UN move to protect gays & transgender

Hindu philosophy has the concept of a third sex or third gender (tritiya-prakriti – literally, "third nature"). This category includes a wide range of people with mixed male and female natures such as transgender persons, homosexuals, transsexuals, bisexuals, the intersexed, and so on. Such persons were not considered fully male or female in traditional Hinduism, being a combination of both. They are mentioned as third sex by nature (birth) and were not expected to behave like ordinary men and women. They often kept their own societies or town quarters, performed specific occupations (such as masseurs, hairdressers, flower-sellers, domestic servants, etc.) and were generally attributed a semi-divine status. Their participation in religious ceremonies, especially as crossdressing dancers and devotees of certain temple gods/goddesses, is considered auspicious in traditional Hinduism. Some Hindus believe that third-sex people have special powers allowing them to bless or curse others. However, these beliefs are not upheld in all divisions of Hinduism. In Hinduism, the universal creation is honored as unlimitedly diverse and the recognition of a third sex is simply one more aspect of this understanding

Source: Wikipedia.

ok, I'll sell my super yacht and the Chateau

Shhhh - you'll have those nigerian 'be my friend' scammers hot on my heals! :P

Adey if I remember correct our Employer does allow advance pay :)

on evolution- that's pure BS frenchie. All you have is blind faith. not very convincing argument

Right back at ya UKEng.

I can see the atmosphere getting sombre. A joke would be in order.

A king once ordered all the homosexuals in his kingdom to bring him a fruit he had never tasted before. He announced that whoever did so would be weighed with gold and the gold of his weight would be gifted to him. However, there was a provision to the announcement. In case any homo brought a fruit which the king happened to have tasted priorly, there would be a punishment. The punishment would be that the same fruit would then be forced up the bowels of that gay.

The first gay who presented before the king opened his sack of silk and lo, he had berries in the sake! The king, after tasting the berries and finding them to be ones he had tasted before, ordered that the man be undressed half-naked, and the punishment be fallen on him. While they were inserting a berry into the man's bottom, the man cried and then laughed loudly at the same time. The king said, "bring this man forth," and then he asked him, "describe to me the reason for your crying and laughing at the same time."

The man said, "My Lord, I cried because it was so painful; and I laughed when I remembered some of the gays outside holding in their hands mangoes, watermelons and even coconuts."

Adey, who are you kidding?! You must be loaded by now.

Going well & enjoying the lovely weather feel sorry for the family in London :) glad to see you on QL. Sorry for the little hijack guys :)

I honestly don't know what all the fuss is about homosexuality. It's time to stop the conversation. Like I said, right, wrong, whatever. It is what it is. Get over it.

Time for me to get a bank loan then?

Exactly right about shallow comment - it's an example of slippery-slope argument; the same as your zoosexuality point.

There is a very good reason why it will not be legalized in the future......I'll let you come to your own conclusion why not.

Also, many things were seen as curses in other eras - things progress.

Yes, long time UKEng, how's it going?

Nice to see you nice (diamond) long time no hear?

Gay people are also human can we all agree on that ! They are not another specie!

'Do your reseach and you'll soon find out that all major physical evidence used as base for the theory of evolution were ALL refuted by the scientific community and the refutation published in famous scientific magazines.'

Wow!

There seems little point is discussing this with you as you appear to live in some alternate reality where you are unaware of the arguments you claim to refute. You are entitled to your belief but now you are just making stuff up - whether by design or genuine ignorance - as to what the scientific community is, what it has deduced and the consensus reached.

i went through all the comments that are posted..

what i feel is like.. either of them trying to show others down..

all you ppl claim that homosexuality is normal and should be accepted .. i have got a simple question.. what do you see the world after some 100 years ahead or so..? how would you be in this world, if your ancestors were all homosexuals..?

i was surprised when someone just went ahead to say that homosexuality is in the genes.. how about extra marital affairs..? even thats in the genes..?

so many philosophers out here to give lectures.. i remember on simple proverb that i read as a child.. ""empty vessel makes a lot of noise"" yes ofcourse it does..

According to my religion the transgenders have special status. They are considered good omen, hence in many occasions like birth of a child and marriage the transgenders are invited to dance and shower blessings on the newborn etc. They get paid for that. One must pay them well else they may curse and their curse is said to be very potent.

I had never fully read your comments in depth, only now did I come to know how shallow they actually happen to be.

Mixing apples and oranges, I wonder how an educated person could not see the difference between driving and homosexuality.

Every behavior has a risk associated with it; however, not all behaviors are risky behavior. It is the net effect that counts. Your red meat example is correct, it is another risky health behavior.

Having sex with your wife has some risk associated with it (but the benefit, or fun if you would like, is much more). Having a strictly monogamous relation therefore is a behavior with very low risk. Having polygamous relations, on the other hand, poses much greater risk. The risk rises exponentionally, when it comes to sleeping of one man with another man (again, there might be fun, but the risk is indeed much, much higher).

These imaginary arguments are not so imaginary my dear. If you only could read the history, homosexuality was considered nothing less than a curse. It was a mental disorder until very recently and was removed, in the 70s from the list of psychiatric disorders in the diagnostic and statistical manual of mental disorders (DSM-III). Why do you think this strech of imagination is too far to say that zoosexuality, too, at some point be excluded from mental disorders and may well, like homosexuality, be legalized.

that's just it.......gay people are not indulging in pratices contrary to their very nature.

Define normality? Whose norm?

Excellent Adey, but I'm not a cheap date so it would have to be a precursor to some fine dining ;)

plodding along - I'm still going to buy you a Guinness some day

"One or two fraudulent assembled skeletons with human body and chimp skulls long refuted by the scientific community as frauds?"

You may wish to believe that but..........facts say...........many, many more than one or two, and they are not refuted by scientific community - sorry but these are facts.

You can claim that the scientific community is wrong but you cant say they have refuted them.

Takes one to know one Adey...how's my favourite atheist? :)

I was going to mention childbirth as well

'Slippery-slope' arguments are rather weak - we could all indulge in 'what-iferisms' to the nth degree.

Secondly, to cover your dangerous to health point; in that case rock climbing rather than taking the gentle path , driving rather than walking and eating red meat rather than a vegetarian diet could be seen as being 'against the rules of universe' - as these to 'would risk the health and life of other people'

segmund - you say " I do not see smoking and homosexuality much different. Both are detrimental to humankind"

I can say the same for religion.

I that way, then everything is detrimental to mankind, including childbirth.

The word detrimental, I trust you are aware, means injurious, harmful, damaging, noisome, and so forth. In none of its denotations, it could be used for lethal, something that, perhaps, you are trying to imply.

What I am trying to say is that the incidence of HIV, gay bowel syndrome, hep-A, and excuse my language, anal cuts among other problems would have been far less had their been no homosexuality. That is what I mean by detrimental.

I don't think homosexuality is detrimental to mankind. Is mankind dying out? It's been here since the beginning of time and mankind has continued to grow.

Well I've been on QL for over two years now so I'm sure we have made some virtual acquaintance. Though I must confess I've got to know ya quite a bit from reading old QL posts when I got naught better to do..lol You were certainly more active then! Do keep coming sis...don't be waiting for the blue moon =D

QDC: In that sense, I do not see smoking and homosexuality much different. Both are detrimental to humankind. As lay person if you do not even have to care more, but as a physicians, I would be the hypocrite of last degree, if I chose to keep quite about something which would risk the health and life of other people.

Diamond: Nor did I at any point say that it is right or wrong. I only presented some facts and then juxtrapolated the same concept a little bit further to an imaginary situation, somewhere in the future. I have no doubt to say that in the future, looking at the current pace, there would be many humans would want to digress from the norms and choose ways, which presently might seem a little bit awkward, for example the zoosexuals, along with their sheep, goats, dogs, horses etc, would move the International Court of Justice and Human Rights against their being stereotyped and would surely force the UN to pass a resolution in their favor. It will be the same discussion, my friends, some calling it insane, other calling it normal.

There might be a time that human-animal marriages might become legal, at least in France and some other countries, for example.

Yada yada yada Segmund. A sexual preference is not something you can change. There is no right or wrong about it. It is what it is.

While recently reading something by Stephen Hawking, I just came across this line, and it literally spun my head:

"The universe is governed by laws. The laws might have been decreed by God, but God does not intervene to break the laws."

I am personally a devout Muslim; however, sometimes, I just cant help reflecting over certain things from a neutral perspective. I have tried to think of most of the sins and religious rituals in pure scientific terms. Sometimes, I have seen clear reasons behind the suggestion of, or admonition against, certain things.

Let us talk about gays in pure scientific terms. I do not want to bombard you with medical information. I would just give you a few reasons why remaining gay is against the rules of universe.

The highest incidence of HIV transmission through sexual contact is with anal receptive intercourse. Second highest incidence is associated with anal insertive intercourse. The rectal musosa (the lining of the last part of the human large intestine) is far more friable than the mucosa lining the female genital tract. Thus the chances of being broken, lacerated in injured in other ways is much more in the case of anal intercourse. Gay bowel syndrome is a state of chronic state of amoebic parasitosis seen only, as the name suggests, in gays. Research demonstrates an increased risk of intestinal cancer for individuals indulding in anal sex. A man with Hepatisis A, through sexual contact, has much greater chance to transmit the disease to a male partner than a female.

The above information is just statement of a few facts, a few of those that are already known, the ill effects of homosexuality could be many more. This is a case for those who prefer to keep religion out of homosexuality. Let us see what they have to say to this. Probably they would go on and say, "Let us keep science and research out of this as well." Well, if this is the case, and I hope this is not, then there is every chance that the same people would further go on and say, " Let us keep, for example, modesty, ethics, morality out of it." In that very eventuality, I would say to these people, "What if then someone comes up and says he would like to sleep with the woman, who gave him birth?" It is possible that they might say, "Well, if the two are ok with it, why should it be our problem?" I would still ask further, "What if the two are your brother and the woman who gave you both birth?" If they still choose to answer, "Well, we should not have a problem with this." At this point, I would congratulate them to the new generation of humankind: one in which a child fathers a child by his mother. What an advancement, right?

Segmund, some actual science! Yes homosexual anal intercourse causes a multitude of problems for the people involved, but them again so does smoking. The same with smoking, as long as they don't do it near me I couldn't care less.

Walaikum salaam Fatima...I guess it is a blue moon :D I can't recall...did you use another moniker previously?

Adey, Bertrand is a darling. Oh if all could think like that.

"Love is wise and hate is foolish" awesome....TFS!

By the way is he, Mr B. Russel,a relative of your's? I just feel you both have a lot in common to be a mere coincidence...cheers!

Good to see you here *checks for the blue moon* ...and yes you do sound very beetles like,but hey we forgive ya! And thanks for the good reminder!

First homosapiens appeared about 250,000 years ago and that figure predates all religions, well except for sun worship, moon worship, animal worship or whatever they did in those days. How do we know how old modern humans are? We have evidence. Something you cannot provide in any of your arguments and no you can't produce the Koran as evidence of the Koran.

&feature=g-all-lik

At the risk of sounding like a Beatle...live and let live. Love not hate.

Homosexuality predates all religions and all gods. It didn't start with the people of Lot!

I don't like homosexuality either, I'm a beaver man through and through but I see no reason to persecute gays, Arab or otherwise. In fact if you think about it, it's a good thing for you the homophobe and me. More women for us!

So as long as we don't spread hate we are all free to say what we believe in, but ultimately it's up to each person to chose the path they wish to take, right? After all I am not forcing anyone to believe in what I believe..

Anyways we have all gone a bit far from the topic so lets agree to disagree here. I respect your opinion and I hope you don't see me as some hate speaker. To further emphasize I have people of different beliefs in my family alone, and I even hang with their kids. And I never try to poison any of their minds. I do my thing and they do theirs and we all respect each other's differences. And for that I have my relatives' trust.

Frenchies for once, just please confess you are trolling...

Sexual orientation genes are either opposite or same.

Means the sexual genes can either be a for opposite or for same.

Means your sexual genes decide if you are attracted to the opposite sex or not.

Not the bloody age.

And Pedophilia is not in the genes, you are speaking bunkum, you absolutely got no idea what you are shouting about.

Get some education for god sake and stop being so pathetic and so hateful.

It is because people like you ,that we can't live all together.

People who still think their own "opinions" are the truth.

You must be grateful enough that you are not treated as a lunatic and put in an Asylum.

Sorry to disappoint you by breaking your dogma.

But that is your own personal belief.

It is not a universal rule and it is certainly not a proven fact by the world.

So the sins are based on your own grounds, so it's your own matter.

But we get involved when you try to teach it to other children or other people, which only causes to develop hatred and ignorance.

It dosent matter whether it affects me or not. To be honest a person being gay or not really doesn't affect me physically. A person committing fornication also doesn't harm me. You know,as a person who has studied the scriptures that it's God who decides. We who believe in the religion, only abstain from them as much as we can.Sometimes we are successful sometimes not. But we don't make the rules. Similarly we cannot force anyone to follow the rules either. To each their own. Ultimately God will judge between us.

So homosexuality is a sin? But its not affecting you!

It is not the person who is hated. Because there are gay people,like my friend, who dont have gay sex and they abstain for the sake of God.In fact the kind of sacrifices she makes are amazing. can I hate her and condemn her? No way! For all I know she maybe better than me or anyone deemed pious.

And yes as I mentioned, there are situations where a gay person can definitely better than outwardly pious people, who in actuality goes about spreading mischief and calumnies. my friend for example hates slander and gossip!

Bottom line is no one can afford to look down on others.. we can hate a sinful action, but we cannot hate our fellow human beings.

Frenchies how big is your collection of futile and bias arguments?

Till now you have not given a single "fact".

All your claims are from things you learned from a preacher somewhere...

You would condemn somebody for being as he was created?

You are confusing Homosexuals with Bisexuals.

Homosexuals contains the gay gene.

Bisexuals are people who got normal genes but they choose by choice to be straight or not.

So how cruel of you to condemn somebody for something he was born with?

A homosexual that actually works and does good deed is better than a religious who does not sin but still doesn't work and just decides to keep praying.

Guess to many people forbidden fruit tastes sweetest!

As for hate...then yes Blosted, I do believe its important that whilst we teach our kids about what is sinful and what is not, we also teach them to not look down on people and feel smug about their piety. Because a person can be gay, but do a million good deeds that can earn him God's pardon, whilst a person can gain God's eternal wrath by being arrogant and going about judging others.

We may hate committing sins, we may hate the sins themselves, but we cannot act with hatred towards those committing sins because God knows, non of us are free of sins. God tests us all with our desires, and whilst some maybe tested with say attraction towards one's own sex, another can be tested with other things like wealth. Ultimately God alone knows who will enter paradise and who wouldn't. It's about each one's struggle to overcome our desires.

Back to the topic, well as we all agree, homosexuality does exist and is becoming more and more obvious than in the past. Now how do we deal with it is up to us all. Though personally I would advice anyone of any faith, not to take the law into your hands. And don't do anything evil in your bid to battle what you see as evil.

For Muslims, remember the Quran teaches us to repel evil with that which is better, so better hold onto your beliefs, be the best example of your faith, and always convey the words of God in the best possible manners .And perhaps you may be responsible for a great change in the world..one way or another! If nothing else at least you will still gain God's reward...always a wonderful thing.

Gays in history of the Arabs and Persians

http://voices.yahoo.com/arab-persian-homosexuality-brief-history-569110.html

It seems the Arabs and Muslims practically invented modern homosexuality!

Just a quick search I the Internet for Arabs and gays brings a whole plethora of information and articles. Here's one good one

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2007/05/the-kingdom-in-the-closet/305774/

So with all this gay sex going on in the Arab/Muslim world surely god should have wiped these decadent counties of the maps years ago? Maybe he is more tolerant than you think

If you are pretty much aware of it, you should be aware of the fact that it happened way before the appearance of the prophets.

Thus this cannot be tie to tie with Frenchies prophecy.

Nonetheless, there are great injustice in this world, just because people are too lazy to wrap their head or understand something ,doesn't mean you can go around and spit poison unto children's brains like Frenchies is doing.(I am not talking about you FathimaH of course, just generally).

Yeah right...not anymore it isn't! One needs to visit one of the many malls around, specially on a weekend,to see all the colors of the rainbow so to speak. As Frenchies said this is nothing we deny..we are very much aware of it.

I don't understand what the problem is. The Arabs have been famous for homosexuality for thousands of years, it's just that its hidden in the closet. In fact their school system positivity encourages it.

I hope you don't mind me answering, but both frenchies and I already clarified this point. Anyways to put it into clearer terms, as long as the person in questions says he is a Muslim, and follows Islam ie prays, fasts, etc and dosent deny homosexuality is a sin, then he is still a Muslim. And his sins are then for God to forgive or not. And God knows best.

However if he denies it being a sin, even when shown the proof from the Quran itself, and rejects the verses, then it is an act that can take one out of the fold of Islam ..

But again it's not upto us lay folk to claim so and so is a disbeliever when they say they are Muslims and follow Islam to the best of their ability.. This is takfeer which is a very dangerous ground to tread. Better just give the person the proof, and advice them whenvere possible,in the best way possible and also know when to back off. Much like we would do to anyone committing any of the major sins.

And I reapeat homosexuality is a major sin yes, but so is adultery, so is backbiting, so is slandering, lying, treacehery, etc.

Now as to the widespread of homosexuality and adultery being among the signs of the hour, yes they are, however there are many more signs that must occur too.These can take place over a long or short period of time,and until they all come to pass the hour will not come, and God knows best. This is to clarify Uranus's point.

I hope I explained things well enough.

I forgot the main rule....don't feed the trolls.

is your stomach full tahsin?

Anyway this is getting silly and out of reason.

Enjoy the rest of your day.

P.S: and what 3rd world I am from?oh the irony!

Nikah? we don't need any more nikah!

There are 7 billions of us, we are the most wide spread animal species.

And plus that we got hundreds of millions dying from hunger in Africa and millions being slaved.

So unless if you are thinking to nikah so you can give birth to useful lads who will fight this poverty.

I read them. They just didn't carry much historical consistency or accuracy with regard to homosexuality being normalized.

If homosexuality is a sign of the end of days, then how is the rampant homosexuality over the centuries explained"

who's talking about creation?? still no answer for the muslim faith

@SPLITT because homosexuals were created by Satan to test people's faith, and they will end up in hell for their homosexuality.

Frankly ? I don't know why they were created at the first place.

Frenchies - just to be crystal clear. Can you be a homosexual and a muslim?? If not, why not?

Why? so you can hand me a prize for being the non-bigoted of the day?

Frenchies, can I have your address? I already called the Asylum, they need your address to pick you up.

Face it. All of the same arguments being made against homosexual rights here were they exact same ones being made ten or twenty years ago in the countries that now have gay marriage and make it illegal to discriminate against gays.

Like it or not, the future is pink: and all the legions of closeted homosexuals in these countries will be free to act as they choose in public.

Guess sometimes, when it comes to battling oppression and wrong doing certain illegal acts become incumbent..but again that will be a whole new case study all right, and each act will require a great deal of thought and analysis!

Illegal and criminal acts are not necessarily the same IMO. Sometimes illegal acts are necessary. For example, the Arab Spring protesters were undertaking illegal acts by their very opposition............but that discussion is for another time.

That was some lesson, Mr Adey. Thank you! So as long as the leaders of nations are in agreement with the proposals, then whether anyone agrees or disagrees in thought, one cannot, or should not, go against the laws in one's actions anyways.

For the record I am always against discrimination and oppression, just as I am against illegal and criminal acts of all kinds.

Now you are confusing people with facts? Religion tells us to kill those that are different.

The UN resolution says something so uncontroversial that if anyone disagrees then they have a very warped sense of morality.

This is what this resolution is about:

'The Third Committee of the United Nations General Assembly voted to approve a resolution condemning extrajudicial summary or arbitrary executions.'

Please note that this is all such acts......gender issues have not been mentioned.

So are we all agreed that extrajudicial summary or arbitrary executions are bad things?

Good so lets move on.

'This resolution is introduced every two years to protect the right to life of all people. It includes calling on all member states to investigate killings based in discrimination.'

Again, are we all agreed that such killings based on discrimination (all forms of discrimination) are bad?

Good, let's continue.

'For the past 12 years, this resolution has urged States "to investigate promptly and thoroughly all killings, including... all killings committed for any discriminatory reason, including sexual orientation." Apart from Human Rights Council resolution 17/19, it is the only UN resolution to make specific reference to sexual orientation. This year, the term "gender identity" was added to the list of categories vulnerable to extrajudicial killings.'

So now we get to the part where sexual orientation and gender identity is asked to be included as a category under which such killings are undertaken as a result of discrimination.......alongside those historically subject to executions including street children, human rights defenders, members of ethnic, religious, and linguistic minority communities etc

Still keeping up?

Also, this is nothing new......it was in the original resolutions but was stripped out in 2010......this just reinstates it.

Now how can you be FOR extrajudicial summary or arbitrary executions based on discrimination? If you are for it, be it for religious or any other reason, then your morality is just plain wrong...you are wrong....there is no debate on this matter.

As a caveat, Egypt said:

'We are alarmed at the attempts to make new rights or new standards'

Since when is the right not to be arbitrarily or summarily executed because of discrimination a 'new right' that should be resisted?

Voting was as follows:

The full resolution passed with 109 votes in favor, 1 against, 65 abstentions and 18 absent. The one against was Iran. Qatar abstained.

This is very uncontroversial and anyone who opposes it is as repugnant to the core as any human can get.

More info:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/11/22/1164003/-UN-votes-to-protect-people-on-basis-sexual-orientation-gender-identity

"but people need to manner themselves, and stop poking their noses" Wish that was true..a lot of problems, even disasters, can be averted by people doing just that. Of course sometimes outside intervening is a must if it is to stop oppression and crimes, but one needs to differentiate between when it is ok and when it is not ok to get into another's business.

That IS the problem.

Facts and truth are harder than a piercing spike.

Now if that would ever to happen ,imagine the hell hole we will live in!

And YES we CAN guide people, and we can even control them through psychology and neurology.

I don't want to go off topic, but people need to manner themselves, and stop poking their noses.

I do. And yes there is only so much we can do. We can only do what's right and try to encourage others to do so..but guidance dosen't belong to us. And we dont always have the power to control the actions of others. People should know better than to blind follow anyone. They should know to use their God given brains and look up whether or not what is being trumpeted is true.

You are completely missing the point here, how useful is a prophecy when it will actually happen?

Have you seen what happened in Libya?

A innocent man was hanged for a stupid movie.

Now if an Imam would rise up and make a fatwa to cut the heads of all gays and transgenders , people will do it without second thoughts.

That's where reason just fails.

I haven't heard them myself,But I do believe you..I've heard from others too that some pretty hateful and misguided info is being preached by some khaitibs. Again remember the prophecy that as time goes by falsehood will increase and knowledge will be lifted. So much so that it will become hard to distinguish the truth from the lies..

@Fatimah what she said is nothing to what I casual hear at some Mosques when I used to go to Friday prayer.

If you found this pretty dark, you still haven't seen Iran or KSA.

Certainly. If the one from among our faith enjoins good that comes from the Quran and sunnah, then yes we praise the one endorsing good.And certainly the one promoting evil and misguidance is not someone anyone who claims to be religious should wish to be associated with. At most we can try to get the one astray educated and updated, but we cannot say they are upon the right, just cos they claim to be "one of us". Truly actions speak louder than words...but what this woman spouts is pretty hateful speech and I cannot be a part of that!

Well I don't know about people here but I have enough information to put me up in a debate.

Nonetheless ,if something disagrees with their views they immediately label them as "Short of info"

Just live and let live already.

Stop being so bigoted and thirsty to spread hatred .

We don't want to get back to the dark ages.

I love you for what you said..

PS .. I am not Gay !

Too many cow boys not enough Indians

Let explain what this means, it means too many commentators on this thread who don't have enough knowledge & respect. We all agree that as humans we should respect each other and try not to harm each other. Now how many gays were tortured by the Prophet during his time. You can dislike something about someone but never hate them, after all we are all the same Gods creation & he loves us all in his own way!

So basically when something is "bad" said by your likes you deny them, but when they say something "good" it is all praise and joy?

Exactly what is wrong. Too many people with too little knowledge of the subject, but too loud a voice.

That woman is a real piece of work. " If they (gays) do such a deed... torture them; punish them; beat them and give them mental torture." And who is she to go about issuing fatwas about the penalty for gays?

Do people really believe though that most Muslims condone such behavior? Do people really believe that Islam preaches violence and hate? Can they not see her to be another Michael Savage? Oh wait I guess since the radio station is considered a religious one people would simply assume this is what the religion teaches. God help us!

Just hope and pray that most people are more knowledgeable enough today to research first if such things are actually tenants of a faith or whether this is just one person's opinion.

Another person giving Muslims a bad name. Very sad that these people live up to the stereotype

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4661805/radio-station-fined-said-gays-should-be-tortured.html

That's the difference, they are affecting others...

So it's ok to hate Muslims for some as they have beliefs that differ from theirs, ok to persecute them because they are a bit weird? Of course not, same with gays. Let them do what they want, it doesn't affec you.

I hope Frenchies and tah are professional comedians.

People full with hatred claiming to know what's good for the world with their own bigoted blind views.

Frenchie--Thank you.

Frenchie said "What I would like to suggest is that there is a global conserted conspiracy to normalize extra-marital relationships and homosexuality in every country and every culture."

I wouldn't necessarily call it a conspiracy, but I certainly agree there is a global movement working toward this, and, so far, they have managed considerable success.

tahsinmim--"This topic is totally hijacked by atheists". It was clearly intended as open to all to comment, religious, secularists, atheists, agnostics, followers of the Jedi Force. The more viewpoints the better, as far as I am concerned, because this is a global issue that is affecting all cultures.

Guess we can in our own way do our part in trying to make some positive impact in the world. Just gotta be patient in our endeavors and always be the change we want to see. Nothing like leading by example and practicing what we preach and always holding onto good manners even when conveying our message. However remember also the Prophecy that as time goes by falsehood will increase and sticking to our beliefs will be like holding onto hot coal. So we must ourselves be strong in our knowledge and wisdom too.

This thread has been very enlightening for me I hope it is helpful to others as well. The exchanging of ideas and opinions is much appreciated.

Agree with FathimaH and nomerci..

Do the best you can. Stick to your own morals and beliefs, bur be tolerant of others and yes, you can help change the world for the better :O)

Best just do our part in being better human beings and stick to our morals and beliefs whilst knowing we cannot change the world. Have a nice weekend all !

You know what guys? Whether this is the end nearing, or we are just growing to accept and tolerate differences....let us stop worrying, because if it indeed is a phrophecy coming true we can't change it anyway or if people are becoming nicer to each other, we surely should be happy about it. Right?

'We often no longer can tell the men from the women. Scary...'

I bet you can........no one else has a problem doing so.

Yep...you can say that again!

The saying of the Prophet of how Islam will divide into 73 sects is true..

And yes signs of the hour are certainly becoming more and more apparent.

Truly, whilst a lot of things happening now in the Muslim world have failed to surprise me any longer, the whole gay Muslim marriage bit still has me shaking my head in utter disbelief. Simply because I cannot imagine any Muslim, with even an ounce of faith and knowledge of the Quran, could ever imagine this is all ok. I mean it's truly disturbing because these conditions are clearly mentioned in the Quran, with no possibility of misinterpreting. My guess then is perhaps these Muslims are truly ignorant of these verses.Perhaps they have not read the Quran. And some Imams, for nefarious gains, are purposefully leading them on..

Make no mistake, as mentioned before, I have met and known gay Muslims. I know they exist. And all of them know that what they are doing is wrong. They would never even dream of telling any Imam to give them in marriage because they know it's against the Quran itself.

Yes Bachus is right..the world truly is changing. One has to only roam the malls in Muslim lands to see homosexuality is more widespread even among Muslims. Maybe they may not all be heading off to the courtrooms to be legally wed, but that dosen't stop it from happening despite the laws.

The world is changing....better toughen up ourselves now and be prepared. And at all times seek knowledge, act upon it, enjoin the good and forbid the evil,and be patient, then at least we know we did our part in spreading the message!

so appropriate:

You have verily hit the target in the bull's eye.

Frenchies--before calling me a liar, why not follow the link I posted to the source of my information? It's one of about a dozen articles on the subject. You owe me an apology.

Here's another article on the imam in France marrying gay Muslims and the mosque that is planned for gay Muslims:

http://www.albawaba.com/editorchoice/france-mosque-gay-452009

and another

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/articles/407139/20121121/gay-france-homosexual-lgbt-marriage-mosque-islam.htm

and another

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/19/muslim-man-in-france-seeks-to-open-mosque-for-gays_n_2161072.html?ir=Gay+Voices

You can disagree with their actions, but there is no denying that is what they are doing. Personally, I don't really care because I am neither gay nor Muslim, but I do think it is example of how the world is changing. Spain, Mexico, France would never have imagined allowing gay marriages twenty years ago, and now they are legal. The UN never would have acted to protect gays and transgendereds even five years ago. Things change, and this is the likely future everywhere.

And the purpose of life would come from hatred?

I hate Armenians ,so I will go kill them and bury them! (Literally)

And do you know what happened to the son then?

And even in the case of French guy, he is an HIV patient, trying to find a purpose in life. The best mission he could come up with to set up mosques for gays, such a self-defeating endeavor.

when it asks for the.......'protection of life regardless of sexual orientation or gender identity'?

“the U.N. Human Rights Council has affirmed that all human rights apply to everyone, regardless of their sexual orientation or gender identity" - what liberal tosh this is!!!!

Coz I hate the gayz I should be allowed to beat, imprison and execute them........life is so unfair!

As muslims, it is our belief that Judaism, Christianity and Islam--- as religions-- are all genuine. The only difference is that after the announcement of Islam, all past religions, which were genuine and from the same one God Almighty, were rendered obsolete. Again, this is our belief, as Muslims.

The concept of homosexuality as a grave offence, in Islamic perspective, dates back to the time of the prophet Lut. That was the time when this sin took epidemic proportion and God sent to angels to warn them. The homosexuals at the time rather than listening to the prophet demanded the prophet to hand over the two new boys (the angels). Then God literally uprooted their city. It is said that the city was plucked off from the earth, taken up to the heaven, and thrust back unto the earth upside down.

The standpoint of Islam is crystal clear on homosexuality. It is a sin, just like murder is a sin. There are people in Islam who kill other innocent people, even while they are praying in the mosque with bomb blasts, and then call it Islamic. The people apparently are the 'extremist Islamists'; however, any muslim with the basic knowledge of Islam knows they are not following Islam. Exactly, those homosexuals who may call themselves muslim (you can go on and call yourself prophet also), they are NOT following Islam. This is such a basic tenet which can not be questioned.

There are some people in this forum who are always on the lookout for weaknesses in Muslims and muslim world. They do not generally comment on anything, but when it comes to insulting muslims, Islam, the governments of Muslims they are so swift to take action. This numskull of a Bachus exemplifies what I am trying to say.

I really wonder if no authorities are reading his lines. At least the moderators should have the least moral obligation to delete his comments in which he describes homosexuality in Islam in positive light.

I hope he is nabbed sooner than later. It is my most sincere request to all of you to ignore his viewpoint. He is just trying to promote a false propaganda created by pseudomuslims. In this regard, he is no less than those extremists who kill in the name of Islam and justify the murder of innocent people as Islamic.

Homosexuality is a sin--- in all religions. But since most religions--- including Islam--- are not being followed as they should be, people tend to digress from the delineated path.

Some one needs to stop drinking too much Redbull and stop watching American movies that much.

You shall neither be a hindu nor a muslim, you are an off spring of a human and shall remain human!

How one lead their lives is up to them. Everyone can can spread the message of what they believe but it is not necessary for every one to agree with every one else. What might be white for you may be black for them and vice versa.

That's the beauty of human nature they shall believe what is best for them. Noah preached so much about the flood is coming but his own so called son did not listen to him..:)

Agreed. I was talking about gays who know it is haram, and accept that the Quran and sunnah prohibits the act. Thus he is sinning due to his desires, not denying the truth, hence still a Muslim. Sorry to have not mentioned that in my post, previously. Jazakhllahu khair for your highlighting this point.

"We should try hard to not misinform people."

The irony...!

But as far as Islam and Muslims go then same sex marriage is impossible according to not man made laws, which can be changed, but the laws of the Quran and sunnah itself.

According to the conditions of an Islamic marriage contract aka nikah it is clearly mentioned that it has to be a marriage between Muslim man and Muslim/Jewish /Christian woman only. Hence if couples of same sex wish to get married they can do so perhaps in a civil court, but the marriage will not be valied in a religious sense at all just like say the marriage between a non Muslim male and Muslim woman.

Any Imam who claims to be doing so is clearly bluffing and misguiding the people concerned because like I mentioned these are the laws set down by the Quran itself, and cannot be altered ever.

As for a masjid then a gay man needn't pray in any special masjid. He can continue to pray in a regular masjid itself because being gay does not mean one is out of the fold of Islam, hence no one can stop him from praying with other Muslims.

Gotta love the hate mongerers. They are confused by very old fairy tales.

Its funny how people claim to know what's good for the world by spreading hate and false information.

Frenchies, apparently it is true .http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2012/11/21/250941.html

Many of the same arguments were made by the majority in England, France, and Spain not too long ago, but both have same-sex marriages now. France even has imams that marry Muslim homosexuals, and a mosque is being set up for gay Muslims there.

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2012/11/21/france-mosque-for-gays-with-mixed-prayer-groups-to-be-opened-in-paris/

Like it or not, this sort of general tolerance is the future regardless of race, religion and nationality. It's really just a matter of how long it will take.

Tahsinmim, it is not about liking or disliking, and one man's truth can very easily be another man's lie.

I am , in a very polite way, am having a respectful ( at least from my side) discussion with frenchies.

I am not offended or touched in any negative way by what she says or does.

I may not agree with her, but I will respect her.

THIS is what I believe in and have said in this thread. So I will most certainly apply it.

Frenchies, accept them as fellow human beings...they are exactly that.

Why do you concern yourself with what they do or not do? You do not have to be their friend.

Let us say, I for example, do not agree with what you say or do. Do you see me running around condemming you? No, as it is none of my business what you say or do, as long as you do not hurt me or others.

So, I will accept and respect you as a human being. As simple as that.

Well, people usually will argue for the topic into to be taken in a religious context. Homosexuality is forbidden not only in Islam but in many other religions as well.

I do not know if it is my religious background, my upbringing or my genes, I find the concept nauseating. I do not want to be explicit here but, suffice it to say, I can not imagine any homosexual possiblity without feeling like throwing up. Guys I had such an amazing lunch a while back, and now you are talking about homosexuality. Please exuse me for a while, while the food leaves my stomach. Thanks.

A lesbian

As QDCLover said ...

"At the end of the day what people do in the privacy of their own bedroom is their business. Who cares? "

Well Segmund, I am quite happy as I am, heterosexual , myself.

Still, no reason to be nasty about gay people.

In the end, we are all human beings. And if you believe in God, created by Him. So, who are WE to judge about HIS creation?

See, what is written in holy books has been written by human beings, as far I am informed. FACT is, that gay people exist.

and in the debates that endure between different people of different beliefs, as to how right or wrong it is, there will be no winners, since either side will hardly ever accept the reasoning or proofs of the other.

Personally as a Muslimah I know homosexuality is accepted to be a sin according to the Quran and sunnah(of course not a evidence accepted by all non Muslims), a major sin yes, but then so is sex out of wedlock. So is backbiting and slandering. So is being un-dutiful and cruel to one's parents(in fact this is a sin often mentioned to be a far bigger sin than others).

If I know a Muslimah or a Muslim to be gay(and I have known) Then I would advice them from the Quran and Sunnah as to why it's better for them to abandon their deeds. If they accept it well and good. If not then Allah will judge them. They are still Muslims, just Muslims committing sins.And since non of us are pure of sins,I will just keep advising them in the best possible manners. We are all tested with our desires after all, sexual and otherwise. Sometimes we overcome them and sometimes we don't.

I know personally one gay lady who was a non Muslim and became Muslim. She accepts being gay to be a sinful and works hard at controlling her desires. It's not always easy but she does so to please God. And I admire her for that.

The kind of profession I am in, I am not supposed to comment on any lifestyle (until the whole medical community has declared it good or bad); however, I feel sick, dirty, and disgusting to the bone myself when I imagine the horrid prospect myself ever being a gay.

Frenchies, I think it is best we accept and respect who and what we are ,human beings with all our diversities. No need to "ape" anything or anybody.

Yes Segmund , it is seen in animals.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals

Natural or not, homosexuality is definitely a human characteristic: this behavior is never seen in animals.

Well Frenchies, then the end will only happen in SOME countries...as in most countries homosexual acts are NOT illegal.

Guess I'll be hoofing it back to the West to look at the end happening elsewhere.

Frenchies, your homosexual brothers and sisters won't be very happy to hear that....

Isn't it also a crime in this country for unmarried men and women to have consensual, heterosexual intercourse?

Why just worry about the oppression of the LGBTI community when the straight community is also going to risk imprisonment for having 'illicit relations'?

At the end of the day what people do in the privacy of their own bedroom is their business. Who cares?

They could be dressed up as seal, with an orange in their mouth and dates in their anus, singing the Saudi national anthem for all I care. As long as I don't have to watch I'm not bothered.

Even animal species display forms of homosexuality, will they not get into heaven too?

I beg to differ. I saw the film and Alexander definitely wasn't gay..

Alexander the great was a gay! and he was on this earth even before Christ! and he ruled over a great part of the inhabited world at that time!

Frenchies, hold on but Gays and lesbians existed well before the Prophet came on this earth 1400 years ago?

Thanks for sharing Ur anus 1.

by my second paragraph QDCL..the move will have to be to protect those residing there already. That is when it will become a difficult situation.

Yes, QDCLover. I think that is the point of this move by the UN--protecting citizens from their own governments.

I like your comments mostly Fathima but what happens if that Saudi or Qatari likes a bit of back door loving? It's more difficult for them to just leave. For expats I get your point, don't go to those countries, but for locals what to do yanni?

that already is the case today, without the UN making it official.We people are informed today which countries recognize our belief system and accept them, and which don't. Hence a gay man will not want to reside by choice in say Saudi or Qatar, knowing he will not have the freedom to practice what he believes is perfectly acceptable, just as I would not visit France or Belgium knowing that they oppose my dress code.

The issue is those who are residing in those lands. Can the UN work towards ensuring they will not be oppressed and punished for their beliefs and more importantly practicing their beliefs, even if it is against the doctrines of the state. If so where will they start? How will they decide who deserves this protection and who dosen't? How will they convince even powerful nations to drop their laws even if it be against their creed and culture? The matter will truly not be easy, thus hard to imagine such a list being issued and broadcast strongly.

Lots of comments about the lack of focus on Gaza. Two very different issues and served with a side salad of garbage. If the UN supports freedom from persecution if you choose to practice a certain faith why should that stop them saying you shouldn't persecute others for the other personal decisions/beliefs of consenting adults.

And the UN doesn't do enough for Gazans? Well probably right, if you ignore all their calls for the violence to stop from day one and the fact that they've provided healthcare, education, food and support for millions of Palestinians for over 50 years (via UNRWA). They've done more than almost any other body to support the people there but if you close your eyes to everything, I'm sure your criticism is valid, and you are not an uninformed bigot.

No gays in Iran either, funny that.

I agree fatimah, but if the UN says homosexuality is a human right, then they'll list countries that persecute gays right along those that deny press freedoms and get involved with human trafficking, etc.

QDCLover--there are no gays in Gaza.

Of course they must have the same rights as all other people, after all, they are human and they are people. What difference does their sexuality make ? They are still human.

Marco but what about the gay and transgenered arabs in Gaza? Who will speak for them?

Does the UN have a pariah list that they add country's who commit human rights violations to? Or will they just add "persecution of homosexuals and transgenders" to their reports on various countries?

Yes, the UN for push for equality and freedom. Should it put non-compliant nations on a pariah list ? NO!

Would openly list countries where homosexuality is outlawed to be a vagabond nations. The matter of homosexuality is by far a much disputed affair among people of various religions, creeds and races, that to simply state it's right and all those who condemn it for any reason is wrong, will not be as simple.

That said if they wish to protect those who are gay and transgenders from oppression and mistreatment then I suppose they have all the liberty to do so, however yes they should also then open their eyes to all the oppression committed around the world at large,and work towards stamping them out, and not just pick and choose to their convenience which has clearly been the case with UN in the recent times, which has caused people around the globe to hold them in contempt for, and not take them seriously.

Good on the UN. Nobody deserves to be persecuted.

France is allowing "mosque for gays", so it's only a matter of time before it uses its security council seat to push for this elsewhere. It's a brave new world.

http://www.albawaba.com/editorchoice/france-mosque-gay-452009

MN, but as for now UN's main concern and priority is to protect gayz & transgenders...:(

I wish the UN would show the same concern for all the children being murdered in Gaza.