The Saudization of Pakistan

I largely agree with you on the above comments. Still, the point that Hoodbhoy was making is that the version of Islam that is becoming more popular is historically very foreign to the much more tolerant version of Islam that was the product of the sub-continent. And I still don't think that the little rant on the pervasiveness of religion had anything to do with him being an expert in Islamic law! He was just stating how things are, not making any particular theological pronouncements...

Sorry for going in another direction. This excerpts was in response to a question that was addressed to me earlier.

Abou the article in my opinion author very tactically diverted the attention and let the reader to believe that what he thinks is the major problem for rise of extremism in Pakistan.

You cannot stop any muslim family to send their kids to learn Quran. To some extend their curriculum need to be checked by the government. But this is not the solution. The reason families let their children to stay in the madarsa is because of 2 reason: 1. Unemployment/Low wages: Families cannot afford the expenses of kid. 2. Lack of Schools: There is no alternate but to let their kid stayed there.

Blaming Islam for every wrong thing is not a solution. Specially when this situation is created by their own. It will only create a retaliation atmosphere.

There is a need to spend more money on education, creating more jobs and providing basic necessaries to their citizens. Young unemployed person is very easy target for extremism. You need to divert their attention to constructive side.

what are you trying to prove with that article...?

wats new in that article, we have all these for 1400 years, and if the followers don't follow it completely, u can't blame it.

You seem to be a bit cranky tonight, so I'll just say nighty night and hope you have sweet dreams :-)

I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM

Not in that article .. but from another article:

"In countries such as Pakistan, where Islam is the state religion and declared to be above the constitution, religion is considered the source of all wisdom and knowledge, including scientific knowledge. This version of Islam, though impossible to follow in its intricate details, is totalistic. It determines what you may eat or drink, how you may dress, the relation between men and women, and is the single-most important determinant of political and social life of the country. No Pakistani airline flight takes off without a prayer relayed over the public address system. A ruling by the highest Islamic court in the country, which the government is finding impossible to implement, has banned interest and decreed that the entire banking structure will have to be revamped. Women by law receive half the inheritance of a man. Furthermore in a court of law, the testimony of two women is equal to that of one man. But, a man may marry up to four women at a time."

this thread is still surviving..... :-)

keep blaming India, but the world is not ready to hear that.. i guess its because India has better reputation than Pakistan. wonder how?

wat ever

apply to monarchies. I would probably say "lead" instead.

I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM

bunch of idiots. Is it the same for you and your country?

Sometimes I feel like since we can vote we should have to take responsibility for our choices. At the same time we don't seem to attract a lot of great candidates in this day and age. I guess that's large;y because politics are a pretty dirty business.

What do you think?

I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM

today my friend was telling me that Americans are nice ppl, but ruled by a bunch of idiots.

i'm not sure, he was pointing you or??? :-)

old dogs and b*tches? Try domesticating them :-P

I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM

some times, i just think, that old [Let's not get blocked by the Telco] and [Let's not get blocked by the Telco] should keep themselves away.

That was the best laugh I had today!

I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM

Two homosexual pakistanis explode during sex....are they suicide bummers???

Oh, sorry wrong thread.

When did Hoodbhoy ever say that he is an expert in Islamic law? He is talking about his culture and society going to shit, and no one taking any responsibility for what is happening. Islamic law has little to do with it.

exiledsaint old times are gone .u people cant try this time i m sure of that ;)

I have met with him late 80's. He is an intelligent and has very sound knowledge of Physics and Particle Physics. Somehow those type of intelligent persons have illusions that they are also champion of Islam and islamic laws. I never saw any Moulvi declaring himself champion of nuclear physics or quantum physics.

I still dont understand why those intelligent people become puppets.

Maybe Pakistan needs British rule back, things were much quieter and civilised in those days...

Ask those who are inhabitants of paradise, who burns it. Its burning started by bruital rule of hindu dogra rule, which humiliated Kashmiris, imposed heavy taxes and massacred Kashmiris. In June 1947, people of Poonch had launched a no-tax campaign against the heavy taxation of Maharaja. To curb the agitation, Maharaja Hari Singh, the last Dogra ruler of the state, ordered the use of brute military force. On August 26 the protesters were confronted by the Dogra-armed forces. The Dogra troops opened bran-gun fire on the huge crowd of 5,000 civilians, martyring and wounding hundreds of them.

Well, the game started in 1948, when pakistan sent'tribals' to capture Srinagar. No marks for guessing who armed/led them.

India responded in kind with the muktibahini and the operation that ended in creation of Bangladesh.

Next major episode was kargil when musharraf sent his troops in fancy dress across the border, not even bothering to bring their bodies back home coz that would reval his ploy.

Not to mention the active recruiting of young fertile minds on both sides of the border.

and the paradise keeps burning....

Pakistan's problems that led to the current situation began before the US got heavily involved there - though that certainly hasn't helped. However, the US is and has been involved in many countries, and they didn't all turn out like Pakistan, now did they? There is also much to be said about the way that the country is run.

History repeats.. Look at the state of the countries US involved. Pakistan will have the same fate.

US wouldnt spend a penny for no reason. They have their own interests. Pakistan has fell for it, the corrupt politicians have sold the country to US.

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- Listen to Many...Speak to a Few -

that India is an innocent lamb in all of this. They support some operations that destabilize Pakistan - and Pakistan returns the favour. What I said was that people like you ON BOTH SIDES of this conflict will make it go one forever, to the chagrin of those who are far more reasonable.

And the blame game is just boring. Why is it that people, especially in this part of the world, like to blame everyone else for their own abject failures ALL THE TIME? It's just so easy. I wish everyone else could get a free pass like that.

There is nothing called terrorism. it is all about achieving the political goal on other countries especially on muslims countries by the pre-owned and developed organization called terrorism organization like Al Qaeda/ Taliban etc etc.

several countries including india are supporting them by money and by weapons to fight.

"Indians Govt. hands are not washed by Milk"

blacksea ur profile mentioned Canadian but i m sure u r not.

actually u dont want to open ur eyes to see the truth.

It's people like you, both in India and Pakistan (or hell, in every conflict that ever happened) that make peace an impossible dream for the reasonable citizens of both of those countries.

beside from above, the fact is that india does not want any neighboring countries to live in peace. Only Pakistan is struggling against his violence, other countries u can see the condition there in. and everybody knows the involvement of indian forces in their countries.

what is going in pakistan is the only dream of india for the last 50 years but india couldnt succeeded. now india has got support from Israel and USA to do that.

Insha Allah nothing will happen to pakistan and all other enemies of Muslims and Pakistan will be destroyed. Inshal Allah (AMEEN)

Clearly most people have not even read this article. The author, first and foremost, blames his co-nationals for their increasingly raging intolerance - not the Saudis per se. He says that those who have spent time working in the Gulf come back to Pakistan and profoundly affect its culture in a way that was largely foreign to that part of the world.

Additionally, it has become payback time for the secular ruling elites who have been legitimizing their largely awful and unpopular leadership through the religious establishment, whom they've also use to fight their proxy wars since the 70s. The elites just never thought that those guys would become anything but the puppets of the masters, but here is where the monetary influx from Saudi has helped greatly.

Hoodbhoy is a very respected nuclear scientist and a prominent social activist who has received numerous awards for both kinds of work - both in Pakistan and abroad (including Doha). Najamss, perhaps your qualifications trump his?

And 7assaant - when you use a source and pass it off as your own, it's very obvious to everyone and doesn't make you look any smarter.

Pervez Hoodbhoy puts his personal agenda ahead of Pakistani cause here. Saudi influence on Pakistan has been both positive and negative. Iys absolute rubbish that thopse returning from Saudia adopt their culture, rather, those returning are the ones who "educate" the local Pakistani population how poorly they are treated by their saudi "brothers". Pakistan does get a lot of forex from expats in Saudia, it cannot afford to loose it. Sauids have been advanced Pakistans position on international front and has provided free oil. Saudi government has also cracked down on banned organizations collecting funds in KSA like Lashker-toiba and their operatives in Saudia rounded and up. If at all their is any Saudi funding of Madrassa its by some people on their own.

najamss: Do you have facts to present that contradict what the author has presented? Do you mean to say that Madrasas in Pakistan do not recieve saudi support?

Do tell me whether the author of the following article is also a biased author.

http://www.thenational.ae/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20091010/FOREIGN/710099834

PM: It was indeed a brilliant idea to splinter pakistan from India.

Saudi has one of the worst societies on the planet...

and are respected nowhere.

As I am educated I dont like to discuss with Barbarians ...

So I step aside with Dracula...

Advice to all...

DO NOT FEED THE Trolls.......

wAIT FOR MORNING.

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--------> God defend me from my friends; from my enemies I can defend myself

To Hitman..........

When some one is discussing about the topic, If you can put your points, you are most welcome.. otherwise you can go and rape your own room mates..... U Know you guys are doing it always with in your selves....

but better be polite to others atleast in public forums....

This really shows the character of your nation..

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--------> God defend me from my friends; from my enemies I can defend myself

Leave him, PM!

DONT FEED THE TROLLS!

Just wait till morning!

A Example related to the direction in which pakistan is moving towards for future.

Yousuf Youhana was a pakistan cricket player, who was denied for captaincy post just becos he is a christian and pakistan cricket board gave him Vice Captain post when he converted himself as Muslim. (Name even changed to Mohamed Yousuf)

Pitty guy is attending all matches with long beard

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--------> God defend me from my friends; from my enemies I can defend myself

on QL because you have limited intelligence and vocabulary???

I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM

This Saudization is a merely propaganda. How can one say that they are imposing their Islamization on Pakistan. If you look at Saudia, they are modernizing their own cities except holy ones.

So which is the easy one, deploy your favorite policies on your own country or the other one?

This author is notorious for its irrelevant and crap articles.... One who know the Pakistani policies, strategies, militarization, and politics, can easily figure it out that this article has no ground.

"PM(...) don't make it look bad due to ur gay actions"

He's history in the morning!

I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM

KHAN357 = fearless555 = hitman999

you. I guess THAT lets you off the hook from being responsible for yourself, too. How fortunate that Pakistanis don't have to take responsibility for anything! I wish my country could get that free pass! :-P

I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM

That's why you need to cite your source. Maybe you didn't get far enough in school to learn this but posting someone's words as your own is basically stealing.

I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM

as you said, Pakistanis are talented enough to turn their country strong... I agree with that. :-)

Its not ur business from where i bring the source..i have to confront.you better watch that clip :P

Alexa!!! Watch the video...and then decide who is dumber than shit...Please keep your hatred away from here.

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---------------------------------------------------------Whenever I find the KEY to SUCCESS...Someone STEALS it.

Ka Pukhtoon ye no dalta daNgg warka: http://www.qatarliving.com/group/pukhtoon-in-qatar

Non-state actors ....

they are hindrance to Indian - Pakistan peace?

they come in the way of socio-economic growth of Pakistan?

they are responsible for huge migration of Pakistanis to better countries due to unrest even in prime city locations?

they intimidate the politicians of Pakistan?

The recent mumbai attack was a means of hindering the peace among the two nations?

I hope Pakistan get its internal priorities right and both countries work on better relationships.

classic music is dyin not becoz of islamization but becoz ppl hate it!!

Pay peanuts & you get Monkeys

(even though your profile say you are Qatari). Do you think you help your nation about by burying your head in the sand and blaming all your problems on the US and India???

ALSO, CITE YOUR SOURCE WHEN YOU COPY AND PASTE AN ARTICLE OR SOMETHING THAT YOU DID NOT WRITE!!!

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/the-newspaper/columnists/14-ayesha-siddiqa-peace-with-india-789-zj-03

I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM

Historically, the governments in both countries have been belligerent towards one another. But the people wanted peace. Now, the tables have turned and while there are always those that understand the worth of peace in the neighbourhood, the rightwing national security community dominates the present discourse. Since the Kargil crisis in 1999 followed by tensions in 2002, both governments have adopted a reasonable stance in handling tensions.

We are at a stage where talking peace is becoming boring. Indians ask why peace should be discussed when Pakistan keeps shipping terrorists to their country. Why, they ask, should their great country that has prospects of becoming a regional and global power come down to the level of a small neighbour that cannot match India’s capacity. Moreover, many in India believe that Pakistan will exhaust itself in this competition. For this category of Indians, Pakistan’s collapse would be something to celebrate.

However, they might be disappointed to know that Pakistan is not about to collapse. It may not have the capacity to fight and faces countless challenges but the national security community can think of many ways to stay alive, at least to fight their rival.

What a sordid state of affairs. It is a fact that the days of bonhomie are over. Peace does not seem possible mainly because there are parties on both sides that benefit from conflict. The Indian prime minister was both wise and rational when he explained to his own constituents that they could not wish away Pakistan because it is a neighbour. The problem lies in thinking in terms of a best pal or worst enemy. A friend from South India labels this a Punjabi fixation. I am always tempted to remind her that South Indians too suffer from the syndrome!

Even the most intelligent Indians get angry when confronted with the question of Pakistan saying that the country is inconsequential where India is concerned. Surely, these people would react differently if they were not bothered about Pakistan.

The Pakistani government might have a myriad problems but it is being prudent in desiring good relations with its next-door neighbour and in saying that India is not a primary source of threat to the country. This certainly does not mean that we surrender our key interests. It means that we recognise that military conflict will not bring any solutions. How do we expect our neighbour to talk about concessions when we continue to allow non-state actors to use our territory to launch attacks on it?

It is also a reality that since the end of the 1990s it was twice that we came close to embarking on the path of peace. Had this venture not been upset, we could have moved to a better level of understanding. The beneficiaries of conflict ask why India should be spared when it used similar tactics against us. The defeat of 1971 is still fresh in the minds of many — especially those who derive benefit from conflict.

The much-despised Gen Pervez Musharraf, who still claims that Kargil was a brilliant idea, later understood that the only viable option was to make peace so that Pakistan could be put on the road to harnessing its human resources and concentrating on socio-economic development. This is when he began to think of and suggest ‘out of the box’ solutions. Had it not been for the laziness and lack of imagination of India’s strategic community, the problem might have been solved then.

New Delhi can always argue that quick action is not possible in the backdrop of its coalition politics and so it could not move fast on resolving minor issues like Siachen or the more doable Sir Creek border issue. The fact of the matter is that the thinking of its national security and political community is almost as myopic as that next door.

One wonders what it would take for strategists in India to realise that the troubled Pakistan has nine lives and will always be there. In fact, a weaker Pakistan will be detrimental to India’s security. So, not talking is not an option that either side has. In fact, not talking is not going to solve any problem at all. It is foolhardy to imagine that there could be a way to block out the bothersome neighbour as the rich do with the poor. Or imagine that the problem will wither away on its own. It would be wise to pray for sanity to return to the strategic community on both sides. Since neighbours can’t be wished away, a better future can only be constructed through cooperation and not ‘mutually assured destruction.’

i can vouch for the fact that, Pakistan is far better than this. News always fly around the fact that as long as Pakistan is an enemy of India, the Indian Subcontinent will not progress at a faster rate.

Where are the democratic pakistanis, you guys deserve better life in pakistan. These extremists are ruining the brotherhood shared among Pakistan and India.

Can somebody give a single answer to why India and Pakistan cant be better neighbours???

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Watch carefully.Because this video has been deleted several times from youtube.

All the abject failures of that particular state must be exclusively due to others! They have nothing to do with Pakistan itself and how it's governed!

What is up with this pattern of thought? It has become sooooo prevalent throughout much of the Islamic world. Everything is the fault of someone else, and no one ever takes any responsibility for what they screw up just fine on their own!

The guy who wrote this article would strongly disagree. He seems to think that there is a little too much blame being laid all around, and to little responsibility taken by his co-nationals, who tend to bury their heads in the sand and, much like you, only blame the US for all their misfortunes.

It's also rather hard to see how the latest developments in Pakistan are aiding US interests (though, to some extent, the US is partly responsible for this mess due to their support for the mujahadeen during the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, among other things).

I forget to mention that its not only usa somehow india is also helping them.

everywhere in the world is America's fault, because everywhere else is perfect. :-P

You poor baby, what will you do if you ever have to take responsibility for anything yourself? :-/

I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM

its not very easy to blame every other person than self, for something happening in your own home.

Pakistanis are intelligent people who i am sure is concerned about their future. But this sorry state is worsening by the day.

This is all pre planned but usa and now they implementing wats so ever happening in pakistan they are the one to be blamed.

a hard time since someone got the brilliant idea to splinter off from India and create a separate nation. You can't really blame Pakistan's long dark history on Indian weapons. Well, you can; but it won't wash with anyone who has studied history.

I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM

A big problem for Pakistan, besides the paucity of reasonable long term goals, has been the fact that all the (largely secular minded) ruling elites since Zia-ul-Haq have tried to legitimize their rather unpopular rule through alliances with the religious establishment. They got them to fight their proxy wars, and have always thought that these guys pose no threat to the said elites. But Saudi influence has been doing wonders over the past twenty years, and it looks like those proxy wars have gotten a little closer to home...

Brit I think I should refrain from making any comment on that, I am always curious to hear what a common pakistani person has to say about India but guess they don't have much tolerance for my comments.. Over and out from this thread...

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein

The problem has been that Pakistan's foreign policy has been wayward apart from its alliance with China.

Pakistan has also allowed itself to be manipulated by outside powers to the detriment of its long term goals.

India has been more pragmatic and taken a strategic approach - to its benefit. However, given the chance , India would not have hesitated to "do away" with Pakistan, the first chance it got :O)

That's the thing though - the article largely blames Pakistanis who are suddenly keen to adopt what is largely a foreign version of Islam. He explicitely says that the 'madresas' are only one factor among others. Of course the Saudis exert political and financial influence wherever they can, as any other country that is in the position to do so. But the cultural aspect that comes with this influence seems more and more welcomed in Pakistan by much of the population, which is what the author finds deplorable.

I'd also disagree on the brain drain. Of course the majority are unskilled labour - but the minority is very important, and includes lots of professionals such as hundreds of Pak doctors who work in Saudi, even though there is a sever shortage in their home country.

Majid truth hurts but remains the truth... By the way since I live with people from Pakistan ever since I moved to the gulf, my opinion is made after listening to what they have to say about the situation back home..

You want to hear what I have to say about Indian politicians, you can start a thread on that and I will tell you. That will not be very pleasant too.

For now I will leave you with one comment, Pakistan is going under hard time because it always thought the threat to pakistan will come from the eastern border but it came from their west. Peace..

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein

sandeepkadian US is even helping india as us all money is going in ur there pocket at least we dont take money from india so why do u have plain? u think india has best leaders in the world?? get a life pakitan is just going under hard time coz india is

supplying weapons to owr enemys so just keep ..

peace :)

It is all too easy to use the "madrasa" line and blame the Saudis. Yes, the Saudis do sponsor their form of Islam, but they also do a lot more.

They exert political and financial influence also. The issue of brain drain to Saudi is not a major one. Most of the Pakistanis in saudi are low to middle class workers.

Pakistan provides "advisors" to the Saudi Navy and Airforce.

The USA uses Saudi as its proxy in the Middle East to ensure that its aims are furhered.

Politics makes for strange bedfellows..

Pakistan has the worst leaders in the world. George Bush gave them a good run but they managed to stay top. As long as Saudi money is going in their pocket, they don't mind Saudization or any other zation.. Common man has been suffering and will continue to suffer..

Just my humble opinion..

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein

The article makes the argument that much of Saudi's aid goes to causes that do not benefit the general public (and, in fact, do quite the opposite in the long run). In terms of employment provided to Pakistanis, the dark side of that, as always in these cases, is brain drain - since it is not just construction workers that come over to work in the Gulf.

Of course there is the oil, and everyone in the world is willing to do cartwheels for that. So that's definitely hard to argue with. But not every country that purchases oil at a cheaper price from the Saudis is so actively importing the Gulf worldview to their own land (i.e. Bangladesh being one that immediately comes to mind).

Pakistan needs cheap oil from Saudi, as well as covert financial assistance.

Why does Pakistan need Saudi, barring remittances, which are, admittedly, large, but which, as the author argues, create more problems than they are worth in the end?

Its all a matter of convenience. The USA and the Saudi need each other as do pakistan and Saudi.

well you can't just leave it there - which facts are wrong? What are the correct facts? and how do you know they are wrong?

"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365

not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the

many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers

were given. Satan - 10."

The writer I believe has got all his facts wrong

Here in yet another embarrassing moment, Obama (back to camera) bows to the king of Saudi Arabia.

Bush Bowed Too

a country lost in time.

"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365

not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the

many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers

were given. Satan - 10."

Saudi militancy and Saudi money has spread far and wide over the last 30 years and not just in Pakistan....