Is this the end of Christian America?
Interesting, but looonnng, article from NewsWeek
http://www.newsweek.com/id/192583?GT1=43002
It was a small detail, a point of comparison buried in the fifth paragraph on the 17th page of a 24-page summary of the 2009 American Religious Identification Survey. But as R. Albert Mohler Jr.—president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, one of the largest on earth—read over the document after its release in March, he was struck by a single sentence. For a believer like Mohler—a starched, unflinchingly conservative Christian, steeped in the theology of his particular province of the faith, devoted to producing ministers who will preach the inerrancy of the Bible and the Gospel of Jesus Christ as the only means to eternal life—the central news of the survey was troubling enough: the number of Americans who claim no religious affiliation has nearly doubled since 1990, rising from 8 to 15 percent. Then came the point he could not get out of his mind: while the unaffiliated have historically been concentrated in the Pacific Northwest, the report said, "this pattern has now changed, and the Northeast emerged in 2008 as the new stronghold of the religiously unidentified." As Mohler saw it, the historic foundation of America's religious culture was cracking.
"That really hit me hard," he told me last week. "The Northwest was never as religious, never as congregationalized, as the Northeast, which was the foundation, the home base, of American religion. To lose New England struck me as momentous." Turning the report over in his mind, Mohler posted a despairing online column on the eve of Holy Week lamenting the decline—and, by implication, the imminent fall—of an America shaped and suffused by Christianity. "A remarkable culture-shift has taken place around us," Mohler wrote. "The most basic contours of American culture have been radically altered. The so-called Judeo-Christian consensus of the last millennium has given way to a post-modern, post-Christian, post-Western cultural crisis which threatens the very heart of our culture." When Mohler and I spoke in the days after he wrote this, he had grown even gloomier. "Clearly, there is a new narrative, a post-Christian narrative, that is animating large portions of this society," he said from his office on campus in Louisville, Ky.
Wow, in 20 years the number of non-religiously affiliated Americans has gone from 7 percent of the population to 15 percent. Chicken Little was right!
Mandi
on this very topic:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/30114573#30114573
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
LOL
Well as far as I've seen more MTV's at my time, I can't blame the Backstreet Boys in this one as their videos do not induce non-Christian culture nor sexual desires. LOL
"Everything in this book may be wrong." Illusions: The Adventures of The Reluctant Messiah by Richard Bach
I think today's world is still trying to find out what it's morals are. We're leaving behind religion and strutting out into new terroritory. It will take awhile to find the proper path and the answers, but at least now we are actively questioning and looking for the answers, rather then just following blindly.
what is moral in todays world though. I have friends who are teachers, parents complaining its up to schools to develop their kids, but when a teacher complains to the parents its 'how dare you tell me how to raise my kids'
Great minds think alike, but fools seldom differ. (English Proverb)
The article talks about Northwest in particular.. Which means that the people up there are beeing influenced by the southerners across the border...
-----------------
HE WHO DARES WINS
Religion should have no say in sex education in the schools. Sex education in the schools should be about physical and emotional health and safety, not what some guy 2000 years ago thought was right and wrong.
education and family oriented one!
"dgoodrebel will always be the rebellious good one"
I would agree with sex education but again following the conviction of the religious order!
"dgoodrebel will always be the rebellious good one"
for legitimate married couples only!
Or as the norm in America, for legitimate live-in couple only! 9meaning single partner only).
"dgoodrebel will always be the rebellious good one"
Yes, but Brit mentioned religious schools in developing countries. Anyway, right wing religious groups in the United States are trying to ban the teaching of sex ed in the classroom.
right?
"dgoodrebel will always be the rebellious good one"
If that's what you want, or what you're comfortable with Dmighty, yes that's what's taught. What's mostly taught is to not have sex unless you want to, generally it should be done with someone you love, and the emotional and physical dangers of promiscuity.
Brit was talking about religious education in developing countries which is predominantely organized by the Catholic Church. Also most the Protestant organizations that have missionary services and that would provide education in developing countries would be no better, they wouldn't teach sex education at all.
is that the norm of the day???????????
"dgoodrebel will always be the rebellious good one"
as it is perceived as the norms of the present day!
"dgoodrebel will always be the rebellious good one"
your eyes are focused on a certain religion. Go first and study the whole concept before making judgment about religion. When it comes to contraception and religion, do not generalize as if all people are Catholics! They are the only one against contraception!
"dgoodrebel will always be the rebellious good one"
Not sure what you mean Azam. Sex is a fact of life, education can promote the use of contraceptives and condoms, as well as how to prevent STDs, abstinence and fidelity should be taught as methods to prevent STDs, but they shouldn't be taught as the ONLY methods.
Yes, but they teach them religion and ignore the real things. They promote abstinence instead of contraception, they teach the women to obey their husbands, they teach creationism instead of evolution. Where is the help in that?
Religion can educate.. especially in developing countries with rural areas and lack of finance. It is the religious "schools" that are used to educate people..
It HAD a role to play in society, but I would argue that role is obsolete and can be replaced with education.
Well you can teach morals without religion.
Im not advocating religion is the answer, but something is needed.
Great minds think alike, but fools seldom differ. (English Proverb)
Brit, the thing is Religion has been teaching that for centuries, so far no cigar, and now that people are starting to see through the religions it will have even less of an effect.
The stuff is true about GWB and comments on god.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2005/10_october/06/bush.shtml
Nabil Shaath says: "President Bush said to all of us: 'I'm driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, "George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan." And I did, and then God would tell me, "George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq …" And I did. And now, again, I feel God's words coming to me, "Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East." And by God I'm gonna do it.'"
Back on topic, gypsy in the UK kids are taught about this, and the familes are often not poor, as they get social housing and many of the bills paid, they are also not tearaways bunking school all the time. For some reason they are consciously having unprotected sex as they know the state will pick up the pieces.
Great minds think alike, but fools seldom differ. (English Proverb)
LOL Geoffrey
Ayman
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
To be fair, I think George Bush used to get messages
from the Tooth Fairy and the Easter Bunny!
****************************************
I say what I like and I bloody well like what I say
god 'telling' george bush to invade Iraq...Hmmm
Religion can play a part also by teaching fidelity, respect, accountability etc.
I think they all can compiment each other.
I'm not saying the world is perfect and in regards to Octo-Mom, well lunatics have existed forever, even in morally religious society.
The problem as I see it now is that we are at a cross roads. In the case you mention of girls (I'm assuming you mean teenage girls) having kids I personally think this is due to lack of education, poverty and access to contraception.
The reason for the lack of education and contraception??? The religious right who keeps sex ed from being taught in schools and contraception being widely available because they don't want to "promote" sex, they'd rather have teen pregnancies.
Now, while I can't blame the poverty on the conservative/religious right, I can blame it on the cycle of poverty, which, because these girls have no access to education and contraception they have babies who they raise in poverty and who then have no access to education and contraception and the cycle continues world without end.
The answer? Contraception and education. Not religion.
Since even back in the day of "shame" there were still more then enough illegitimate children to go around, we've obviously learned the religion doesn't work.
In additon Gypsy in the UK we have girls fathering multiple babies from different guys, we also have from young teenagers to men fathering children and who they dont have any care for. They have no shame or responsibility.
Look at that women in america who had those octuplets, she was on state benefits and already had kids.
Following on from your clothing in France - the "simpy my dear - I dont give a Dam!' in Gone with the Wind barely made it past censors! Look where we are now.
Great minds think alike, but fools seldom differ. (English Proverb)
Fashion is fashion as well. In 17th century France it was haute couture for women to wear their dress cut BELOW their breasts with their nipples pierced with jewels, and then 50 years later they wore dresses buttoned to their chins and their hair covered. Styles change. Right now skin is in, but give another decade and it will be like the mid-90's with girls wearing oversized plaid shirts and baggy jeans.
lol Brit, must agree with Gypsy, people don't care about it as much as they used too, when we get used to it we no longer care if a girl shoes ankle or not
Ayman
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
Ah Youngster..
In my days, we used to dream of spying an ankle :)
Sorry I was a teen in the 1990's, so things haven't changed. But "norms of decency" change with or without Religious conviction, it was once deemed horrible for a woman in the West to show her ankles. Also, have those changes actually made things worse? I don't think so.
I think I have to agree with Roadtester here.
Without meaning to sound like a fuddy duddy. Look at the percieved "norms of decency" in general when we were in our teens and look at society now.
On the other side of the coin, Christianity has always been better as a minority religion in whatever culture or society it finds itself. Jesus described this function as a "lump of leaven" or "pinch of salt" - to be a small force in the world that acts as a transforming agent.
Mandi
I would say that's a gross overstatment Roadtester.
Mildy criminal behaviour is being seen as cool and fun happy slapping a granny and then uploading it to utube. It being cool to be getting absolutly paraletic drunk and or beaten some random person up. Before it was shameful if you 'coulnd't hold your drink' now it seen as cool.
Great minds think alike, but fools seldom differ. (English Proverb)
Great story, more people living freely and happily. :)
if you don't think it's a problem. Another State, sad story, indeed!
"dgoodrebel will always be the rebellious good one"
At least here in Qatar and the Middle East, the concept of "shame" is alive and well, if not thriving...
To me, shame is simply something that is useful in situations where there is no instrinsic locus of control/ethos guiding one's behavior.
It has a purpose, but how much better would it be if people did things because they were the right things to do, not simply because their family/friends/etc. would be ashamed of them if they found out?
"Most plain girls are virtuous because of the scarcity of opportunity to be otherwise."
-- Maya Angelou
What should we be ashamed of?
True brit - I also dont want to go to a non religious purely Politically Correct, completly human rights society, where you go to jail for assaulting a burglar etc.
Both systems have their pros and cons and its taking the best parts. The simple concept of 'shame' does not seem to exist in the modern world and is all the more worse for it.
Great minds think alike, but fools seldom differ. (English Proverb)
But the moral and ethical boundaries that we are moving away from are ones that we've proven to be outdated and opressing. I mean, if anything, we are moving more towards the idea that killing someone is bad and adultry hurts families, then we have anytime in the last millenia.
It discusses that in the article, it says many people thought the world was going to hell in the 60's and the 70's, but it didn't.
There are always two sides to each side..IMHO , moving away from so called "Christian values" can have a negative effect also, since many of the "moral / ethical boundaries" that existed before begin to disappear.
the problems is the conservatives always talk about 'domino effects' in the states. You allow the things you mention gypsy and they come up with scare stories as to what would happen next.
Every year kids go crazy and shoot up schools, but mention gun control and americans are "OMG they are destroying the constitution, next they will take away my freedom of speech" etc
Great minds think alike, but fools seldom differ. (English Proverb)
No of course not, but we're talking about Christians.
"Well and the fact of the matter is that people are finding it harder and harder to oppress people based on "Gods" orders, especially when there's no evidence that these "sins" really hurt people."
Couldn't agree more but it's not only christians who get oppressed by such "God" orders.
Ayman
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
I think the benefits outway the costs, for example gay marriage and acceptance of homosexuals, legalized abortion, teaching evolution in the classrooms, etc, are all going to be beneficial in the long run.
Excellent article..
I worry about the use of the term "post-Christian". Yes, people are being promised a "more tolerant" future, but at what costs to society.
The erosion of Christianity within the communities is due to many reasons including economic woes, disintegration of the extended family etc. It also has to do with the influx and acceptance of other faiths within mainstream America.
Gay marriage is no way a deadly human disease anymore then straight marriage is.
"(Way to go Vermont for allowing gay marriage)"
Yea way to go for more deadly human diseases :-D
Well and the fact of the matter is that people are finding it harder and harder to oppress people based on "Gods" orders, especially when there's no evidence that these "sins" really hurt people. (Way to go Vermont for allowing gay marriage).
there has just been too many abuses by the churches, wether its molesting choir boys, to imbezzling money, illegitamate children by priests, blocking stem cell research, ignoring the fossil record, intelligent design, abortion bombing, god 'telling' george bush to invade Iraq, etc
Great minds think alike, but fools seldom differ. (English Proverb)