have move on.

Yes, there was a time when the church run campaigns to demonize women, but I find it disgusting that Islam uses this reasoning to defend their so-called women´s rights in Muslims societies.

The right of woman to choose his husband (even if he´s already married)??? How about the rights of the wife that is being left behind?

So, if men can marry four wives, then women should be allowed to do exactly the same.

The bit of children rights to know who his father is makes no sense, modern science would accurately unveil he mystery . So that doesn’t serve to answer my question of why a woman could not have four husbands, and men and women would then have the same rights. If a woman has wealth to support her children… then, why not?

The bit of “Women needs husbands�. What for? Says who? Please, welcome to the 21st century. A woman does not need a husband.

More women than men? Yes, over 75, but the fact is that more boys than girls are being born everyday. So, at marriageable age, today, there are more men than women.

Also, cheating is frowned upon in our culture, however male bigamy is acceptable in yours.

You seem to have misunderstood me COMPLETLY.

I hate the idea of a second marriage let alone a third and fourth....i'm just trying to find justification if any to the greed and selfishness of men...

Read my last point carefully...i said it is NOT an islamic requirement to marry alot....infact it SHOULD be used in dire straits when their is no other option....in my opinion it is should not be a matter of whime and of personal fancy, but rather a nessecity to avoid adultry.....

then again i must beleive that our creator knows those whom he created inside out....I have faith

I do not on the other hand have "expert comments" on either subjects you asked about....sorry....i'm not as well informed as you hoped i would be.

.lili.

Also Lili..

Your expert comments on Musyar and Mutha Marriages please??

Lili,

Lili and Aisha are great defenders and preachers of Islamic Values..(If people are actually interested..??) The problem is with the reality...which is less than perfect..So Lili you believe that all men in the middle east who have second wives do so because of the reasons listed by you??(There are hundreds of thousands of men in Saudi Arabia who despite marrying and divorcing several times still need to travel to Bahrain on weekends..)

Couple of questions..I hope you will respond with your usual alacrity..

1. What was in the minds of the daughters of the now famous (and Hiding ) duo in Afghanistan when they looked forward to the great union of marrying the two ?? Could you quote a famous line on why this was great??

2.I hope you dont believe that cheating is limited to non-Muslim men?

Did you find the link disturbing?

May i ask why?

Muslim women are like all women ,

Of course they are not happy but the husband is required to inform the woman of his intent to remarry and the wife has a choice to stay or leave ......Are non muslim women happy when their husbands cheet on them behind their backs??

But with the burden of equality I think only fools choose to take another wife.

Bigamy is somtimes the only option though.....

1) A man is dying for a child and his wife is totally barren

2) The wife develops a mental/physical disability that enables her to preform her "wifely " duties...

3) In times of war when women are widowed and children are orphaned and they need to be taken care of....or where the number of women exceeds the number of men to the point that they are unable to marry and have families of their own......

God Knows best.....

We have to bare in mind that this is not a command for men to marry more but rather a command for them to limit the number of women to no more than four....

One MUST not do ALL that is forbidden but one is NOT required to do all that is available (not forbidden)) .lili.

Did you find the link disturbing?

May i ask why?

Muslim women are like all women ,

Of course they are not happy but the husband is required to inform the woman of his intent to remarry and the wife has a choice to stay or leave ......Are non muslim women happy when their husbands cheet on them behind their backs??

But with the burden of equality I think only fools choose to take another wife.

Bigamy is somtimes the only option though.....

1) A man is dying for a child and his wife is totally barren

2) The wife develops a mental/physical disability that enables her to preform her "wifely " duties...

3) In times of war when women are widowed and children are orphaned and they need to be taken care of....or where the number of women exceeds the number of men to the point that they are unable to marry and have families of their own......

God Knows best.....

We have to bare in mind that this is not a command for men to marry more but rather a command for them to limit the number of women to no more than four....

One MUST not do ALL that is forbidden but one is NOT required to do all that is available (not forbidden)) .lili.

for the information. I found it very disturbing but I guess that´s just me and my culture.

Are muslim women happy for their husbands to marry someone else?

Aisha..I agree with you partly...

However even if there is more monogamy found in Islam...it does not stop men for going around...and Men of any faith..Even if they pout the name of GOD often..are more than inclined to do what is certainly not sanctioned in any religion...

It would be pretty instructive to have a look at the Saudi Men at a weekened at Bahrain..Monogamy?? God Forbid!!

Its globalization..where the element of Love has been completely removed from a relationship....Loads of "Off-the-Shelf" stuff is available..with appropriate names..

" Of course that didn't stop Lot from sending his daughters out to be raped, or sleeping with them later."

!!!!!!!

Dohagirl, this is soo untrue!!

there is a one islamic version of the story.What you said is a calumnyyyy.If you are not a religious person then please do not talk like this about the messengers of Allah..They are way purer..

Anyway, I don't have time now..I didn't read all what you wrote up there...

Butterfly, I don't really have time to explain but I hope you get the answer from other muslim member here...putting in mind that Muslims Today are the Most Monogamous.FACT.

I found you this link that I've read before..Hope it'll be usefull

http://www.islamtomorrow.com/articles/marry_4_women_too.htm

Christ was not born on 25 Dec. 25 Dec is a pagan festival worshiping the return of the sun after shortest day of the year (21 Dec).

Than wouldn't identical twins also be subject to the same social and environmental conditions? Why would one be gay and the other not? And what social/environmental conditions would make someone gay?

This percentage could be explained by social/environmental influences. identical twins are genetically identical. if homosexuality was genetic, they would both be homosexual all of the time.

I agree. We can say that no evidence to date has shown that it is. If i see solid scientific evidence then i will accept that it is.

Here's a crazy thought...maybe we haven't found the genetic code that makes someone homosexual yet! Shocking, I know. But the fact that even 39% of identical twins are both homosexual is pretty large, especially if you consider that identical twins are rarly 100% identical. Also, perhaps it is something that occurs after the separation of the egg. Perhaps, as I believe, we are all carry the gene for homosexuality but it requires some balance of hormones or chemicals in the brain to bring it out.

There is so little that we know about our own chemical make up that you can't say that homosexuality is not genetic yet.

Marjorie... if homosexuality were genetic i would expect to see identical twins to show a 100% incidence rate where both were homosexual. In reality, the famous study carried out in australia showed an incidence rate of only 38%.

The finger length study that you mention showed that lesbian women were slightly more likely to have male index/ring finger ratios. The study failed to give an explanation why there were heterosexual women with the same ratios.

Respect

GIASI

Jeez, I can't even get one boyfriend, much less more than one husband.

But if I could...;)

I do have a real problem with cousins getting married.

But my biggest problem: Why are men allowed to have more than one wife but women cannot? Whatever happend to gender equality?

Please someone explain...

I love your reasoning, and you have convinced me. To be honest I never really thought about how gay people might feel about marriage.

I guess it´s live and let live, they don´t hurt anyone by getting married, so why should I oppose?.

About adopting... there are so many children in need for care in this planet...If a couple of homosexuals can help to raise a healthy child by adoption... then bless them.

I didnt use the terminologies "wrong" or "disgusting". What i have said is that i believe its unnatural and poses serious health risks because its inherently against human physiology.

GIASI:

Nobody here is arguing that natural acts are necessarily acceptable, so you're arguing against a straw man. But, since you insist on pursuing it: I posted a link to a multitude of studies that show the innate, genetic character of sexual orientation. If it's not genetic, then why are the identical twins of gay men more likely to be gay than straight -- even if they were raised in different homes? If it's not innate, then why is it correlated with physiological structures like finger length -- or do you think gay people choose their finger length, too?

Here is the connection I see between "natural" and "moral." I don't think that something that comes naturally is always moral. However, I believe that the burden of proof is on the person who wants to prove it's immoral. Violence comes naturally to some people, but I can say that it's immoral because IT HURTS PEOPLE. Likewise, you have to prove that acting on a gay orientation does more harm than good before I'll be convinced that it's immoral.

And gay people DON'T have the same rights. There are dozens and dozens of rights I got automatically when I got married that no gay person in the U.S. can have, even if they get medical power of attorney, name each other on life insurance, etc. I have the right to marry the person I love; my lesbian friends don't have that right. Sure, they could marry a man, but that's not the same. Be aware that the argument you are making was also made against interracial marriage. If whites can marry whites and blacks can marry blacks, then everyone has equal rights, right? No!

Aisha:

I'm trained as a therapist, and in fact I used to work at a counseling center for gay people. Psychiatrists in most of the world do NOT try to make gay people straight. The American Psychiatric Assocation does not consider homosexuality to be a mental disorder and says that "homosexuality per se implies no impairment in judgment, stability, reliability, or general social or vocational capabilities." In the United States it is considered unethical for mental health professionals to try to make gay people straight, because the evidence shows that (a) it can't be done, and (b) the attempt to do so is harmful.

You want gay people to pretend that they're straight, but THAT is making a crow try to walk like a pigeon. They're crows (gay), not pigeons (straight). Why should they pretend to be someone they're not?

I know that. What I'm saying is that something that is good or acceptable in one culture isn't in another. Obviously Qatari's aren't ready to accept homosexuality, but Westerners don't accept and aren't ready to accept bigamy and incest. So which culture is the right one? Or hey maybe we've all got it wrong. But before you judge someone from being homosexual you should remember that there is someone out there who says what you're doing is wrong and disgusting. (By you I mean it in a general sense, not neccessarily you GIASI, could be anyone reading).

Judge not lest ye be judged.

Qatari Law is based on Islamic Shariah Law which prohibits homosexuality altogether, never mind homosexual marriage.

Marriage to cousins is not considered incest here. I do agree though that marriage to cousins can lead to genetically driven health problems. I believe in the UAE (and maybe here) health screenings are compulsory for potential couples to reduce the health risks.

Super.. i have never denied that homosexuals have a desire to be homosexual because of the way that they feel. and if they desire to choose a homosexual lifestyle then its up to them. i do have a problem with homosexuals trying to convince the vast majority of humanity that it isnt a sexual preference. that its genetic, or natural and based on this we should offer them "special treatment".

Respect

GIASI

actually on that subject im not religious but found it interesting that the tsunami and the earthwquake at bam, iran (2005 and 2004) both happened on the 26th December, one day after the birth of christ (which i doubt as cannot see people being that accurate then)both by earthquakes etc

i know bad things happen all the time but that made an impression on me.

So why is Qatar denying homosexual marriage. It allows bigamy and incestous unions (first cousins).

Frankly I see no problem with bigamy as long as all parties are consentual and have participated in a psychological assessment. But incestous relationships get into an area of consent that is harder to prove and health problems for potential children that make it difficult to allow.

mj no he didn't. I think it was probably just an earthquake/volcano/natural disaster/they didn't exist anyway (maybe).

Perhaps you think that the 200,000 odd who died in the Tsunami were gay or evil or something?

mmmmm... no .. marking example the u.s. i'd like to see a same-sex couple down to alabama saying this (although legal to practice .. there are limited rights beyond that) well not all of the u.s. but large portions of it yes

Thing is Giasi and even from your personal experience you must know this...it is not just a choice. I say your personal experience because you, I assume, like me think the thought of engaging in a sexual act with a male is pretty horrible. To me being key.

So if it was a choice then presumably you would have had to make that choice and so would I. I didn't because I am not that way inclined.

This suggests that some are that way inclined and in fact feel completely differently towards members of the same sex than you or me. The fact that they feel this way is nothing to do with them.

Why should they not be allowed to follow their desires in just the same way as you or I follow ours?

In socities where homosexuality is legal, they are afforded exactly the same rights as heterosexuals. They can marry one person of the opposite sex. Homosexuals enjoy full citizenship rights; they can vote, own or transfer property, name life insurance beneficiaries, and grant medical power of attorney, among other rights.

Denying homosexual marriages is no different to denying bigamy or incestuous marriages.

by the way crows and pigeonscome from the same class and philum of birds i believe (chordatie and aves) so i guess its like comparing this to inter-racial relationship or are you talking about a male crow and a male pigeon?

I don't know what kind of psychiatrists you see Aisha but the ones I've met have always said be true to yourself and do what makes you happy as long as you don't hurt others.

People of Lut, give me a break. If you want Sodam and Gerromorah (can't remember how to spell that), than perhaps it had more to do with the villagers desire to rape the angels than it had with the actual homosexual urge. Of course that didn't stop Lot from sending his daughters out to be raped, or sleeping with them later. So if you're giving me the religious aspect, does that mean its better to rape women and commit incest than it is to be homosexual?

I love how people continue to talk about homosexuals as if they are some different sort of human being. They are human the same as the rest of us, and therefore are subject to the same rights and priveldges that heterosexuals have.Rights and choices, that heterosexuals have: what like being able to take out life insurance on a partner, being able to make decisions when they are sick or dying, Opening up a joint bank account? Stop talking about them like they are African Americans in 1950's America.

Butterfly: They are not naturally programmed to raise a family. What are they robots? Homosexuals are men and women and they are just as programmed to raise children as all other men and women are. It's not like their sterile, they just can't have children in the homosexual union. Nothing's stopping them from having children in any other union. Homosexuality and Heterosexuality are not linked with the desire to have children. Lots of heterosexuals don't want kids, and lots of homosexuals do. Sexuality has nothing to do with how good a parent you will be.

im orry am unfamiliar with expression ... lut??????

By nature, we should know or even assume what’s right and what’s wrong. What’s natural and what’s not. Keep it simple!

Only the opposite poles are attracted to each other.

If some has gone astray, they shouldn’t live the lie being from some third category. They should see a psychiatrist who may REMINDE them of who they are before it gets too late. I’m not saying that they are bad(ie evil) ..They are just sickkkkk.

I remember the story that my Grandma told me about that crow bird who wanted to walk like the pigeon .. But it couldn’t and when it wanted to be as it was it forgot how it used to walk…Sooo our poor crow ended up walking a funny new kinda walk that relates to non of the species …

Why to imitate the pigeon at first?? Maybe they just like the way the pigeons walk or maybe the pigeons are more wanted while the crow has some self-esteem issues loool

How on earth would you ask us to see that funny walk normal? It’s simply not!!!

Common for God sake! This is sickness!

God destroyed the people of Lut because of this ... REMEMBER!

I know "natural" and "acceptable" are different. My views on it being natural was in response to the views that it was . Existence in the animal kingdom is not a premise for "natural". Its the gay community thats using this argument. The gay community over the years has failed to prove that 1) it is innate or genetic and 2) it is irreversible so they have pulled out the "it happens with animals" card not me.

As far as i am concerned, i consider it unnatural because it goes against physiology. its as unnatural as other activities man indulges in that go against physiology. We still do them because we make a choice. If people want to make that choice its up to them. But they shouldnt try to illicit special treatment or elevate chosen behaviour to innate instinct.

Respect

GIASI

Winnie

This isn't a topic for the weekend its a topic forever...phew. Just realised why I could find my first reponse (Its a civil...) I have just uncovered page 2 and 3 and 4...

So, sorry for repeating myself a few columns on I thought I aforementioned did not post through, hence I re entered.

Dohagirl - you are right of course, I was thinking of little England and our recent change in the law. Forgot that some countries were already streets ahead.

My point GIASI was that you have to choose a tack. First you argue against it because it is not natural and then you go: hold on even if it is natural we don't want to emulate animals and nature because we are humans.

Winnie,

You're right that my brother (who lives in New Zealand) legally entered into a civil union, not a marriage. The distinction seems silly to me. Their relationship is legally recognized, and it was blessed by clergy; how is that not marriage?

GIASI,

You see, you ARE equating "natural" with "acceptable." Cannibalism is clearly natural, since it occurs (in extreme circumstances) in nature. Of course, it is also immoral, because it infringes on other people's rights. This very nicely proves my point: "Is it natural" and "Is it acceptable?" are COMPLETELY unrelated questions.

I never suggested we start emulating animal behavior. *You're* the one who seems to be arguing that an act's "naturalness" (whatever that means, since apparently to you it doesn't mean "occurring in nature") has some bearing on its morality. Strangely enough, I've gotten into this same argument with dozens of people, and it always goes the same. Someone says homosexuality is unnatural; I say, "it is perfectly natural, although of course that has no bearing on its morality," and then that same person accuses me of suggesting we start emulating animal behavior. I never drew a connection between animal behavior and human morality.

Dweller,

How is homosexuality being rammed down your throat?

I wear a wedding ring, which tells everybody I meet that I am in a sexual relationship with a member of the opposite sex. Doesn't that shove my heterosexual lifestyle down people's throat? Why shouldn't gay people be allowed to do the same? I know scores of gay people, and none of them want to talk about their sex lives to strangers. They just want to have normal relationships and be treated like normal adults.

Super7,

Sorry; I wasn't paying much attention there, was I?

Butterfly,

Do you oppose marriage rights for people who are known to be infertile, and people who are past the age of menopause? Because if marriage is only for children, then you should. But if you acknowledge that there are benefits of marriage besides childrearing, then there is no reason not to extend those benefits to same-sex couples as well.

Why should that the basic rights of marriage that have nothing to do with children (like the right to visit your spouse in hospital, or to inherit from them) be "exclusive to heterosexual partners."

Winnie

Its not a gay marriage it is a civil partnership. This enables gay couples to have more rights as partners in such areas as inheritance rights and pensions. Also as a legally recognised partner you have the right to sit at your partners death bed and be with them in their final hours. Something which heterosexual couples take for granted but gay couples could and have been denied by families of the patient when they have refused the accept the gay relationship, even if they have been life long partners.

What consenting adults do behind closed doors is entirely their own business. As long as both as willing and there are no children or animals involved and no one is hurt (unless they want to be hurt... but thats a different game altogether).

To me, the main purpose of marriage is to form a family and raise children in a secure environment. That brings me the question, what purpose does it serve for gay to marry?. They NATURALLY cannot procreate and certainly, they are not naturally programmed to raise a family. Yes, they can succed at giving a bearable environment for children to grow, they surely can do it better than some unscrupulus parents, but it is unnatural.

I´m not saying that homosexuality is against nature. I´m saying that they should stick to their homosexual nature and do not claim rights or choices that are exclusive to heterosexual partners.

yes i did... and i maintain its not natural. Just because it appears in a small percentage in a limited number of species doesnt make it natural.

Winnie,

Just to clarify there are several countries in the world that allow gay MARRIAGE, not just civil union. Canada is one of the them. The United church and some Anglican churches and several others will marry gay couples,if you need the religious aspect to legitimize it.

Cheers

Cannibalism is apparent in most animal species including humans because of the biological urge called hunger. And there is no species that I have heard of that actively hunts members of the same species. Any cases of Cannibalism are usually the results of extreme hunger or a matter of survival.

It's only humans that have turned it into something ritualistic, dirty or applied more merit to it than its worth. Because we have the brain power to say, hey why should we eat each other when there is plenty of other things out there to eat.

Cannibalism cannot be compared to homosexuality. And if you can make that leap than you have some deeply ingrained sterotypes and prejudices about homosexuals and homosexual lifestyle.

Interesting Giasi because it was you who first touted the unnatural argument.

I don't dislike gays, even though my daughter calls me homophobic.

What I did object to was that when it was first made "legal" it seemed to be rammed down my throat at every opportunity, particularly by the media and by the host of well known figures that subsequently "came out".

I don't go round bragging that I screw women so why should I be lambasted with people openly indicating that they screw men.

Cannibalism is apparent in some animal species, does it make that natural? acceptable?

I dont see how incidences in the animal kingdom make this natural. Are you suggesting we start emulating animal behaviour?

Respect

GIASI

marjorie if you read my earlier posts on this topic I am one of the few who are on your side. My post about sex being "icky" was referring to some of the sheltered attitudes exhibited here.

Winnie

Its a civil partnership not a marriage. I have been invited to one in the summer and I feel very honoured as my friend has had to choose carefully who she invites due to the overall prejudice and misunderstanding on the whole issue.

It is not only a commitment to each other but the practicalities of ensuring equality of treatment in such areas of inheritance and pensions. Until civil partnerships came along a gay partner did not even have the right to sit at the death bed of a terminally ill partner if the patients family did not want them there. No matter how long term their relationship was.

We need as a society to move forward into the 21 century and let consenting adults get on with their own sexual preferences. As long as not child or animal is involved it is none of our business.

I'm not into swinging or S&M but I would not look down on a couple or avoid them because of their choices. If I like them as individuals thats enough for me.

Hope that doesn't sound sanctimonious...

Giasi - I, like Marjorie, and most of the medical evidence that does not originate in the countries where homosexuality is a crime, believe homosexuality to be outside the scope of our "choices". Do you think that, given a choice, people would actually CHOOSE to be gay because they just want to be gay?

Think how much social stigma is attached to bona fide homosexual people and what they have to go through in their life to have a shot at happiness. I doubt someone would actually choose it. (I am not talking about whopping statistics of perfectly heterosexual people engaging in homosexual intercourse simply from the lack of access to the oposite sex - and in the Middle East this is quite common.)

You cannot promote this behavior just as it is absurd to promote heterosexual behaviour. But people remain people, whether homo- or heterosexual, and both groups should be entitled to their rights as humans. I am not aware of any special treatment homosexuals require, but if you are talking about persecution and prohibition that they have to endure - I don't think this should be either persecuted or prohibited.

I don't see homosexuality immoral. I agree with Marjorie - it's public shunning and persecution that are immoral. These people don't hurt you, you don't have to join them, you don't have to give them anything, but why deny them what is rightfully theirs, and label them as criminals?

Amen! :-)

My brother is gay, and he got married just three days ago! It's hard for me to believe that there are people out there who think this is a BAD thing. How on earth can it be bad the he wanted to stand up before God and witnesses and promise to be loyal to the person he loves?

Now that's "family values"!

Wow, here I thought I was signing onto a forum about life in Qatar, instead I'm siging onto a forum run by biggots and hate mongerers. I should have stayed far far away.

Homosexuality is natural, it has been documented in many different animal species. Hell, two years ago a guy won a Nobel Prize for proving homosexuality in ducks. My guess, though I'm no scientist, is that its a result of over population.

As for marriage and adopting children. More power to them. If a gay couple wants to adopt and raise a child in a loving environment than I think that is wonderful. It's far better than allowing that child to be raised in an instituation where there is a strong possibility of abuse and neglect. Or even better than allowing these children to go back to their drug addled, alcoholic, abusive HETEROSEXUAL parents. If you disagree than you have serious issues about what is best for a child. A loving, nuturing environment is always better than an abusive one.

I have two close friends that were raised by same sex parents and they are wonderfully adjusted and neither of them are gay. In fact they are some of the nicest, kindess people I know who would never dream of discriminating against people the way people on this forum have.

Gay people in no way shape or form hurt you. They are living there lives the way that makes them happy,in consentual relationships.

As for diseases, give me a break, do you know how many diseases are spread by heterosexual sex? everything from the common yeast infection to AIDS. And if you are talking about Unnatural sexual behaviour, there are plenty of hetero couples who get up to the same "unnatural sexual positions" and they enjoy them an awful lot.

And if gay people want to marry than why shouldn't they. God knows enough heterosexual couples aren't willing to take the plunge anymore and prefer to live in common law relationships, and the divorce rate is what? 60% in North America now? At least someone wants to honour the tradition of marriage.

Getinandstayin,

I think I made my reasoning pretty clear in the above post (called "Sorry I'm coming to this"). When I call homosexuality natural, I am thinking of two main points. First, it clearly occurs in nature, since hundreds of species engage in same-sex coitus. Second, there is mounting evidence that homosexuality in humans has a strong genetic basis. If we are genetically predisposed to a behavior, and that behavior also occurs in nature, then I think it's safe to call that behavior natural.

Re: choices people make because they want to. Gay people definitely have a choice: they can choose to acknowledge their attraction to members of the same sex, or they can choose to deny that attraction. Gay people can choose to ACT straight, but they can't choose to BE straight.

Why you insist on talking about people inserting things into each other is beyond me. Why the fixation with gay sex? I assume you think that I have the right to be married to my husband, to raise a family, etc. You wouldn't feel the need to talk crudely about our sex life every time you talked about a straight relationship. Why not treat gay relationships the same? Relationships (gay or straight) are primarily about love and companionship, not about inserting things into each other.

And I don't demand special treatment; I demand equal treatment. My marriage certificate entitles my husband and me to certain benefits, with regard to citizenship, immigration, etc. People who marry members of the same sex should receive the same benefits. It's only fair.

Marjorie... on what basis do you define homosexuality as "natural"? I have given you my reasoning why i think it is "unnatural" (see previous posts).

I am not using the "immoral" argument at all, thats neither here nor there, from a biological perspective, homosexuality is neither natural or healthy. These are undeniable facts. Just as smoking cigarettes is neither natural or healthy. These are choices that people make because they want to.

I think that if two consenting men want to insert things into each other in the privacy of their own homes, thats their business. However, to promote this behaviour as "natural" and DEMAND special treatment is unacceptable.

Respect

GIASI

Lilipink,

Well yes, I did say that being genetic doesn't actually make a difference to the morality of it. As you say, there are immoral actions that we're genetically predisposed to, as well. Still, it's annoying to see the old allegation of "unnatural" being flung around when it's quite easy to see that homosexuality is perfectly natural.

I agree with you that measuring the likely outcomes of an action are a pretty decent way of deciding on its morality. From that perspective, I think homosexual relationships are perfectly moral. We've already established that, by nature, a certain percentage of people are gay and are not interested in relationships with the opposite sex. For those people, there are many benefits to gay relationships: companionship, stablity, a good environment for rearing children -- basically, all the same benefits that I get out of being married. The main disadvantage is, I suppose, that by being openly gay you risk social shunning. But in my mind, that shows that the public's negative reaction to homosexuality -- not homosexuality itself -- is immoral.

Aisha & Super7,

I'd be perfectly happy not to talk so publicly about sex, but most of the comments here about same-sex relationships have been fixated on the sexual aspect of those relationships. I don't know why. I mean, I can talk about my husband in public without people feeling the need to imagine our sex life. Why can't people do the same with same-sex relationships?

Scientists also say that cheating, stealing, alcoholism and lying are genetic.....is that an excuse???

in my opinion we should always ask ourselves why we do a certain thing, what use will come out of it for me and others and wether the benefits outweigh the disadvantages..... if most of what i get is negative then is it really worth anyones while??

Nice Aisha. All that horrid sex stuff is a bit icky isn't it.

Ew ew ew , new freakin generation of people of Lut!!

Unbelievably sickkkkk!

GIASI, oh my God what are you? The best thing ever :-) ? Maaan, I respect you so much..I love your logical opinions…you GO man!

Sorry I'm coming to this debate so late; I only just joined Qatarliving.com.

I'm shocked to see so many allegations that homosexuality is "unnatural," when so very many scientific studies that show the opposite. This website gives a good overview of some of the relevant literature: http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_caus4.htm. There are obvious, measurable, physiological differences between gays and straights, and there is good data on monozygotic twins that indicates a strong genetic basis for sexual orientation. (The identical twin of a gay man is more likely to be gay than straight, regardless of whether the two twins were even raised in the same family.)

What's more, there is plenty of evidence that same-sex sexual behavior is found in other species. There's an entire book on this topic (Bruce Bagemihl's "Biological Exuberance") that documents same-sex behavior in literally HUNDREDS of species. Humans are not the only species with a significant gay minority.

Of course, there is a difference between an action being natural/normal/genetic and it being morally acceptable. I believe very strongly that homosexuality is completely morally acceptable, but I can appreciate that there are a variety of viewpoints on this topic. On the topic of its normalcy, though, there is no real debate. The claim that homosexuality is unnatural is simply absurd.

Why people can NEVER agree to disagree? Can't people just realise that it's ok to have different opinions without the need to convince others right, left and centre? :^)

I am neither for nor against homosexuality, as I am heterosexual myself. Therefore how could I be for or against? They don't bother me one bit. I don't care what reasons there are for people to be homosexuals. They are people, and that's enough for me.

However, I am against homosexual couples adopting kids. Why? Because it's not natural. Why isn't it natural? Because naturally, a gay couple could never conceive. So although I have other reasons for being against it, I would just leave it to nature :^)

You allow me the last word.. hmmm. Very intellectual and witty. Only, your tactics don't work for me. Let's leave it at that. Amen.

With so many opinion exchanges...feels like I have already met you :D

butterfly she does seem very active...i hope i could meet u all some time.....lili.

Im so glad you agree with me that you are intellectually challenged and i look forward to your posts as they demonstrate that fact beautifully.

I have said all i need to say, ill allow you the last word and i promise not to fart before you next time

Respect

GIASI

GIASI, I can feel intellectually challenged. As a matter of fact i like to be intellectually challenged. Nothing wrong with that. Only, i hope you do understand, that it is not up to you to decide if you challenge me intellectually. However, what i do not like is that as a last resort you try to impose the other with self esteem issues. I can not blame you, it is like farting with you. You try to be the first to tell someone has farted, while you did it my friend. I can feel intellectually challenged. As a matter of fact i like to be intellectually challenged. Nothing wrong with that. Try to up your level and lower your prejudice, maybe that helps in the discussion.

Wow GIASA you certainly seem invested in this topic!

Pakestak, firstly, i have never "proclaimed" myself a professor. Secondly, i gave you directions to solid scientific evidence that homosexuality is not inherited or genetic or whatever. It is a CHOICE that people make and wish to live their lives. You on the other hand have quoted no evidence whatsoever choosing only to compare religious belief and sexual preference. I cannot see how you can argue the similarities. It really is not my aim to "win you over" as you said, truth be told, i really couldnt care less what you think. However, i suggest you deal with self esteem issues before you post next time as its quite apparent you feel intellectually challenged in some way. maybe THATS genetic ?

Respect

GIASI

Thank you Lili, I'm totally in love with her, but believe me: She is loud and way toooo active! Keeps me busy...:)

LOOOOOL...she's soooo cuuutie (masha2allah)..god bless her butterfly.....she looks as if she has louds of things to say ,places to go ,people to meet.....!!!!!!I just can't stop smiling every time i see the picture.......Please give her a huge cuddle and a big kiss!!!!.lili.

Lili, yes that her! Coming to 8 months next week and getting more and more beautiful every day! :)

GIASI, as a self proclaimed professor you should know that everything is debatable, so listing some books might win you a crowd, but you do not win me over. You circumvented, for obvious reasons, science when it comes to religion. If you would, you would not find any bullet proof scientific evidence for religion. You would probably end up with argumentation based on the Koran or the Bible. How would you like to proof that i am right or wrong on the matter of being born as a homosexual? Any theory can be falsified. I can be right with my hypothesis or i might be wrong. Writing a book, or quoting a book, does not make you an almighty genius. It is my hypothesis, and you might not agree, you might even have some other fellow men who support you on it, even fellow men that write books. The human brain is more complex than you will ever understand, you do not have the complete answer, neither do i. maybe some people are born that way, maybe some get ïnfected" to speak in the lingo of some people along the way of life. who is right. you or me? or are we both right, or are we both wrong then?

u know what super7...noone said that gays "were the cause of aids ..

but u cannot deny the statistics that say that they are in the high risk catagory....patient X was probably gay ....well u have him to thank for that little present

U know what... after checking out the link u posted i'm even more convinced that promiscuity was denounced by all religions for a very good reason................people do what they want and live life to the fullest but never ever thinking bad stuff could happen to them....but it happened to all patient X's "friends" .lili.

Hey butterfly !!Is that cutie u're baby i've been meening to ask u for the longest time?? .lili.

yup, I guess you can get salmonella via faeces-hand-mouth... But normally you get it by eating poultry/eggs etc in a bad shape...

oh, well, learnt a new fact...

Thats because this type of infection (like shigellosis, amebiasis, and giardiasis) are very easily spread by a certain activity practiced by gay men. Its not exclusive to gays, heterosexuals can transmit it too if they indulge in the same activity. However, it is common in gay relationships. I will leave it to your imagination to discover the activity because i really dont want to post it here.

Respect

GIASI

one of your posts raised some curiosity...why a gay would be more likely to suffer from salmonelosis than an heterosexual?

I cannot be called a homophobe because thats an "irrational fear". Im certainly not scared of homosexuals, i have a "reasoned and rational distaste" for them. I was like you once apathetic and indifferent, but the scientific data out there allowed me to make a reasoned judgement based on the evidence.

Respect

GIASI

wow, Giasi, have you read all this books or just found some titles about the subject in the net?

Moi, I wouldn't say that homosexuality is disgusting or even a "bad" thing. Personally, I couldn't care less about others sexual orientations..I'm just saying that you cannot be a gay and a family man at the same time and therefore I'm against gay marriage, I will go as far as to say that the whole idea is ridiculus...I cannot see how our societies would benefit from that.

sorry... hiccups

Pakestak,

We are not talking intangibles here. If you say people are "born that way" you are implying that some biological quirk made them like this. The gay scientific community has for decades tried in vain to find a biological link for homosexuality. As you are unable to provide point us to evidence that "gays are born that way" let me point you in the direction of evidence that concludes they are not.

King, M and McDonald, E. Homosexuals Who Are Twins: A Study of 46 Probands. British Journal of Psychiatry. 160: 407-409 (1992).

Satinover, J. M.D. (1996) Homosexuality and the Politics of Truth. Grand Rapids. Baker Books

Billings, P. and Beckwith, J. Technology Review, July 1993. p.60

Marie, E. Tomeo "Comparative Data of Childhood and Adolescent Molestation in Heterosexual and Homosexual Persons." Archives of Sexual Behavior 30 (2001): 539.

If you need anymore, please dont hesitate to ask.

im afraid the only gay genes are the ones worn by the village people.

Respect

GIASI

Scientific proof..? Lilipink, of all the people on this forum you want to talk about "scientific proof".. do not make me laugh. scientific proof.. if we could only explain things by science, there would be no god, no allah, no fantasy, etc. if you are too narrow minded to realize that we are all different, have different taste, have different feelings, and yes, that some people are not set up the way most people are, that is fine with me. once again, i think you should respect everyone. even if you can not understand it, or are not the same.

I don't think being gay is a western thing. I've actually heard and seen some gayness(?) here in the Arab world too. What I'm saying its a human thing.

To tell you the truth, I still haven't made my mind up about gay people. I don't know what to make of it. But one thing I do know is, I've seen a person who struggled to deny that he's gay.

He struggled so hard.

Seeing a person struggling against his own will(?), I am persuaded to think that maybe it's not something you can choose to be or do.

Most of western people tend to get away from any kind of formal religion so they can do what ever they want under the "freedom" flag and they are fooling themselfs that everything is fine and harmless, they believe their own lies...

This topic is a waste of time and efforts for all of you, everyone is stick with his/her opinion and as lili said it is a dead end topic. DONE

Ayman

Pray tell pakestaak...after all thats said and done ....what kind of scientific proof do you have that "u are born that way".lili.

after reading the above comments i must conclude that i must be very lucky not to be gay and that many of the above people are not my neighbours, friends or family. i do not have any problem with people being gay. as a matter of fact, my neighbours are gay, and i suspect even some of my friends to be gay. people are born that way. it is not a free choice. gay people do not have to put themselves in a closet so i do not get offended or disgusted. they are human beings with the same rights as i do. i let them be. preventing them to live their lives is a waste of human life and opportunity.

KaZaNoVa

Man lol wat a Topic ,like come on god Created us the other sweet and cute sex ( Females) like why we would think of marrying a man ouch aint it Discusting just mentioning the name it makes me feel yuk

well i think every guy of us dream of having a family of meeting the girl of his dream to built this family, not of meeting his man haahahha Discutsing

Best Regards,

Kazanova

Hiart_029,

Welcome to Qatar

regards, pau

Homosexuality is not something I feel strong about. I don't have strong opinions about the subject.

I did share a flat with a gay once and it was a lot of fun. As I said before I have nothing against homosexuals. Is not something you can choose, you either are or aren't. I agree with most of the points that Super7 made.

BUT. I wouldn't allow them to marry and have the right to adopt children. The main concern of our societies should be to protect our children. Always. By exposing a child to a gay's lifestyle you might be harming that child. I think that's wrong. As I said before, gay people tend to be very promiscous and have sex with others than his partner.

Super, thank you for mentioning again my vegetable joke. but, just for the record: I DO NOT USE VEGETABLES. I just have powerful imagination.

I think ive made myself clear where i stand... but for all those who wanted a list of diseases whose incidence is much much higher (and often exclusively)in the male gay community, here u go

1. AIDS/HIV

2. Human Papillomavirus (HPV) is a collection of more than seventy types of viruses that can cause warts, or papillomas, on various parts of the body.

3. Hepatitis A,B,C

4. Proctitis and Proctocolitis

5. Enteritis

6. Amebiasis, giardiasis, chancroid, donovanosis, Shigellosis, salmonellosis, pediculosis, scabies and campylobacter infections.

I wont go into details here, there is a host of information in journals of studies that show the widely accepted medical opinion linking much higher incidence with male homosexuality.

Respect

GIASI

It is because (and i'm guessing ) showing affection is not a problem in the arab community...they do not associate it with homosexuality...it's innocent so to speak....With men and women it is custumary to keep it behind closed doors...they don't flaunt affection it is considered unacceptable and rude.. .lili.

Qatar is a great place for the same sex to be together, you see men walking together holding hands, etc. If you hold hands with your wife, you might get into trouble. If you are a man with a boyfriend, hold his arm, kiss him on the cheek, no problem.

Something about this I don't understand

These posts made me feel sad and I'm not sure why... I think I was expecting posts that were more about Qatar and life here than ..... well these very hard-nosed issues.... That leads me to ask...does anyone here know what life is like for gay people... Do they enjoy all the same rights as others

oh and it is wrong for men and women there is no distinction!.lili.

Believe me super7.l.i'm not afraid of anything to do with this topic..

Have you read the list of diseases GIASI posted a few blogs up?

Tell me what your proof is that ''modern socaity''vilanised homosexuals...because to the best of my knowledge it was unacceptable all along ...it only became ''cool'' and the happening thing in the 20th century......look this is a dead end forum as far as you and i go so lets just leave it at that.....lili.

No I don't think pedophiles are ok (i said that in my post) I was trying to illustrate that there are many sexual orientations out there that are not simply the concious choice of the person in question.

By living in turmoil I was saying that pedophiles know that what they do is cruel and makes people suffer but they do have impulses to do it. Most resist them some do not.

I am not apologising for pedophiles or excusing them because ultimately it results in the suffering of another person and that cannot be acceptable in society. On this topic watch a film called The Woodsman it is interesting.

homosexuals have an orientation that is mutually consenting

Lili what are the diseases they get and transmit to others. I assume you are referring to AIDS. This was not created by gays please see http://www.avert.org/origins.htm

It is easier to transmit by anal sex and gay men tend to be more promiscuous but it is not their disease.

You cannot explain human nature by referring to our anatomy. Is anal sex wrong with a woman? Why? Because you don't get a baby from it. Is that the only reason you have sex? Is oral sex wrong?

Why is it wrng if from a man?

They did not invent a whole new way of having sex. In fact lili more accurately more modern society created a whole new way of saying that homosexuality was a wrong way of having sex.

I don't understand why you are so afraid of it.

''Pedophiles live in turmoil for much of ther lives trying to resist the illegal urges that they have.''

SUPER7 you think thats ok???

No one said anything about them being inherently evil but that doesn't mean that what they do is alright either.....we all have urges and cravings but we don't go around fullfillng them at the expense of others...people who steal or murder are held accountable but suddenly pedophiles have this whole sob story thing going for them and ''they live in turmoil''...lets not start inventing stories about how they can't help themselves and how it's in their genes......they need to be held accountable and seek HELP for their sickness like every body else.

U can love u're fellow man all u want ..show affection and be the best of freinds u don't have to have sex though.

homosexuality is wrong because it DOES defy human nature...look at our anatomy for crying out loud do i have to explain?????

people have the urge to do something and they invent a whole new way of having sex.....doesn't make it natural.....

look at all the diseases that they get and then transmit to others......Why are these all issues u ignore????.lili..

Wow Caroline, Giasi etc I am amazed at some of the intolerant views on display. Disgusting!!! That is a word that brings up thoughts of hard line right wing politics or christian right movements.

Why on earth is it disgusting? Because you don't like it? Clearly such strong views are from an inhertited morality base with no intelligent thought behind it.

No adam and adam? Comments like that are borderline retarded.

Also the genetic, evolutionary theory behind homosexual "wrongness" is a dangerous route and suggests that sex is purely a procreational activity. Clearly for humans and some apes this is not the case.

Sexual activities provide a strong social bond and as such with intensely social animals like humans they can be used to reinforce these social connections. Chimpanzees use sex just like other apes use grooming to stregthen social bonds.

Furthermore proving whether something is nature not nuture is very very difficult as there are no humans who have not been nutured (meaning being influenced by their upbringing) but I think pure observation suggests that it is not a "choice". Pedophiles live in turmoil for much of ther lives trying to resist the illegal urges that they have. Clearly they have these urges, it is not because they are inherentely "evil" it is just that society (rightly in my view) does not allow them to follow this sexual orientation.

However some societies did. Just as some very enlightened societies considered homosexuality to be perfectly acceptable. Indeed the ancient greeks said that to love a man was the only way to love an equal.

I am not gay, not even remotely but I have absolutely no problem with someone who is. I also believe that they should be able to enjoy all the rights and privileges of everyone in the society in which they live.

I think an important step is to review words like immoral and ask what they really mean. What is it about homosexuality that is immoral? Is the answer "just because it is"? In which case it is just a legacy of some prudish upbringing or society. Is it because it is unnatural? Well who says? Certainly you cannot procreate through homosexual sex but does that make contraception wrong? Giasi is masturbation wrong? Ask Butterfly if sex with inanimate objects is wrong (this is one of your activities listed) i think the vegetable debate rears its head again.

Sex is social as well as procreational.

Wow...caroline....you seem like my kind of woman....hahaha! Only joking, let's party when i am there. Do u have a decent enough social circle of friends who also love to party too?

Don't know Neil Carson. He may have arrived after I left.

Is Patrick Furlong still their? I know Kay Pearson well (she's the DG's secretary).

If you get into HR at all, can you give them my regards.

Thanks

Graham

Dweller

Yes I do and Neil Carson- do you know him

Caroline,

I will try and find some suitable for posting. BTW are you in DAGOC and if so who are you working for?

OK a few more jokes now posted on the other topic.

Meanwhile.....This guy goes into a hardware store and says the assistant "have you got any turpentine?"

"I know what you want the 'terps' for, you want to drink it!" said the assistant.

"No honest guv, I'm redecorating the house and I need to clean the paint brushes."

" Well, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. I've got eight bottle left." said the assistant.

"Got any cold ones?" the guy asked.

GIASI..i was going to participate in this facinating forum but as usual u said most of it and quite well i might add..

I believe the genetic issue is a myth to excuse bad behavior...I believe homosexuality is a sickness , a psychological imbalance and it should be treated as such..I'm not bashing anyone i'm just saying that if u're doing something harmfull and unnatural(i refer to what GIASI wrote) u shouldn't make excuses and try and convince everybody that it's ok ..u should take responsibility for u're actions and get help.

The whole "your free to do as u please 'cause u're not hurting anyone" is in my opinion crap basically ..just because everything u do in life affects someone some where........we should take responsibility for the messeges we send ,

.lili.

dweller

please find some more jokes yours are the best

please

Sorry but I am homophobic (according to my daughter).

Dead against it either men or women.

only if you supply illegal substances .................

Im joking....honest

Hello all!

Seems like you are all enjoying this discussion. Thought I would jump in and say that I am moving to Doha mid-May. On a good deal when there, villa, car etc etc but.......i would love to know how best to meet up with people when there...I am single and a party animal, i am looking to have lots of crazy house parties and make lots of friends! I know doha is a little dry wrt the party scene....so....i'll start a party scene of my own, if anybody's interested to join me in my quest!

Write back [email protected]

Giasi

quit while your ahead!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

do you ?

lol... okey dokey.

I think this is a good point to respectfully agree to disagree. :)

Cheers all

Loki...i am not anti-homosexual. i am pro-nature. I purposely started the thread to do with marriage and not homosexuality. As far as im concerned marriage doesnt come into it because i cannot accept the fundamental principle which is unnatural.

Those who engage in acts against Mother Nature for the sake of unhealthy, self-destructive pleasure are one of the weak links in the chain of the human species. If one link is broken, the chain is broken. If one feels it is acceptable to transgress the Laws of Nature when they do not suit that person's search for pleasure, then exactly where is the consistent ethical stopping point? There is only one; and that is the Laws of Nature.

Homosexuals represent just 1 to 2 percent of the population, but have 50 percent of the syphilis cases and 60 percent of the AIDS cases. Between one-half and three-fourths of homosexual men have, at one point in their lives, contracted hepatitis B, a rate that is 20 to 50 times greater than among heterosexual males. Amebiasis, shigellosis and giardiasis are so common among homosexuals the doctors call these diseases "gay bowel syndrome."

Now do you call that harmless? Dont you think that the social implications are important.

Respect

GIASI

Loki

so were is the line drawn? do we have no standards? no moral fibre? because everyone wants to be so God damn liberal,

If it had affected your life you would think differently- trust me

get a plane come to the Uk take a look

But we create a distinction in the law *now*, by NOT allowing civil ceremony unions.

What is the justification for making this distinction, and discriminating against homosexuals? What detrimental effect would it have on anyone outside that couple, if it was allowed??

Aha... so perhaps it was you who was in the closet after all, GIASI - closet anti-homosexual... :)

Loki

They are NOT capable of having sexual intercourse as you put it. It is a forced unnatural act (ask anyone whos dropped a soap bar in a prison shower :) )

If you want to create a distinction in the law, you are looking for special privileges. Homosexuals will not settle for tolerance; rather, they want their lifestyle to be accepted by society to be equally legitimate to a heterosexual lifestyle. Homosexuals want public endorsement.

Homosexuals already have the same rights as other people. They want special privileges. Those engaging in homosexual behavior should not be denied basic rights, such as the right to vote or the right not to be assaulted.

It is crucial to understand that homosexuality is freely chosen, it is not innate. If we adopt the principle that individuals should be granted privileges outside the norm merely due to choices that they make, that would be ridiculous. We would be obliged to ban discrimination against anyone who engaged in any odd sexual practice (for example, those who enjoy public masturbation, having sex with animals, humping trees, etc).

Respect

GIASI

are you sure its not genetic ?

GIASI - they are biologically not capable of producing an offspring through intercourse. I think most of us understand that. :) They are biologically entirely capable of having sexual intercourse that will NOT produce an offspring.

But you haven't really answered your own original question fully here, GIASI...

Should they be treated differently than heterosexuals (ie and not allowed to formally declare a committment through a civil ceremony)?

Regardless, thanks for sharing your opinion.

no caroline... im not gay... i walk like that because of an old sports injury :)

Respect

GIASI

Giasi

does that mean your not gay ? pmsl

for all its worth... heres what i think

In Nature, there is no biological niche for homosexuality. It runs counter to all principles of biology and physiology. Sex originally came into existence for the purpose of procreation, and the pleasurable component of sex exists merely to ensure that animals (humans included) have intercourse and procreate the species. Hence, sexual activity that exists outside the realm of procreation-that is, sex with animals, sex with prepubescent children, sex with inanimate objects, and sex with someone of one's own sex-are all unnatural. While two men may care for each other, it would be unnatural for either of them to feel a sexual attraction for the other: homosexuals claim that they feel an attraction to others of the same sex, but this does not change the fact that they are biologically not capable of having natural intercourse with that individual. In other words, for those who choose a homosexual lifestyle, the mind is always out of balance with the body. Intuitively speaking, homosexual intercourse is clearly forced. Unlike with a woman (i wont go into the biological mechanics of the difference here), Furthermore, one could only wonder why the rate of sexually-transmitted diseases among those who engage in homosexual sex is many times greater than among those who engage in natural sex.

Put quite simply, sexual attraction to something or someone with which or with whom one cannot reproduce is not natural, balanced or healthy

Respect

GIASI

I am sure if you do a web search you will find plenty of research for both sides. Sorry, but I am too lazy to go and find them myself... :)

Its not that , Its the scratched rings etched into your skin just under your knees

caroline. hehehe... please dont let the wellington boots give you any wrong impressions.

Respect

GIASI

Can anyone give me a title of any research that has found genetic evidence of homosexuality? otherwise i cant accept it as natural.

Giasi,

Are you yourself living in a closet and releaving yourself with the local farmyard animals ,do you have something you want to share with us and thats the reason for this thread?

Caroline... maybe there are people who find homosexuality just as disgusting. i am merely trying to find out where people draw the line.

Respect

GIASI

GIASI, the animals (ie non-human animals) don't exactly get a choice, do they? Very different to willing and consensual sex between two adults, IMHO.

So no, that is not acceptable (to me).

thats absolutely disgusting ..............are you from Wales ...and have a guilty concience over the new born lamb you raped and murdered

as Ive said several times now Its disgusting and you are personaly disgusting ........... have you been drinking?

s*x with animals ............you need help.... I urge you to seek medical advice

loki, caroline. I dont know... lets take animals for example (no offence to any welsh farmers out there).. we all know it goes on... is that genetic? is it acceptable? could you still be a vegetarian and do it? (joke).

No.. you tell me whats genetic and whats not?

Respect

GIASI

The genetic angle for Homosexuality I beleive happens at conception

What other preferences are you talking about, specifics please - are you talking about weird s*xual practices- personal preference,

Rapists - control crime (maybe he/she were bought up in a closet )

Murderers - crime of passion, hate, greed

serial killers- this is were it gets good - usually motivated by some childhood trauma (living with gay parents could be one of the factor, as could being beaten eveyday for 10 years)

the list is endless

I dont think genetics has much to do with your clothing car choice, wether you like bondage or not ............do you?

What other "sexual preferences"? Could you please be more specific...?

I rather suspect I know where you are trying to take this, and am not sure I have the time to write all I want to say on this topic, but I would just like to point out that homosexuality, in and of itself, does not hurt anyone else.

You are entitled to your opinion, caroline, and I respect that, I just probably couldn't disagree with it more strongly.

As to what some "god" thinks about it, well, that's a non-issue AFAIAC because I personally am not religious. Whether the gnomes at the bottom of the garden think homosexuality is "right" or not holds about as much interest or relevance (to me).

I am intruiged by the "genetic" angle. Does it apply to all sexual preferences or just homosexuality? if genetics is applicable to other preferences would they also be acceptable? whats acceptable and whats not?

Respect

GIASI

Giasi

In answer to the original question, Im not in a closet

That fact had not escaped me, GIASI....

I hope you share your own view at some point... :)

I could go on and on about this subject, but wouldnt want to insult all our "gay freinds" and remind them of the damage some of them cause- I agree with Butterfly Its the genetic make up at birth

I will say again what people do in their own home is their own business is nothing to do with me, It makes my stomach turn to see grown men kissing (with tongues) in the street or in the restaraunt were I am trying to eat my dinner- Im paying to vomit- im not anorexic- I dont need to see it

as for marriage, no God ever said Adam and Adam did he ?

Marriage - come on guys who wants to see two grown men Kissing at the alter.

adoption - get real - no child wants to be bullied at school because his "parents" are gay, the damage this can cause in the forming years is enough to cause life long problems.

Its disgusting

Loki..You will see that at no time have i posted an opinion.... im just curious about peoples perceptions. i will plead the fifth until later. :)

Respect

GIASI

Respect

GIASI

LOL GIASI - I wondered when someone would raise that.

Naturally I would be hurt, and I may temporarily (and wrongly) resent them, but ultimately, if I truly love them, I want them to be happy, so I would accept it and move on.

And yes, caroline, even if it was a member of my own close family. I am unable to comprehend how people could NOT accept their family - in particular - for who they are.

I am curious - How would you react if your son came to you when he was 18 and told you he was gay?? What would you do?

Im sure if the member of your family that "outed" themselves was your spouse you wouldnt love them the same :)

Respect

GIASI

Butterfly...Why not adopt? if you truly believe "gayness" is nature not nurture like loki says then there is no reason to deny them adoption. On what grounds? because they walk funny?

Respect

GIASI

Im sure you wouldnt- a member of your close family ?

Giasi Im not really sure why you posted this topic, you surely have a sense of humour

Im sure you wouldnt- a member of your close family ?

Giasi Im not really sure why you posted this topic, you surely have a sense of humour

butterfly... a question if I may...

Couples where the male partner is sterile *could* elect to use a sperm donar in order to have a child. Do you agree with this practice?

Now, what if a female same sex couple wanted to undergo the same treatment? Would you agree with that ? Why/why not?

In neither case is the child a "natural" child of both of the parents... so what is the difference in your eyes, and why is that difference relevent?

I'm not trying to pacify. Sometimes things are not either black and white.

I do believe that gays are born gays. The fact that they are gays make them unable (by nature) to have children. I am against them to adopt.

If a member of my family was gay, I'd love them the same.

Actually, I probably should have put a lol or a smilie in there somewhere... reading it back, it (unintentionally) comes across a lot more strident than I usually am... :)

I guess it's just something I have no doubts about. :)

Cheers, all

Thank you loki. I respect that you certainly made your standpoint clear.

Respect

GIASI

I totally support ANYONE's right to "be" gay. That includes any member of my immediate or extended family, including non-existant children, any friend, any work colleague (including boss), anyone who serves me in a shop or fixes my car - anyone.

I am of the view that homosexuality is not a "choice" - I believe it is nature not nurture.

I believe that the characters (and basic situation eg have enough money to support a child) of the people who wish to adopt should be what is judged, NOT their sexuality. As an aside, I do not know much about adoption, but would be interested to know what sort of things disqualify people?

I think that being raised in home where the child's adoptive parents are in a homosexual relationship will certainly make the child think such a relationship is more acceptable - and I believe that is a good thing, ie more accepting of the differences between people. But I do not think that having homosexual parents will "make" an otherwise heterosexual person into a homosexual.

I hope that helps make my position clearer.

Loki? Do you support the right for your children to be gay? what about if one of your parents "came out of the closet"? How far does your support go?

Also, dont you think that a child in a same sex marriage will reinforce that homosexuality is "more normal" in the childs psyche and hence perpetuate it? is it ok to do this?

So it's the fact that "gays sleep around" that disqualifies them from adoption... right... so where is the check for different sex couples on whether they sleep around, before they can adopt??

Im sorry butterfly, with all due respect, i think youre trying to pacify everyone. i really think its a cut and dried issue. youre either for it or against it (homosexuality). Dont dilute it by saying "its ok, but....". its either all wrong or all right. If you agree homosexuality is a choice then you have to concede all other rights like marriage and children. you cant half heartedly concede a little bit to make it look like youre ok with it but hold back something to make it look like youre not ok with it.

You sound like a liberal conservative

Respect

GIASI

Is just not natural, Loki. I don't discriminate it, I just have my opinion in the gay friends that I have had. Most sleep around a lot, even when being in a long term relationship.

I don't see their lifestyle compatible with family.

I still cant get my head around the concept. You are ok with gay people or youre not. stop sitting on the fence. you cant say, its alright to be gay but not too gay.

Respect

GIASI

Wow.

Me - no problems at all, I support it totally.

Discrimination due to sexuality is what is disgusting.

butterfly - Why is the single act OK but the lifetime committment is not??

Edited to add: Seriously - the adoption issue??? THAT's why you are against it?? Jeez. Personally, I think most *heteros* should need a licence to breed/adopt...

what people do in the privacy of thier own home is noone elses business but marriage adoption ............its DISGUSTING

shouldnt be allowed, its not natural, its a joke

I'm ok with single men or women sleeping together. I'm not ok with them starting a family.

With marriage comes the right to adopt children.

I'm ok with single men or women sleeping together. I'm not ok with them starting a family.

With marriage comes the right to adopt children.

Speak for yourself, I never said I was ok with it

Its all a sin and people should have treatement- colt 45 sounds good

disgusting

why not... its just a contract. do u think its hypocrital that u r ok with homosexuality but not same sex marriage

Respect

GIASI

really disgusting

Its disgusting, very dusgusting

I'm against it...

Come on, I have no problem with two men or women getting it on together... But marriage??? Please...

ohoh.... the silence is ominous....

Respect

GIASI