Islam is not in need of us

Thanx for the clarification hashin, n I do agree that you have been answering my questions in earnest! To make things a bit more clearer I believe a person's faith is his own issue n I dont judge or analyse any one based on his faith.

(About hadiths I remember a recent write up by a syrian cleric that people who accept anything other than Quran as a source is denying the Truth that it is a complete book in itself and that constitutes blasphemy. Found that quite confusing I should say.)

One of the news items that spoke about the law is here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6153994.stm

This one quotes some of the laws that are there in some countries.

http://www.banglarislam.com/Articles/Sharia/shariaDynamics.pdf

How can you expect people to believe it is not a religious thing when the representatives of relegious authorities themselves have been seen supporting this practise, not condemning it? Even if it is not prescribed in the Holy scriptures as u say, if that is the practise, how can you blame an outsider if he thinks it is a part of that religion ?

".....In addition, evidentiary standards discriminate against women, whose testimony is valued at half that of men’s. According to Sharia, the only guaranteed way to obtain a rape conviction is if the accused confesses or there are four adult male witnesses to the act of penetration. Otherwise, the courts have no consistent standards of proof for rape. As a result, courts sometimes view a woman's allegations of rape as an admission of illicit sex, making sexual assault victims susceptible to prosecution themselves....."

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2008/saudiarabia0708/8.htm

Everytime I find the meaning of life, someone changes it!!

Plato36, the ayah

""If you do good, you do good for your ownselves, and if you do evil (you do it) against your ownselves." "

Does not refer to the "golden rule" (Do onto others .....) This ayah means that the good deeds that a person does is for his or her benefit. If I don't do good deeds, then the only one who suffers is me. My good deeds are a favor to none other than myself. This is what the ayah means and Allah knows best.

Ibrahim Fletcher

it sounded sarcastic and there are lot of smart alec's out here who try to slip a smart remark through in the name of curiosity... Maybe I was too quick in judging you and placing you in that category... but until that point, you have to agree I've been trying to answer your questions in earnest... and that is not an easy thing to do...

So to elaborate and and this also partly why your remark seemed sarcastic to me, Quran is not the only source of Shariah... the other sources are the hadiths based on the life of the prophet. So even if you can't find a verse from the Quran on a certain matter... you are stil likely to find it somewhere in the literature and through hadiths, you would be able to find your answer.

With regards to rape victims being punished for adultery, I have already shown you how difficult it is in Islam to accuse a woman of adultery, ie. you need four witnesses... but then if there are four witnesses giving a false testimony, what can anyone do? Its a human error, no point finding fault with the religion...

Man... you have to get down to personal judgements, dont you? Why is it that you are unable to focus on the topic and not on the man talkin abt it? Yeah I am no saint, but that doesnt change anything abt the topic. BTW what in hell makes you think you are in a position to judge me??

Whether i'm here for baseless allegations or sarcasm, is none of your bizness! n yeah...i have heard people not convicted that way, sure thats why i raised the issue!!I din dream it up, dude!! I have read about rape victims punished for adultery, thats why. Check out some HRW publications!! (I dont keep em indexed n stored to wave under ppl's noses at the drop of a hat, sorry!!)

And for ur kind info the question about wrong verse was genuine and not sarcastic. The verse mentioned adultery n we were talkin abt rape, so I asked was it covered in a different verse!!I asked coz I wanted to know.

If you can talk abt the topic, we can talk all you want, but if u wanna judge me,go ahead n say all u want abt me ,but dont xpect me to respond in kind coz i got better stuff to do!

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Everytime I find the meaning of life, someone changes it!!

have you ever heard of anyone not being convicted that way?

as for the rest of your post, its pretty obvious from your post you are not here to learn in a constructive manner but rather make baseless allegations so I shall leave it there...

(your 'is it a different verse' sarcasm is not lost on me)

my only regret is the time I wasted on you...

Hashin: True that it wont take us anywer, but ther are accounts of people who actually went down that road.

The verse you quoted is indeed quite nice but have never heard of any one being ever convicted that way...

Or maybe its a different verse that talks about rape? Anywyas, I guess things hav to be read in context and applied to suit the era we live in..

Everytime I find the meaning of life, someone changes it!!

it was just the truth..now up to u how u take....pls b mature and stop being like a kid(y ur using acs and all that foolish stuff)...that all wasnt given by west..know sumthing and then talk..pls dont use that 'f'word,it shows ur character and manners as well ur maturity and power of thinking..if u would say that to a kid that would b better all that nonsense y using cars...and all nonsense..no one is using free anything nor only the west contributes everything everyone has a part in it. I can say many things but i dont want to hurt here anyone...I respect everyone everones religion...and u too be open minded rather than being a kid....and talk on the context as im watching u cant cope with anything and u jump on silly things like an immature person....

there may have been a case where the verse may have been interpreted wrongly... but then... well... what can we do about people who have their own vested interests... they are just looking for any excuse... and religion becomes one of them...

Winn... this conflict of faith and religion and your case of a soldier in this conflict is meaningless...

A good man would just go to his superior officer and tell him, look, I love my country and all but this is against my faith, please relieve me of my duties...

You assert that his only option is to commit treachery to his motherland... not really... so lets not go down that road... its just long and tiresome and not going anywhere anytime soon...

Thanx for the answers, Hashin!! Had read about some instances of rape where the victim could not get justice coz of such a requirement ( can fwd u the links if you want...will take some time locatin em). Thats why I raised the question. IF the relegion doesnt say so, then it is clearly the individual authority's mistake.

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Everytime I find the meaning of life, someone changes it!!

source :

http://www.justjihad.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15

In what is perhaps the easiest way to demean Islam, western propagandists have often reiterated the myth that Islam requires a woman to produce 4 witnesses to prove that she has been raped, failing which she will be punished with adultery and lying.

To complete the insult, the lie has also been spiced up with the claim that these four witnesses have to be Muslim males.

This is an absolute myth that has been propagated systematically by those who would like to tarnish the reputation of Islam and its followers. Sadly, the myth has been well digested, even by Muslims who know very little about Islamic jurisprudence. This included the former Prime Minister of Malaysia who openly quoted it in a General Assembly meeting of his party.

The mythical ruling on 4 witnesses not only excruciates a victim who is need of protection and justice; it goes against simple common sense. How is it possible for 4 persons to witness a rape and do nothing about it, but yet would be expected to come forward and testify against the deed? The logic behind the alleged “law” borders on the hilarious. Think about it. Islam is the fastest growing religion with more than 1.2 billion followers worldwide. Can it be possible for nearly a quarter of humanity to simultaneously accept a religion that is bizarrely beguiled towards its women?

The verse in question is from the chapter of The Light in the Al-Quran:

"And those who accuse chaste women (of adultery) and then do not produce four witnesses — lash them with eighty lashes and do not accept from them testimony ever after. And those are the defiantly disobedient. Except for those who repent thereafter and reform, for indeed Allah is Forgiving and Merciful."

Chapter 24 (Surah An-Noor): Verse 4

If the verse is examined closely, it is clear that the ruling with regards to 4 witnesses applies only in the accusation of a woman in adultery. Not the other way round when a woman has been raped.

In fact, the verse above demonstrates very well the amount of protection that Islam offers to its women. Should a lady be accused of adultery, not one, but four witnesses have to testify against her. Failing which, the accuser will be implicated of slander and appropriately punished. This is in sharp contrast to western courts where the damaging testimony of just one witness is sufficient to close a case.

Interesting post.

I'll bbe replying to all opinions i could agree or disagree.

""If you do good, you do good for your ownselves, and if you do evil (you do it) against your ownselves." "

Isn't this the equivalent to : "Do up on others what you would like them to do to you" ?

"God created man superior to every Living thing,blessed him with thinking,taking decision and deciding the right and wrong,yet he is very weak...even animals have great rights in islam,they cant b abused a bit and must b well taken care of...then a human?he is invaluable,let him b poor,rich,black,white..God loves his creature more than 70 mothers."

Nice saying, i stated on previous posts that no matter what religion, race you are, He'll always love you.

Now, about the arab being the correct language and Qur'an being a beautifull book, anyone doubts that any religious book is always written in the authors mother language?

Anyone here knows the story of the Babel tower?

God, supposably to stop Humankind from building that Babel Tower that was supposed to reach God, he made everybody to speack a different language so they couldn't understand each others, so, why would he make religious books only understandable to the people who spoke aramaic, latin and arab?

He could have written it on an universal language.

"...if u say both r identical..then men and women should produce children...."

Policeofficer: What MD means is on theit civil rights, we all know that morfologically they are differents, and nowadays we also have women that are trainee polices and proctect the lifes of men, women and children.

Now you attack the way we treat women here?

Wasn't there a post here about Egyptian women, who are always using Abbayas were sexually harassed in a proportion of 4 out of 5, or eventually 3 out of four?

Or Egypt isn't some sort of Islamic republic?

You speak about how bad we are in the west, but you don't allow a woman to use what she wants just because men in Islam can't see the beautty on them and wants to hide that beautty....wait....just remembered, wasn't God who expelled Adam and Eve from paradise, because they hided their nudity from Him after eating the apple (the original sin), wasn't God/Allah ofended because "they decided to keep just for themselves their beautty and tried to hide it from Him"?

Of course i may agree that U.S. aren't an example of virtues, but no country is.

Hashin: Nice to see that you are getting more tolerant :)

Now regarding the question made by west girls to muslim and viceversa, both were taught in different ways, one that should hide their body only to their husband (around 500 years ago woman in the West were always fully covered, only in the middle of last century, woman started to use less clothes and looking sexy) and the other that enjoys that men look at her beautty and that make their husband proud when the couple goes out togetther and all the men may feal jealous, but the husband thinks," you like her but she's all mine ".

Only God Can Judge Me

الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي

I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer

أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ

Its not about allowing or prohibiting faith, its about a soldier in a critical situation/juncture going against the nation coz he feels that the country's enemies seem to him to stick more to his relegion.

Dont you feel that could be disastrous...??

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Everytime I find the meaning of life, someone changes it!!

the answer is...

YES a women's testimony is valid in a muslim court

and NO four witnesses are not required for a rape case to be accepted in a sharia court...

it does not mean that the laws of the state can never contradict, it means the law of the state should not prohibit the practise of one's faith... there is a difference...

I would be fine living in a country which bans for instance polygamy, my faith gives me the right, but I am personally fine not exercising that right

However, I would not be fine living in a country which say bans my wife from covering her hair... ie. it prohibits me from exercising my faith...

Nope...no one has ever accused me of innocence, hashin!...i have got too much of devil in me for that!! ;)

I was extending a point about gender equality ....coz if a justice system does things like what I asked,then it is plainly unfair and biased(in my view)!! I asked the question coz I was not sure whether it was actually supported by the relegion. Clear? :-)

Now can you can you answer that question, if u dont mind??

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Everytime I find the meaning of life, someone changes it!!

Well that means the laws of the state can never contradict those of the faith? Think its possible? In a multi-ethnic/multi-relegious country?

and live with a risk that you cannot take a decision against a radical group coz that the group lays claim to a relegious righteousness that calls for a response by fellow believers(which might appeal to soldiers from that faith)??

I hope the recruiters would have enough sense to identify and keep away people who would falter in such situations and go against the nation!!

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Everytime I find the meaning of life, someone changes it!!

where are we going here Winn?

what is the point of this excercise?

I guess yours too is innocent curiosity?

not at all unwise to hire muslim soldiers...

what is unwise is for nations to force muslims to do something which is against their faith

what would be unwise is to have muslim soldiers and then put them in a situation which would force them to choose between their faith and the state...

Is a woman's testimony valid in a sharia court? Also, is there a requirement that there should be four male witnesses for a rape case to be accepted in sharia court?

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Everytime I find the meaning of life, someone changes it!!

Hashin: abt choosing faith over nation, should the defence forces of the countries where Islam is not a main relegion employ muslim soldiers in that case?? Would that be wise?

As for me, if I have to choose between my nation and faith, Nation it is, any day!! Relegion has only given me guidelines, my nation has given me much more.

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Everytime I find the meaning of life, someone changes it!!

i prefer calling you magicdragon or just dragon or.... drag...

thanks, hashin, you can call me dumb dragon from now on.

But how does it matter if its not the same way?

as long as she can...

Sûrah Al-Baqarah 2: 229

'And if you fear that the two (i.e. husband and wife) may not be able to keep the limits ordered by Allah, there is no blame on either of them if she redeems herself (from the marriage tie)'

Yes or no?

neither does it apply on police... because he does not agree with you on that premise

Just a "yes" or "No", hashin: Can a Muslim wife divorce a Muslim husband in the same way that he can? Yes, or no?

chosing faith over the State does not necessarily mean breaking the law... it can also mean something known as migration... you know...

People often mistake progress in women's rights and equate it with equality to men...

I've always seen people from the West asking veiled women why they wear a veil, and its almost implied as if they are compelled to wear it. Agreed, there might be a few women who feel they are compelled but this is not always the case... Actually Islam doesn't force anyone to wear a hijab but most women wear it on their accord and enjoy the security and convenience it provides

Now how would a lady wearing a mini-skirt in New York feel if I were to ask her why they are wearing a mini skirt and if I implied that they were compelled to wear it...

Quiet frankly, women are under pressure in say New York to be of a certain weight, to look a certain way and to wear a certain kind of dress, the peer pressure is tremendous... ask any teenage girl in school and she will tell you... is not that a kind of oppression too?

The counterargument is only flawed if somebody believes what you believe, hashin. Since I don't believe that everything is the creation of God, it doesn't apply to me.

it's ok, hashin, he'll spend his time in prison then.

your counter argument is flawed...

that is a basic difference between you and a muslim... when a conflict arises between one's State and one's faith and a choice needs to be made, a true Muslim would choose in favour of his faith ie. Islam, not his State...

It wasn't you, hashin, who said the West is bad, it was policeofficer.

I'm not talking about me, PM. There are numerous Muslims in Germany who experience this conflict every day.

As much as you make it seem that every modern convenience is an invention of the West, I have no qualms in using any of these because I view this whole Universe as a creation of the Lord

Let me just add one final argument, cbs, if a husband beats his (disobedient) wife for whatever reason in Germany, she can take him to court and he will go to jail for violating a basic Human Right. Therefore it is basically impossible that I as a German can accept the laws of Islam. They do contradict with our constitution!

I think policeofficer has to chill after his hateful tirade on the West. I am fine, cbs.

clearblue, here is the original translation. It uses "excel" instead of superior. (Which is as bad)

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=DIV0&byte=114839

use the one that pleases you, clearbluesky. All the others are wrong. And who is Abdulla Ali and who is Mohammed Shakir, anyway?

Yes, policeofficer, you're absolutely right. Shame on the West. Why the hell do you drive a car? It's a fu*king Western invention. WTF do you use an AC? It's a fu*king Western invention. You are ruining your pure life with these evil devices!

i was born a rebel... lol

can u throw ur 100 riyals?on the street,,women are faar more precious,by the way what has western civilization given to a women?largest number of rape cases?so called modernity in america what r they doing,degrading the women in the name of uplifting them in the name of art and behind colours,,,its nothing but exploitation of a body,degradtion of honour,and deprivation of a soul,they have made women mistresses,concubine,society butterflies hidden behind colourful screen of art and culture.We dont want to sell our daughters and mothers...In a famous bmw ad a women in bikini poses in front of a car and ad says "Test drive her now"whom the girl or car?What r u doing in name of upliftment selling ur daughters and mothers we dont want to do it...America todays most advanced country is fastest muslim growing popoulation out of whcih two-third are women,if islam degrades women then y american women accpeting islam?islam gives security to women,uplifts them,which wont go down the throat to those making money from them,beauty contests...selling cosmetics,,make billions of dollars from these contests.Men too should hide themselves and lower the gaze before women!If a woman wants and not comfortable she can anytime divorce her husband..women can go too far,work contribute to the world,inherit property .islam gives her every right.And what our prophet sws said paradise lies in feet of mothers,biggest status to a woman!!Once a man came to prophet sws and said whom should i be most dutiful and obey..the prophet sws said ur mother!then he asked who,he said ur mother,he asked then who again prophet sws replied ur mother...again he asked ,then the reply was ur father...here the gold,silver and bronze medal goes to woman and last consloation prize to man...how big is a status of woman is islam!

mjamille, I don't like "obedient" women at all. To hell with them. I want an equal "Partner".

Mohammed Habib Shakir, Al Azhar University, Cairo

so i am not, MD.... what u gonna do?

Again, you can believe what you want, PM. This is not my translation. I cannot translate Arabic into English. But I understand very well that you cannot clear that inequality of men and women.

mjamille, don't you know that I am superior to you?

mjamille, you are not obedient. Shame on you!

i wonder if that is still true nowadays...

"Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has made one superior to the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them; but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all)." (4:34)

Again, I can only use this rotten translation.

But, of course, my translation is wrong, I know.

Verse 4:34, clearbluesky

PM, the statement says: God created man superior to woman. How do you get this out of the world?

You know they are not equal, policeofficer. Woman must hide their beauty, men don't. Women were made to have children and keep the house, you must be joking. Men can say "talaq", women cannot. If a man sees the Ramadan moon it counts, one woman is not enough. Equal??

C u MD!

Explain that to mjamille, she asked the question, hashin. Tell her!

just imagine the same amount of rice and salt ur putting to make a dish,impossible.....its just like 2 students have scored 90 marks...so both r equal but the questions answered by the student "A" are not answered bystudent"B"....what u get both scored 90 but student "B"answered other question....here both r equal not identical..so thats the case in man and woman..each has their limits and duties...Man has made to guard woman and take care of family...if u say both r identical..then men and women should produce children....y only women?when a thief comes in a house why the husband goes to defend and fight,not wife?thats the point,women r made to look after house hold,take care of children and chersih them so they become best citizens...but both r equal and have equal rights..

Innocent curiosity? are you kidding me.

Poverty is not for the sake of hardship. No, it is there because nothing exists but God. Poverty unlocks the door -- what a blessed key!

- Jalaluddin al-Rumi

first magicdragon, you had a problem with the language, now thats been sorted you move on to another one... but I guess this is just innocent curiosity...

About this men and women thing... I guess you are a big proponent for women's rights... you know the brand where the women protest bare chested cos they believe they have equal rights as men...

You see where that argument falls on its face? Men and women are not quiet the same are they? they are different...

Ask policeofficer. Let him explain to you how the correct meaning is. The English (false) translation says: God created man superior to woman. But policeofficer will probably know better.

why is that MD?

men and women equal? Never! (Sura an-nisa, oh, sh*t, the translation I have is not right).

i feel pity on those people who dont understand the value of a human being...how prcious he is ,let him be from any caste,any creed,religion...first he is a human i wonder how magic dragon speaks arabic and he has in trouble goes to any officer here,saying his trouble,then any officer treats him what awful arabic he speaks lets not listen him(god forbid that time never comes here)....God created man superior to every Living thing,blessed him with thinking,taking decision and deciding the right and wrong,yet he is very weak...even animals have great rights in islam,they cant b abused a bit and must b well taken care of...then a human?he is invaluable,let him b poor,rich,black,white..God loves his creature more than 70 mothers.

I am not an Arab nor have I mastered the Arabic language...

hmm, and so it goes.... "chosen few"? why cant we just all be equals....

but your statement that only an Arab can fully understand is wrong though...

Not just Arabs, anyone who learns the Arabic language can get a better understanding...

There are many religious scholars who are very knoledgeable on the Quran across the world who are not Arabs...

I don't mind if you're a fan of your language, hashin. It must be rich and beautiful one for someone who was born into it. You are the "chosen" few. Why don't you leave the others alone?

atleast you didn't say sex which is the other universal language...

although I get your intent, I don't think any language which is not a spoken tongue such as mathematics can have the same vibrancy as a language such as Arabic...

you picked that fine thought, hashin. But that only means that only an Arab can fully understand the Arabic version of the Qur'an. And that's 300 million people.

I'll leave that up to you, PM. But we are not talking about Qataris here. So why do you bring it up? Are you bored?

thank you for highlighting that the American movies were modified to suit German values... ie. the message itself was tampered with to suit the palate of the audience...

See divine revelations don't work that way... it has to be the same message to everyone... therefore it has to be in one language and it has to withstand the test of time... unlike say for instance English... widely understood... yes... but rapidly evolving... not so effective if you trying to read the same book say a 1000 years earlier or a 1000 years from now...

simple, hashin: mathematics!

read, recite, proclaim are three different things to me. So I have a choice, right?

oh,.. thanks MD...

There is no language that is spoken by all... so any language is as good as the other in this regard... but Arabic has the added advantage of having withstood the test of time and having survived over the years in its original form... So tell me magicdragon... if you wanted to give a message to all of humanity, one that would withstand the test of time and still maintain its sanctity, what language would you chose?

its general message

not for a chosen people

an antartican and get in touch with u...Be Happy:)

hashin, I worked in the Mass Communication business. The movies that came from America were synchronized to comply with the German values and understandings. Sometimes the characters got a completely new personality.

thank you realsomeone may b ur right

He speaks English with an awful Indian accent, mj.

If you don't want to hear it... I can't help you... but if you do... then let me explain to you

Just because a transalation of the Quran in another language is not complete, it does not mean that the transalation is worthless...

Its like watching a nice movie with a voice over, you can follow the story and stuff but its not quiet the real thing... doesn't make the dubbed version useless... just means the dubbed version is not as good...

iam sure eevry translation meets the original,in what way can you say i deosnt meet the original...for eg, 'iqra' word in arabic means 'read','recite' and 'proclaim'..the verse is iqra bismi rabbikal lazi khalaq...so translation may be read,or recite or proclaim in the name of ur lord all three are 100%correct.

too bad i cant hear what he's saying, not that i will be able to understand it either...

"I don't want to listen to guys with this kind of dress!" There you go PoliceOfficer you definitely need to stay sometime on QL.

Poverty is not for the sake of hardship. No, it is there because nothing exists but God. Poverty unlocks the door -- what a blessed key!

- Jalaluddin al-Rumi

I checked the video, Policeofficer. I don't want to listen to guys with this kind of dress!

thank u for the website

Policeofficer, thank you for your advice. You are just enforcing what I tried to say: there is no adequate translation of the Qur'an into any other language. It is meant for the Arabic speaking people (i.e. 300 million). Every translation does not meet the original. Basically, every translation is worthless. There is only one way: learn Arabic. However, as a non-Arab you will, of course, never be able to learn Arabic to the depth that is necessary to fully understand the Qur'an. The Arabs are the "chosen" people. Sounds the same to me like the Jews claim it.

Beauty, eloquence, melody and Arabic are not words that I would use in the same sentence.

ask them

coz i didnt read any transilation for the holy quran

so i dont know its bad or good

http://www.jannah.org/qurantrans/

Arabic is a very deep,language..1 word of it has 3 to 4 meanings...its pure as ALLAH has taken responsibilty to protect it,now after 1400 years its same as it was revealed,not even a single change...its meanings r very deep,its beauty,eloquency and melody moves one to tears..,yes the translations are correct but the scripture is the One and only arabic quran,translations may vary slightly as arabic is a very deep language ...i request u to check this video once so u r out of whole confusion.check it wholly.

MD the Quran is translated in all languages, secondly i can read and write arabic.

what is important is that you should read the Quran in arabic but you can understand in your language.

Poverty is not for the sake of hardship. No, it is there because nothing exists but God. Poverty unlocks the door -- what a blessed key!

- Jalaluddin al-Rumi

I still don't get it, Realsomeone. If you don't speak a language how can you understand it?

abohmaid, how do these then "know" what is written in the book?

I do it as around 10 million of Somalis do , a very small amount of our population speaks arabic and majority can read write the Quran.

its not as hard as you maybe imagining. and i know many western Muslims who are same like me.

Poverty is not for the sake of hardship. No, it is there because nothing exists but God. Poverty unlocks the door -- what a blessed key!

- Jalaluddin al-Rumi

there is 300 million people speaking Arabic

but there is more than 1.5 billion muslimes

Policeofficer, I repeatedly get reminded by Muslims that words of the Qur'an have no counterpart in the English language. What to do?

You didn't want to be charmed, that's why you're lost now, clearbluesky!

How do you do that? Realsomeone?

I read it in Arabic and understand it in my language (Somali).

Poverty is not for the sake of hardship. No, it is there because nothing exists but God. Poverty unlocks the door -- what a blessed key!

- Jalaluddin al-Rumi

So you read and recite the Qur'an without understanding it, realsomeone? I am always told by Muslims that only the Arabic version is the correct one. What ever I come up with, if translated, they say it's wrong.

Like I said, if someone can advise how a religion will proliferate and sustain itself without people, I'll consider converting to Islam. Lol.

if a french doctor finds a cure for disease so will the technique used just for saving french and let others die?other doctors can translate his technique in their own language and learn or learn the french language and understand the technique,helping other people too...just check the video i posted u will get a better understanding and picture.

So was english as dominant that time as its today? secondly i am not arab nor do i speak arabic and I am Muslim and understand the Islam just like arabs and remember the majority of Muslims arent arabs.

Poverty is not for the sake of hardship. No, it is there because nothing exists but God. Poverty unlocks the door -- what a blessed key!

- Jalaluddin al-Rumi

hashin, realsomeone said, for all people. But there are only 300 million people speaking Arabic. So another 6.2 billion people are left out. That's all.

God sent his revelation and messengers to the most backward and ignorant people in their times in their language...the torah was sent in ancient hebrew so their people could understand,

and eid mubarak to all

Are you implying that all religious scriptures should only be revealed in.... English?

I guess the call is for humility... the humility that comes to those with real eeman, such that you can see it on their faces or make out from their font sizes (in this case)... ;-)

realsomeone, wtf is the "message" in Arabic if it is meant to "all people"?

Winn Islam started with one man and humans flooded to the message because they understood if they do or dont it doesnt matter to Allah because he sent his message and that is what is important so that you wont say the day of judgement "i didnt got the message" simple.

and above all, Allah sent his message for mercy all times to all people.

Poverty is not for the sake of hardship. No, it is there because nothing exists but God. Poverty unlocks the door -- what a blessed key!

- Jalaluddin al-Rumi

That's your fault now, clearbluesky! Realsomeone is getting serious.

Err...realsome, what is that supposed to mean? That islam doesnt need humans? then what does it need?(according to you)

At the end of our life our questions are simple: Did I live fully? Did I love well?

I am sure any Muslim who understands Islam knows that Islam nor Allah needs humans.

Poverty is not for the sake of hardship. No, it is there because nothing exists but God. Poverty unlocks the door -- what a blessed key!

- Jalaluddin al-Rumi

I also try to avoid it, clearbluesky.

afraid of magic, little girl?

this could be applied to ANY religion...its the same basis and meaning...

Grant me the senility to forget the people I never liked,the good fortune to run into the ones I do,and the eyesight to tell the difference.

You shouldn't reply if you feel assaulted, clearbluesky.

your "o" looks lovely, clearbluesky.

I think you got that completely wrong, SN. I am "flirting" with clearbluesky.

To a religious rant and rave no doubt....

Where to, SN?

Oh no here we go again......

Hi, clearbluesky. No clouds today. Good.

"If all the Muslims left Islam today, it would not decrease Allah in anyway, shape, or form."

I partially disagree with this statement. Just like any denomination, if everyone in the religion leaves, the religion ceases to exist. People need the religion and the religion needs people.

If everyone left the religion and Allah wished for the religion to continue, a new prophet would be required to re-start everything and re-issue the religion, but then this religion, by definition, would not be the same as the aforementioned and would require a new description.

However, your original statement is founded upon an absolution which will never take place anyway. Feel free to advise how a religion will proliferate and sustain itself without people.

agreed, agreed, agreed....

badluck, why are you angry? (Caps Lock!)

I 100 AGREE WITH U BUT U CAN JUST BLAME MUSLIMS LIKE THIS