Women's liberation through Islam -I

She married him because he was known as the most honest and trustable man among the people that time and Khadija (the first wife 40 yrs old and our prophet was 25) wanted an honest man to look after her business, and no one was known to be better than our prophet Mohammad, and the God words (Wahy) came to him during his marriage to her, the Wahy came by the angel who is called Gabriel.

In Islam the woman has the right to have her own property and business and also if the man is not capable of doing his responsibility but the women can then the leadership will go to the women who could be the wife or the sister or ...etc (relatives).

Just returned back from my month long visit to Malaysia.. They say it is the Arab season.. Yes women are liberated.. saw them everywhere, in the pool on the beach..

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HE WHO DARES WINS

Dottie said Yes, the Prophet's wife was ...

Yes, the Prophet's wife was a rich, independent woman BEFORE he married her. Correct me if I'm wrong (and I'm sure you will) but my understanding is that Mohammed received his messages from Allah about Islam DURING his marriage to her, and consequently, she had to conform to HIS beliefs. Had she married him after he became 'the prophet' she would not have been allowed to work and build up her business under Islamic rules.

Iam sorry but you got it wrong.

Any religion or philosophy that places men as the "head" of the family and values his opinion and decision above her's CANNOT be called liberated.

If woman show respect then automatically she will be respected where ever she is.

But if the woman decided to be like a toy and any one can play with her then many good men will not like this toy.

When a woman is engaged to some one or married to some one then she must not allow other to play with her and this is also applicable for men.

Loyality and sincere is important.

Persistent and consistent in cutting and pasting only one side of the discussion.

Signature line > "You can't fix stupid"

trying to catch up on all these threads and the answer to this one seems to be that if you are a non-muslim woman you get no respect in the gulf judging on what other women have been alleging on other threads....

It's especially frustrating when even though we have laws to protect girls, it's next to impossible to get them out of their homes until it's too late. We have had some horrible cases in the US -- including 2 sisters who were recorded by the 911 operator as their father stabbed them to death (for some perceived affront to his honor). I remember a few years back you guys had a girl whose family killed her because she had taken off her head scarf :-(

I'm probably not helping things by discussing it. Sorry :-(

I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM

but I was just reading about 3 honour killings that happened in Ottawa a few weeks ago, and it deeply saddens me that people justify these things, and never actually try to promote equality.

chokes me big time.

I had a rough one, too -- all day meeting and too damn hot out! I just wanted to say my 2 bits :-)

I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM

like Khalid. He has only shown respect to women on QL. In fact, much more so than some of the creeps who have been around lately. Khalid has always been a gentleman to my knowledge.

I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM

sorry to blow your karma,,,it was a long day!

:>)

but have you actually ever done something to assist these women gain equality??

Or do you believe in stoning them or throwing acid in their faces if they go to school??

I wanted to tell you that I appreciate the way you are giving daw'ah more gently. You are easier to talk to and seem to be more willing to listen to people. I think you do a better job when you just speak from your heart than before when you used to copy/paste so many long articles.

Allah yisalmak.

I didn't drink the kool-aid! -- PM

if some one ask for it I will give it

keep your powder dry son,,,

Congratulations to Khalid!!!!

when is the last time, if ever, you supported these women in these god-forsaken circumstances?

Have to ver given to an education charity for them? Have you ever voiced an opinion that supports equal rights for women to a crowd that thought otherwise??

Have you???

I find it quite funny, interesting, and amusing when people post something that will eventually backfire on them.

looking at Jordan and Afganistan and think it is the same in all Muslim countries.

Again unfair people think if one person is wrong then all the other persons are wrong.

Unfair people forget the good examples and only look at the bad examples.

Open your mind and take the good from the good and look at the bad and avoid it.

Its rather strange when we speaks of equal rights and human rights amoung fellow human being when such things like this still happens.

is that why many of these women are locked in their homes, cannot speak unless spoken to, and endure absolute torture,,,,females are barred from education and get murdered when they try,,,,,,is that why Canada has a rash of honour killings now??

and whats worse is that no-one will help them because its justified in the book,,,

Some "liberation" you got going there big guy!!

long live women liberation

that non Muslims can not be happy and I say loudly this is wrong.

I give guarantee that some non Muslims live a very happy life.

some of the Hadiths of our prophet Muhammed.

My mother raised 3 children and fostered others at the same time and still worked, and we have a very close and happy family.

Khalid: Other than Quran, how many other religous texts have you read? Just curious.

A humble suggestion. Results are always better when you depend on yourself to read individual religious philosophies and compare rather than buying some article posted in a religous website, lock, stock n barrel.

Khalid:

Will pick up a few random points n see...

"But did you know that the majority of European and American converts to Islam are women - not men?"- How many of them converted for the ideology and how many of them converted for convenience(eg. marrying a Muslim). Any stats?

"Hindu women were declared to be unfit for independence, inherently weak, easily misled, sinful and unintelligent. In Buddhism, women were said to be the personification of evil." Quite intrsting. Please provide quotes/references. Btw, what gender is the word 'hell' given in Arabic? and why is God always a HE?

"English Christians burned millions of women alive on the mere suspicion that they were witches." Yes. They did. Quite some centuries back. Compare it with so-called Islamic countries of today which practise honor-killings, stoning for adultery and 4-men-witness-for-rape rules. Ofcourse its all a wrong interpretation of Quran/sharia. But the same is possible in other religions too, right?

"Furthermore, Muslims consider it unfair to burden women with both the physical and emotional demands of motherhood and the professional demands of the workplace, which end up exhausting so many women and destroying family life for the sake of economic gain."- Wonderful spin. hats off!

My own mom did her post grad after having 3 kids and did fabulously well in a really demanding job at the same time she was bringing up 3 kids. and she swears she loved bothand wouldnt have had it any other way.

Shez not the only one who would say that, I can assure you.

But then as a respected leader, he should have shown good examples of not starting multiple marriages for humanitarian reasons. There are always other options to a humanitarian case like starting a government run welfare and charitable department to take care of these unfortunate women.

Here is something I found on www.islamway.com

Women In Islam: Beyond the Stereotypes

World Assembly Of Muslim Youth (WAMY)

What comes to your mind when you think of a Muslim woman? A mysterious, veiled victim of male oppression, awaiting Western liberation? A slogan-shouting terrorist? An uneducated foreigner with whom you have little or nothing in common? Unless your social circle includes Muslim friends and acquaintances, the chances are that your impressions of Muslim women have largely been formed by negative media stereotypes - images that usually have little to do with real life, and may have been designed to attract more viewers, sell more products, or gain support for someone's political agenda.

How much do you really know about Muslim women's lives or views, and why does it matter? Well, for one thing, Muslims account for 20-25% of the people on this planet, and Islam has become the second main religion in Europe. But did you know that the majority of European and American converts to Islam are women - not men? Would it surprise you to learn that many women in the Muslim world feel sorry for Western women and view them as being victimised? Have you ever stopped to consider why Muslim women who immigrate to the West usually maintain their identity and strive to pass it on to their children? A thinking person may well ask, if Islam is as oppressive to women as some journalists would have us believe, why aren't Muslim women running away in droves? What it is about Islam that attracts any followers outside its heartlands?

In this brochure we aim to look beyond sensationalistic or alarmist stories to take a glimpse at what Islam has to offer educated women in today's world, and understand why so many (men and) women of every race, colour, and social class have made Islam their choice. The truth, like real life, is beyond propaganda and stereotypes.

The Islamic view of women

First of all, women are portrayed positively in the Qur'an and the Hadith (sayings of the Prophet Muhammad). The Qur'an is the only book of world Scripture in which women are frequently referred to alongside men, and both are described as being friends and partners in faith. The following verses are just a few notable examples:

The believers, men and women, are protecting friends one of another; they promote the right and forbid the wrong, establish prayer, pay the poor-due, and they obey God and His messenger. As for these, God will have mercy on them. Surely God is Mighty, Wise. God has promised to believers, men and women, gardens under which rivers flow, to dwell therein, and beautiful mansions in gardens of everlasting bliss. But the greatest bliss is the good pleasure of God: that is the supreme felicity. (Qur'an 9:71-72)

Surely for men who surrender to God, and women who surrender

and men who believe and women who believe;

and men who obey and women who obey;

and men who speak the truth and women who speak the truth;

and men who persevere (in righteousness)

and women who persevere;

and men who are humble and women who are humble;

and men who give alms and women who give alms;

and men who fast and women who fast;

and men who guard their modesty and women who guard

(their modesty);and men who remember Allah much and women who remember - Allah has prepared for them forgiveness and a vast reward. (Qur'an 33:35)

There is no question in Islam of men and women being at odds with one another, engaged in some kind of historical struggle for power. Rather, the roles of both are complementary and essential. The Qur'an states:

O mankind! Be mindful of your duty to your Lord, Who created you from a single being, and from it created its mate, and from the two of them has scattered countless men and women (throughout the earth). Fear God, in Whose (Name) you demand your rights of one another, and (be mindful of your duty) towards the wombs that bore you. God is ever Watching over you. (Qur'an 4:1)

Do not long for the favours by which God has made some of you excel others. Men shall have a share of what they have earned, and women shall have a share of what they have earned. (Do not envy each other) but ask God to give you of His bounty. God has knowledge of all things. (Qur'an 4:31-32)

The Prophet Muhammad augmented the revelations he received with further teachings and his wonderful personal example, which made him beloved by family and followers alike. He forbade violence against women, and preached against all forms of abuse of power. He warned that both men and women would be held accountable by God for those in their care or under their authority, and said:

Let no Muslim man entertain any bad feeling against a Muslim woman. If he should dislike one quality in her, he will find another that is pleasing.

The best of believers are those who are best to their wives and families.

The position of women in other religions

While these teachings may not seem very remarkable today, they were revolutionary at the time they were revealed, for Arabs and non-Arabs alike. While Muslim sons were being taught that Paradise lay at their mothers' feet, women in Confucian China were told to obey their fathers, then their husbands, and finally their sons after their husbands' death. Hindu women were declared to be unfit for independence, inherently weak, easily misled, sinful and unintelligent. In Buddhism, women were said to be the personification of evil. At the time, Jews and Christians believed women to be responsible for the downfall of the human race, and considered menstruation and childbirth to be the consequences of a Divine curse. One thousand years after Muhammad, in 1586, French Catholics were still debating whether or not women possessed souls! English Christians burned millions of women alive on the mere suspicion that they were witches. Married women in Europe did not gain the right to own property, obtain a divorce or enter into their own contracts until the 19th century. Not surprisingly, women who found such teachings unreasonable rebelled against them and fought for better treatment. Whereas other women have often had to pit themselves against the authority of a male priesthood, in Islam the dynamics of social change have been quite different.

Muhammad was greatly concerned with women's rights

The Prophet Muhammad was an extremely successful social reformer as well as spiritual and political leader, who championed the rights of the weak and oppressed. The Qur'anic verses referring to women had the effect of vastly improving the status and rights of women at the time they were revealed. Muslim women were granted the right to own, inherit and dispose of their own property as they saw fit; reject forced marriages; keep their own names and identities after marriage; initiate divorce; and obtain an education - back in the 7th century. In contrast to the dismal situation affecting many women in developing countries today, early Muslim women were noted for their learning and accomplishments. The Prophet declared, 'To seek knowledge is an obligation on every Muslim, male and female,' and his own wife Aisha was responsible for transmitting thousands of his sayings to later generations. Aisha was also renowned for her knowledge of poetry, medicine, and Islamic law, as well as her personal qualities of character and intelligence. When she led a battle after the Prophet's death, no one objected on the grounds that she was a woman. Many Muslim women in the medieval period enjoyed positions of respect as scholars and religious authorities. Therefore, Muslims seeking to improve the position of women in society have usually focused their efforts on getting men (and women) to practice Islam, rather than trying to 'reform' it, as happened with other religions. The main obstacles to Muslim women achieving the rights guaranteed to them, then and now, have been persistent un-Islamic cultural traditions (usually dating to the period before people accepted Islam in a given locality), inadequate religious education, and the bad side of human nature.

Women's roles, rights and obligations

Spiritual status

As shown in the Qur'anic verses above, women are considered to be the spiritual equals of men, and they have the same religious duties. This is all the more important when we consider that the main goal of a Muslim is to serve God, and that this world is regarded as no more than a testing-grounds to prepare oneself for eternal life after death. Therefore, worldly accomplishments, fame, wealth and power simply do not have the same attraction for a Muslim, whose main focus is on the Next World. The Qur'an repeatedly draws our attention to the fact that the time we spend in this world is short and unpredictable, and what really counts is our character, how we treat others, and what we do with the blessings God has given us. In this context, home and family are of paramount importance, since stable families are essential to the rearing of well-adjusted children who will transmit their faith and values to the next generation. According to a well-known Arab proverb, 'The mother is a school.'

Social roles

Islam supports the traditional division of labour whereby women assume the main responsibility for home while men are responsible for their financial support, but with an important difference: motherhood and homemaking, like a Muslim's inner life, are not considered to be less important or rewarding than a professional career. Indeed, motherhood is one of the most important professions, and competent mothers who can successfully run a warm and welcoming home, and raise a family of happy, confident and well-disciplined children are becoming increasingly harder to find. Muslim wives and mothers are granted the respect due to all women for the struggles and sacrifices they make for the sake of their families. Furthermore, Muslims consider it unfair to burden women with both the physical and emotional demands of motherhood and the professional demands of the workplace, which end up exhausting so many women and destroying family life for the sake of economic gain. Muslims often express sympathy for women in the West, who often suffer from sexual exploitation and abuse at home and in the workplace, while being unappreciated in their traditional roles. Western women who seek to be respected must often dress and behave like men, and are expected in practise to neglect their children's needs for the sake of their careers. In Islam, femininity is appreciated, and Muslim women may seek a higher education, work outside the home or volunteer their services to benefit the community as long as their primary responsibilities are taken care of. Any money that a Muslim woman earns is her own, to spend as she likes; men remain solely responsible for maintaining the family.

Islamic marriage

Although Muslim parents traditionally play an important role in arranging introductions and helping to choose marriage partners for their children, both husband and wife must freely agree to the marriage. The Prophet granted girls who had been forced into marriages against their will the right to have their marriages annulled.

The relationship between husband and wife in Islam is an interdependent one, based on love and tranquillity. The Qur'an says,

And of His signs is this: He created spouses for you from among yourselves that you might find comfort in them, and He put between you love and mercy. Surely there are signs in that for people who reflect. (Qur'an 30:21)

Both parents should strive to establish a stable, loving home and partnership. Major family decision-making should be through consultation and discussion. As the provider, the husband is expected to take the lead, as he is accountable to God for his care of the family. If no agreement can be reached, the wife should be supportive as long as her husband does not ask her to do anything that contravenes religious law. This works well as long as each spouse behaves maturely and treats the other with respect, kindness and consideration.

Codes of behaviour for women and men

In order to safeguard the moral integrity of family and society, Muslim men and women are expected to observe certain guidelines of behaviour that Westerners may find restrictive. Both sexes are expected to dress modestly in loose, non-transparent clothing and avoid situations that would put them alone with members of the opposite sex, or lead to temptation or misunderstandings. Muslim women additionally cover their hair, since women are ordinarily considered to be the more attractive of the sexes. These restrictions are not observed at home among close family members, but serve to protect women's honour in public and draw attention to their personal qualities rather than their looks. In Islam, the sexual urge is considered to be natural and desirable as long as it is confined to expression within marriage. However, Muslims are saddened by the rise in the vulgar exploitation of women and the human body for marketing purposes and pornography, which inevitably result in a cheapening of sexuality and the undermining of family and spiritual life.

Islam's appeal to today's woman

For women who enjoy being women and appreciate the differences (as well as the common ground) between the sexes, who would prefer to be respected for their intelligence and character rather than being chased after for their looks, and who would like to pursue personal and spiritual fulfilment at a human pace without having to neglect their families, Islam is a very appealing alternative.

A few words about polygamy…

Many people are aware that Muslim men are permitted to marry more than one wife. What is not generally known is that strict conditions of equal treatment in terms of time and money are imposed on men who do, or that women may stipulate in their marriage contracts that they have the right to divorce if their husbands take another wife. In reality, monogamy is the norm and polygamy the exception; it has never been common among Muslims except in areas where it was already practised, and it is seldom successful unless the first wife agrees. Islam did not introduce polygamy; in reality, some form of polygamy - whether with legal marriages, mistresses, prostitution or extra-marital affairs - occurs in every society. Rather, it allowed and regulated it in order to protect the women and children who might otherwise be taken advantage of. In certain cases, such as when the first wife is chronically (or mentally) ill or unable to bear children; when there are many widows and orphans due to war; or when a marriage has effectively broken down but the wife would prefer to remain married; open and legalised polygamy can be a workable second-best solution.

The Prophet Muhammad was married to his first wife, Khadijah, for 25 years, and he did not take other wives until after her death. His marriages to several widows and divorcees in later years were primarily contracted for political and humanitarian reasons, as was expected of a man in his position. His home life was characterised by love, consideration, kindness and respect.

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London W1T 4LU, UK

Tel: +44 (0) 20 7636 7010, Fax: +44 (0) 20 7636 7080

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Contact Us

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It sure looks like Khalid really wants is to incite negativism towards Islam.

Not ne more but it was in practice before for a very long time (more in numbers than the free market democracy u see in the west nowadays),

Infact the democratic system is not much different then the shariah law, And what we read about it in our history, makes us yearn for it again,

We have a constitution and then we have the fiqh or the shariah jurisprudence which goes along with it,

There is no king and only a representative like the president who is supposed to be the most learned in the knowledge of these laws and he is also supposed to be of the best of charachter,

Our system is more of a socialistic democracy, where equality is of the utmost importance and we have examples of our scholars who did successfully accomplish that for quite a long time.

So sorry to say it Shaui, but whats the point then of saying that Islam liberated women if proper Islamic law has never been put into practice? If it's never been put into practice, nobodies been liberated.

Right on the money!

My sis is a practicing doctor, believe me i know

And while raising my two terrors, i very well know enuf not to get on my wifes nerves anymore

Just on weekends - LOL!

Neway buddy since u felt it maybe others felt it too, if anyone else feels, its an insult, i apologize.

[img_assist|nid=96642|title=Prop|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=440|height=369]

Is there any place in the world where Islamic judiciary is properly applied?? I think not.

Islamic judiciary is not applied to all cases.

Thank you for the clarification PM. As ever you are the voice of reason.

and build her business. What happens in Saudi in this regard is cultural I believe. I don't think there is anything in the Quran or even the Hadith that states a woman cannot work. Her business is HERS and her profit is HERS.

As for Khadija (ra) we do not believe she was FORCED to convert to Islam. We believe she chose this path, as have so many of us.

I refuse to drink the kool-aid! -- PM

Yes, the Prophet's wife was a rich, independent woman BEFORE he married her. Correct me if I'm wrong (and I'm sure you will) but my understanding is that Mohammed received his messages from Allah about Islam DURING his marriage to her, and consequently, she had to conform to HIS beliefs. Had she married him after he became 'the prophet' she would not have been allowed to work and build up her business under Islamic rules.

implementation in so many so-called Muslim countries, does not reflect the liberation of women.

It's even more of a shame that many men don't get it.

I refuse to drink the kool-aid! -- PM

'Yes I agree some women are strong but globally they are less compared to men'

would you care to 'enlighten' me on how I am 'less' compared to men????

eh???? how????

I'm not sure my marital status has much to bear on this thread, but for the record I'm not married. I'm in a relationship which has two incomes, and domestic duties are split equally down the middle.

I find it ludicrous that this is a country where even the poorest and most working class person sees having a maid as a domestic necessity, yet in the 'rich' western world, it is now commonplace for husband and wife to both hold down full time jobs AND raise children AND run the house.

If you take a quick look at the latest census information from the US, you will see that abotu 70% of married women with children are active members of the labor force.

http://www.census.gov/population/socdemo/hh-fam/cps2008/tabFG8-all.xls

Saying it's 'too hard especially for women' to handle a job and children is an insult to the millions of working women who raise children and run homes all around the world.

Shaui from what I understand it's not enforced by law that children take care of their parents in old age here either. It's simply customary culturally to do that. It's no different in the West with the exception that most parents would never allow their children to care for them, unless they become ill, no matter what the children want to do.

And should there be children who don't have the money or can't or in the rare case don't want, to care for their elderly parents, the government will. Which is better then any system I've seen here.

Shuai where I'm from for the most part both parents work, if there is a stay home parent it could be either the husband or wife. I know quite a few stay home Dad's. Also, Canada has mandatory maternity and paternity leave. So the mother can stay home for 6 months and the Dad for 6.

All Men are from Mars Women are from Venus proves is that men and women react differentely to the same emotional stimulus, it doesn't say women can't work or can't juggle kids and a job, anymore then it says men can't do that either.

by the way has anyone read Men r from mars and women from venus

Gypsy i am sure it will leave a bad taste in ur mouth - lol!

But its good reading, and it just confirms the way men and women have been designed.

You know i have just one concern, these people who talk about conditioning and brain washing forget that they themselves are products of some kind of conditioning,

Now which is more right and which is more wrong - take ur pick

When u r serious about pursuing a career without thinking of having children its okay. But when the time comes to raising a family, call it inequality, but i believe even in ur countries usually the female is the one who stays behind to take care of the household

Fubar i dont think you're married and if u r then i dont believe u have children, its way too hard for the woman especially to handle both (i might be wrong - there are exceptions always),

and by the way if u can understand ur bible as a good book to give you advice, then u shud see Quran as something just the same. It gives you the standards, whether you follow them or not is upto each individual.

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Our prophet wife is the best example of a working woman,

She was one of the richest people of her times and she was a Business woman,

What does that tell you, intermingling with the appropriate attire is allowed,

Fubar, old men or women may be taken care of or may be not, the law does not force the children to take care of the old in ur society.

And i know u are going talk about the government taking care of the old.

But thats ur way of doing things, in our society its the responsibility of the children.

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Broadly speaking Gypsy, women can be prevented by the husbands or fathers from working in ANY job, whether or not there are men around.

Women require permission to work in any capacity at all, not to mention permission to do a bunch of other things that men and western women take for granted.

Weird view of liberation if you ask me.

The closest living male relative is obligied to take care of her fubar, if he so chooses. Basically she's a burden who gets passed to whoever wants her.

As Miss X states, liberation is : The act or fact of gaining equal rights or full social

or economic opportunities for a particular group.

Women under Islam do not have these equal rights, socially or economically. They are forbidden from working with men:

"if she has the skills to work outside the home for the good of the community, she may do so (if she has to) as long as her family obligations are met, and as long as there is no intermingling between her and men in the work place."

Not being able to work with men pretty much prevents her from becoming economically independent as there's not many women only industries and at the moment every economy in the world is male run.

So who takes care of an old woman who didn't marry and have kids once her father dies?

Are you saying that women with no living male relatives are abandoned?

Hang on a second here. If you're going to to post comments like "don't force you liberation as a lifestyle choice for everyone" then go put it in another topic lol. I "force" it on people apparently enough in those other topics to satisfy your quest to reject less rigid thinking.

My comments in this thread are soley in response to the topic thread that claimed Islam liberated women instead of the West.

These are a couple of definitions of liberation.

- The attempt to achieve equal rights or status

- A movement seeking equal rights and status for a group

- The act or fact of gaining equal rights or full social

or economic opportunities for a particular group.

I concur with Shuaib. Kudos!

Women will always have someone to takecare of them be it her father ,after marriage her husband and after the husband her son or if no son then seniors from her fathers side,

If u feel its being kept then so be it, my reason for telling you this is not to changeur mind but to make u understand the logic behind the way things have been ordained by God inour book.

My money is my wifes money and my wifes money is her money, i see fairness in that and a little more favor for her, what u see is upto you,

By the way talking about liberation, what is liberation to you may be slavery for others, many people in the west feel the law does not take care of the old properly since it basically says that they should have done enuf to take care of themselves when they were socially profitable to the economy,

Many of these people are women, u know what i am talking about right, no need of going into details. Your publications are filled with instances of helping working women to deal with loneliness and depression due to work.

what i mean to say is dont force your liberation as a life style choice for everyone and efficient laws, set boundaries and take care of the ones they are made for but do not dictate the life style they choose.

There are enuf liberated women (in your sense of the word) in our society as well and enuf women who prefer to remain at homes, just like yours.

The only difference is our women (working or not working in the economy), as per islamic law, should always have a safety cushion.

I think Shuaib you will find the beating implement is the thickness of a toothbrush, not the total size. And I'm glad you mentioned that Islam did condone it, which is the entire point I was making against the topic starter that stated Islam liberated women.

And again you reinforce my point by saying a woman will "always have a man in their family who supports them". That's not liberation honey. That's being kept. So who's not doing their homework?

And lastly, my mention of women's surnames was in response to a poster who attempted to use it as an example of liberation for women in Muslim societies. I merely countered his attempt with the truth that women take their fathers names, thus keeping surnames a male determined title.

wow..

I agree with Tallg and brite...this seems to harm Islam and will only make matters worse..

I hope we all learn from this and conform to the following:

1- There is a difference between muslims you meet in QL and what Islam teaches.

2- Don't talk about any subject unless you are knowledgable about it and can deal with questions.

3- Even if you are knowledgable, you need to approach it properly.

Those are my thoughts.

Ishqia,

i just want you to know that you are impressive in your debate. To me anyway.

I would also love to see the day where people can criticise without using offensive words.

Peace to all!

If ur husband fornicates what wud you do?

I am sure beating him with a stick the size of a toothbrush is not on ur mind (that is the permissibility in Islam for a woman guilty of lewdness and even that is not allowed according to fiqh al haal now)

Women do not only get a share in the propertys of their husbands but their fathers , childrens uncles and they will always have a man in their family who supports them or takes responsibility for them even though she might be working or has billions to her name, so whos getting the shorter end of the stick - men or women?

Patternal names are a societal concept not a religious one,

i am short of time but it saddens me that people do not do their homework before becoming self glorified truth enforcers like me - LOL!

Missx you seem to know a lot about the religion of islam, did u take it as a course or have u narrated all the misguidance that has been aimed at ou people through your media channels,

there is a valid answer for all the comments you have made uptil now in this post but i dunno whether you really wanna know the truth

if u do put each of ur questions up one at a time and see the answers you get or the reasons u get for the way things are in this religion

Eagle, If you want to stay out of the firing line and have no stress so want accept a lower position in life, then by all means do it. But do it because you want it, not because as a woman it is your position and your true nature.

http://www.al-islamforall.org/Wmnfam/Woman%20in%20Islam.doc

The status of women in society is neither a new issue nor is it a fully settled one.

The position of Islam on this issue has been among the subjects presented to the Western reader with the least objectivity.

This paper is intended to provide a brief and authentic exposition of what Islam stands for in this regard. The teachings of Islam are based essentially on the Quran (God's revelation) and Hadeeth (elaboration by Prophet Muhammad).

The Quran and the Hadeeth, properly and unbiasedly understood, provide the basic source of authentication for any position or view which is attributed to Islam.

Click for Details:

http://www.al-islamforall.org/Wmnfam/Woman%20in%20Islam.doc

We are products of our environment. You and I were blessed because we were born with a functioning brain. Yet, we have been influenced by our different environments.

In your environment, you are brought up/raised to think a lot differently than I.

I was brought up in an environment of free thinkers. I was brought up knowing that I, as a woman, can be whatever I want to be in this life.

I was also brought up in a household that encouraged critical thinking and to ask questions about things that I didn't understand. I found different answers to my questions by asking several different people. After my questions were answered, and/or did research on my own, I was able to decipher all of this information and formulate my own point of view. This was all possible because I was born with a functioning brain and an evironment that did not stifle my free thinking.

We are from two different worlds. I will never understand your world, and I suspect, you will never understand mine. In your world (environment) you have come to think a certain way. In my world, I continue to learn and even have the freedom to change my mind, if I choose. I like my world. I wouldn't change it for anything. I suspect that you would never change yours.

Check them

http://www.geocities.com/prophets_of_the_world/pageone.html

Unequal. Oppression are still seen in so many ways. Take for exapmle the way the Talibans treat their womens.

MissX said "... Sadly it is just as much fault of women like you who accept their lower position in life, as it is the men's for abusing power."

There is another way of looking at this - accepting a "lower position" keeps one of out the firing line and away from unnecessary stress and some women do indeed prefer it cos we'll live longer. Pros and cons to everything in life.

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Don't want no drama,

No, no drama, no, no, no, no drama

Read this story...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1191571/Saudi-Arabias-female-minister-needs-permission-appear-TV.html

yeah, shes really liberated isnt she ...

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I think you have me confused with someone who gives a sh1t.

in islam girls and boys are not seperated from very start, indeed sisters and brothers grow together, is that not enough for a man to understand a woman and viceversa, and indeed however , there r not many who completely practice the isolation practice of islam.. we grow meeting our cousins from time to time,

and why does islam isolate them from one another, have you ever tried to find out that??

a girl should be raised like a girl and a boy like a boy, both have their own seperate roles to play,

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i want to learn until i die, if u have some knowledge then share it with me.

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And while I'm on a rant. You know what causes this belief in inequality? It's all these damn male/female separations that Islam tries to enforce.

You get isolated from the opposite sex so much that you never grow up understanding them. Males and females grow up never being able to comprehend each others motivations. You're led to believe that they are some sort of creature that you will never fully understand, but if you treat a certain way, will be able to get along with.

It makes me so disappointed that people can still grow up in their bubble of naivety. Raise a girl like a boy, and she will grow up thinking like a man, and vice versa for boys.

i shall not like to argue, i do understand that we r same to men in many terms and not completely opposite, everybody has right to live there own way, and to think their own way,

but ur thinking will not change the command of almighty,

we r not made to think this way, i have my own brain, i have read things, discussed, argued and atlast accepted with heart that islam is the truth , the religion of the true lord, the sole creator, i have got faith because Allah willed it for me, Alhamdulillah i m proud to be a muslimah,

and i said islam is a religion of justice,

in simple even 2 men, one who does righteous deeds, and other who sins are not equal, a person who works hard is not equal to the one who cheats, a persons who has knowledge is not equal to the one who are illiterate,

islam gives women whatever she deserves best,

u may not think so, but ur thinking and lack of understanding it will not change the command of Allah nor even harm it in the least.

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i want to learn until i die, if u have some knowledge then share it with me.

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"in simple, there is no equality between men and women, both are completely opposite each other, with different purpose of life, different needs etc etc"

You wrote it well, I'll give you that. But that's as far as it goes. Do you even understand yourself, let alone the other sex? Take your blinkers off. Males and females are almost identical, apart from a few different body parts and hormone levels. They have exactly the same purpose in life, and have the same needs, have the same ability to think, analyse, comprehend and feel.

If you feel that you are the opposite of a man, then it is because you have been raised to THINK differently then them. Not because you are different. Yes, there are variations in all people, but the equality comes in when you give them the opportunity to eat the same amount of food regardless of their size. Women for centuries have been told they are so different from men, and it is through this that men have held their power over society. Sadly it is just as much fault of women like you who accept their lower position in life, as it is the men's for abusing power.

so according to you everything should be equal then only god is just,

a man can never be equal to woman and viceversa

both have there own different positions, different characteristics, different from the very start and the very nature,

A man eat double that of women, a man can do more physical work then women, its just originally by nature..

according to u both must be treated equally...

for eg, a parent if want to treat both his male and female child equally, then they have to give the same amount of food to both, no matter that the food to the female child is in excess of her requirement,

no in islam ,u give to both whatever they require, deal with both justly,

u know there r more women accepting islam then men, why?

is it because islam treats then unequally?

no, it is the lord who has created us, and he knows best what is right and wrong for us, and we accept wholeheartedly his command and obey what he want us to obey, islam has given respect and dignity to women which no other religion give. and Allah knows better what his creation deserves best, if according to Allah women are twin halves of men, then indeed it is so. and who is more truthful and filled with wisdom then the lord himself.

if some commands of Allah are beyond our understanding, then it doesnt mean they r wrong,we have been given very little knowledge, and there is wisdom behind all commands of Allah

women in islam are indeed liberated, it is their right to follow Allahs command and observe hijab,and live there life on the teachings of prophet muhammed, those women who accept islam with full heart dont have any trouble accepting it in full.

in simple, there is no equality between men and women, both are completely opposite each other, with different purpose of life, different needs etc etc

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i want to learn until i die, if u have some knowledge then share it with me.

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So, in actual fact Khalid, you don't say what you think - you regurgitate, copy and paste. Hmmmmmmm very original - NOT! How about really thinking for yourself for a change, and forming your own opinions?

Thanks

This is copy and paste not what you say.

[img_assist|nid=50852|title=hmm|desc=|link=none|align=left|width=|height=0]

I say what I think and thanks for correcting me Dottie

In most of the cases are better!!!

Khalid, what exactly do you mean when you say that 'globally they are less than men'? It's been proven that female babies are stronger than men, and generally girls are smarter than boys at school too. In fact, 51% of the world's population is female..............and if countries like India stopped performing 'selective abortions' to kill off female foetuses in the misguided belief that boy babies are more desirable, then this figure would probably be even greater.

Girl power!!

Try to answer it your self, ok

Those who work hard and achieve things in their life are not equal to those who set and do not achieve any thing.

The Justice requires us to appreciate those who work hard and push and motivate those who do not work to go and do some thing.

A person who brings life needs to his family is not the same as that who does not bring any thing to his family and the justice tells us appreciate the first type.

You said that Islam is the religion of justice and not equality.

I have to ask you: Where is the justice in inequality?

I think that both are different but neither men or women are superior to each othe as a full being.

Ayman

Only God Can Judge Me

الله فقط يمكنه محاكمتي

I am you and you are me, if you love i love, if you suffer i suffer

أنا أنت, و أنت أنا, إذا أحببت نفسك أحببت نفسي, إذا عانيتَ عانيتُ

Each has his rule then it would just have been one sex and that is it.

Each one is created for a certain rule.

Unfortunately many people miss understand and they limit their understandings to one type of differences.

How can we explain that there was a man two years ago having an affair with a cow.

Khalid, is your point that there are some women 'better' than men, but on the whole, women in general are inferior to men?

My opinion is that there are women who are better than men and vice versa, and this life is full of examples where women did things man could not do and vice versa.

Khalid I pity your female relatives. Obviously they were not up to standards of the rest of the women in the world, for you to have constructed a thought pattern of women being less than men.

Expand your female social group and maybe then you will realise that these 'lesser' women you seem to have encountered in your life are in the minority and are possibly just a result of being raised to think like a 'lesser' person.

God created the difference because each one has his own rule and that every thing is balanced at the end.

We are the ones who bring mistakes.

A real Muslim is a person who does not harm others in any way.

... now you have started finding god's mistake?

good for a teacher i guess

:-)

Men are different as they are not affected emotionally in the same way as women.

Yes I agree some women are strong but globally they are less compared to men.

Islam is the religion of justice and not equality,

men and woman can never be equal, they r not even created equal,

Women are like men in some aspects and they differ from them in others. Most of the rulings of Islam apply to men and women equally. In cases where a distinction is made between the sexes, the Muslim regards that as a mercy from Allaah and a sign of His knowledge of His creation,

women are twin halves of men,

women in our prophets time were given rights and were raise in status , this will become clear only after you know what was the condition of women and the way they were treated b4 islam,

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i want to learn until i die, if u have some knowledge then share it with me.

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Maybe God's mistake was giving men and women brains so that they can think independently and come to their own conclusions about deciphering the good books.

Religion has always been questioned and tested by independent thinkers resulting in abandoning the written scriptures.

As long as there is a threat that others may not join/follow the flock, there will people who will undoubtedly preach these teachings.

This action can be counter-productive. It is similar to jamming food down someone's throat when they're not hungry.

much I believe they are all equal. That's why I use a set of scales at home and balance women of equal weight at each end. However while maintaining this balancing act she must keep to her family obligations and if she falls off I beat her senseless....

Exactly my thoughts Tallg.

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- Listen to Many...Speak to a Few -

... i love islam....

The correct route is to claim that religious testaments are in line with modern day thinking? Minorities have had to fight religious doctrine tooth and claw just to be considered legitimate citizens. And now people are claiming that these same religious texts that have marjinalised, persecuted and executed them for hundreds of years, are actually the ones who liberated them? Get serious.

And both the 'Da Vinci code' and 'Demons and Angels' are amazingly convincing stories, that use the consumers lack of knowledge of certain topics to make a wonderfully believable plot line. Only, if you ever investigate some things they claim, then you will realise how fiction it is.

Just goes to show how large masses of people are able to be convinced of certain things they read without a scrap of evidence. Remind you of anything?

Why should any religion preach for sexual equality?

Or, to put it another way, why look to religion for advice for integrating the sexes. I don't care whether or not Islam or Christianity or Judaism or any other religion preaches equal rights for the sexes. It doesn't bother me, but it irks me when people try to prove their religion is better than all the others by peddling lies and mistruths.

Women and men are not 100% equal in every way in Islam, or any other mainstream religion that I can think of. That's fine. But stop pretending that this is the case.

Umm.. MissX, so does the Old Testament of the Bible. But nb: Holy Books (any religion) cannot be read out of context.

"This is on par with trying to use science to prove God exists."

- Science and religion can try to work together. Good theme to "Angels and Demons" if people are open minded enough to see it.

"They no longer can make believers out of people using the threat of eternal damnation, so have resorted to using 'modern' techniques. Come on guys, trying to bring religion to modern day standards of believability is not working. Try a different route."

- Think correct route - to connect and make timeless teachings / religion relevant to today's times. You will note that history tends to repeat itself, hopefully mankind learns from past mistakes. Nb: Many people relegate religion to ancient times and not being relevant to their lives today. Not true.

Re: O.Post - possible. NB: Not saying that religion is not misused by people with their own hidden agenda of personal benefit - whether it be power or money, etc. The guidance and influence of those selfish "leaders" result in / are the cause of the misery we see in our world today. Education key to change.

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Don't want no drama,

No, no drama, no, no, no, no drama

How convenient that he leaves out the parts where the wife must obey her husband, and punish her if she doesn't. Also that women children inherit much less then their male siblings. Those definitely scream equality. I also love how they try to use the fact that women don't take their husbands surname as a women's liberation movement. Yes they do not take their husbands surname, they keep their fathers surname. When children are given their mothers surname, or men take their wives surname, then that will be progress.

This is on par with trying to use science to prove God exists. They no longer can make believers out of people using the threat of eternal damnation, so have resorted to using 'modern' techniques. Come on guys, trying to bring religion to modern day standards of believability is not working. Try a different route.

Ummm

"Islam, fourteen centuries ago, made women equally accountable to Allaah in glorifying and worshipping Him - setting no limits on her moral progress. Also, Islam established a woman's equality in her humanity with men."

So where are all the female Imams????

I could pick the rest of this loose reasoning apart, but frankly I can't be bothered.

Just reposting stuff like this from other Islamic websites is a complete waste of time and effort. People who are interested will go to the original site. Those not will just put crap comments here (like this and those above)

I am actually beginning to wonder whether Khalid is actually a Muslim!

Khalid - while I admire your perseverance, you do realise that posts like this on QL do more harm for Islam than good?

Your last sentence says it all.

This post will serve no purpose other than to start another religion bashing exercise :(

unable to counter the attack from western media, nowadays the so-called arab intellectuals "discovring" that there is enough womens liberation in the religion.

--- then why some countries allow women working, some NOT

--- why some give allow women their convenient dress,

some NOT allowing

--- if a women is raped, why there should be 4 witnesses

and all the 4 should be MALES ????

The problem is not in the Religion. but the so-called interpretors, who misuse it...and give a bad name