Religious Question

ROTFLMAO!!

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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

Shamiri, you said:

"I don't know how much more obvious I can make it, butI will state it again:

Yeah, it is from ethical atheist, so?"

From this answer I understand that the above is not your writing, and you are using others "writings" without referring to them. This is called plagiarism by all means. And you are stating it proudly too. You were here playing superman god, but prooved to be something else, I won't name. Bye

Existence is a heavy burden, only high spirited ones can bear it. 

I read through this post and got bored on the way but I couldnt understand how evolution can solve anything or as a matter of fact logic itself there is still a lot of void.

It seems its a waste of time to think only 1 thing and milk it how it has been done here!

I urge all interested to google a short story by Khalil Gibran called "SATAN".

Should put this one to bed.

You say: "Yeah, its from ethical atheist, so?"

Do you think its the answer to that simple and direct question of mine?

Yeah.

In case you did not know, Yeah is an acceptable term for yes in english.

How can I proceed with an argument while very ordinary and simple principles are overrun? I am still here for the argument. I am not perfect. I may get benifit out of it, but first things first.

See above statement.

Is it your own writing or you quot somebody else?

I still want an obvioius answer, pleaze.

I don't know how much more obvious I can make it, butI will state it again:

Yeah, it is from ethical atheist, so?

yeah (y, y, y)

adv. Informal

Yes.

[Variant of yea.]

ohhh by the way, that comes from just in case you are bothered by the copy.

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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

I asked you a simple and straight question, but you are evading answering frankly.

You say: "Yeah, its from ethical atheist, so?"

Do you think its the answer to that simple and direct question of mine?

How can I proceed with an argument while very ordinary and simple principles are overrun? I am still here for the argument. I am not perfect. I may get benifit out of it, but first things first.

Is it your own writing or you quot somebody else?

I still want an obvioius answer, please.

I also invite other QLers to participate and enrich this debate or dicussion.

Existence is a heavy burden, only high spirited ones can bear it. 

Yeah, it is from ethical atheist, so? Would it have been any more valid if I typed it out and changed the words?

Now, is this the best argument you can come up with?

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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

What do you mean by "yeah"?

Is this passage originally written by you or you just took it from the above link?

I just want you to be clear and precise. There is no problem if they are your writings, excetp if you had just mentioned that you do copy and past.

The discussion goes on, its healthy.

Existence is a heavy burden, only high spirited ones can bear it. 

Lol ... for ethical reasons then:

All my thought processes are the sum total of all my experiences and everything I have ever read.

So now ... what was your point?

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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

Yeah, so? And your point is?

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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

Shamiri,

Is the following your writing? It was written in this link in the second post. http://www.ethicalatheist.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9714&sid=5be9b3454484b2bfcd474c088245a515

The link has a post which goes like this:

Quot " Seti

Joined: 22 Jun 2004

Posts: 4902

Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 12:07 pm Post subject:

-----------------------------------------

I think it has a number of purposes - a slightly different use of the term "god of the gaps." On a personal level it can help you feel you have an edge, someone to improve your chances in a scary world. It can reduce the sense that the world is an unjust place by suggesting that it's all part of god's "plan" and anyway it will be put right in eternity, and of course it saves having to face up to the stark reality of death - of self and of loved ones - by putting in place the illusion that you and they will meet again "in a better place."

On a social level, it can be a uniting force - at least so long as everyone in your group beleives the same things. If one individual can't go along with it, it can be cruelly isolating - and if a large number can't go along with it, it can become devisive, ulitmately leading to wars to establish who is top god. As the opium of the masses is instructs the poor and exploited classes to be content with their lot and not challenge the wealthy and priveledged. And ulitmately, it is a source of political power, as Machiavelli knew well.

Given all that, it's little wonder that it's proving so difficult to eradicate. " End of quot

Well even if it was your writing you had better mentioned that you are quoting form your old writings, for ethical reasons. If it is not your writing, and you are not mentioning the source or even putting quotation marks, its pure plagiarism, which is unethical too.

Existence is a heavy burden, only high spirited ones can bear it. 

I admit you win the argument shamiri, but I did present the logic in Isalm. You need accepting mind to appreciate. I like logic too as you do. I have been told since childhood that Quran is the word of God, but wondered many a time how it could be unfair to some. Hence I searched the Quran for reason and presented it here.

defending religion? which religion? I doubt even muslims here consider me a true muslim. I have my own way of looking at religion and spiritualism. hence adding my 2cents...

Thanks

Shamiri to you be your way and to me mine.

Without evil my God could not exist !!!!

I was raised being taught a certain way, but my parents allowed me the room to question and try other religions or no religion at all...I made my own mind up.

I also did the same with my kids...in fact, the eldest told me one day(he was 16 at the time) that he didn't believe in God at all...then a month later told me he decided he did, but not that Jesus is the son of God...that is his choice and I never berated him or tried to change his mind...

Grant me the senility to forget the people I never liked,the good fortune to run into the ones I do,and the eyesight to tell the difference.

Pity again! you still look for logic in faith!!

I am not looking for logic in faith. I HAVE faith, and I HAVE logic. I am looking for logic in religion.

HUGE difference. And .... there is no logic in it.

I tried to defend faith not answer your questions shamiri, just review wht i said.

No, you are defending RELIGION not faith.

No need to reply, your answer will be the same as before ... and my response will be the same as before.

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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

shmiri,

"But he never proclaimed himself. PEOPLE proclaimed him."

Pity again! you still look for logic in faith!!

you don't get answer asking a dozen people here why they believe in God, you need to ask millions!!!

Have faith first then use logic, you will be cared among believing community.

"Oh, but you DID try."

I tried to defend faith not answer your questions shamiri, just review wht i said.

"As do all of us, I hope."

So why quarrel?

God, as He proclaims He is, has the right to demand belief in Him.

But he never proclaimed himself. PEOPLE proclaimed him.

As for the logic that goes into answering your questions, I never attempted to answer them as I don't want to break my head doing so.

Oh, but you DID try.

I am just interested in leading a life that doesn't seek to harm myself or others...

As do all of us, I hope.

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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

Sigh ....

My dear friend mayankhob,

You try to discredit logic (and by this I mean formal logic, not your wishy washy idea of what you would LIKE logic to be) by using what you call "religion logic".

Please tell me where I can get a definitin of this "religion logic".

In your 1st post you say: Religion is a matter of beliefe not reasoning. Abstract reasoning without ethics will lead to no where, (Ethics=Religion).

I have reached it after many years of study and reasoning. I don't reject reasoning as a principle, but we have to stick to rules. These rules are ethics, which shape our personality and behaviour. Even an atheist believes, he believes in Atheism. So he has some sort of Ethics. All ends up in the Supreme Power again. In this case Shamiri believes in Evelotion. Its ok, this is his (Religion), even if he dose not call it so.

You never mentioned logic or "religion logic" at all. In fact you say religion is a matter of beliefe (sic), not reasoning. Reasoning and logic are two very closely related and interlinked disciplines. Thus bringing up something called "religion logic" is a very poor effort on your part. As far as I know, the Quran never even mentions logic, nevermind "religion logic". Also see the end of this post regarding ethics and religion.

"Oh, I never said I didn't respect them. But just because I respect them doesn't mean I discard all logic and believe their story."

I never said or implied that you said that. Prove it if you are reading posts carefully. Come on pal you are confusing things now.

And I never implied you did. Who is confusing what?

"There is also a need filled by stories like Spiderman, Aesop's Tales etc. But just because they fill a need does not make them true."

So you agree that religion fills a gap.

1. Yes, it fills a gap. On a personal level it can help you feel you have an edge, someone to improve your chances in a scary world. It can reduce the sense that the world is an unjust place by suggesting that it's all part of god's "plan" and anyway it will be put right in eternity, and of course it saves having to face up to the stark reality of death - of self and of loved ones - by putting in place the illusion that you and they will meet again "in a better place."

On a social level, it can be a uniting force - at least so long as everyone in your group beleives the same things. If one individual can't go along with it, it can be cruelly isolating - and if a large number can't go along with it, it can become devisive, ulitmately leading to wars to establish who is top god. As the opium of the masses it instructs the poor and exploited classes to be content with their lot and not challenge the wealthy and priveledged. And ulitmately, it is a source of political power, as Machiavelli knew well.

It good. But these stories are stories as they admit it. What is important is the role and purpose. In the previous post, we were talking about god. which is the pillar of any religion. religion versions are images of this Super Natural Power. And this is important not the tit bits or stories. Its up to you to believe in it or not. Just go for the big issues.

2. Actually, this bit of writing makes little sense. You talk about role and purpose and religion versions and super natural power. But with no coherent thought connecting them. Maybe you can explain what you mean?

"Well, so far you've only shown me one wing of the the bird. Now show me the "reason" wing."

I mean, reason and religion are two wings of one bird or life on this earth. We can't live without ethics.

What utter nonsense. Show me how reason is part of the bird that religion is attached to. Come on ... quote me some passages from your scriptures that show this.

As to us not living without ethics, I FULLY agree. But that has NOTHING to do with religion. Sure, religions incorporate a lot of ethics, but ethics can stand on it's own without religion. Ethics does NOT require religion.

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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

"Why do religious people respect Moses, Jesus, Mohammad and their other religious leaders? This is due to thier honesty, sincerity and piety, among other merits. While this can rarely be tracked in none believers. I mention this to say that there is need and a gap that religoin fills. It is not just fairy tales. I think reason and religion are two wings of one bird, they have to be taken advantage of."

Exactly my point ;)

============

Religion shouldn't be imposed to anyone, we should all be free to research and decide it by ourselves.

Only God Can Judge Me

الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي

I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer

أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ

Adey, That is what muslims do. They give religious education to their kids at very tender age as they strongly believe that the same keeps them away from the evils of this world. Millions of people think that a religion protects their kids. Otherwise why would they do?

I personally believe in giving religious education that teaches ethics, not spirituality, to my kids. Whether to go spiritual or not will be their choice when they grow up.

Islandrock,

"I can say is that I don't believe..."

If you don't want to believe, there are 1001 reasons to do so... No one will help..

Shamiri

"So when doe the verse NOT hold? Is the text a subjective thing then? That we have to interpret as we see fit and not take to mean exactly what is written?"

God, as He proclaims He is, has the right to demand belief in Him. Once you do that, you fall within the realm of Islam. Now you reason the things out based on the verses I quoted in a previous post, then you are protected from the verse in question, otherwise God is great, its between you and Him.

As for the interpretation, well, when you are rational you ought to interpret rationally. After all, why not use reason when it matters?

As for the logic that goes into answering your questions, I never attempted to answer them as I don't want to break my head doing so. You are welcome to search yourself. I am just interested in leading a life that doesn't seek to harm myself or others...

"And you failed." This is what YOU say. Do you consider yourself a criteria for truth? Prove it, I will admit it. Just to remind it, that in my first post i said religion logic is not base on reasoning or materilistic experiences. It has it own domain, it deals with Meta Physics.

"Why? Because you would again be unable to give a coherent answer?"

No, you will just waste time, which is unreasonable.

"Oh, I never said I didn't respect them. But just because I respect them doesn't mean I discard all logic and believe their story."

I never said or implied that you said that. Prove it if you are reading posts carefully. Come on pal you are confusing things now.

"There is also a need filled by stories like Spiderman, Aesop's Tales etc. But just because they fill a need does not make them true."

So you agree that religion fills a gap. It good. But these stories are stories as they admit it. What is important is the role and purpose. In the previous post, we were talking about god. which is the pillar of any religion. religion versions are images of this Super Natural Power. And this is important not the tit bits or stories. Its up to you to believe in it or not. Just go for the big issues.

"Well, so far you've only shown me one wing of the the bird. Now show me the "reason" wing."

I mean, reason and religion are two wings of one bird or life on this earth. We can't live without ethics.

Existence is a heavy burden, only high spirited ones can bear it. 

I can say is that I don't believe, that the woman comes from a man's rib. God created the animals before man and woman. The animals have already male and female gender. Did he made the females animals from the ribs of the male animals as well? Or did He made the animals (both male and female) at the same time. If He knew that He can make a male and female at the same time, then why He didn't do the same for man and woman? Did He already forgot the procedure on how He done it with animals for just a days passed?

"I for one, don t feel the need to try and convert you..why should I, or anyone else..when you have made up your own mind as to what you believe? Those that believe in a God/Allah, whatever...believe because we know what we know."

Ah but Scarlett, that is exactly what is done to young and impressionable minds. The question of a gods existence, in an ideal world, would not even be brotched until adulthood. I think some of us try to stop the religious mind virus speading from adults to young children who are evolutionly programed to believe anything their parents, teachers, elders tell them. I would not mention atheism to young children in this ideal world - if as one becomes an adult and is introduced to the belief in gods, or lack there of, and decides to believe then that's ok.

"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365

not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the

many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers

were given. Satan - 10."

if you follow religion with reason you will never cross the boundary of Islam and the verse you quoted perfectly holds.

So when doe the verse NOT hold? Is the text a subjective thing then? That we have to interpret as we see fit and not take to mean exactly what is written?

Its really pity that i need to spoon feed you on the logic which you boast of possessing in abundance!

Hmmmmm I did? You must be mistaking the actual logic in the posts for my BOASTING about it.

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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

shamiri,

if you follow religion with reason you will never cross the boundary of Islam and the verse you quoted perfectly holds. Its really pity that i need to spoon feed you on the logic which you boast of possessing in abundance!

Yet I feel sorry for muslims who follow religion letter by letter without understanding its essence. Prophet's wisdom in dealing with issues under given circumstances is what is required than to replay the recorded events, very few understand, though..

About the frozen and unfrozen parts of the world, I just wanted to prove your formal logic void.

And you failed.

As I said, your logic is weaker than the religous one. LOL

If you read posts carefully you will not ask the same questios again.

Why? Because you would again be unable to give a coherent answer?

Why do religious people respect Moses, Jesus, Mohammad and their other religious leaders? This is due to thier honesty, sincerity and piety, among other merits.

Oh, I never said I didn't respect them. But just because I respect them doesn't mean I discard all logic and believe their story.

While this can rarely be tracked in none believers. I mention this to say that there is need and a gap that religoin fills.

There is also a need filled by stories like Spiderman, Aesop's Tales etc. But just because they fill a need does not make them true.

It is not just fairy tales. I think reason and religion are two wings of one bird, they have to be taken advantage of.

Well, so far you've only shown me one wing of the the bird. Now show me the "reason" wing.

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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

I am quite enjoying this thread...learning alot of different pple views.

Have my own thoughts to add...at this late date.

Still stuck on this evil is the absense of good. If I sit in a chair doing nothing, which is that? Further evidence that evolution is still occurring to date, we no longer requre fur/ hair to keep warm due to improved habitats thus we are losing our hair, ie balding men and more recently women, less bodily hair on those in certain zones

Science does ask the same questions as religion otherwise would would have not had the big bang theory (which is being disputed in some circles), evolution (where did we come from) etc

Animals have 'feelings' however not like ours. We label their instinctual behaviour so we can better understand them. Further to that, the existence of feelings is not solely explained in faith, they can be proven through blood work, brain scans, (insert medical test) and one day...mayhap the soul, just thinking of the movie 21 grams and how art imitates life.

After all this, I think Alexa has made me see sense and I now want to learn more about the Spaghetti Lord!

I for one, don t feel the need to try and convert you..why should I, or anyone else..when you have made up your own mind as to what you believe? Those that believe in a God/Allah, whatever...believe because we know what we know. You believe in what you know..its up to the individual to decide what is right for them.

I have no need to try and PROVE to you what and why I believe the way I do. I KNOW for sure that what I believe is right. If you are questioning, then perhaps you should do more research since you are still questioning.

Grant me the senility to forget the people I never liked,the good fortune to run into the ones I do,and the eyesight to tell the difference.

If you don't believe in God, how could you know He has influenced anything or not? If you at least suppose that, you may say this. As I said, your logic is weaker than the religous one. I mentioned the reasons of believing in God in previous post, which you might have read. Just to summarize, its our weakness, disability and perishabiltiy, which, in a believer's point of view necessitate the existence of a Super Natural Power. Should I, according to your materialistic logic, prove God just scientifically in a lab? If you read posts carefully you will not ask the same questios again.

About the frozen and unfrozen parts of the world, I just wanted to prove your formal logic void. So, one has to be honest when replying not just playing on words. And you are playing on words from the beginning.

Why do religious people respect Moses, Jesus, Mohammad and their other religious leaders? This is due to thier honesty, sincerity and piety, among other merits. While this can rarely be tracked in none believers. I mention this to say that there is need and a gap that religoin fills. It is not just fairy tales. I think reason and religion are two wings of one bird, they have to be taken advantage of.

Existence is a heavy burden, only high spirited ones can bear it. 

'I m not saying you accept Islam else you will goto hell'

shamiri said

"But that is EXACTLY what Islam says."

No. Islam condemns the possessiveness of God by any. Here are the verses:

And this?

If anyone desires a religion other than Islam never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost.

Sura 3:85

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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

Well, I was hoping there was something I was missing, but there isn't.

Religious people thus believe, and teach their children, to accept statements as facts, without any logic or proof behind it.

Now imagine we apply these same rules to any field of research or law.

"Yes, your honor, the man must be guilty because god told me he is". "Well that's good enough for us. Life in prison for you!!".

A new generation is being raised that can,selectively, disregard the absence of proof or logic, and still accept something as FACT and TRUE, despite such lack.

Scary.

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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

Shamiri,

"That is exactly what I think too. There is no logic behind it, just faith, but very few religious people are willing to admit that."

In fact from the very beginning of the thread people's answer has been faith and you failed to admit it!

'I m not saying you accept Islam else you will goto hell'

shamiri said

"But that is EXACTLY what Islam says."

No. Islam condemns the possessiveness of God by any. Here are the verses:

2:111. And they say: "None shall enter Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian." Those are their (vain) desires. Say: "Produce your proof if ye are truthful."

2:112. Nay,-whoever submits His whole self to Allah and is a doer of good,- he will get his reward with his Lord; on such shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

Quran makes it clear who are the owners of paradise in this verse:

2:62. Lo! those who believe, and those who are Jews, and Christians,

and Sabaeans whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right surely their reward is with their Lord, and

there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.

And Islam unifies Abrahamic religions by this verse:

4:125. Who is better in religion than he who surrendereth his purpose to Allah while doing good (to men) and followeth

the tradition of Abraham, the upright? Allah (Himself) chose Abraham for friend

(Islam essentially seeks to mimic Abraham in actions, i.e seek not other than God for help)

And the most beutiful verse that unites all humanity is:

49:13. O mankind! Lo! We have created you male and female, and have made `you nations and tribes that ye may know one

another. Lo! the noblest of you, in the sight of Allah, is the best in conduct. Lo! Allah is Knower, Aware.

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This is not blabla

Hmmm. OK ... I will have to think about that one. Thanks

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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

Alexa,

That is exactly what I think too. There is no logic behind it, just faith, but very few religious people are willing to admit that.

And when I question religion through logic, everyone tries to explain it, instead of just saying : There is no logic.

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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

but noone has answered the questions yet ... they just try to explain my question away ... not answer it

---

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

because you will not accept any explanations. As the thread go longer, you will always have reason to contradict. It is only good to answer somebody looking for "light" and not one who only seek argument. May God have mercy on your soul!

"dgoodrebel will always be the rebellious good one"

"I know" is a positive statement, could you prove this knowledge of yours?

Yep. No god has ever influenced the world I live in in any verifiable way. No miracle, no supernatural act, nothing. Ergo, there is no god. And remember, the key is verifiable. Now can you prove that your god DOES exist?

If North pole is frozen then surely the rest of Earth is frozen. Is this the logic you are hiding behind, then bless it. Bye the way this Formal Logic will prove void.

Nope. Because I have proof that the rest of the world is not frozen. Otherwise I would be typing this from my igloo, right? The same can not be said for religion.

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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

Shamiri you said:

"But if one part of religion is just a fairy tale, then surely the rest of religion is also just a fairy tale".

If North pole is frozen then surely the rest of Earth is frozen. Is this the logic you are hiding behind, then bless it. Bye the way this Formal Logic will prove void.

I assume now you are in process of fact finding, which is marvellous, but don't just forget that stubbornnes and misinterpreting other people's ideas will serve no purpose.

"I am not trying to prove the existence of god. I know he doesn't exist."

"I know" is a positive statement, could you prove this knowledge of yours?

I see from your posts that you are laughing at religious beliefs while your ideas are more dogmatic than those ones.

I m not saying you accept Islam else you will goto hell

But that is EXACTLY what Islam says. If you don't agree with that then you only believe in Islam selectively.

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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

shamiri,

"But my arguments are not the point. The whole point of this thread is that religion is flawed. "

looking at what u wrote here you are not after the concept of religion but after the very concept of God in whom majority trusts and keeps hope. I m not saying you accept Islam else you will goto hell. that is quite foolish. I am just defending peoples' faith and hope in God. religion is people's choice.

"Using your same reasoning, if your arguments were valid everyone would be bowing before your god. Since that is not so, your arguments are invalid (your dream only)."

fyi i hve not started attcking what others believe. I think tht shoul be enough...

LOL ... very good :)

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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

equally applies to the 2 other Abrahamic faiths, Islam only being Desert god 3.0

"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365

not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the

many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers

were given. Satan - 10."

Is this your real name? if it is, what a coincidence!!

In Quran chapter 20, there is a story abut you. It is a huge honor to whom his name written in a book read by billion of people :)

Dear Friend

My advice to you is read about Christians from christian PPL & see how they convince you without attacking islam & then read About islam from muslim Books & see how could they Convince you without Attacking Christians,By the end you Chose it`s your choice after all.keep away from the PPL who is trying to make you hesitate by attacking others without explaining they Beleives.by the way this was the way i chose mine.

shamiri, u seem to be bit over confident that you would never get reasonble answers for your questions that u r just attacking the replies without reading or unerstaning them.

On the contrary. I read and understand them. What I DON'T understand is how you people can believe so many things without a shred of evidence.

If I told you that His Holiness The Flying Spaghetti Monster created everything in this world, but that you had to believe in him before you could understand how all powerful He is, would you believe me?

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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

In order to understand the existence of GOD, one has to have a religion and evaluate the teachings. Certain issues are undescribable.

Can you prove that soul and feeling exist? These are the kind of examples that can only be explained religiously. Try elaborate the meanings of the above and prove that it exist

1. The idea that one must have a religion to understand god *edit sorry, the existence of god i meant* is false.

2. The issue of the existence of a soul requires a definition of what you mean by soul.

3. Asking me to elaborate on the meaning of things you mention and to prove their existence seems a to indicate that you want me to do your work for you :)

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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

Im sorry if i am wrong but I haven't heard of atheism as a faith yet.

Do you understand that anyone can ask such questions and win the debate if that is his purpose. If your arguments were valid all the readers here would forget God and become atheist but that is your day dream only. Faith(belief in God, don't misunderstand) has a purpose which only the faithful know.

God bless you.

I am also sorry that you are wrong. you use the word faith to imply religion. I do not have to believe in some fairy tail being to have faith.

But my arguments are not the point. The whole point of this thread is that religion is flawed. Using your same reasoning, if your arguments were valid everyone would be bowing before your god. Since that is not so, your arguments are invalid (your dream only).

Also, you wish to state that only religious people can have faith. Faith is NOT equal to belief in a god. Here are some definitions of faith:

Main Entry:

1faith Listen to the pronunciation of 1faith

Pronunciation:

\ˈfāth\

Function:

noun

Inflected Form(s):

plural faiths Listen to the pronunciation of faiths \ˈfāths, sometimes ˈfāthz\

Etymology:

Middle English feith, from Anglo-French feid, fei, from Latin fides; akin to Latin fidere to trust — more at bide

Date:

13th century

1 a: allegiance to duty or a person : loyalty b (1): fidelity to one's promises (2): sincerity of intentions2 a (1): belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2): belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1): firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2): complete trust3: something that is believed especially with strong conviction ; especially : a system of religious beliefs

synonyms see belief

— on faith

: without question

Less than 50% of the definitions refer to religion. As I said, I have faith that god does not exist, a perfectly valid statement. I don't need religion to make it valid. Also, why should my faith be classified any different from yours?

You also said: Do you understand that anyone can ask such questions and win the debate if that is his purpose.

I asked a question which has not been answered yet. You then give snippets from some book, which you then say are unquestionable because your holy book or god said it is so and only people believing in the same thing as you could actually understand your answers.

To make it easy and avoid all confusion, answer the original questions. Try it. If you can't, that's ok. I don't have all the answers either.

---

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

Shamiri, what is your views to the issues that I've raised?

'"u cudn't get what I meant by faith! a religious faith.."

If by that you meant my faith is invalid, then yes you said it. '

shamiri, u seem to be bit over confident that you would never get reasonble answers for your questions that u r just attacking the replies without reading or unerstaning them. Im sorry if i am wrong but I haven't heard of atheism as a faith yet.

Do you understand that anyone can ask such questions and win the debate if that is his purpose. If your arguments were valid all the readers here would forget God and become atheist but that is your day dream only. Faith(belief in God, don't misunderstand) has a purpose which only the faithful know.

God bless you.

Only scholars should be blamed, Europe had also problems to get their citizens an higher culture but the scholars were abusing all the time of their followers faith.

Only God Can Judge Me

الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي

I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer

أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ

Yup, and here we are today, they still only have sand, camels and pyramids.

---

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

I would just like to add that at an Egyptian piramid was found some hieroglifs similar to a modern helicopter and that was confirmed that the old egyptians already knew how to build a planator (mean a plane without engines that can plane)

Only God Can Judge Me

الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي

I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer

أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ

I tried that .... just got an email reply

"Dear Shamiri, use the friggin spell checker. I had no clue what you said.

Yours Truly,

The Creator Guy"

---

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

wather you are abliver or not tray to get free from all of that and do this..

when you are alone clear from all live dibaite close your eye and ask this qustion:

((my creater I'm alost soul I ask you with all your muarsy to lead me to your road...ameen))

it's that simpel..

I would love to see what future space travelers think when they arrive on earth and find a pile of science fiction novels.

"Oooo they knew the secrets of time travel and dark matter!!" ;)

---

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

I ate this when I was twelve, Drac. My father was also obsessed with these things. Unfortunately there are more valuable explanations available than those of Erich von Daeniken.

From 'Existio Otra Humanidad' by J. J. Benitez, Plaza & Janes, Copyright 1975, pages 11 to 22 note the following :

In 1969, in a white rocky desert near the City of Ica in Peru, Dr. Javier Cabrera Darquea, discovered and collected over 11,000 engraved stones from a very ancient time. These, plus an estimated 40,000 to 50,000 more of the same, constituted a vast library of information from the past, even up to a million years ago.

They describe another humanity who apparently lived on this planet many thousands of years ago. The good Peruvian Doctor Cabrera has his fantastic collection on display in his house on the Plaza de Armas in the City of Ica.

Eleven thousand stones engraved with advanced knowledge in Medicine, Zoology, Biology, Law, Geography, Religion, Astronomy and Astronautics detailing the knowledge of that advanced society. The figures of the other humanity engraved on these stone tablets looked very much like men of Earth.

For the first time Earth humanity is confronted with the surprising evidence that someone, before him, knew the secrets of surgery, astronomy, space flight and many other things such as the movement of the continents that make up our world.

All this and much more still to be discovered lies there in the Peruvian Desert called Ocucaje.

Doctor Javier Cabrera noticed that this "library" of information engraved on stones was divided into series and sections in their respective locations, forming distinct volumes of stones.

Among them were a series demonstrating knowledge of medicine and surgery including detailed explanations of heart, brain, liver and kidney transplants. Methods of overcoming rejection of organ transplants were described. There were descriptions of caesarian section and acupuncture; of work with genetic codes and prolongation of life.

There were descriptions of electronic systems that could control biological life functions of the body while it was being worked on by the doctors.

There were a series of tablets devoted to astronomy and knowledge of the universe, among which were examples that described the occupation of our planet by these beings long before contemporary man.

Thirteen constellations were specifically described by the creators of these tablets. These historians indicated other places in the heavens where there existed LIFE, vegetable, animal and intelligent. That civilization recorded the passing of a great comet, millions of years ago that produced catastrophic disturbances in the society of the time.

They knew of existing LIFE in distant stars and nebulosities. There were descriptions of technical devices and machines that traveled in space without consuming fuel. There were explanations of the figures and lines drawn on the plains of Nazca. There was also a drawing of hemispheric maps of another planet. NOT EARTH, but another planet having intelligent life that was also capable of space travel.

There were a series of tablets describing plant and animal life long extinct. There were drawings of men provided with apparatus reminiscent of cowboys, mounted on four legged animals in pursuit of great saurians, the dinosaurs of millions of years ago. These men had larger heads and smaller stature, and were shown pursuing various types of dinosaurs such as Stegosaurus, Triceratops, and Iguanodontes.

There were tablets showing the biological cycles of these great saurians, and even some domesticated examples of them. There were a series of tablets dedicated to the ancient continents of our world, and two matched circular stones showing the eastern and the western hemispheres of this planet at that time; hemispheres that showed the earth's geography millions of years ago. These hemispheric maps showed continents that no longer exist today, such as the mythical Atantis and Mu, and even others.

Among these tablets was also a story of a great evacuation or departure of men from Earth. On stones of great weight the civilization engraved the story of the departure OF THE ELITE SCIENTISTS AND PROFESSIONALS, STRAIGHT TO A PHYSICAL PLANET THAT TODAY WOULD BE CONSIDERED A PART OF THE PLEIADES!"

That's just another conspiracy theory, Dracula. Where is the proof?

Dracula, that "LUCA" of almost 4 billion years ago was not a primate, it was a virus or a bacteria at its best. Or maybe even just an amino molecule. And evolution is like a tree. There is one branch for the monkeys (Maybe like you), and there is another branch for the hominids (maybe like me, or vice versa). But one branch doesn't evolve from another branch. They all come from a common trunk.

Darwin himself hesitated to publish his finding because he was sure they would be misinterpreted! And this is just what has happened.

MD: I haven't read the Origin of Species but i was tought at school that Darwin defended that primates and humans could have evoluted from the same animal/primate.

Only God Can Judge Me

الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي

I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer

أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ

"A theory of universal common descent based on evolutionary principles was proposed by Charles Darwin in his book On the Origin of Species (1859), and later in The Descent of Man (1871). This theory is now generally accepted by biologists, and the last universal common ancestor (LUCA or LUA), that is, the most recent common ancestor of all currently living organisms, is believed to have appeared about 3.9 billion years ago"

No, platao, science doesn't ask this question. Science says that there is 'evidence' that species developed in millions of years through gene mutations. Some unqualified 'scholars' attribute to Darwin that humans evolved from primates. Darwin has never said this!

No? Darwin wasn't a science man? Didn't he tried to explain Humans evoluted from primates? Aren't scholars defending that Humans were created by God instead of evoluting from primates?

Only God Can Judge Me

الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي

I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer

أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ

Platao, spiritists still 'believe' in something. They are pseudo-scientists at best. Not 'real' ones. What is the question regarding evolution. What is the question? Science doesn't ask this question.

MD: Spiritists don't belive in evil or good, should we be called scientists? ;)

"There is not a single question that is asked by both simultaneously."

hmmmm, so what's the question regarding evolution (science) or creation (religion)? ;)

Like Shamiri said, it's a semantic question.

Only God Can Judge Me

الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي

I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer

أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ

You can replace 'nature' with 'God', platao. It would just be another name. But: Science and Religion are not rivals! Each seeks for different answers to different questions. There is not a single question that is asked by both simultaneously. Religion 'evaluates' by creating "good" and "bad". Science doesn't know these terms. There is no "good" or "bad" in science. A proton has a mass of 1.6726 x 10 to the power of -27 or an equivalent energy of 938.27231 MeV/c to the power of 2. Science doesn't say that this is "good" or "bad". Religion would ask, is this good? And if the answer is 'yes', any proton that has a slightly different mass would go to hell.

.... for all practical purposes you could call me an atheist. Where atheists don't believe in god, I believe there is no god. Might just be semantics but that is what I believe.

---

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

MD: So, we could use God instead of Nature and angels instead of Natural forces?

How about:

"The rules of God/Allah are the ones that allow us to exist. In that sense they are 'perfect'. Any other rules would be 'imperfect' because they would threaten our existence."

Like i said, religion and science are like 2 rivals, each one trying to show the other who's right and who's wrong but both are right and wrong but both refuse to admit it :)

Only God Can Judge Me

الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي

I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer

أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ

As for the creation and origin, the religion versions are just symbolic, at least to me. As they can't be true and dependable. They just tell us the story in a simplest fairy tale

But if one part of religion is just a fairy tale, then surely the rest of religion is also just a fairy tale.

I am not trying to prove the existence of god. I know he doesn't exist.

---

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

Kosmik, science does not try to answer the same questions as religion! Science is totally desinterested in the question if you should have one wife or two wifes. Science does not judge or answer the question if killing your neighbor is allowed or not. Science doesn't even ask this question.

perfect? This question is obsolete. We have no choice. The rules of 'nature' are the ones that allow us to exist. In that sense they are 'perfect'. Any other rules would be 'imperfect' because they would threaten our existence. You see, platao, the rules were not created to suit us. We were created according to what the given rules allowed!

Do you think Nature is perfect? If not, why?

So, we were created by nature, right?

Only God Can Judge Me

الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي

I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer

أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ

well, platao, everything which is not man-made is nature. Why can't we defeat natural forces? Because we are part of nature ourselves. What are natural forces? The forces that make everything appear as it is.

MD: What's Nature for a scientist? What are Natural forces?

Why can't we, humans, defeat Nature forces?

Only God Can Judge Me

الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي

I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer

أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ

platao, I don't 'think' or 'believe' that either. Science and religion are incompatible because they rest on different assumptions which are not accepted from both sides. If you start a logical building based on the statement "God exists" you will get to a different conclusion than if you start with 'God doesn't exist'. Science says neither this nor that. Science makes no assumptions about the beginning.

MD: I don't think science and religion are incompatible, just that both, at their own way, try to explain things FOR WHICH WE DON'T HAVE A REPLY AT THE PRESENT, sorry caps.

Incident/ acident / on purpose / involunterly, who can say?

The main prob between science and religion is the tendency that religion has to try forcing their believers to follow some books blindly. A good example was Galileo Galilei that was forced to "brainwash" himself because the Bible said that Earth was in the center of the universe but his observations confirmed that Earth was just part of a galaxy and not the center of the universe.

This is another reason why i keep telling people that scholars want to make us all think that we, humans, are God's main concern, with such a huge universe and so many living beings created, it's really hard to believe that.

Only God Can Judge Me

الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي

I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer

أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ

edifis, send me your Arabic documents and I will write them down letter by letter with the corresponding English ones. (One page one bottle of Jack Daniel's)

No google only translates. If i google it Arabic will become english.

I want it in arabic, but English alphabets.

Google Transliteration is only useful when you want to write English using arabic script.

I want the opposite.

Shamiri, This is an interesting topic to discuss.If I may ask. What is your religion? (Atheist maybe)I agree with MD as reflected in his 1st statement. In order to understand the existence of GOD, one has to have a religion and evaluate the teachings. Certain issues are undescribable.

Can you prove that soul and feeling exist? These are the kind of examples that can only be explained religiously. Try elaborate the meanings of the above and prove that it exist.

google it, edifis. I don't want to support your lazyness and your tendency of ignorance towards the things "behind the scenes".

No I am not afraid. But it does'nt sound too interesting. To explain I should say, after I watch a movie with nice special effects I never like to know the technology behind the creation of those scenes. It spoils the fun.

MD can you suggest a good software or Website for Arabic to English Transliteration.

I want to enter arabic texts and get it transliterated to english alphabets with arabic pronunciation.

"Some things are better not understood".

Afraid to learn what reality is like.

of what?

afraid?, edifis.

"Some things are better not understood"

- Lord Humbug

edifis, how about calling it an 'incident'? What is essential is that it wasn't 'planned'.

strange facts! "Universe created by an accident" what accident? whose accident? Is it car accident or the type of accidents which creates illegitimate children.

too complex! Probably that is why I never felt the urge to read "A brief History of Times". Judging by the volume it's not brief.

Science and religion can never come together. Religion starts with a statement, or axiom, or theorem: God exists. In religion this must not be proven, it is beyond doubt. This condition, however, does not exist for science. Right from the beginning science and religion speak in different languages and none understands the other. Science begins with: there was nothing. This 'nothing', however, is fairly different from what non-scientists think. In fact, the 'nothing' contains everything. Everything exists in two versions, a 'positive' and a 'negative' part. Both together sum up to zero (nothing). But through numerous probability calculations and research into the 'status' of this 'nothing' it was proven that this state is not stable. Quantomechanical 'fluctuations' left some of the 'positive' parts which form the universe. Therefore the universe is the result of quantomechanical fluctuations or accidents. For science there is absolutely no need to rely on a 'creator'. There was nothing to create!

mayam: 100% agreeded

Only God Can Judge Me

الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي

I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer

أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ

God is always there. A simple way to put it is that we are perishable and weak, and this leads to think of a super natural being that had caused all this happen. When you are alone just think deeply, how did you come, why did you come, did you come just by a steamy session(so simple). We are speaking of the origin of creation, not individual cases. You are speaking of chance, but do you believ this whole universe just came by chance? As for the creation and origin, the religion versions are just symbolic, at least to me. As they can't be true and dependable. They just tell us the story in a simplest fairy tale. But all the incidents of the material world and soul lead to a super power behind this magnificant scene. If you are going to proof god just by reason, you may not reach to satisfaction. Its a mixed experience of matter and soul. We are not just flesh, don't forget the soul.I am not preaching here, nor I try to convert anybody, all I do is to express my view. If others were happy with it I would be thankful. As for the questions, at the main topic, they will be of no importance if we believed there was a god or not, because it will be invalid to have an unable or malevolent god.

Atheism leads to nihilism, faith leads to looking for another life full of joys. At least, even the notion souds good. Faith gives meaning and color to life and makes one be optimistic and responsible. Here I don't defend the religous extremism and their atrocities, or their laughable version of creation or other related issues.

Existence is a heavy burden, only high spirited ones can bear it. 

God doesnt exist. Aliens,yes!

blablabla ... crude language does not make your point at all, that's why you didn't get an answer till now. Secondly, I just have to look at your avatar to know the validity of what you say. Thirdly:

u cudn't get what I meant by faith! a religious faith..

If by that you meant my faith is invalid, then yes you said it. If it is NOT what you meant, i.e. that my faith is valid, then we agree on something at least

---

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

Religiously the beer god and vine goddess, told me that God is a fairy tale in many shapes and forms.

“Be fearful when others are greedy, and be greedy when others are fearful,”

shamiri, are you there? you didn't answer did i tell you that your faith is invalid?

You are right .... some post slip by without me seeing them ... WAY too difficult hehe.

So I asked you if you believe that the God is a scientist because I support the argument that we have to learn and only those that learn will be rewarded.

so what's your answer?

:)

Well, if I believe there IS no god, how can I believe he is a scientist? ;)

---

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

In this regard you are acting god. If we were perfect we would question God then.

If we were perfect we wouldnt HAVE to ask questions.

Your statements are based on flawed data. You think that some super being created you. Actually, it was a biological accident that happened during some steamy session between your parents. So, the flawed data invalidates the rest of your statement. Of course, if you have VERIFIABLE proof to the contrary, please share it with me and I will become an instant convert.

---

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

lol, thks Shamiri, RP WANTS ALL THE SPAGHETTI for himself ;)

Only God Can Judge Me

الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي

I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer

أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ

(God) has created everything, theoritically he is the originator, but he has given this ability to human beings to make it happen or not. Our creation is the creation of the created. So, He has given us th potentiality to do good or bad, then its we who decides to do whatever we want. Bye the way, Shamiri, we are imperfect, how could we set up ourselves in the Super Power's chair and judge him like an oridnary person. In this regard you are acting god. If we were perfect we would question God then. In this regard if you reach any better conclusion, share it with us.

Existence is a heavy burden, only high spirited ones can bear it. 

Ahhh no worries Plato .... I have TFSM's son here .... Holy Lasagna ..... not quite as filling but a whole lot more fun :)

---

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

RP: Don't u dare running away with my spaghetti :P

Only God Can Judge Me

الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي

I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer

أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ

valid? did i spell that? lsiten then talk

ROTFL @ RED

Spaghetti religion should be mixed with a healthy dose of scepticism and a dash of logic before eating .... otherwise some side effects might be experienced

---

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

So MY faith is invalid but YOURS is valid .... thank you ... you just proved my point :)

---

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

If you want to be a Religious believer, don't forget to eat some religious spaghetti before voicing your religious opinion.

dammed spaghetti started to tangle out during my daily natures call

“Be fearful when others are greedy, and be greedy when others are fearful,”

shamiri, your reasoning also now seems no better than bullshiit. u cudn't get what I meant by faith! a religious faith..

So don't change the topic ... Muslim play ...... answer the questions or say you dont know :)

---

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

i set with them and having chet-chat with them

even i have some jewish Friends

and dont change the Topic........jew Play :)

it is about u not me..............

Don`t Love me be my friend

Oh I HAVE faith. I have ABSOLUTE faith that god doesnt exist. :)

And yes you are right, we will all perish. But I don't fear death, I've been dead for billions of years before I was born.

---

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

well, if faith enters one's heart before he can reason the things, he can answer these questions to himself. Looking for faith with reason, however, is like searching for water in the mirage. let me tell you two things the Quran says:

"From Him we came and to Him is our journey"

The fact is that we came and surely we will depart.

"everything in this world is to perish"

when something is made to perish it has little value.

Hence the death and destruction have no value, the pain is only temporary..

What makes you think I want to love you?

---

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

Don`t Love me be my friend

shame mr-design .... so i presume you don't like jewish people?

and change my belief? (moerse vet kans boet)

---

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

i knew too many jew peolpe and thay r always think like u

and asking same questions.

and which questions u want to have an answer for it

ask me one by one to answer u . to change ur beliefs

(not me how will change ur beliefs...... the God/Allah will change u to better beliefs (insha'allah)

Don`t Love me be my friend

Waaahahahaha ..... they may have answered ... but they didnt answer the questions. Everyone wanted to "explain". And if you actually READ the thread you would realise I am as far from being a Jew as you are from being a Satanist.

---

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

1-Is you god willing to prevent evil, but not able ?

Then he is not omnipotent.

2- Is he able, but not willing ? Then he is malevolent

( u wont the answers for omnipotent or malevolent )

3-Is he both able and willing ?

4-Then whence cometh evil ?

5-Is he neither able nor willing?

6-Then why call him God?

you said three questions and it is 6 questions

u said"I am looking forward to any answers from any religion in this debate."

and evry one answered u by his or her beliefs but u keeping argument with them ( as u haveing very good background about religions and God. and sking more questions................ what do u want ?

my question

R u very religious Jewish man ?.....trying to make Muslim and Christian having some bad thinking about GOD

Nots : Only Jewish can say God not omnipotent, God is malevolent,God not willing and God is poor and so and so

From All the religions in this world (Not only Muslim and Christian) thay nerver saying somthing like this about God ......... only Jewish used to say this.

Don`t Love me be my friend

Salax: I didn't replied to 1st and 2nd question because i don't know, so i replied the only one i knew the answer.

Only God Can Judge Me

الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي

I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer

أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ

"Yes, that is true. But I see more irrational religious people than I see irrational non-believers."

Well, i'm diferent from those, but i understand what you mean and that's one of the reasons i say that religion is something private.

I also belive in evolution, but it has nothing to do with religion.

I also think that before trying to show others that they are purer (religious terms speacking) people need to be really purer in heart otherwise we are only fooling ourselfs because all that belive in God, like me, even if they have a different religion, know that you can't hide anything from Him.

Having different beliefs doesn't make anyone better or worst than someone else, your actions are what matters.

Only God Can Judge Me

الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي

I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer

أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ

At least the spaghetti God keeps a lot peoples stomach full and happy. Instead of those Religious Placebo Pill.

And he tastes a lot better too. Communion wafer vs. Spaghetti Bolognaise. Wafer 0, Spaghetti 1.

:-)

---

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

I do belive we can have religion and still be racional :)

Being racional is what makes us different from irracional animals

Yes, that is true. But I see more irrational religious people than I see irrational non-believers.

Ohh granted, atheist, agnostics or any non-believer can be just as irrational because no one is perfect.

---

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

(Ethics=Religion).

I have reached it after many years of study and reasoning. I don't reject reasoning as a principle, but we have to stick to rules. These rules are ethics, which shape our personality and behaviour. Even an atheist believes, he believes in Atheism. So he has some sort of Ethics. All ends up in the Supreme Power again. In this case Shamiri believes in Evelotion. Its ok, this is his (Religion), even if he dose not call it so.

Maannnn this is so funny. Saying an atheist believes in atheism is like saying I believe in not believing. Actually, I am one step beyond that. Atheists do not believe there is a god. I believe there is NO god.

Secondly, calling evolution a religion is like calling environmentalism a philosophy.

---

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

I do belive we can have religion and still be racional :)

Being racional is what makes us different from irracional animals

Only God Can Judge Me

الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي

I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer

أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ

Brainwashing?

At least the spaghetti God keeps a lot peoples stomach full and happy. Instead of those Religious Placebo Pill.

“Be fearful when others are greedy, and be greedy when others are fearful,”

Religion is a matter of beliefe not reasoning. Abstract reasoning without ethics will lead to no where, (Ethics=Religion).

I have reached it after many years of study and reasoning. I don't reject reasoning as a principle, but we have to stick to rules. These rules are ethics, which shape our personality and behaviour. Even an atheist believes, he believes in Atheism. So he has some sort of Ethics. All ends up in the Supreme Power again. In this case Shamiri believes in Evelotion. Its ok, this is his (Religion), even if he dose not call it so.

Existence is a heavy burden, only high spirited ones can bear it. 

lol Rs

Only God Can Judge Me

الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي

I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer

أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ

no answer for you. worship spagheti if you wish.

Poverty is not for the sake of hardship. No, it is there because nothing exists but God. Poverty unlocks the door -- what a blessed key!

- Jalaluddin al-Rumi

Well, seams to me a different way from the one i use to share my beliefs but than, i never said that their religion didn't existed but i can be as ceptic as you towards your beliefs.

Only God Can Judge Me

الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي

I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer

أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ

I am not worried about them. I am "sharing" my religious beliefs with them, the way they share THEIR beliefs with everyone on QL.

---

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

Dear Shamiri,

Why are you so 'worried/concerned' about these believers as you clearly do not have an interrest in what they believe or do not believe?

heero/tara/RP: lol :)

Only God Can Judge Me

الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي

I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer

أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ

wow this thread is too much for me to bear

I feel like my brain is exploding

Religiously you need to ask your mouse for your answer. :)

“Be fearful when others are greedy, and be greedy when others are fearful,”

"Everything in this book may be wrong." Illusions: The Adventures of The Reluctant Messiah by Richard Bach

Religiously,

I like the idea of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, about right know.

I'm already hungry and thinking of cooking some good old Spaghetti for dinner.

“Be fearful when others are greedy, and be greedy when others are fearful,”

"So unless you yourself take up Physics and get to the point where you can yourself interpret output of the electron microscope, you can not prove existence of electrons etc.

Come to think of it, isn't this similar to what we are arguing about? LOL"

RnR: exactly my point

===============

Shamiri: In the same way i already spoke with spirits, so, they are real for me, as much as the proton or the electron are for you.

salax: "Why do people have feelings? " - It's our nature just like all other living beings, we are racionals but we still are part of the animal group being mammals, do you know any animal without fealings?

kosmic: nice reply :)

Only God Can Judge Me

الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي

I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer

أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ

I have faith in provable, verifiable knowledge :)

*signing off for tonight*

---

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

I can only tell you that if you unlock some of the important basic law which god, the creator has blessed on this universe then you will understand god & answer

all the questions yourself.

So, I must "believe" before this fantasy figure will bestow the gift of understanding why I should believe on me.

Nice.

---

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

you are demonstrating faithin someone. Either a scientist, or a teacher or a book. Otherwise, we have to re-discover for everything and acquire the sum-total of mankind's knowledge.

So no, I don't need to be a physicist to know the photon exists. Cause and effect.

Not turning the burden of proof on to you. Just seeking clarity on your assertion (grin)

Lets get right to it then .... show me ONE, verifiable and reproducible proof that these gods exist.

I say the don't, so don't ask me to prove it, proving something does not exist is a big philosophical issue. Like: prove there is no chocolate covered planet.

But proving something exist IS possible. If verifiable and reproducible, it constitutes proof.

If you cannot prove this existence of god, then don't get upset when people calls your religion false or a fairy tale. Because you cannot prove that it isn't.

---

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

I this the "Ask Shamiri things you didn't know" day?

But ok ... to answer you:

flames get their familiar shape from air convection. Warm air rises and the stream/flow of air tries to rush into the warmest spot, right above the flame. so all the air moves towards one point above the flame, giving it a pointy/flame look. The rest of the flame stuff you can google yourself :)

Earth's rotation: gravitation between planets and magnetism generated by molten rock/metal.

Why do people have feelings? I really don't know but it will probably have something to do with survival instincts or some such.

---

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

Ohh, and that is also a very nice way to shift the burden of proof to the questioner and way from the person being questioned ;)

---

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

Ohhh but I can produce all the experiments that have a verifiable and reproducible result and get the SAME result every time. For instance, I can turn a light on, and even though I cannot see individual photons, the dark goes away. I can do it again and again. No, I don't have FAITH that tells me the photon exists. I have scientific facts that explains it. And I can do it any time I want. Uhhmmm let me just pay my electricity bill quickly ;)

So no, I don't need to be a physicist to know the photon exists. Cause and effect.

---

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

are too difficult to keep straight :)

I was referring to your post of Mon, 27/10/2008 - 10:12pm

You were replying to qatman and were demolishing his arguments. On of the points was;

3. If the argument is that we have to learn and only those that learn will be rewarded, then life is nothing more than an experiment and god is the scientist.

So I asked you if you believe that the God is a scientist because I support the argument that we have to learn and only those that learn will be rewarded.

so what's your answer?

:)

is pretty lame. You will NOT see an electron with your naked eyes. You will see a fuzzy picture on a black and white screen and a physicist will explain what you are seeing.

However, most of the people believe the physicist because they trust that CERN will hire someone who knows what they are talking about.

But wait, we do not believe in interpreters. Right Shamiri?

So unless you yourself take up Physics and get to the point where you can yourself interpret output of the electron microscope, you can not prove existence of electrons etc.

Come to think of it, isn't this similar to what we are arguing about? LOL

double post. Deleted

Uhhh what are you referring to? Are you referring to the chicken n egg post?

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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

so heedless shmiri you are really the opposite kind created by God. you are the perfect example. alwys deviating from the truth...pls read al quran al karim you will find your self being described there.

"Born optimist nothing can keep me too low for so long"

possible options in your post above.

3. If the argument is that we have to learn and only those that learn will be rewarded, then life is nothing more than an experiment and god is the scientist.

Since you do not believe in this option either, what is the argument against it?

You really DON'T have a clue, do you?

Basically then it would be ok to say that *insert religion of choice* followers are delusional children that are too spineless to take responsibility for what happens around them and must attribute it to god?

*edit* well, maybe I shouldn't say "take responsability" but rather: are incapable of accepting what is happening around them without attributing it to "god's" will.

---

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

I think in all sense athiest believe on some thing that is confusing.it is like trying to prove and looking for some one who could give a well explantion about "which comes first the chicken or an egg" they evolve in this kind of idea. and because no one can give satisfactory answer there they rejoice in their ignorance.I rather call the athiest as confucionist thats best described them coz they are heedless.

"Born optimist nothing can keep me too low for so long"

Can you prove to me that electrons and protons exist? I say you can't prove that they exist,

Uhhh helll YEAH I can prove it :) Book us some time on the Cern Microscope thingies and i will show you.

---

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

lol SN, not really, everybody is free to belive or not, you wont be punished 4 that, but if you make fun during something as serious as a mediunic session, than you may have a surprise, i'm sure some folks here, that don't belive in Spiritism (and not Spiritualism), can tell you stories about this kind of events.

Shamiri:

"Hasn't happened yet, so no perfect being exists. Prove me wrong. PROVE, not just TELL me I am wrong."

Can you prove to me that electrons and protons exist? I say you can't prove that they exist, but you surelly know that they exist don't u?

P.S.- Going off, hope we can continue tomorrow :)

Only God Can Judge Me

الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي

I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer

أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ

Hmmmm lol but this thread is not about the validity of spiritism at all is it? ;)

---

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

Don't knock spiritualism till you've tried it ;)

1st - Sorry caps ;)

2nd- Ever took part on a mediunic session? Some "unbelivers" started to belive or ran when a loved one's spirit shows up and replies correctly to their questions, things that only those 2 people knew. Some others that went to a mediunic session thinking that it was "just a game" ended up by being followed and haunted during quite sometime and i'm sure that several folks at forum can confirm that these events do happen and aren't a fantasy of mine.

3rd - I'm loving this discussion we both are having, :)

Only God Can Judge Me

الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي

I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer

أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ

wHY do YOU OR ANY other person think that He loves humans more than any other of His creations?

I don't. I don't even believe in you god, remember?

Do you know what's a perfect being? Tell me what's a perfect being.

There is no perfection. We can only strive towards perfection. And that is the funny thing: If ANY being ever attains perfection, it will be so mind boggling, gob smacking wonderful, that we will ALL (yes even a non believer like me) be smitten with the urge to pamper to this Being's every wish or command.

Hasn't happened yet, so no perfect being exists. Prove me wrong. PROVE, not just TELL me I am wrong.

---

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

"The 1st and 2nd statement are applied to God, he's impartial and loves all creations in same proportion, for Him, yours or the cow's life have same value to God.

PLEASE tell me he doesn't love me. I've seen what he does to the ones he loves."

wHY do YOU OR ANY other person think that He loves humans more than any other of His creations?

Do you know what's a perfect being? Tell me what's a perfect being.

Only God Can Judge Me

الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي

I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer

أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ

takes a sacriligous bow

thanks :)

and I like your idea- this is my sandbox. either come in and play nice, or go hide under the sand like cat poo.

nasty, judgemental cat poo.

Hehehe qwertyness,

Pretty much one of the best layman descriptions I've heard in years ;)

---

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

We are here to please him and not the other way around. He interferes when and as he/she wants to. Sometimes he will stop the evil magically and at other times he gives a damn. Remember it is HIS/HER rules and HIS/HER playground.

No you have it wrong. It is by HUMAN rules ... there is no evidence that even ONE word in ANY scripture or holy book was ever written or dictated or materialised by god.

Ohhh, I could die any day of a heart attack or something. I smoke, I live an unhealthy lifestyle. So If I drop dead in 5 years time, you might want to believe it is your god's vengeance for my next statement, but believe me, it is just normal biology. So here is my statement:

"This is MY playground. Go play with your other friends, they like your rules. If you DO want to play in my playground, then I have a set of rules for you too."

I might even throw in my latest best seller "Etiquette for Deities: Be nice to your worshipers, they created you".

---

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

here's where I fall back on good ol' Calvin, the best of the crazies:

God hates you and wants you to have a terrible life.

He's pretty much screwed you from the word go- he's already decided who gets into the big party at the end and who doesn't, and nothing we do on earth matters. either he DOESN'T care or is really, really entertained by our suffering. it's like the worst tv show EVER for him, and he's one VERY messed up child. It's like compassion, fun, and a good time killed his parents and he's been sort of messed up about it ever since.

MEANWHILE Jesus is sort of a stoned hippy feel good type, ready to share the love. He's pretty easily duped by us devious mortals, and willing to let us cuddle up against him and sneak into heaven.

Which we can do, because basically, God's a little slow. he won't notice us if we all jump behind Jesus in sort of epic game of human shield.

and before people start emailing the death threats YES I'm being sarcastic and YES that is basically what Calvin was on about. go look it up.

LOL ... you made me laugh so much. I WILL go and read your post about the maid now :)

As for the rest: This is again the argument that we are unable to understand god. This font of wisdom is espoused by none other that HUMAN beings. Not by god himself. Why does he not come and tell me I'm too stupid? And how arrogant can you be to assume that just because YOU can't understand god, I don't have the capacity to?

Uhhmmm the "you" in the previous sentence is not aimed at you personally, but at anyone that wants to claim that because they cannot understand something, NOBODY can.

---

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

evil is not created, like darkness is not created, darkness is lack of light, likewise evil is the separation from good and since God is the source of all goodness when human chose by their free will to disobay God they separated themselves from him thus deserving the death sentence which is a normal consequence of separation from the source of life who is GOD, thus evil was brought into the world..

LOL ... sure it makes sense. "You don't believe in my god. You deserve to die". Spanish Inquisition, here we come.

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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

The 1st and 2nd statement are applied to God, he's impartial and loves all creations in same proportion, for Him, yours or the cow's life have same value to God.

PLEASE tell me he doesn't love me. I've seen what he does to the ones he loves.

---

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

Humans were created into the likeness of God and God only do good things.

Hmmm go read the bible for a change and tell me all the terror and carnage caused by god is good.

Created in the likeness of god? First off, this is so anthropocentric it defies belief. Secondly, if we are god's likeness he surely is pretty screwed up. Thirdly, his angels rebelled against him: Oi, the boss is doing a piss poor job, let's take over. Oh yeah, all very lovely, organized and omnipotent it seems to me.

---

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

evil is not created, like darkness is not created, darkness is lack of light, likewise evil is the separation from good and since God is the source of all goodness when human chose by their free will to disobay God they separated themselves from him thus deserving the death sentence which is a normal consequence of separation from the source of life who is GOD, thus evil was brought into the world..

Hope this makes sence ...

"The best way to predict the future is to create it".

Shamiri, I have never met 'MY' God personally or I would have a lot more to ask him/her. But to answer your question as to how I understand it ...before that let me reframe a small part of your question and say "Is God...." instead of "Is your God...." because I don't posses any claim on God - he/she is for everyone.

Now coming back to answering your question - Yes, 'As you sow; you will reap'. God has indeed left the responsibility of evil doing on us. But that does not make him inept. We are here to please him and not the other way around. He interferes when and as he/she wants to. Sometimes he will stop the evil magically and at other times he gives a damn. Remember it is HIS/HER rules and HIS/HER playground. We willing abide to his rules, our strings are in his hands.

these are good questions. coming from a religious background myself, and since then asking the same questions, i have changed my mind on many things. one thing i have NOT changed my mind on though is that there IS a God, he just isn't whom everything says He is because if anyone could explain him he wouldn't be God, would he. On the other hand to specifically addres the one thing you said re: evil. Our limited human experience and views cannot determine what is "good" and what is "evil". I am not talking about not being kind to others, etc. obviously these are good things. I am talking about what is "evil" in our eyes might not be evil. Does God allow "evil"? Of course, turn on the news and have a good look. However, things He allows to take place in the world shape the future, and since none of us knows what the future holds, who are we to say that the path is "evil"? Hope that makes sense. Religion is exhausting. I'd rather everyone go to MY question about needing a good maid and where to find her :). Cheers, and remember that this thing we call life is simply a journey and that the experiences we have are all part of it. I also like to keep this in mind: everyone has a piece of the puzzle but NO ONE has all of them!

"I will restate them here:

Is you god willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"

As i stated previouslly, in spiritism we don't belive in evil, so, this replies your questions.

If a little child breaks a glasse, is he/she evil? If a litle children kicks you, he/she's evil?

A: No, he/she does it because hasn't leurned yet that he/she isn't supposed to act that way, and in the same way low level spirits aren't evil, just irresponsable.

In the same way, we, spiritists, see reencarnation as a step more into God's direction because the main purpose of any spirit is to reach perfection.

"I agree with the 1st statement. I disagree with the 2nd statement (unless applied to a sociopath or similar). If the 2nd statement was true for normal people, some people would feel it is ok to kill a cow while she is still suckling her calves."

The 1st and 2nd statement are applied to God, he's impartial and loves all creations in same proportion, for Him, yours or the cow's life have same value to God. Do you think God is a sociopath?

Only God Can Judge Me

الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي

I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer

أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ

Humans were created into the likeness of God and God only do good things. If humans decided to do evil, as they were given free will by God, then those humans are defective because they are doing things of which they were not created for. God created humans to spread love and happiness not to sow evil and hatreds.

"Any machines producing something that is not within its specifications are defective machines", as simple as that.

I am off to bed now and will gladly try to answer any more responses tomorrow night. Please do not see my silence for the next couple of hours as a retreat ;)

Sleep well.

Masaa al-khair.

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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

As with most of these discussions, people try to steer away from the original question.

I will restate them here:

Is you god willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

If you want to debate any other religious or philisophical point, please start a new post and I will be happy to debate it there.

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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

If you kill a cow to eat is good for you, but if the cow was milking a younger one, you are bad because you killed his/her mother.

Good/evil changes in accordance to the perspective of each one.

I agree with the 1st statement. I disagree with the 2nd statement (unless applied to a sociopath or similar). If the 2nd statement was true for normal people, some people would feel it is ok to kill a cow while she is still suckling her calves.

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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

First of all 'Omnipotence' means unlimited power. But creating evil is not a power but a defect or an infirmity.

Evil needs a motive force to be actualized in our world. Thus it is not a DEFECT as you are trying to state but as real a thing as love, hate, happiness or a film projected on a wall.

---

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

Some answers:

Yes evolution CAN be seen ... the average increase in intelligence is 3 iq points per decade in most regions. The length of human legs have been increasing over the last couple of decades in most developed countries, according to a study by Phyllis B. Eveleth, James Mourilyan Tanner. We are evolving.

The whole premise of that story rests on duality. In other words, there is no evil, just the absence of good. Duality however is in itself flawed. As an example: There are areas in outer space with no chocolate in them. The opposite must thus be true that there are areas in outer space filled with chocolate. I want to go there :)

For that matter, there is a god out there that puts his followers through suffering to reach heaven, thus there must also be a god out there that does NOT put his followers through that suffering to get into heaven. I like him and would like to have tea with him someday.

---

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

"qatman said Shimiri I am not comparing ...

Shimiri I am not comparing Evil with Darkness, It is you who is assuming things. I am simply trying to cite the similarities. Absence of Goodness in Evil. Can you tell me how someone can be both evil and good at the same time."

If you kill a cow to eat is good for you, but if the cow was milking a younger one, you are bad because you killed his/her mother.

Good/evil changes in accordance to the perspective of each one.

Only God Can Judge Me

الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي

I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer

أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ

First of all 'Omnipotence' means unlimited power. But creating evil is not a power but a defect or an infirmity.

I did not read the whole post but have a comment on the 1st part:

There is no evil in god. He did not create it, right? Humans created it. Right? Now, evil is not a physical "thing" yet it can be created, just as god creates love. Right? This means we created something wholly of and from ourselves. Something god is not able to create? There goes the omnipotence again.

---

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

Ok ... I missed that one. The posting is cut off though so I cannot see the end of the argument, can you post the link here?

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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

Shimiri, Looks like either you need to read all the posts on the links I have posted or you choose to ignore some. the story is a cut-n-paste from one of the posts.

A science professor begins his school year with a lecture to the

students, "Let me explain the problem science has with religion." The atheist professor of

philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new students to stand. "You're a Christian, aren't you, son?" "Yes sir," the student says. "So you believe in God?" "Absolutely. " "Is God good?" "Sure! God's good."

"Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?" "Yes." "Are you good or

evil?" "The Bible says I'm evil." The professor grins knowingly. "Aha! The Bible!" He

considers for a moment. "Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help him? Would you try?" "Yes sir, I would." "So you're good...!" "I wouldn't say that." "But why not say that? You'd help a sick and maimed person if you could. Most of us would if we could. But God doesn't."

The student does not answer, so the professor continues. "He

doesn't, does he?

My brother was a Christian who died of cancer, even though he prayed to Jesus to

heal him. How is this Jesus good? Hmmm? Can you answer that one?"

The student remains silent. "No, you can't, can you?" the professor

says. He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax.

"Let's start again, young fella. Is God good?" "Er...yes," the student says. "Is Satan good?" The student doesn't hesitate on this one. "No." "Then where does Satan come from?" The student falters. "From God" "That's right. God made Satan, didn't he? Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?" "Yes, sir." "Evil's everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything, correct?" "Yes." "So who created evil?" The professor continued, "If God created everything, then God created evil, since evil exists, and according to the principle that our works define who we are, then God is evil." Again, the student has no answer. "Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things, do they exist in this world?" The student squirms on his feet. "Yes." "So who created them?" The student does not answer again, so the professor repeats his question. "Who created them?" There is still no answer. Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace in front of the classroom. The class is mesmerized. "Tell me," he continues on to another student. "Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?" The student's voice betrays him and cracks. "Yes, professor, I do." The old man stops pacing.

"Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen Jesus?" "No sir I've never seen Him." "Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?" "No, sir, I have not." "Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your Jesus? Have you ever had any sensory perception of Jesus Christ, or God for that matter?" "No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't." "Yet you still believe in him?" "Yes." "According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrab le protocol, science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son?" "Nothing," the student replies. "I only have my faith." "Yes, faith," the professor repeats. "And that is the problem science has with God. There is no evidence, only faith.”

The student stands quietly for a moment, before asking a question of His own. "Professor, is there such thing as heat?" "Yes," the professor replies. "There's heat." "And is there such a thing as cold?" "Yes, son, there's cold too." "No sir, there isn't." The professor turns to face the student, obviously interested. The room suddenly becomes very quiet. The student begins to explain. "You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, unlimited heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat, but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit up to 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold; otherwise we would be able to go colder than the lowest -458 degrees." "Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-458 F) is the total absence of heat. You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it." Silence across the room. A pen drops somewhere in the classroom,

sounding like a hammer. "What about darkness, professor. Is there such a thing as darkness?" "Yes," the professor replies without hesitation." What is night if it isn't darkness?" "You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something; it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light, but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word. In reality, darkness isn't

It was allowed first becuz there was not any other women...so god allwed it...and then banned it. so what;)

about the name i dont know but read it in a number of books

I shared the same opinion from this guy from different forum replying to the same question you have raised, and I quote:

Beans4brains: "This is an interesting question. A great deal of people have a varying opinion on this issue.

Personally, i am a christian and this is my belief..... God is both willing and able to prevent evil. He is righteous and just, and there is no evil in Him. Therefore He is not malevolent.

Evil came into the world by choice. If you look at the Biblical account of it's happenings, It originated with the rebellion of the devil, (an Angel) who sinned in wanting to be worshipped as God, and led a rebellion taking 1/3 of the angels with him. He was then cursed, Hell was created for him and those fallen angels as punishment and he was cast down to earth. In the Garden, he tempted mankind to 'sin' (or rebel and disobey) against God. The significance of that part of the story is that mankind was created with Free will. The ability to choose right from wrong. The reason 'eating of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil' was counted as sin, is because God told them not to. They ate, and therefore disobeyed. When it says 'their eyes were opened' it basically means that 'knowledge' of sin and/or evil was made known to them. Their choice to disobey is what brought evil into the world. God kicked them out, and stated the consequences to them for thier actions. When he had originally said, (paraphrase) "Don't eat from that tree or you will surely die" he was informing them of the consequences for disobedience. (the consequences that befell the devil). The devil came to tempt them (to eat the 'fruit' of the tree) because he hated mankind and thier place with God (that essentially mankind had what he no longer did) and hated his punishment therefore wanted to take as many with him as possible. He knew disobedience led to seperation from God. So he wanted mankind to sin (disobey) so that we would therefore have the same eternal punishment as he. Long story short, So, mankind chose to disobey and the consequences were immediate. They realsised they were 'naked' i.e., had knowlegde that they did wrong. Then lied when questioned to cover it up. Then got thrown out of the garden, then later on in the story, the 'first murder' occured as the result of jealousy. So, Therefore evil came into the world through mankinds conscious choice to disobey.

Every religion has a similar story surrounding how evil came into the world. In any case, whether you believe those stories or not, the fact remains that mankind has, individually, and corporatly, free will. That is God given. God does not intervene always (in every situation) where a person chooses to exercise their free will in a destructive manner.

There is among all of the peoples of the world the knowledge that obedience results in reward, and disobedience results in consequence. The decision to obey or disobey (or to sin or not to) is a matter of free will. If God stepped in everytime someone made a wrongful choice.... then mankind would NOT have a free will; nor would the lesson be present of consequence for wrongful action. And how would that benefit us? If we could do wrong knowing that God in his omnipotence would stop the action from happening as well as ensure there were no consequences, how would that profit us? and where would our free will be to choose to do right?

A great deal of opinions vary on this subject; but i think it mostly arises because it is difficult to imagine God as loving when there is unnecessary suffering in the world. BUT, if you think about it, God did not sin or disobey, mankind did. God is not the one causing the destruction, mankind is. therefore the blame should fall on the soul that sins. Blame the rapist for the rape, not God. Blame the theif for stealing, not God. Blame the prejudiced for the hate crime, not God. And the consequences fall on those that choose to do wrong.

I along with a lot of people wonder why bad things happen to good people. I also think, why God did not 'prevent' bad things from happening to me, as if he is God, he could have.

But i am not God, and do not understand his reasoning. I know that He is not the one who hurt me, but i am not going to lie........ sometimes i also wonder why certain things were not prevented. I think that is a question that mankind has always had, and always will have. "If God is gracious and Loving, why is there evil? And why do bad things happen to good people?" I think truly we may never have a definite answer to that until we can all see the big picture; But i do know, that it is better to place blame where blame is due: On the soul of the person commiting the offense, not on God. regardless of the evil that exists, God has promised judgement and punishment for that evil... so therefore, he is not malevolent. If he turned a blind eye and allowed for people to sin and disobey with never a consequence, then he would be malevolent. Though all of this does bring up the question of "If he foreknew through his omnicience that the devil was going to sin, and evil would be in the world, then why even create him at all?" But i do not think that God is evil, nor do i think that he authored the evil, but i think that it is the result of choice made by free will, that falls on us as a consequence for our own choosing to disobey, more than it speaks of God having created it."

I do not believe either god or allah exist, so how can they be scientists?

Sleep well :-)

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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

Ohhh but there are NO similarities between evil and darkness. And no, it is not possible to be good and evil AT THE SAME TIME. you can be (or rather DO) good or evil alternatively, not simultaneously.

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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

I am off to bed. You have not answered my question yet.

Do you agree that God/Allah is a scientist? If yes, then why should he disrupt his experiment?

Sleep well and come up with a good answer tomorrow :)

What was his sister's name? And why was inter-familial marriages banned if it was good in they eyes of god to start off with?

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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

Tsk tsk RnR .... my herrings are my own :-). And no, not that clever. If I was that clever I would have been ruler of the world already and would have abolished religion in public, just like smoking ;)

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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

Ever heard of the Big Bang theory? Or Evolution theory? Not every event in the universe requires a god or humans to make it happen. Lets see: earthquakes, meteors, sun flares, lightning, rain, etc etc. If you argue that every raindrop is created by god and every volcano erruption happens at his bidding, then I can see why he has no time to spend on his followers ;)

This is evolving into an origin of species debate. If you want to start a thread for that or carry on with it in PM I will be happy to talk to you, but the aim of this thread is to discuss god's unwillingness to stop evil ;)

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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

yes alexa

at first adams son married his sister...until it was banned..

Shimiri I am not comparing Evil with Darkness, It is you who is assuming things. I am simply trying to cite the similarities. Absence of Goodness in Evil. Can you tell me how someone can be both evil and good at the same time.

and appears to be supported by all scripture. However, it's merely a red-herring on the trail that Shamiri has laid.

Clever, isn't he? :)

...in a mildly amusing experiment.

That's what Shamiri appears to be leaning towards.

Shamiri I am still reading them. In the meanwhile, I guess you got to define Evil. Evil is not the opposite of Good but absence of good

I have to disagree. Evil requires a deliberate act, not just the absence of a good act.

Evil is an ACT by one human to harm another. To try and compare that to darkness, which has no motive force, is trying to compare a carrot to a squirrel.

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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

Eve was created from Adam's rip....thats what muslims believe.

but can u plz answer me how did t all start? if not by the act of a god then who else my friend?

What is the purpose of your creation WTF are you doing here?

Once that makes you think then go and find the answer that best suits you..lol

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HE WHO DARES WINS

...of course. Everyone knows that (lol)

Shamiri said "if you believe in the creation theory, then where did the women come from that Adam & Eve's sons married?"

Shamiri you are denying that you do not have any purpose, ofcourse you have a purpose, either be that you want to live your life as a free soul and dont think about any thing and basically are not bothered to search for the truth.

That is not a PURPOSE of life. That is the way I WANT to live my life. And your premise that I don't think about anything and don't search for truth is just that: your premise; based on faulty data.

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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

is an omnipotent scientist. Agreed?

Shamiri I am still reading them. In the meanwhile, I guess you got to define Evil. Evil is not the opposite of Good but absence of good. Just like in one of the posts someone mentions a nice story of an atheist professor and his student wherein the student says that darkness is not opposite of light but absence of it. So darkness cannot be created without taking away light.

This argument is the standard creationist concept which says earth was created 4000 or 6000 years ago etc etc. My answer is: Theory of evolution. Humans are constantly evolving.

However, if you believe in the creation theory, then where did the women come from that Adam & Eve's sons married?

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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

As you do not beleive in any thing that means you beleive in every other thing.

There is only two ways to determine the creation either your are anti church or anti God and beleive in the Big Bang or you beleive that some one created you and you will expire soon.

Shamiri you are denying that you do not have any purpose, ofcourse you have a purpose, either be that you want to live your life as a free soul and dont think about any thing and basically are not bothered to search for the truth. The truth of your existence. Are you just another body on this world, wondering unpurposely and one day like others will just perish..

So all I say is that everyone is a believer, the difference what we believe in. Even one who does not beleive beleives that he beleives nothing..:))

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HE WHO DARES WINS

Waahahaha RnR!!! I like the way your mind works :). Nothing wrong with it, as long as people are willing to admit it ;-)

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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

then how did this whole universe started Shamiri? or lets keep it simple...who created your first father (Adam)?

option 3?

Shamiri said;

"3. If the argument is that we have to learn and only those that learn will be rewarded, then life is nothing more than an experiment and god is the scientist."

another sidestep ;) Answering a question with question. No I do not believe ANYONE or ANYTHING created me with a purpose.

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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

Nice sidestep ;)

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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

qatman, did you actually READ those posts?

The most common arguments:

1."it is not god's fault, it is humans who create evil"

2."but what would the purpose be of having such a perfect life?"

3."If God were to "fix" all the "evil" things going on in our world today, we wouldn't learn anything."

4."God is definitely able and will in HIS time, when HE deems the time to be right. "

So let's take them in order.

1. What happened to the argument of "God created EVERYTHING?" If he did not create evil, then humans created it, which means we are capable of creating something that god cannot? Which means he is not omnipotent and we ALL know where THAT sort of reasoning will lead us to.

2. Is that not EXACTLY what god is trying to do? Get us to follow a set of rules so that we can "attain" a perfect life?

3. If the argument is that we have to learn and only those that learn will be rewarded, then life is nothing more than an experiment and god is the scientist.

4. If he is able to but not willing to RIGHT now, he is cruel and has quite a bit less love for all his followers than they think.

So qatman, which one of those do YOU believe is correct?

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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

ok...it s a good question and plz let me clarify 1 thing b4 i do...muslims believe in god and call him Allah...If u are refering to the God of Jesus and Moses then we are talking about the same god...

next...If u ask why God cant prevent evil then I have a better question...ask yourself why were you created in the first place? am sure you believe there is a purpose for everything...

God created this whole universe for a purpose so asking why doesnt he prevent evil is like asking why dosnt God work on my behlaf? He sure can but he created us for a purpose...and we should abide

Muslims believe God created us all to test our believes...and he created heavens especially for that purpose...

Firstly I would say believe in some thing otherwise you will end up believing in every thing, and only then ask or compare.

The three things I memntion above are:-

1. Ones Intilect

The way one thinks and ask the questions. For example who made this world how did this all started etc.

2. Second how you Feel. Your Heart

How you feel about it does believing in some thing give you peace at heart and make you happier?

3. Is your soul..Once that leaves you have no life..

Food for the soul is beleif. There is no doubt that every living thing will die. The question is what will happen to us when we die. What is the purpose of our creation.

Once you ask your self all the above question you start to think and that is the start of you belief in some thing.

Good Luck

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HE WHO DARES WINS

This question has been debated enough times in various forums, I have listed some of them below, There are interesting replies.

There are some questions which are difficult to answer in simple terms, one of them being

Can God create a Stone that he cannot lift? There is no Yes or No for this answer.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080822173951AAIgRaT

http://www.amazon.com/tag/self/forum?_encoding=UTF8&cdForum=Fx3V6J6V0PF1S41&cdThread=Tx347SMN4763FU3

http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=695931

http://water-desert.wetpaint.com/page/Is+God+willing+to+prevent+evil%3F?t=anon

Would you mind PMing me your reply? I am really interested. If not, that is ok too. This is after all, a voluntary debate :)

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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

Ok Alexa, but what do you mean there is not proof? Proof of what?

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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

No body can convert a unbeliever or does not want to be converted because of set mind of Epicurus way of thinking

[img_assist|nid=50852|title=hmm|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=|height=0]

Ohhh, the standard believer attitude. Don't answer the question, attack the questioner.

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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan