The christian viel

ok good one alexa i think we hijacked this thread enough..lol

True Alexa its a good point to start with something that there is a demand for. Although from personal experience shopping here for me has been a nightmare as i dont wear abaya but the other alternative are shops which have clothes that arent suited for women who wear hijab, from what i see there are two extremes and there appears to be a lot of muslim expats that dont wear abayas nor sort sleeves, jeans etc...hence seems to be a gap in the market here. i guess you would have to research how many muslim expats are here that dont fit into each category before you proceed, and possibly market for them if you find there is a need./demand....  

Well Alexa if you ever do design some abayas then let me know and I'll be happy to buy them. It definately does make good business sense to start with something safe until you get to know the abaya trade a bit better though.  

I especially love coloured abayas myself. But the majority of "religious" muslims in the uk also prefer black, navy or grey.  I have just started a new trend in my community by wearing tie dyed abayas in pink and blue (quoting my evidence with it).  And to be honest it has been a smashing hit with the locals as well. They all tell me they prefer my abaya and khimar as it makes me seem more approachable then the blackies.

Anytime alexa....just let me know..

Ph....good website.....yes your right some are over the top...i guess its trying to find a medium....esp practical ones that arent boring....

Alexa, does it have to be black?? Why can't it be in many different and wonderful colours? I mean I think this would be a chance to show such a creative edge to islamic fashion that isn't tight and shows a womens body..

 I love the arabic jalabias that really play with design as well as modesty.

http://www.alyashmac.com/index1.htm

What do you think about the jalabias on this site??

For me some of it seems a bit too outlandish and impractical. At the same time some of the clothing on www.shukr.co.uk feel boring, less then average material and still impractical.

Alexa...black is popular here i guess amongst qataris i think....but not everyone wants black..i guess you will have to see where you want to market it. Im more than happy to help you any ideas or thought, i guess i can give you a perspective of what women in aus would like . Ive never seen so many women wear black abayas until i came here so i guess it depends on the market.

Let me know when you want to discuss this, anytime....

I guess you could also open a thread about this to get a perspective of what other women on Ql who wear hijab/abayas etc....

im more than happy to help..Just say when...

No worries Alexa....In the west what i find most muslim women are interested in but is lacking is sort of like a cross between the abaya and the way Indian women dress,the tops are to the knees, accompanied by pants but without the glitter and bold colours, more like conservative or light colours...

Anyway im sure you will do a good job......good luck with it if you do pursue it....Ill be your first customer.........

yes Pm. Alexa is full of surprises hey.. Would love to attend the fashion show, love to see what people come up with....thanks for the offer i will PM you PM(excuse the pun hehe)..thanks for that.......

Alexa..since youve been living in the middle east for so long and you are a fashion designer why dont you design some from a european perspective. I agree there are some nice abayas  here, but they all look like eachother, the only ones ive seen are either very bold in colours or black ones...maybe i havent seen much around but it would be nice to have a different range, im afraid im not a abaya person, i trip over my self all the time hence always looking for an alternative...

I wish i had your creativity to design, i think there is a market for that sort of stuff, where you can wear hijab without resorting to the traditional cultural stuff....

Out of Modesty

That is exactly not correct.

The woman are not required the veil to covered their heads in public, because biblicaly the woman's long hair represents already their covering and her glory in public.

Apostle Paul stated at the end of letter:

But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God."

There is more detail information about this @:

http://www.fpcr.org/blue_banner_articles/headcovr.htm

I remember when my gal forced me to buy Shela to match her school uniform

I said NO u r still kid infact i thought its burden on my wallet. Besides you must keep many colors. We argued on this issue for days, I even cursed her Islamic teacher why she has discussed Hijab so early in School. She was only girl wearing shela Odd one

Later she insisted that I buy Abaya, this time i screamed bcos i invested lot of money in her clothes. I bought beautiful clothes from all the destinations I visited not for me but for HER, I felt once she starts wearing Abaya she will have no interest in dressing properly, she might wear her tracks suit and cover it with abaya I have noticed some sisters how lazy they are.

Well pm I cover my own daughter in little abayas. And this is something she chooses to do.. She loves it.. and was so excited when I bought her own hijab because she wanted to dress like mommy and her khalas..

I mean where does one draw the line with teaching their children what they believe? Should we also stop our children from believing that the Prophet Mohammad SAW is a prophet of Allah???? Should we feed the children meat if we are vegatarians (even though the very thought disgusts us)

I think the key here is to just teach the children what we know. But give them enough autonomy so that whe will investigate and be able to make up their own minds when they get older. Which is certainly what I and many other muslims like myself have done.

I have to say that I also find your comment a of hijab as "sexualising" a child extremely worrying.  Its not like the parents are telling the kid to run around naked and not wear clothes at all because they are nudist and that is the way adam and eve were originally created.  Everyone has different perception of what makes male and female type clothing. I buy Jottum boys clothes for my son and dresses for my little girl from jottum! Does that western way of dressing mean I am "sexualising" my children?

good afternoon.... I appreciate muslim because they know some teaching in christian doctrine... If i ask a cristian about muslim what they know only is the name of the God "Allah" and the idea that they can marry more than 1...That's why i aprreciate muslim, they even care to tell me that, you should ask for holiday because its xmas. The qatari on the neighborhood even give us pressence and they wished me. On their Ramadan and eid i never remember wishing them......

I love being with muslims because they care about their neighbors.....Is this because of relegion or only personality????anyway...be proud to be a muslim shuabkazi

I could totally see this outfit work with one of those inventive head coverings padme wore in other parts of the film.. I think it is soooo pretty

1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11

Yes that is true.. although from a secular point of view sort of defeats the purpose of covering.

And actually so much colour and creativity could be brought into the islamic world where we can cover up and still suit our islamic requirements. It really gets me that religious women seem to limit themselves to black, black and more black.. thrown in with the occasional navy blue. I mean.. I would think these colours too hot to wear in the desert.. I'd much rather wear colours that complement my skin tone and feel comfortable to wear. As well as make me feel like a princess with the soft and luscious fabrics.. oh la la..

According to the correct opinion (one with the most evidence) is that a women can wear any colour of clothing. And that it can be beautiful as long as it meets the islamic criteria.. of not being see through, too tight, and worn to attract others or have a higher status from the people.

 and in fact, the person who has wealth is able to spend on good quality and beautiful clothing. According to a hadith of the Prophet Mohammad SAW.

Okay I missed that point until I reread Alexa's post again..

mmm yes.. it is a sad fact of life.. you are right!

Well i certainly agree to that Alexa, people do judge you by what you wear unfortunately, even the fashion conscious are judged by "whom they are wearing ie Versace or Calvin Klein etc, but it doesnt make it right does it, but this is how society is i guess....maybe women who wear hijab can get them custom made by Versace..lol..maybe they will fit in...actually i believe that does happen amongst people who can afford it...

I would still like to judge people by who they are and not what they wear....but such is life i guess...

But Alexa why does hijab have to be boring and plain?

As far as I'm aware we have some beautiful french fashion hijabs and abayas. MashAllah.  I think the website I love the best is http://www.arabesque-hc.com/  I'm not quite sure if thats accurate as its from memory. .

and another is al yemeshac. And it seems perfectly practical that a countries fashion could be based on the concept of covering up! And this could be very much beautiful for the girls who decide to don it.

 In fact, a very close friend who is a fashion designer is awe inspired by the clothing in india and arabia. Including the ancient designs that were available.

I find it all rather fascinating myself! And I loved the clothing that natalie portman war for her role as Padmé Amidala in Star wars.  As well as the earlier clothing which where recreated for roles in titanic.

oh and the old southern american belle hoop skirts.. Its all fantastic.

Very true PH..some people are very judgemental of others based on appearance alone..such a shame really..we could all really learn from eachother...

re niqab: Well i wear hijab(not niqab)... and some muslims frown upon that too....which doesnt really bother me but i am offended at how sometimes the women who do wear niqab are reffered as "tents" and or ninjas..and likewise for women who wear shorts skirts and dont cover up are called "sluts". We really shouldnt judge eachother based on what we wear but rather on their personality....

Shuaibkazi

Don't become offended by gypsy's little reply. Its frustrating for everyone on this site when everyone is constantly jumping down peoples throats and twisting whatever a person says all the time.

So I don't think you should feel offended by her sarcasm in order to relieve some frustration (as well as get a point across) -something I found quite canny :)

I think we everyone should take what every person says with a pinch of salt!

nadt... I find people so judgemental of others. And I don't mean judgemental in what becomes obvious. But in general people will judge another person based on how they look.. Its all so superficial.

And, unfortunately, the stereotypes about the hijab or veil is no exception to this rule.  Even our own muslims can look down on those women who wear the hijab as backwards and lacking in knowledge.

I find it very distasteful. But then as the french say Sal a Vie.. (spell check) Such is life.

For me personally, I never ever judge a muslim on the level of their faith based on a simple piece of cloth that covers their head.  And I have met more friends who I find pious and religious and have never worn hijab  in their lives.

 On the other hand, I feel it is extremely rude to constantly call a girl who wears a niqab as a "wahabbi" or "ignorant." Its our own choice to the way we choose to dress and what religion we choose to follow. And I do not find wearing the hijab oppressive at all. And if someone chooses to wear the niqab then I believe that is her choice in life and not another persons decision.  And I do tire of all the "modernists" who are constantly trying to push their own ideals off on another person. Just as I feel constantly harrassed by the mullahs who make the opinions of sheikhs as if they are Allah subhana wa ta'ala.

Alexa i agree some women are forced and have expressed it but its when a woman says i choose to wear it....that some people will not accept that as an answer and insist that a womans being oppressed..

I agree gyspy some nuns dont wear it but some still do...anyway the point for me is there seems to be too much emphasis on what a woman wears esp if its hijab....my point of view is not to argue about whos dress sense is more appropriate,  i dont care if you wear hijab,jeans,mini skirts etc..i will only judge the person by his behaviour and not the dress sense and i will not assume someone is oppressed because she chooses to cover their hair...or that she is liberated if she doesnt wear hijab...ie: dont judge a book by its cover..

I agree completely Nadt.  However it should be noted that most sects of nuns no longer cover their hair.

"When they say he could walk on water, I think of it like he could fly like a butterfly, sting like a bee. Literal people scare me, getting it wrong fundamentally, down at the church of 'Look it says right here see!" Ani Difranco

I was just reading about Christ being critiscized for working on the Sabbath.  lol.  

This actually makes me want to re read the Bible and try and seperate the apostles opinions from the actually philosophies of Jesus.  I don't think I really caught that stuff when I read it at 16.

"When they say he could walk on water, I think of it like he could fly like a butterfly, sting like a bee. Literal people scare me, getting it wrong fundamentally, down at the church of 'Look it says right here see!" Ani Difranco

Very well said Nadt! Couldn't agree with you more on that!

P.S. I love Ani Difranco's work. I think she is amazing! (although not always in agreement ;)

Why is it when a nun covers herself, its accepted because shes close to god, and when a muslim wears hijab shes been oppressed....most muslims wear hijab because they believe in what god has ordained....sure many muslim do this out of force from husband, society, fathers etc but why do the women who do it out of choice get criticised for it....To take off the hijab and wear whatever the fashion is doesnt mean i am more liberated, i just choose to dress differently to how others dress. I only started wearing hijab over the last seven years(by choice) and i was raised as a muslim, but was never forced....I do feel sorry for the women who are forced to wear it because if you dont believe in it, then you shouldnt wear it....

that sounds like a very interesting book gypsy. And I would say that my own reading on the jews comes out with the very same view that they are extremely rigid.

And that is something that I have also noticed about muslims and Islam. That they do tend to be very rigid in their points of view and following of certain laws. However, this is intrinsic within the very structure of the religion!

Whereas in the bible.. such rigidity was talked about by christ.. and I remember one passage where he was chastised for doing work on the sabbath. I believe he was healing an ill person (but can't remember) And he said something to the affect.. of which do you think God would appreciate more ... I.E. the oppression of the needy or sticking to the rules of the sabbath.

So in this way I found that Jesus used quite a bit of wisdom and showed that necessity outweighs laws.

And we do have this concept in Islam! Most definately.  

but yes.. overall I find Islam that muslims do appear rigid like the Jews in their religious practice. Although textually nearer to the christians in their love for God and wisdom that necessity outweighs the law in certain circumstances.

Del Amitri is pretty good.  I'm in to just about everything, but Ani strikes a cord with me. 

"When they say he could walk on water, I think of it like he could fly like a butterfly, sting like a bee. Literal people scare me, getting it wrong fundamentally, down at the church of 'Look it says right here see!" Ani Difranco

Havent heard her ever,

If ur into alternative give a listen to "Del Amitri"

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Gypsy my best friend in college was an atheist and a feminist.

Hated her guts but i guess we didnt need to be exactly alike to get along

Human race has a chance after all 

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She was raised Catholic by her father.  If you listen to her music it's quite apparent.

"When they say he could walk on water, I think of it like he could fly like a butterfly, sting like a bee. Literal people scare me, getting it wrong fundamentally, down at the church of 'Look it says right here see!" Ani Difranco

BIO: Ani DiFranco (IPA: ة‘-ni) (born Angela Marie Difranco on September 23, 1970) is a singer, guitarist, and songwriter. She is known as a prolific artist (having released at least one album every year since 1990, with the exception of 2000) with a devoted cult following, and is seen by many as a feminist icon. Biography Born in Buffalo, New York to an American Jewish mother and an Italian-American father, DiFranco, the daughter of two folk music loving parents, started playing Beatles' covers at local bars and busking with her guitar

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No worries Shua, I'm sure feminists don't care much for you either. 

PH.  I'm reading a book now that details life in Palestine during the time of Christ, it's a work of fiction mind, however the author portrays a very interesting picture of how Judaism at the time was in fact very similar to Islam now...if not more rigid.    So to me I see these laws of veiling, as a cultural notion of the people and the area, so it's not surprising that Paul, being born a Jew from Palestine, would support veiling. It was very much a part of the culture he grew up in.  However I dont' believe Christ would have called it a neccessity, or taught it as a method of subjugation for the woman, since it seems he believed men and women to be equal.

"When they say he could walk on water, I think of it like he could fly like a butterfly, sting like a bee. Literal people scare me, getting it wrong fundamentally, down at the church of 'Look it says right here see!" Ani Difranco

Gypsy i am sorry i might be talking about someone else then

well anyway i dont care for feminists much, they create more harm then good (The same vice versa also holds true)

I like cosmo's - HEHE!

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A person can be born a jew or even worse proclaim to be an athiest but at the end of the day it is only Allah who knows what is truly in that persons heart.

I see nothing wrong with gypsy stating her opinions. As she usually does not do so to offend another person. Or to argue. However, I have noticed quite a few muslims who argue needlessly with her on many of the subjects and causes her to become frustrated. AT least this is what I have personally seen.

And I could not say this about everyone on the website!

When I looked into messianic jews (jews who have believe in christ) they have a very different story to tell relating to eating pork and the veil. Accordingly, they felt that these were commandments in the religion that one should not eat of pork or disregard the veil. Although it was not held as strictly as the muslims hold such things.

I guess the question I have ... Is how does one interpret the bible?  Obviously, when I with my limited knowledge of the bible, look at the passage that says a women must veil to show respect to her husband my interpretation may not be accurate.

For me looking at his verse means that a hierarchy system is in fact in place in Christianity. Although one is not supposed to abuse the right of another (love what you love for yourself verse). It seems to clearly state that a man is head of his household and that a women should respect her husband. And that a way to show this respect is by covering her hair. 

To me that would seem a small price to pay in order to show respect to my husband. As the bigger price is having the stamina to treat him as I myself would like to be treated.

Now, I am sure I am interpretating this verse wrong from my personal point of view.  As it seems that many christians do in fact not believe in covering their head? Or do they??? It does seem all rather ambiguous!

Shua: Firstly, What's being Jewish got to do with anything?  Secondly she was born to an Italian Catholic family (her father's name is Dante for crying out loud) and thirdly she's a self proclaimed atheist. 

And none of those really describe my beliefs.  I believe there is a creator, but I believe organized religion and the so called "Holy Books" are a pile of bull patootie. 

"When they say he could walk on water, I think of it like he could fly like a butterfly, sting like a bee. Literal people scare me, getting it wrong fundamentally, down at the church of 'Look it says right here see!" Ani Difranco

By the way Retahnam I am a muslim

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Very informative  - Generation

 Thanx

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http://web2.airmail.net/~carlsch/MaterDei/Library/the_veil.htm

To those who still think that the veil is an obsolete custom, remember that: "Jesus Christ is the same, yesterday and today, yes, and forever" (Heb.13:8).

I believe in God

All his messengers and the last day

I dont ascribe any partners to him and do not feel the need to go to any mullah, priest or rabbi to get close to him

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"Only in Dreams never in reality"

gee...are you cristian or muslim???

Retahnam the basic difference is

Christianity

The holy ghost, God and Jesus are one and different at the same time

Islam

God is God the one and only almighty

Jesus is one of the greatest messengers of God

And the Holy Ghost is the Arch Angel Gabriel

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"Only in Dreams never in reality"

hi...your statement is very clear and straight...i like it....thanks a lot appreciated

Retahnam

If u can comprehend trinity follow christianity

if u can understand 1 God follow Islam

 Simple

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"Only in Dreams never in reality"

i want to have 2 religion if possible..cristian and muslim.....but its impossible....well, this is my big problem, why i need to deal with cristianity and islam...i don't know already ...im so confuse what to do... i read bible and i read koran....i believe the two....

Exactly skdkak

the point remains scarlett shouldnot link such nutjobs with religion

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whatr u talking abt irrYSA

i was talking about Ani di franco with gypsy

why did u lose ur cool

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Stick to the topic. U wrote ""Did u know there is a hindu in some corner of india who does it just for the heck of it""" This Hindu guy did and some still do so because his advances towards a girl were not encouraged by her. Whatz that to do with religion. Such crackpots are all over the world. some do it with acid, some by murder and some others by rape.

dont confuse urself

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Bible is definately being manipulated today...Have no illusions about it.

As for the Vatican I believe they control the church but they have absolutely no control of my beliefs, my intrepretation of the Bible. How many Christians know that Lucifer possibly had intercourse with Eve, Cain was leaning towards Lucifer(Satan) rather than God (so god was unhappy with him), and the linage of Cain is reffered in the Bible as the "Unholy linage of Cain". These you would not find in the Bible available in the Church.

How can one understand Satanism if the 1st link is missing! 

AND SO WHAT IS HE IS A JEW?!!!!!!

If you're looking for a problem, you're probably gonna find one.

In a survey, Unitarian Universalists in the United States were asked which provided term or set of terms best describe their belief. Many respondents chose more than one term to describe their beliefs. The top choices were:

Humanist - 54%

Agnostic - 33%

Earth-centered - 31%

Atheist - 18%

Buddhist - 16.5%

Christian - 13.1%

Pagan - 13.1%

Where do u fit in Gypsy

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Though now Ani is a UU propagationist

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Intertwining women and religion. And what about the modesty shown by men. So men can wear the westernised light shirt dark pants  whereas women (those veil creatures) cover themselves with loose clothes.

Gypsy Ani di franco is jew

i wudnt follow anything she says about christianity

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 Shuaibkazi, first of all, don't be so deffensive...

Second...plz, don't twist my words.

If you're looking for a problem, you're probably gonna find one.

Paul was a sexist prat.  Jesus never said any of that stuff, it was all Paul.

"When they say he could walk on water, I think of it like he could fly like a butterfly, sting like a bee. Literal people scare me, getting it wrong fundamentally, down at the church of 'Look it says right here see!" Ani Difranco

Irrysa by your standards the whole bible goes for a toss

the only thing to be followed are the ten commandments, the rest can be mended amended or just givenup

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when we made our First Confession and First Communion.  I also wore a veil when I joined in processions through the streets with various Church Guilds I belonged to.

Brides who marry in Church usually wear a veil too. 

Wearing a head covering to Church was what us gals did where I came from in England.    It sort of went by the way sometime around the late 60s I guess, although in many places around the UK women STILL wear a hat or a scarf to Church and definitely in the more Catholic countries around the world most women wouldn't go into a Church without covering her head.

Mind you, men probably wore a hat when they went to Church in those days.   Wearing your 'Sunday best' (clothes) was the norm many years ago.

I never really thought about WHY ! 

Its not related red

It just show that Quran talks about christian people like u who understand

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Sorry, I don't understand your verse in relationship to the veil. What is the relationship of this islamic verse for the Christians not wearing the veil? i don't get it? 

Scarlett ...FreeMasons do....they are fanatics....like the chosen people.

Not all of them do it in the nude (the lower rungs are not aware of these things) ....the top guys, the fanatics, the movers & the shakers. They even believe they are the protector of the Human Race (read a certain human Race).

It runs through the Knights Templar right up to Cain (son of Adam & Eve). Cain is said to be the 1st FreeMason. Bable (of Tower of Bable) was another freemason. A lot of these guys can be identified by their work, they want to create huge gigantic buildings (one is comming up in Dubai).

I club Fremasons, KnightTemplars, Scientilogist, Wicca, Satanism,Blackmagic all together. They are the branches of the same tree. Usually their intrests and goals are common.

Surah/Chapter 005 - Al-Mâ'idah. Verse 82.

Thou wilt find the most vehement of mankind in hostility to those who , believe (to be) the Jews and

the idolaters. And thou wilt find the nearest of them in affection to those who believe (to be) those

who say: Lo! We are CHRISTIANs. That is because there are among them priests and monks, and because they are not proud.

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Scarlett - LOL!!!!!!!!!

U make the acid incident sound so common

Did u know there is a hindu in some corner of india who does it just for the heck of it,

dont tell me he is a muslim also now! - LOL!

forced submission? - who where when?

ah ! dont bother really

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Shuaibkazi, laws and customs are different things.

I came to Qatar bcoz it is not Saudi and nobody can force me to cover my hair unless I and only I would like to do that. No matter what religion I am.

Many things from the Old Testament are not being practiced, and it is approved by the Church and people who "make the rules", e.g. in Vatican. Did you know that in the Old Testament it's written that Christians should not eat pork as well? ;o)  (you can go wild with this one if you want)

Things change, customs as well. Nobody in any civilized/modern country is cutting hands or stoning people anymore-even though it is written to do so in the holy books.  

The "laws", as you call them, in the Chsristian religion did not change. Our "laws", as the 10 Commandments, are still the same.

The customs change within years.

If you're looking for a problem, you're probably gonna find one.

Free Masons DO NOT perform their rituals in the nude..where in the heck did you get that notion??? And to even mention  them in the same sentence with Black Spiritualists is horrible..they are as far from that as possible!!!

Most folks are about as happy as they make up their minds to be. --Abraham Lincoln (1809 - 1865)

Your friend can wear his speedo to work if he likes..no one cares what's under his slacks...heck he could even be going commando and no  one would know. Your example is a bad one tho...choose one with a bit more relevance please.

As far as women choosing to wear the veil or not in some places ISN'T an option..unless they want acid thrown in their face or worse. Here in Qatar, it is an option.

Now what I was taught the Bible meant by the head covering in church was to show respect to God...You will still see some of the older Catholic churches or members doing that. Personally, I think as long as you go to church with the mindset of giving thanks to the Creator, and being modest in your heart, then the covering isn't necessary.

Just because something is a rule doesn't make it a good one...being forced to wear something doesn't make you a good Muslim, good Jew or a good Christian...I don't see women wearing the veil as a symbol of weakness, but in some cases it CAN be a sign of forced submission. Two totally different things. I think the veil and abaya are lovely garments..but like Irrysa said..some of them show more than the mini skirt or tight jeans...in those cases, perhaps it would have been better to WEAR the jeans and show less of your body...

Again..the abaya and veil are lovely on the women here, but still feel that if its their choice to wear them, then its great..if its NOT their choice to wear them, why force them to? Its not going to make them a better religious person.// 

Most folks are about as happy as they make up their minds to be. --Abraham Lincoln (1809 - 1865)

I hope that you understand that I was not attacking you. Just bringing the whole Apostolic letter to the public view and not some broken verse.Honestly i did enjoy your posting.  RespectfullyRed_Pope  

whose forcing u to do anything sir

if its anyone whose forcing even the muslim women to wear their garments in the  manner they do , its the womans own family and thats wrong according to me

but didnt ur parents ever force u to do what they thought was best for u

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Fact:

All Religion require Women to cover their Head. 

Paul's Passage says a woman should cover here head so as to show respect to her Husband and nowhere is it said that she shows respect to GOD!

( and the head of the woman is the man).

 Which would put the onus on the Husband to decide whether she is being disrespectful to him or not. 

The Missionaries have tired to enforce this practice along with segration of male and female. They still have male only and female only (convent) schools.

Another fact practiced is the removal of footware inside holy places:

It is to feel and allow the vibration into your body. Some religions require people who conduct the religious ceremony to have the least  clothing possible (Again to allow the vibration to pass in your body).  FreeMasons and people who practice the Black Spiritual practice conduct their ceremony in the nude.

Hold on please.  Early Christian churches adopted a lot of customs from other religions. The veil was one of them. The veil was used before Christianity and Islam in history. On those days early christianity had no bible and depend it on the apostles for guidance and or messengers carrying the Apostolic letters back and forth from city to city.  All the apostles did was to speak truthfully in behalf of Jesus teachings. Knowing this matter was a urgent and sensitive matter with cultural implications for many early converted "christians " In other words Paul all was doing getting the records straight to everyone and sorting the ugly and the bad habits.  The veil is optional or a choice, not a mandate. Is like wearing a hat in sunny day... is my choice.or A woman prefers umbrellas or a rain jacket with a hood on a rainy day. 

since the post didnt start as an attack but a defence but it has eventually ended up looking like one - i am sorry for that

but goes to show one thing as irrysa says

If you're looking for a problem, you're probably gonna find one.

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not being allowed to wear speedos at work and being forced to veil everywhere are not the same.  surely you see that?

why don't you give me an example of something your friend is forced to wear all the time against his will?

and please don't make any comparisons to what other religions did many years ago.  we're talking about today. 

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"Even a stopped clock gives the right time twice a day." Withnail & I

Christian women who go to church are themselves obedient to the rule in south america no one has to force them

the same goes for muslim women who go for prayers in the mosque,

no one ever forces the m

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is the crux of your defence that christians did it 2000 years ago, or even 40 years ago? is that it?

if what you say is true, then 40 years ago christian women had to do it in church, not everywhere.

can you provide an example of a place today where christians force this on women?

i'm not defending christians, just using them as an example since you brought it up. i find your comparision specious and can not really understand how you could be using one to defend the other.

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"Even a stopped clock gives the right time twice a day." Withnail & I

Irrysa talking about what some women want

every person is different but the laws remain the same dont they

if u want to live in a society follow the rules

For instance my friend likes to wear speedos to his workplace , but he cant

I guess its better for all of us that he cant -

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Have you ever wondered why Mary the mother of Jesus (peace be upon them both) is always depicted in Christian art with her hair covered? Did you know that until the 1960s, it was obligatory for Catholic women to cover their heads in church

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Shuaibkazi, my dear, living between Muslims for many years, I cannot say that women wearing veil are somewhat different than the ones who don't...for sure not weaker!

Nobody can forbid you to cover your hair or not.

Though I must say it comes with certain customs and places/countries/family traditions.

And yes, I know many women who would gladly remove it, but can't.

All in all-wouldn't judge any book by its cover. Nor lady by veil.

If you're looking for a problem, you're probably gonna find one.

Once again

"For man was not created for woman, but woman for man. This is why the woman ought to have a sign of authority over her head, because of the angels."

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to not don their modesty in public, as you put it?

in egypt they did not have the choice - there was no law forcing it, but if they did not they were ostracized from their community.

that is not being free.

i know that some or many women do choose to cover up, but not all them do it by choice. 

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"Even a stopped clock gives the right time twice a day." Withnail & I

Anyway what i am driving at is that muslim women have the right to don their modesty in public and do not limit the same to the mosque

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Irrysa, the problem is not that the christian woman wears a head covering or not or that they practice it outside the church,

the fact that you see the covered muslim woman as a weakened stance for women is the problem,

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 I don't think that showing your hair is a sign for not being modest.

Sweetie, I can show you plenty of ladies wearing abayas so tight that you can tell every part of her body and "covering" only a part of their hair. and i think it looks quite sexy, as a matter of fact. Looks pretty fine to me...modest? no, not really ;o)

There are plenty of Christian churches where ladies have to cover their hair. Many places where you cannot enter wearing uncovered arms or legs, too.

I agree that people go with the progress. Also simple things like fashion, customs and so on.

If it would be different, then why we are not wearing white powdered wigs and bath once a mont like it was few hundred years ago?

Besides, my dear, I truly believe that modesty does not fall in covering your hair. Because the veil can be easily taken off...but what you have inside and what you represent with yourself stays there, weather your hair is covered or not.    

If you're looking for a problem, you're probably gonna find one.

Thanks RP!

"There's nothing we can do to change the past, if it teaches  you a lesson profit from it then, forget it."

So what ur saying is that even the christian head covering is for modesty,

then why isnt the christian woman modest in church nowadays

and if she is, why is this modesty shown to god only in church and not out of the church also

since God is omnipresent

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Paul's Discourse on the Use of Head Coverings During Public Worship.An Exposition of 1 Corinthians 11:2-16By Richard BaconCopyright 1997 © First Presbyterian Church of RowlettSee a PDF file  of this article in The Blue Banner, v7#6.  Introduction   1 Corinthians 11:2-16: "Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you. But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head. But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered. For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels. Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord. For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God. Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered? Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him? But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering. But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God." It is important when we examine any passage of Scripture that we place it in the proper historical and textual situation; that is, in its proper context. We need to understand what has gone before the passage, and also what follows. As the saying goes, "a text without a context is a pretext."

From what i understand pope it still talks about the women being submissive to the male authority

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 Your interpretation is not completely accurate. Is easy to interpret those verses as you wish literally from a human point of view or religious goal. The real purpose and  meaning is another.For a better understanding visit: http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=802http://www.fpcr.org/blue_banner_articles/headcovr.htm

too much to read pope

cant u make it easy for me

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Be democratic - u can follow ur opinion and me mine

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for you i will make theory of evolution a simple thing.

Cultures are ever evolving and at this time also, there is a change in all the cultures. it is not noticed but it does happen. forget the evolution of Big bang.

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With all due respect

I think the part about progress

I dont see progress in being immodest,

But then finally modesty for women should be decided by them in this day and age

If they feel that wearing a mini or tight sari in ur countrys case is modest then so be it

or on the other hand wearing a Hijab and a garment which covers the whole body is modest then so be it

the women should decide - right?

By the way i dont really follow the theory of evolution - And it still remains a theory

Those people who believe that religions were invented to control the minds of the masses are themselves a victim to the unproved theory of Evolution

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Well, I do not want to defend or argue what is written for I cannot give detailed reply to whatz written in it but there are two things that can be seen in light of your post.

1. It sounds like women being playful toys for men. (No offences to my fellow christian buddies). I have studies in convent school and often visited churches. I have even read Bible.

2. For you Shuaibkazi: If christians have matured over the years as per the changing times. Remember theory of evolution. Cultures develop constantly. If we all get stuck to past, there would not be any development and progress in the world. Dont read in between the lines. What I am saying is very clear, The followers of Islam needs to change. All thatz followed is correct but there is no possibility (as is said by Islamic priests) of a change acceptance.

Please remove the unwanted portion of your post showing women as a playing tool for men folks.

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