Slutwalk protests

I agree with Ken Clarke for once.

We have had many cases in the UK where a girl has been pissed- even sober, kissed a guy, went to bed with him and then ended up calling rape. His name has been slurred, her name has been protected.

Enough is enough - if a girl gets pissed or even sober, gropes a guy, ends up having sex; even though it's bad sex - that's not rape. That's a bad sh*g.

These girls that get into bed with a guy, and have 'bad sex' and then call rape are not doing any favours to women that are snatched off the street, threatened and then brutally assaulted.

Rape as defined is 'forced sex' - girls or women that snog men, fondle and excite men and then call 'rape' are abusing the system.

You went with him, you kissed him, you fondled him, and you went home with him….what do you expect? Ice cream and fairy cakes?

This evening, The Justice Secretary Ken Clarke was forced to issue an apology after suggesting that 'date rape' was less serious than 'proper rape'

There is a bit more to the story Britexpat. The town is small (Cleveland, Texas, not Cleveland the big city in Ohio) and dominated by a couple of families. Many of the accused men are related and the girl is from an opposing family. The accused are also related to members of the police and other authorities, a couple of whom made this off-colored remarks. The media seized on these remarks without placing them in the family feuding context.

If these people had a strong beliefs, then the beliefs would stopped them doing this act, but also you should consider the believer strength in his/her belief varies. Some are strong and some are weak.

It all depends on

This shows that its a big wide world out there and no matter which part of the world you're in - you will always find people with such beliefs..

Those people all need to be raped themselves.

It just goes to prove that there are a lot of people out there with different perspectives ....

How the hell can the town be divided? The girl was 11 and there were 18 of them! I don't care if the girl was naked, she didn't deserve to be raped by 18 men! What kind of sick animals are they?

Just to get the topic back on track a little ..

It began when a Toronto police officer commented that “women should avoid dressing like sluts in order not to be victimized”.

Many a time, the authorities and "people" blame the victims of sexual assault for initiating/inviting it.

A case in point is a current sexual-assault case in Cleveland where 18 men have been charged in the gang rape of an 11-year-old girl. The town remains divided on whether the girl, who dressed older than her age, and her mother were partly at blame.

So, which side are you on ?

Not much good it will do if that person's born a sociopath.

and educate these people to make them better persons.

Lot's of things could have made these people become rapists. There upbringing probably being the biggest part of it, but I don't doubt genetics plays a part as well.

Some people are simply born sociopaths and sadists.

which made these people to become Rapist right?

Ofcourse you agree every thing to evolve or to be created must have a thing to makes it evolve or created.

Nothing can come from its own, a person who makes a mistake toward others and then comes and appologize why?

probably he realized his/her mistake, how?

His/her mind, brain, feeling, concious are the driving force for him/her to go and appologize.

Here a simple very short story:

One is walking in the desert and suddenly he saw a watch, a normal person will say some one must passed over here, a non normal person or insane will say no the land might produce watch.

I don't think rapists care what happens to their wives, sisters or daughters.

the first thing which leads to Rape is the lack values, education, those people who rape women forget that tomorrow some one can come and rape their wives or daughters or sisters.

I remember a story where a teenage girl was making fun of a small girl 2 yrs old (The two years old girl was having a speaking problem), the teenage girl Ms. Y got married later and got pragnant and brought a new born, when the new born grew up and became 2 yrs old, the same problem came and Ms. Y remembered what she was doing before to the small girl.

There are 1100 rapes per day happening in Congo as per a study published in the American Journal of Public Health.

I wonder what women wear in Congo to attract this.

Does anyone else remember this famous case?

Italian Court: Jeans Do Not Prevent Rape

(AP) Italy's top criminal court has upheld the sexual assault conviction of a man who argued that the victim's jeans prevented the attack. The court provoked outrage a decade ago by ruling that it was impossible to rape a woman wearing jeans.

The Court of Cassation rejected an appeal by a 37-year-old man convicted by a lower court for sexually assaulting a teenager. The man claimed that it would have been impossible for him to carry out the attack because the girl had been seated and wearing jeans at the time.

The court said that jeans were "no chastity belt."

"The fact that the girl was wearing jeans was not an obstacle," for the Padua man, whose name was not released, to touch her, the ruling Monday said.

In 1999, the same court overturned a different rape conviction, saying it is impossible to forcibly remove a woman's jeans if she resists. The case, which drew condemnation from across Italy's political spectrum, had involved a driving instructor and an 18-year-old.

The court had accepted the defendant's argument that it is impossible to take off someone's jeans "without the collaboration of the person wearing them" and that the woman must have cooperated.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/07/22/world/main4282997.shtml?source=RSSattr=World_4282997

Yes, Pilgram there has been no proven statistical correlation between a woman's attire and susceptibility to rape. It's the fantasy of defense attorneys.

There's no evidence to say that not dressing provocatively protects women from rape. As you said rape happens everywhere, in countries were women wear mini skirts and in countries were women wear burqas.

There is no proven correlation between what a woman wears and her chances of being raped.

As pointed out by many on here – rape has little to do with ‘what a woman wears’; if rape is the intention- it will happen regardless of what a woman wears.

Rape is about control, power and humiliation and happens in EVERY country. So none of us can say we don’t have sick people amongst us.

Does what a woman wears affect men? We would be very foolish if we denied it did not. Why do strippers and prostitutes dress in a certain way? To attract men of course!

Men are visual creatures and they love and ‘get off’ to a sexy looking woman.

So of course a woman dressing in a provocative way will always get attention from men.

Women who do dress in a ‘sluttish’ or ‘provocative’ way will always get ‘unwelcome attention’ or in some cases ‘welcome attention’.

Do they deserve being raped? Of course they do not.

Yet as most women know, dressing in a certain way invokes a reaction and may entice certain men – so instead of ‘pushing’ the slut walk – perhaps it should be a case of protection and not pushing this issue and sending the message that actually to be lady like and be demure could actually help the ‘cause’ of non-rape?

Women who dress in see through tops and very short skirts and stockings and suspenders know this excites men so why do it? They are asking for trouble. They will get pursued and as we don’t really know who are the ‘horny natural men and admiring and want a chance’ and those that rape; surely a sign of strength is avoiding the catalyst.

I am old fashioned in my views and some may say that men need to change how they view women – however- we women have a duty of care to ourselves and if NOT dressing in a ‘slutty way’ reduces sex attacks surely we have a duty to our ‘sisters’ to dress in a more demure way.

We can push all we like for the right to wear what we want – but in pursuing that wish we invite and do get trouble.

In other words – don’t invite unwanted attention. Not saying at all that ALL men are rapists but we know how they think and we have done for years.

For men it is a visual thing and if you don’t want attention don’t advertise it. It is conundrum, we want to appear attractive but we don’t want the attention.

So if you want to do that, do it! But as women we should know that taking that stance comes with a risk.

Slutwalk protest update from CNN for those who are interested:

Headline: 'SlutWalk' protests against sexual violence go global

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/americas/05/10/canada.slutwalk.protests/index.html?hpt=T2

the majority agrees that these porn websites are one of the factors that create and increase the number of Rapist.

you do not the consequences of the fire, it may burn one, it may burn many, so the best thing is perventing the fire from happenning.

Naked man and woman and sexy positions are promoting rape act, these websites are one of the main reasons to destroy your society, because a teenage who is between 12 and 17 yers old can be affected easily and according to psychologists there are some steps which will lead to the rape act and it is as follow:

Step 1 curiosity to look at these websites

Step 2 r]liking to view these websites again

Step 3 addiction

Step 4 Practicing and here there is a big chance that rapes will take place.

There are some dirty girls who work for these dirt websites from their home and these girls need to be told that what you do is no good.

How are you doing today?

just came here to say...lol!

by now, you all know what i meant with my metaphorical first comment.

Here are my comments for you and I am sure that majority agrres with it, this was said by Dr. Zaghloul El-Naggar

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaghloul_El-Naggar

http://www.elnaggarzr.com/en/index.php

Some where on the net I saw the following and I think it was said by him, and here it is

1. Human can not live without freedom

2. Freedom without limits causes chaos

3. Chaos destroys communities

The point is that respecting others rights is one their rights which you should always consider.

Join the club WK :S

OMG I was being sarcastic but you had that already in your signature line???

I am a bit uncomfortable right now :(

for both man and woman.

This invintion already exist and you can find topics related to it in my signature link.

what woman wears.

Civilization is about respect, we are for example more civilized than Nic because we do not criticize the western woman for what she wears, it is their culture, we criticize those who want the Muslim woman to be like a western woman.

It is not a shame for the Arabic woman to be like a western woman in the terms of open minded and having intellegent discussion.

See for me Civilization is about respecting each others and living in peace and not trying to change some beliefs and culture.

A woman or man can not be said that she/he is bad because of the dress, we must judge based on the acts.

As long as your act does not show loyalty and responsibility.

A western woman who does her duty towards her husband and children caring and never cheat her husband is better than a woman who wears a veil and does not respect her husband and does not take care of her children, and vice versa.

Why can't all women wear a chastity belt.. Come on make it easy for us not to rape you..

Shouldn't it be up to the woman to decide if she wants to reveal her body?

... and let me assure you, SA, even if she is fully veiled the "animal" will still try to get her! He knows what's 'inside'. So, you have to lock her up, let her see nobody, and she is safe. Don't even tell anybody that you have a wife at home. It's the men who are bad! They rape!

I'm referring to the first comment by Nic. where he claimed that we are far behind to discuss such an issue.

This got me to the zone where the "Civilized" world is shamelessly setting the rules and criteria of "Civilization" to simply being a senseless animal when it comes to revealing women body. If we don't agree with that, we are simply retarders.

You won't get jealous, SA. You will get angry. But not against your wife. Against the other "animal" who thinks he can take what isn't his.

When you said "have no jealousy on your wife"!! Do you want the man to let his wife an animal female in the jungle where any male animal from the same type can fuck her?

Or you will get jealous and protect her?

Please clarify.

"This post is to high-tech and advanced for this part of the world. Come back in 700 years and probably then it can be rationally discussed"

Yes actually this is high-tech to me

"Get Naked, Walk like a slut, have no jealousy on your wife / sister.......etc." to be civilized or other wise get accused to be a fundamentalist

Fatima, the protest does work. In the past few years in Canada the police have changed their attitudes towards rape victims dramatically. Especially in regards to prostitutes who have claimed to be raped. Anything that raises awareness of the issue is effective.

Can you explain?

Please.. I'm not embarrassed easily..

let me have some figures from real papers..

As many as you want :o)

You thought as much... britexpat have a read of this www.frontpagemag.com western muslim racist rape spree! AND I COULD GO ON AND ON but i don't want to embarrass you further

Thanks .. i thought as much :o)

I agree - rape is wrong in any country.

There are many links, i'm sure you are capable of finding them yourself. Bottom line is rape is wrong in whatever country it happens in and it will take women in this country to change the way they are treated , so all you middle eastern women out there get educated and stand up for your rights to more freedom and to be able to wear what you like without being victimised!

"Also if you look at the number of rapes that occur in the west you will see a large number of them are committed by people who are not born in our countries."

interesting.. Can you please give me a link for the figures... thanks

Well brit if you had read a comment I made earlier i said in response to Tinka that this issue in this country is related to religion because of the way these people are taught how to treat women and what to think of women who wear or not wear certain things. The rape issue is also about women being able to wear what she wants and not get labeled or raped. Also if you look at the number of rapes that occur in the west you will see a large number of them are committed by people who are not born in our countries.

you are perfectly correct. There is more freedom, peace and justice than in the Muslim world today.

the article and the movement is not about Muslims or christians or Hindus or Jews. it is about the rights of women in Canada and other parts of the world.

Also, I must disagree about the rape issue. If you read the article, the whole point is that in many cases, the Police or authorities do not believe the women and thus refuse to prosecute the culprit. In many cases, the women don't report the rape because they are fearful of being victimised and stigmatised. Nearly 80% of rapes in the West and probably around the world including muslim countries are commited by those known / related to them.

Alter Dusty yes we do have rapist in the western world but rarely is it you father brother or other male relative that commits the crime like it is in the muslim world. In the west men are tried and imprisoned for their crime with DNA or other hard evidence. Here if (and i stress if) it is reported it is very rare that someone is convicted and if you are connected to someone of importance well then justice is never served. The western world is far from perfect but is a place where you can enjoy more freedom and peace than the muslim world today.

SA

i didn't ask him for their dirty past, i'm referring to his bright XXI century.

They do not look at the European old ages, any how this is not my topic about.

I am happy because I have defeated Nic in a very logical way and with good manners.

well, after reading thought destructive posts of NIC, I assume in western world particularly in CANADA, US, BRITAIN, FRANCE people are not familiar with the words "Rape, Rapist", and they are living completely in a peaceful world where women are never happen to be victimized of rape, sexually assaulted and all the bloody news about this devil work only they receive from Muslim world, where people are still living in 700 years old society.

Get a life dude, from where U are getting ur facts?

Just wondering if guys want to start a protest against their sexual exploitation (Even more difficult to prove than a woman's rape), what will it be called.

Unfortunately tinker this topic has everything to do with religion in this country. The peoples beliefs in this country do not condone the showing of any flesh or hair for that matter so they would believe that what a woman wears would definitely effect wether or not she asked to be raped. In my experience I find the men here and a lot of the women very rude .The men look me up and down and smile and sometimes make gestures. Now I've lived in another muslim country for 6 years so my wardrobe is full of long ,loose fitting pants and long sleeve shirts, yet because i am western or maybe because I have my hair uncovered I am stared at. So if I was raped would I have asked for it because I had my hair uncovered? or because I was western ? Would a Muslim answer that!

Pilgram doesn't work in Qatar:-p

Jaanvi, i do not think ANY Muslim would ever openly say that for fear of being killed for doing that kind of thing.

Now, tell me this...are there Muslims in Europe who do not have an ounce of respect for the religion that is common there?

Let me answer you...YES, there are.

So, I think disrespect exists everywhere.

BUT, saying one does not want to be Muslim is, IMHO, not disrespecting Islam, as much as not wanting to be Christian,Jew, Hindu, Shia etc. is disrespecting those religions.

And I also do not see anything wrong with saying that either.

Besides, what has working in Qatar to do with not wanting to be Muslim??? I don't remember that being mandatory to work here.

..for a while i thought the signal or the net is playing tricks on me..

..i click on a link (which i thought was religous) and it keeps bringing me back to frenchieman's "slutwalk" thread..and i even used the search bar..

muslims dont criticize or mock if they stay in christian

country

Well, not wanting to be a Muslim does not mean one is disrespecting the religion, non?

If a Muslim lives in a Christian country one would not expect him to turn Christian out of respect for the religion, non?

Yep, all threads seem like one going for a dune bashing and seems not many places to do that here so they almost always follow the same route (religion, fixation) and then comes back home after a while...:)

Hang on...this thread was about rape and now is about Jesus?

Wow...only on QL..lol

No Mandi

you are right and wrong, please see my previous comment, they are one but also separate

Jaanvi,

Jesus is mentioned in the old testaments in prophecies

JJJ, you might need to attend church a little more frequently, lol. Jesus certainly IS God!

Mandi

To be honest this is a very hard concept for most christians to get their head round but they are one entity and also separate. What they say is that God so loved the world that he gave his only son to deliver us from evil

Jaanvi

Jesus is NOT God - he is the son of God. This is why I would recommend not to comment on something if you do not have the full facts. Some people may not like it.

Jaanvi

not true - there are many aspects of the old testament which are definitely not advocated in the modern christian world:

'eye for an eye' is one of them

please do not comment on what you may not understand, people may find it offensive

Did the campaign reach its objective?Did they see ANY desired results? if not will it be of any use having such protests all over the nation?This is what matters IMHO.

well said pilgrim - and if you ever saw any Vicar at a sunday church service you could say they were wearing a dress www.request.org.uk/main/churches/anglicans/vicar01.htm

As I said not sure that that aspect of the bible is fit for purprose in todays world

Jaanvi

most people do not go by the old testament anymore as it is full of ideology that does not suit today's christian thinking

Well that really depends, since when the Bible was written men didn't even wear pants.

jjj75, that is partly a reason as well. Also, during the Renaissance and Middle ages according to social habits only unmarried women could bare their heads. Since nuns are married to God, they covered their heads.

It's not a rule at all Jaanvi. In the gospel of St. Paul it says that a woman should cover her head while at prayer, so since nuns are always at prayer, they cover their heads. No different than priests.

However it's dropped out of style quite a bit in recent decades and very few orders of nuns were habits anymore.

That's why almost everyone at the Royal wedding was wearing a hat.

That one of the main principle is that any human being is free for his belief.

But once someone decide to follow a certain belief then he/she must follow the belief he/she chosen.

As we say take it or leave it and also it is also good to apply live and let live.

Jaanvi

Nuns cover themselves for a different reason than Muslim ladies. My understanding is that to wear plain clothes etc means that they are not disctracted by their appearance (ie being vain). The same way that they used to have to shave their heads so they were not distracted by 'dressing' their hair.

This still rambing on?? Thought we had done this to death yesterday

Go to the link in my signature and you will find many answers for many questions.

It will defintly helps you and specially Nic.

We said it many times and we will repeat it till tomorrow and after tomorrow

the act RAPE is not accepted by good people, but the act RAPE is the product of many things, let me give you example, your body fubar is the product od bones, skins, meat, blood, cells, etc.

The point point also can be resembelred as there is more than one direction to go home, some are safe and streets are good and other directions are not safe.

Yeah, people are free to believe whatever they want, and whether or not it disgusts me is immaterial. I just find it so ironic that the people who are always citing bits and pieces of religious texts are the ones who do so much to turn me off their religion.

Brings back memories of that insane nutbag Eco-Savvy.

I've had as much as I can take of listening to people justify the actions rapists, because a girl was wearing some lycra.

I'm outta here.

No Jaanvi, but it doesn't say not to either.

I agree that this sickens me as well Fubar, hence why I'm not and will never be a Muslim. However, from my experience there are plenty of little Chinese and Korean children learning that dogs rank above women according to Confucious and plenty of Christian African men being taught that the way to change a lesbian is to "corrective rape" her. Women still have a long way to till we can feel safe, regardless of where we live.

fuber, Does the Quran tells only the women how to dress up or behave?

This is not vey true because some people will understand what that religion is asking for and they will respect it and this is highest level of civilization when you respect others with disregard to their religion.

No, Pilgram. I'm not just blaming Muslim men.

But when Muslim MEN endless cite the Koran about how a woman should cover up and how a woman should wear certain clothes and how a woman should be totally responsible for ensuring another man doesn't rape her, I have difficulty taking what these so called religious people have to say.

It sickens me to the stomach to think that in some people's twisted minds, it was the girl's fault for wearing a skirt that some man raped her.

What sort of mothers and fathers do these people have, if that's what they teach their kids??

fubar...which religion are you talking about? If its Islam, then what does Islam have to do with a protest in Toronto? Are Muslims in Power in Canada? Do Muslims dictate the law there? The last time I checked...London, North Texas or Vancouver were not Muslim States.

Fubar, do you honestly think it's just Muslim men who say that? I've heard men say that the world over. These women are marching in CANADA to get POLICE OFFICERS to stop saying that. Like it or not, the idea that a woman "asked for it" is still pretty prevalent in many cultures.

I don't think segregation of the sex's has anything to do with whether someone will become a rapist or not. Either a boy is raised to respect women or he isn't or he is born with the urge to rape or he isn't. You can raise a rapist in any society (which is evident since rape occurs in ALL societies). Generally anyone who is able to commit such a crime suffers from some kind of psychosis anyway, as he's able to look over the fear and pain he's causing the woman.

Yes there are cases where men can be caught up in group mentally and may go against what they've been brought up to believe,

As long as people of a certain religion continue to say stuff insinuating that when a woman wears revealing clothes, she is partially to blame for being sexually assaulted... people will continue to mock that religion.

It did not divert it is only clarification for Nic and we all know him.

I just wanted to enlighten him.

We have came with many good points from this article, where many points were clarified.

Nic fired and got backfired.

Nic I scored a goal in your goal? You made a foul in the 18 yard on me and the refree decided to give you a red card and give a penalty kick, I performed the penalty kick successfully and scored a goal.

Nic...You said:

besides the psychos living all over the world from all backgrounds, males who are brought up, completely segregated from females, are less prepared to coexist and share the same space with women in “plain modern western” cloths (in bikinis, as an extreme example) in a respectful manner.Who has not here witnessed certain type of men, with a certain background, right here in Doha, salivating, expressing themselves loud as desperately sexually hungry beast almost to the point of approaching any regular non Muslim women who happened to pass by in the evening in one of the many Doha street populated with 99.99% of men?

And then:

Saying this is not generalizing as many many with that same background but with a little more education or perhaps a more shy personality won’t display such behavior so typical in countries with the same cultural foundation!

Now, is it because of complete segregation or lack of education? Does the solution lie in educating them or to have mix gender society?

I'm from the same background (completely segregated from females & a little educated) & have lived for long in the same localities in Doha that you pointed, with the same "hungry beasts" but never tried or think of approaching a 'non Muslim' woman with such intentions. And, I'm not the only one...there are many like me. Do you mean, its our shy personality that has stopped us from displaying such behaviour?

Brilliant..

A topic that focuses on rape , where the article is speaking of Police attitude to raped women is turned into islam bashing..

love it :o)

please go to the sight and search on the net for

THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE SHEE'AH AND MUSLIMS WHO FOLLOW THE SUNNAH

you will know more.

because you are trying to tell things and show others you are well educated and having knowledge, and you are doing your best but unfortunately it is in the reverse direction.

There are big differences beween Sunni Muslims and Shia, on the net there is a good websit and I quote the following:

"This allegation however, finally found a place of acceptance in the capital of the previously Iranian (Persian) Empire, Al-Madayen, more easily than in the other regions of the Islamic Empire at that time, especially since Al-Hussain, second son of Ali, was then married to the daughter of the last Iranian Emperor."

You can copy the above qout and you will find the website.

Straight Arrow,

you appear to display strong signs of being possessed by the devil... now you are attacking your brothers "Shee-at"!

tsc tsc, shame on you, that is betrayal in public in front of so many westerns, how could you be so bad?!

chocaholic,

Those pearls and many more are driven by the same divine source. The impact on people and societies is still today in the XXI century, an enormous human cost to today's world!

The sad news is they wont change any time soon, cause its originator crafted the spell very well, making it a sin to challenge it and must be blindly followed with no questions!

It will fade away, but history tells us that it will take another 700 years before the follow3ers can start thinking for them and dare to put in cause…

Civilizations evolution, yet again in parallel but not in non simultaneous cycles!

a very strange person in my opinion and he is Shee-at, not Sunni Muslim, and he does not represent Muslims, the majority of Muslims are Sunni.

Shee-at has many different beliefs opposite of Sunni Muslims.

They have what is called "Zawaj Al Mot-ah", i.e. Joy marriage which does not need contract or witnesses.

There are so many strange beliefs of Shee-at which needs days to speak about.

As you Nic Judged and put this Iranian guy in the same boat of Muslims shows how narrow thinking you have and you prove that you belong to socio-culture reality of certain societies.

Yes, they seem to be coming thick and fast at me, these examples :)

Another related one that shocked me recently was about having witnesses to 'prove' a rape. What???

Please understand this is applicable to both amn and woman is some extent, we are talking about the acte rape.

chocaholic,

The article you posted is yet another illustrative example of the type of mentality, which is a product of the socio-culture reality of certain societies.

While a rape requires a rapist and a victim it is an act that occurs on it's own SA. There is nothing a woman can do that gives a man the right rape her. A rapist carries this sickness in himself and it is he who decides to carry it out, what the victim is wearing, how old she is, how many men she has previously slept with, does not matter, only that she is in the right place at the right time.

Noting a woman says or does justifies rape.

And nothing a woman wears or doesn't wear says what type of woman she is.

Don't want this to be construed as flippant (pretty please!), but here's a gem of a quote http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/apr/19/women-blame-earthquakes-iran-cleric

(Yes, this is old news, but I only saw it a few days ago)

Now that's too much guilt for a tube top to handle

:o)

Well, SA, that is why this protest was staged, to raise awareness.

See, the principle that is applied in some places that women must be covered/ behave in a certain way to protect themselves does not ring true in many other places.

Women, as men, should have the freedom to decide for themselves without worrying for their safety and well being.

I believe a person that takes advantage of another due to what the OP wears is wrong,plain and simple....and they know it too.

Seriously, if a woman screams and cries, that kind of indicates she is not particularly happy, non?

So, education is,IMHO, not what is needed....as those people KNOW they are doing wrong. They are simply abusive a holes.

As tinkerbell10 well said, I am wasting my lunch break, but let me leave some food for thoughts.

this will shock some for the fact that I dared to write here what so many of us know and have personally witnessed: besides the psychos living all over the world from all backgrounds, males who are brought up, completely segregated from females, are less prepared to coexist and share the same space with women in “plain modern western” cloths (in bikinis, as an extreme example) in a respectful manner.

Who has not here witnessed certain type of men, with a certain background, right here in Doha, salivating, expressing themselves loud as desperately sexually hungry beast almost to the point of approaching any regular non Muslim women who happened to pass by in the evening in one of the many Doha street populated with 99.99% of men?

Saying this is not generalizing as many many with that same background but with a little more education or perhaps a more shy personality won’t display such behavior so typical in countries with the same cultural foundation!

This is a fact.

Taboo? Yes, but a fact that not many dare to address, not even here on an anonymous forum!!!!

fubar, Straight Arrow blames the woman for being beautiful and not hiding it. She has to reserve it for her promiscuous husband. Only he is allowed to see her.

Is it just me, or is someone on this thread justifying and explaining rape by saying that because a woman looks pretty, she is somehow to blame because a man can't keep it in his pants?

I really don't want to misread what's being said, but it seems pretty clear to me that someone is grasping for excuses as to why a man may have raped a woman, and how the woman is in part to blame.

Why are only promiscuous women sluts? What about promiscuous men, SA? How do you call them?

But does rape happen by itself?

Those whi rape need to be educated and addressed, and at the same time the girls who act like sluts or want to be sluts.

nomerci, there are things we can change and things we can not because we do not have the power.

Preventing the fire from happening is better than stopping it after it happens.

No SA, it IS the fire that needs to be stopped in the case of rape.

No matter what the circumstances, rape is NEVER justified.

without these things fire will not happen whether the house is new or old, fire will only happen if the causes to have a fire are met.

Can we blame the fire? Can we question the fire?

Or

Can can we question the causes which caused this fire?

I think fire itsel can not be questioned, but the causes yes.

brit, but isn't that exactly what I said too?

If people read the actual article , they will understand what its all about..

The bottom line is that even "Sluts" can be victims of rape ...

Pilgram, the term slut may come from what a prostitute may be called. And if a woman dresses like what generally a prostitute is thought to dress like and behaves in the same or similar manner, she may be termed a slut. Now, is that fair, no, it is not. But it is common and to a certain degree understandable,IMHO.

ok, how about this then.

A woman is in a club, she meets a guy, they flirt etc. Then he offers to walk her home. They get a little physical, she does not want to go further, but he does and rapes her.

This can happen with a woman in sexy dress as well as with a woman in the most dowdy clothes.

What a woman wears makes not difference, it is about being cautious, not what to wear.

Now, granted, a man may think that a woman in sexy dress is more willing to put out, and hence try to get into her pants, but it does NOT mean that indeed that woman is actually willing to put out.

Men need to understand that they have to respect a woman no matter what she wears.

I mean women in general do not try to jump a man just because he has a six pack and wears a tight shirt, right?

(Although a lot of men may not be particularly averse to that idea....)

1.

a. A person, especially a woman, considered sexually promiscuous.

b. A woman prostitute.

2. A slovenly woman; a slattern.

reference

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/slut

Who says a slut isn't a good woman? Who the hell gives anyone the right to refer to another woman as a slut? Frankly I disrespect anyone who uses such a word to refer to another human being. Remember the whole thing about "he who is without sin should cast the first stone"

It is also about your responsibility towards the community, changing the slut woman to be a good woman and the guy who rapes to a good person means there will be better community with less crimes.

Ok I guess the main point is send a massage to these who rape woman do you want this to happen to your sister or mother?

These who rape woman are the source of problem and should be addressed to stop such an act.

I think what the slutwalk protesters are speaking out about Brit is exactly the attitude we're seeing on this thread. That what a woman wears contributes to her being raped, when in actuality it does not because, as you and I both said, rape is about control and power, not about sexual attraction.

Unfortunately there are people on this thread who can't look past what a woman wears.

As usual, we got off track..

Rape is Rape .... No matter what you say. It is not about sex, but about control and power.

In the majority of cases , the victim knows the rapist..

The Slutwalk protesters are trying to highlight the fact that in many instances, the police and other authorities do not take rape seriously - probably because its hard to prove.

There is a BIG difference between finding someone attractive and wanting to RAPE them. And as I clearly said before attraction has nothing to do with rape, rapists are attracted to the violent act, not the woman they are raping. A woman walking down the street in full niqab has as much chance of being raped as a woman walking down the street completely naked.

sexy dress, and this man or woman is charming, I hope this clear, also the human being is full of sensations and emotions.

A car which is nice from outside will attract the buyers first right, but maybe the inside of the car is bad.

And vice versa.

You can not put a beautiful girl in class next a boy and tell the boy do not be interested in her right?

So if the rapist doesn't care what the woman is wearing, how is what she wears a helping factor?

is not a reason, but sure it is a helping factor from my point of view.

Yes you are right the one who raps does not care what the woman dress and I agree with that, and your advices are valid.

Here are some statistics and some organization which are fighting the rapist

http://www.rainn.org/statistics?gclid=CIyJs4fYzagCFQd66wod9ytogw

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~ad361896/anne/cease/rapestatisticspage.html

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap-crime-rapes

There is only one thing a rapist is looking for when he rapes a woman, and that is OPPORTUNITY.

A rapist doesn't care what a woman wears, he doesn't care how old or young she is (unless he's a pedo, which is another story). He doesn't care if she's slept with zero men before him or a 1000 men before him. All he cares about is how easy it will be to rape her.

That is why you find men who rape women who are 80, men who rape girls who are 12, men who rape women wearing full Niqab and women who are wearing mini skirts and tube tops.

The way to avoid rape is NOT to dress or not dress a certain way, it's to be aware. Don't walk alone at night, lock your doors, don't open your doors to strangers, don't leave your drinks unattended, etc.

Even then, most rapes are committed by someone the victim knows and trusts. Friends, Family, etc. And again, the last thing they care about is what the women is wearing.

What you wear doesn't matter at all. In fact, the only article of clothing that rapists say they tend to avoid is tight pants, as they are harder to get off. So girls if you want to avoid being raped I suggest you invest in skinny leather pants.

Some people judge from the outside and not from the inside, let me give you an example, I was with one of my friends in a shopping mall and then he saw a girl who was smiling to one of her friends and she was putting some make up and my friend said she is bitch, I was shocked how he judge or throw people with bad words without knowing them.

I am against judging from the outside and without knowing the inside.

In Islam this prohobitted and forbidden, and I want correct one comment which I said in this thread and many got it wrong, what the woman wear does not make her a slut or give the right to rape her.

Never ever speak about a person something bad about a person if you do not know him/her.

Khattak....God works in mysterious ways...;)

And yes, I am very serious.

nomercy....exactly what I understood from SA's posts.

I never thought that we would ever agree on so many things in one thread...Are you really serious? :P

Tinker...I agree with all of your comments except the one where you quoted SA. He is not saying anything wrong ... its just his wrong selection of words (& mine as well :P)

jjj, I will try.he might be talking about prostitutes and customers.

I am not sure though.

See, I just think that SA is pretty much on the same page as you guys, albeit from a different angle. He uses quotes from a book that he reads in Arabic, and those quotes are not necessarily understood by people who do not read the book.

We tend to not care to really think about what other people try to say, we often just look at it and say"yeah, I know, he is one of those.....and don't see that we have more in common than we think.

Tinker...to your last comment on the previous page, I understood why it was called a slutwalk. But not sure if everybody would get it right.

nomerci

perhaps since you are very good at interpreting SA you would not mind translating this:

It is excusable only in one case ...

when the woman indirectly offer her self to others and there are bad men around her and you know what I mean

Tinker...I agree that a woman wearing revealing clothes should, in no way be considered as a slut.

But, Can I expect the same approach from everyone in my village back home? There are people who would consider any woman a slut if she's not dressed modestly...& believe me, they are quite in number.

Hmm, let's see. What does a a woman who wears a micro mini and a boob tube with high heels look like? I would say, although not to her, a slut. IS she a slut? That I do not know. But IMHO she does look like one.

This certainly does not mean she can be raped or hurt.

Would I be comfortable if my husband invited her to my house? No, most certainly not. would I be happy if my husband was seen with her? No, I would not.

Would I like to be seen with her? No, I would not.

Would my husband like to be seen with her. No, he would not. Would he invite her to our home? No, he would not.

Again, I think this is what SA wanted to say.

Tinker...good point. Please refer to the heading of the thread.

Tinkerbell

I know what you mean by refraining from comments but sometimes such outrageous views do need to be challenged if change is to take place

Tinkerbell,

well put, as I said SA seems to have undergone a seachange in his views as it became clear that his views were not that popular nor reasonable

Tinkerbell,

well put, as I said SA seems to have undergone a seachange in his views as it became clear that his views were not that popular nor reasonable

Thank you khattak, English is not my first language either, therefore I do misunderstand too.

jjj75... Good that (almost) everybody on this thread is finally agreeing on the same point.

Peace :o)

Khattak

sorry, language or not there was nothing to mistake in some of his earlier comments - it was just towards the end that they got a little confused, hence the reason I ask for further clarity.

Over and out

nomercy...my comment was to appreciate your help... unlike others who knew what SA meant but kept on arguing. English is not SA's (& my) first language, we cant be good enough in it.

not again , the term "At least Reported"

Alter Dusty

nah - just men don't get convicted and seeing as there is little freedom of press, attacks are not freely reported - unlike liberal democracies, which means certain people in society know that they can commit any crime without fear of punishment or possibly fear of exposure.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1379496/Mukhtaran-Mai-says-life-danger-Supreme-Court-clears-men-accused-rape.html

The problem comes because some thinks that I am imposing on them my peronal opinion.

Isn't this an open discussion forum?

Ok, I will correct it now, no it is not excusable at all.

I thinks clear things, but at the same time we must agree that there factors driving this.

Every thing to stand or to move has a factors or what we call a driving force.

Every thing has causes right?

Quoting Nic

"frenchieman,

Straight Arrow falls into the category of my first comment.

he is not "raised strong enough to resist these women who wear attractive dress showing more of the woman body, covering only 30 % of the woman body".

In his world (approximately 700 years ago) the genders are raised separately and men are not prepared to face women too close to catch"

Unquote

" I don't know about SA if he's raised in that kind of society which U labelled 700 years ago, but for sure i've been raised in somewhat similar environment and still the number of rapist or rape's victims are far less than that liberal, nudist animal society which U claimed and feel proud of and most probably in which U are living".

Read more: http://www.qatarliving.com/node/1798066#comment-1865826#ixzz1LIDNMHh8

nomerci

"Straight Arrow said It is excusable only in one case ...

when the woman indirectly offer her self to others and there are bad men around her and you know what I mean"

seems to have had a little change of heart between that comment and the one the you so kindly "interpreted" for him wouldn't you say?

Khattak, maybe so, but to me it appeared otherwise and I decided to be of help.

If it was not needed fine , it also did not hurt, non?

nomerci...everyone on the thread knew from beginning what SA meant, but again...Oh Dear!!! (Copying You) :P

jjj, I think we have a bit of a language barrier here.

SA

If no merci's interpretation of what you wrote is correct, you do appear to have contradicted yourself a little in your comments.

No problem SA, you are welcome.

and thanks for understanding.

Thanks again nomerci

Well, I think what straight arrow means to convey is this :

No matter what a woman wears or how she conducts herself, she should not be hurt or raped.

BUT, IF she wears revealing clothes or conducts herself in a certain way, there are some people who interpret this as offering herself.

Straight arrow does NOT say he condones this, but he says that this is the reality.

Am I right about this Straight arrow?

SA

don't understand your question

please can you explain more?

Because it seems for you the personal opinion is also restricted.

Diane Charles Breslin?

You can google and know.

Also check for Natassia M. Kelly, Angelene McLaren

SA

you are digging a deeper and deeper hole for yourself by using dubious exerps and equally dubious scientific studies to justify the status quo in order to give you a false sense of superiority. For your own sake I hope you remain in ignorance - I don't think you could cope in the real world

I understood the you had made a negative impact of woman in Islam in one of your comments, therefore for all who want to know more about woman in Islam should know Islam principles first, and I found a fantastic website which has many languages

Link removed by Mods. This is the main forum

poor guy, now i feel sorry for him, chances are that he did loose it already!

SA

you are getting weirder and weirder - did you not read my last comment??

Straight Arrow,

stop reading that book, you are becoming more and more hopeless.

soon you can no longer connect with the rest of the world and have to retire somewhere in Pakistan ;)

Why? Are bones sexy?

Is your body made of bones only, no skin, no meat,...etc?

There are men who rape sexy goats. Whose fault is it? The goat did not dress properly?

and I have to agree with you.

Being raped is a combination of many things, and not necessary the dress...

Again what utter nonsense - SA - I have a suggestion for you, try speaking things out loud before you post them - preferably to an audience and see if they make any type of rational sense. You have the literary runs

Um, I'm pretty sure there's only 1 really important factor regarding whether or not a man rapes a woman.

And that is - did the man rape the woman?

It doesn't matter what she was wearing, doing, saying...

It takes a RAPIST to rape someone. Period.

It is inexcusable and indefensible to blame, in part or in whole, anyone other than the rapist.

If I had a daughter who dressed like a slut, or a son who raped one, it would be the son who would never, ever be welcome in my home again.

What on earth has this weird tosh got to do with the original theme of this post???

No one can deny that there is night and there is day

No one can deny that there lands and there seas

No one can deny that there cons and prons

No one can deny that there are advantages and there are disadvantages.

Sure what ever the woman wears does not give the right for the others to rape her.

When I said the way the woman dress might accelerates the process of being raped was my personal opinion.

Being raped is a combination of many things, and not necessary the dress.

There are many other factors and this was discussed in one of the forms posted here in Qatar living.

frenchieman,

Straight Arrow falls into the category of my first comment.

he is not "raised strong enough to resist these women who wear attractive dress showing more of the woman body, covering only 30 % of the woman body".

In his world (approximately 700 years ago) the genders are raised separately and men are not prepared to face women too close to catch, without jumping on them (like animals do).

That is why he innocently thinks that those raised like him, represent the entire male population!

Not only is it utter crap.

But it's scientifically disproved crap.

Women actually have better memories than men.

http://www.britannica.com/blogs/2008/02/who-has-a-better-memory-man-or-woman/

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=women-have-a-better-memory-for-faces-and-words

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/02/080220104244.htm

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1998/03/980313023242.htm

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/7422027/Middle-aged-women-have-better-memories-than-men.html

But I guess if you live in the stone age and believe all women are stupid and need protection from a bunch of misogynists, why would you bother believing scientific studies.

Utter crap. I agree with jjj.

Straight Arrow - what a woman wears does not make her a slut... she can wear what she wants and this should not ever be a reason for anyone to say she "asked for it".

Agree that in this part of the world - its not the done thing to wear skimpy clothes etc and this should be respected - otherwise stay where you came from.

Also your comment that if "she offers herself" then its something else... Rape is when she says no and its not listened to.. offering herself is consentual so not classified as rape... dont get the 2 confused. A cheap woman does also NOT deserve to be raped.

Guys need to learn how to keep it in their pants !!!

SA

that article proves everything I ever thought about the 2 witnesses etc - what a load of absolute nonsense.

Why Two Women Witnesses ?

By Shamshad M. Khan

with modifications and additions by Abu Iyad

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A question that repeatedly arises is that concerning the 'position of women in Islâm'. Muslim scholars have been able with great success - despite the onslaught of distortion and misrepresentation - to demonstrate the true position of Muslim women; especially of women's liberation in the advent of Islâm. The Islamic ruling on issues such as inheritance, the right to earn, the right to own property etc. have reinforced this position and have been prescribed by Allâh - the One True God - long before western nations even thought of such concepts!

for the answer:

http://www.howard.edu/library/assist/guides/islam/WomenWitness.htm

SA

what separates humans from the beasts in the field is our ability to resist such temptations and not treating others as goods or chattels!

What I want to say is that the dress the woman choose accelerates the attention towards her by some people, all people are not the same may just see and ignore and others may see and not ignore.

Any reaction can be activated or deactivated, some reactions may not even start at all because the catalyst is too old or wrong or the raw materials are expired.

fm, a certain look is enough even if she wears a full abaya!

Frenchieman

What Straight Arrow is trying to say is that if a woman dresses a certain way then she is fair game and considered goods on the open market to be taken advantage of and ergo it is her fault. A woman must dress like all men are potential rapists in order to deter them and if she is raped then it must be witnessed by 3 muslims for it to stand up in court and even then the testimony of a woman carries only 50% the weight of a mans - ie a woman whatever is absolutely f***ed in every sense of the word.

Its a man's world in these here parts!

Maybe not Khattak, but plenty are justifying/excusing it.

Straight Arrow--when you say that 'the woman indirectly offer her self to others', would you please be more clear? How much flesh does she need to show for this to be the case in your view?

Yay for rapists. It's all her fault, I couldn't help it, she looked pretty.

Man there are some sick bastards...

and you let it be exposed to torch will there be a fire?

which needs something to make it react, it is a combination.

when the woman indirectly offer her self to others and there are bad men around her and you know what I mean.

Nobody on this thread is defending a rapist...or justifying the act of rape.

Not all the drunk drivers crash their cars but as there would be more chances of an accident, hence, DUI is considered as illegal around the world. Same concept or theory can be applied here as well.

Another example...In Construction field, we've to look after each & every aspect of safety, be it the least chance of an accident. These are just pre-cautionery measures that we consider before starting & during the work...and it helps us having an accident free work.

A bit of less or revealing clothes seems to work like a tequila shot.

No - None!

Britexpat--but none that are excusable.

i wonder wot dress tat NUN was wearing ?

Theer can be different reasons for a rape occuring.

This topic is mainly about "the way women dress" which could lead to rape..

Valid points.. It is not black and white.

The issue is to raise awareness regarding rape and also to ensure that people, especially law enforcers do not jump to pre-concieved notions when a rape is reported...

It is all too easy to say "She was asking for it because of the way she was dressed"

How enlightened of you straight arrow. What percentage of her body must a women cover before you would condemn the men rape her?

While I do agree that no woman is 'asking for it' no matter how she dresses, I still believe its only common sense to take precautions based on what you know about ground realities of the place wer you are.

For eg, if I am going to a part of a town, which is not quite famous for its law compliance, I would try to maintain as low a profile as possible. I wont be carrying a lot of cash or flashing jewelry; neither would I be going alone (as much as possible)or at the wrong time of the day. Can you call that as a compromise I make on my rights to freedom and work and all that? Probably. Does that mean I sympathise with the lawless elements? I guess not. I am just trying to protect myself till teh world becomes a perfectly safe place (if its evr gonna happen)

But I guess the problem is, the sick crime of 'rape' is not confined to the dark alleys.

A woman will never be raped what ever she is waring only she is living in an ideal world and not in a real world which is ours.

The woman dress is like a good and the goods attracts the buyers.

Those who say that "no woman is asking to be raped no matter what she is wearing." forget that the men has eyes and emotions but again this depends on how these men are raised, are they raised strong enough to resist these women who wear attractive dress showing more of the woman body, covering only 30 % of the woman body.

Some men are loyal to their wife and will never go for such slut women, these men believe strongly in the responsibility towards their family and community.

No man who is good will allow slut woman in his house.

I didn't mean to suggest you were not saying this. I was just clarifying my position. We are clearly on the same page!

I agree tinkerbell. Local laws should be respected.

But if a woman walked down the Corniche in a micro-mini, she should be fined/arrested, etc according to the law by the police. Dressing that way would never excuse a man committing sexual assault against her.

I would agree. This is a misconception which needs addressing.

I assume that the Police Forces take this view because rape cases in most instances are hard to prove.. :o(

Britexpat--that is how it started, and it has spread to other cities around the world in response to similar remarks from local police and politicians.

The protests attack the conception (obviously alive and well on QL) that a woman dressing a particular way is 'asking for it'.

Well the message is right, no woman is asking to be raped no matter what she is wearing.

Alter,

Imagine there is no religion...

wont it be all the people living life in peace?

;)

Alter... I aired same opinion in my early days on QL...:)

Women in Burqa should produce a similar march to demonstrate that they are not oppressed.

Alter...they know it but wont accept.

a misconception must be cleared, actually this topic belong to stone age, when human being were not aware of cloths or we can say, technology were not developed to produce fabrics.

Lol… “bare chested” instead of "topless"?

It reminds me the use of “refreshment counter” instead of "bar" - the unspeakable words in a particular group ;)

Wasn't the Slutwalk campaign a demonstration against the Toronto Police Force to highlight the way they treat sexual assualt cases ?

just remembered those lower caste women who were forced to walk bare chested. So are these so-called feminists any different ?

who refuse to be like a toilet which every one use it will never ever like to be put in the same rank with these sluts.

These 'slut walk' campaigns want demolish the good deeds and remove the barrier between a good women and bad women.

woman is woman what ever she does, but there will always be good ones and bad ones.

I agree with smoke ... well said mate !!

I know, smoke, that's how I got mine.

you can obtain residence visa using slutty ways.

... and it has nothing to do with Qatar. Sluts don't get residence visas here! (Only visit visas).

frenchie,

This post is to high-tech and advanced for this part of the world. Come back in 700 years and probably then it can be rationally discussed ;)