Woman in burqa excluded
PARIS: French authorities have excluded a Muslim woman from a language course necessary for citizenship because she was wearing a burqa, the French daily Le Figaro reported.
In a decision that was rendered last month, the High Authority Against Discrimination and for Equality (HALDE) declared that in certain regards the wearing of a burqa “is detrimental to republican values”.
The decision was based on an assessment that wearing an all-body veil, such as the burqa which covers the entire body except for a slit for the eyes, hinders the teaching of language because the instructor is unable to look at the student’s face “to observe the expressions ... accompanying the words”.
As a result, HALDE found that forcing language students to remove a burqa does not constitute religious discrimination.
Without completing the obligatory language course, the woman – who was not identified – will be unable to become a French citizen and remain in the country.
In July, the Council of State, the French supreme court for administrative justice, ruled that a 32-year-old Moroccan woman married to a Frenchman could be denied French citizenship because of her religious practices, such as wearing a burqa.
That was the first-ever legal judgment on the ability of a foreigner to be assimilated in French society because of his or her religious practices. – DPA
Today's Gulf Times.
Donno about phonetics, but (as someone who has been a lecturer for a while)I would be extremely uncomfy with having a faceless person in my class. Its like an identity thing. No face, no identity. I cant associate identity with a black outline with no face.
Same at workplace, If I'm recruiting someone, i would anyday prefer someone with a face (no matter what religion they follow) over someone whose face is not visible.
As for France, I do not see anything wrong if they insist that anyone who wants to go there should accept their culture. If someone cant do that, there are lotsa other places in the world they can choose from.
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What a caterpiller calls the end of the world, the MASTERS call it a Butterfly!!
As far as i see it, with all the threats from terrorists i don't find a single reason to be allowed a women/girl to use a burqa in the west, it kinda self exclude that person from having a normal day life and no, it's not an attack to religion, in a lot of places, you can't get in with a moto helmet on, everybody likes to see the face withom they are talking.
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
people has to respect the rules where they are .
France is a real democracy ............
They are just a bunch of racist assholes
Serlena Wardman
South Africa
Durban
Conservatism, meaning, to be conservative.
I really don't see how everyone can claim that the WHOLE of the West is reverting to conservatism and intolerance just because France is. The french are the french are the french people, they've NEVER been tolerant of anyone who isn't french.
Oh well we will have to agree to disagree...:)
I still think the hinderance comes from attitude and not clothes.
Look I have taught veiled ladies for over 5years... in a class of 15 i would often have twelve who wore a niqab...
Sorry but absolute bollix that a covered face hinders languge learning...I would love to testify to that in a French court...
What hinders is stupidity and personal attitude...
lol adey :)
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
"A recent study made by a British insurance company revealed that women are aroused by the sound of some cars’ engines. But don’t imagine that if you accelerate your Volkswagen Polo you’ll get ladies all crazy about you. Because, actually, the Polo engine sound has the exact opposite effect. No, we’re talking about the engine sound from cars like Maserati, Ferrari and Lamborghini. Yup, we know, it’s shocking, but it’s the truth. Women love expensive, powerful cars. Who would’ve thought?
The study consisted of a 20-minute tape with cars being revved that was played to a group of male and female volunteers. After that the saliva of the volunteers was collected and tested for testosterone levels. The most significant increase in testosterone level for women were reported after listening to Maserati and for men after the Lamborghini part. Unfortunately, bad news for VW Polo owners. The sound of Polo’s engine, not only it didn’t increase testosterone levels, but this actually dropped."
http://www.autounleashed.com/women-aroused-by-maserati-ferrari-and-lambo-engine-sound-oh-really
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
Maybe she doesn't mind to be my "sis" ;)
Only God Can Judge Me
الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي
I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer
أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ
Not commenting on your car advert post but
for a man or a woman to deny the sexual procreative force innate within us is a betrayal of our humanity. How you act on it is a different matter, but all this purity, guilt and disgust over sexuality is really bad for you (and let's face it hypocritical).
It's not temptation - it's natural
It's just another case of men wanting to control female sexuality, that's the real thing men are threatened by.
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
In a BMW advertisement:
A BMW car & in front of it a girl in bikini !!!
The caption on the photograph:
"Test drive her now !!!"
I ask: what does this means ??? who to test drive ? the girl or the car ?!!!
What has a girl in bikini to do in an advert for a car???
What kind of western culture is this which sells its mothers & sisters in the name of liberty & liberalisation ???
In reality this is not liberty but the exploitation of the womankind!!! Exploitation of the highest order.
If such is the culture, then all I would say from the deepest corner of my heart is: God save us from such a nudist culture.
In my opinion, social progress to a tolerant and 'Free' society is the primary contributor to their success.
Now, these societies are regressing under threat from terrorism. Which is a victory for the anarchists.
They are forcing the great nations of the world to give up the essence of their grandeur.
Sad indeed.
France is on its way to become Saudi Arabia in revers? I hope not :)
Pieman said;
'Is it really discrimination or is it really any different to saying a girl can't wear a mini skirt in Saudi??'
the article does not give a source for the original piece.
There is too little info here to make a judgement.
I would be guessing but this is how it could possibly have played out:
Woman attends course on French language for her citizenship application, which she does not legally need to remain in the country as she is married to a French national.
Instructor asks her to remove face covering in order to help gauge her learning.
Student refuses citing religious/cultural reasons.
Instructor informs her that as a Government institution secular values apply and any religious objections would not be upheld.
Student still refuses.
The Language Institution offers her place to the next in line(as there is bound to be a waiting list).
Woman complains about discrimination on religious grounds.
Institution denies this and restates its position on the matter to her.
She takes the matter to a court or Arbitrary body (it's not clear) of some such (maybe for automatic restoration onto the course or for monetary compensation, or both)
Court finds that she was not discriminated against upon religious grounds as equality in a secular Government Institution trumps all before it. Her religious/cultural views were impacting on someone else's place on the course. And if she chooses to become a French Citizen she has to abide by it's rules and "republican values”.
Maybe, maybe not? Too little info to judge, just a scenario.
"Deaths in the Bible. God - 2,270,365
not including the victims of Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or the
many plagues, famines, fiery serpents, etc because no specific numbers
were given. Satan - 10."
For an interesting read on the compatibility of Islam with secular living, I would recommend this link, which looks at the ability to reconcile an Islamic lifestyle with both French and American secularism:
http://www.minaret.org/Secular%20Government.pdf
I was referring to this statement:
"Pie I hear you man, but indeed the west is built upon different principles than most middle eastern states so I find it insulting to my intelligence to use the logic that mini skirts in Saudi are comparable to this situation."
Alexa, by pointing out that both are examples of discriiminiation and repressesion, they are similiar.
What is your reasoning to say that they are so disimiliar?
Why is it that wearing mini-skirts in Saudi is actually that different from not covering your face in France?
One is a strongly religious state, requiring everyone to conform to the state religious beliefs.
The other is a strongly secular state, requiring everyone, when within government/public domains, to conform to secular beliefs.
I don't see why Saudi telling non-muslim women to wear muslim-style clothing is all that different to France telling people of all relgions to adopt secular behaviours.
That's about right Abu. The west and the east are different and thats life.
Some kind of common sense needs to be applied to life.
Everything in life needs a bit of give and take, regardless of where you come from or what you believe.I'm sure if people took this line a lot of grief could be avoided.
(same has to be said for some of these threads on here:))
just eat another pie
Abu......I don't want to get into a slanging match but of course everywhere in the world people will moan and complain. Thats just another part of human nature.
You will find in reality I am one of the most tolerant people in the world, despite my occasional moans and groans.
I certainly would not, despite my moans and groans, ever expect any country I visit to to positivly discriminate in my favour. I will always try and fit in. All I'm saying is that people who visit my country should try and fit in too.
Far too often in the west the race card is played, along with the religeon card and any other cards which come to hand and often the people who play these cards are better off and have more freedom than they had in their own country. And note, this whole thing from me is not aimed at muslims in particular. There are plenty of other religeons who can be seen to bend the rules, take advantage etc etc.
just eat another pie
I wrote this:
"Doesn't it strike you as totally hypocritical to imply that French people just enjoy bashing Muslims"
Look up 'imply' in the dictionary.
Cherukkan, As someone who taught English, yes it is very important to be able to see the face, especially the mouth.
Also in case no one's every noticed, women who wear full niqab often speak much quieter (little about a whisper if at all). I can see this getting irritating to a teacher.
The expression in English is 'when in Rome do as the Romans do'.
We as westeners go to other countries to live and work, and I don't just mean middle east countries, and we don't really expect any special treatment to be applied to us just because we are from the west. I think when other nations go to the west to live they should also go along with the culture, rules, regulations etc of that country. Its a two way thing basically.
I think if this were to happen you would actually see a reduction in the number of incidents which fall under the 'racist' etc banners because people do get peed off when the percieve the dice to be loaded against them in their own country.
just eat another pie
You have to follow the norm of the society that you live in, and integrate as much as logically possible without giving up your beliefs and way of life.
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HE WHO DARES WINS
Doesn't it strike you as totally hypocritical to imply that French people just enjoy bashing Muslims (this despite the fact that France is home to Europe's largest muslim population) while at the same time you make comments like:
"I am biased against the French. Met too many while in Germany and they all sucked."
So... "all" French people suck, and that is a valid statement of face, and that's okay, because clearly all French people bash muslims?
When in Rome..or in this case when in France.
There should be no exceptions.
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NIL ILLEGITIMI CARBORUNDUM
What is the relationship between teaching a language and the facial expression of a student? They will teach a student who has got very bad scars due to some accidents who will not be able to show her expression oh face? How come they are asking the student to be democratic and broadminded when they are not?
Since when has it been the claim to fame in France??? To be honest I always thought France's claim to fame was it's intolerance of anyone who wasn't French, didn't speak French and didn't have a certain French "style"
recieve a huge compensation claim....
Like whats happenng in the UK all the time.
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NIL ILLEGITIMI CARBORUNDUM
Why not indeed wizz, I've not idea why we don't other then that we would get cold and or sun burnt. No point in covering your face to keep from getting cold.
Clearly this woman needs to spend some time familiarizing herself with French history and French law, assuming she can read French, that is.
This is like the American service woman who tried to claim that while living in Saudi Arabia she suffered religious discrimination because she wasn't allowed to eat pork or wear her typical western clothes.
Why can't people just show a little respect for their host countries and stop being so damn intolerant?
good point pieman..... im wit u on that...
How is seeing a woman's face exploitation?? Women have faces, they should be seen, if God didn't want women showing our faces he wouldn't have gave us faces.
Where does it all stop?
today they say face should be visible, tomm they may say Thighs should be visible?
A Instructor imparts training and should stick to that. Sick attitude of westerners can't exploit muslim women like their own women so they discriminate.
I agree with Echo and Pieman.One cannot possibly expect to go into someone else's house and not respect their way of life especially if one is planning on being a part of the house in future.
Is it really discrimination or is it really any different to saying a girl can't wear a mini skirt in Saudi??
Sometimes I think the discrimination card is a card which only gets played in one direction.
just eat another pie
Well as everyone says here, she needs to respect the culture she's in, and in Western culture, things like facial expression and eye contact are very important.
That's behavioural science. You need to read more about the art and science of teaching to understand that.
Life is Beautiful...Indeed!
even though i think this is discrimination. i think she should wear normal hijab if she is facing difficult in that place or leave the country.
Poverty is not for the sake of hardship. No, it is there because nothing exists but God. Poverty unlocks the door -- what a blessed key!
- Jalaluddin al-Rumi
Thats call discrimination. Why does the Instructor needs to stare at the student.
CRAP....... Muslim govts around the world are sleeping hence such discrimination takes place...