you and your husband (and btw, yes you have mentioned MANY times about his mosque and books so we all got that point by now I am sure). For example, you said: "But the real icing on the cake was moving into the town where I live now. Which is full of backward villagy mirpuri pakistani salafees. Who refuse to mix outside their own families, have forced marriages and have the worst manners one has ever seen."Aren't you once again backbiting and passing judgment -- in fact in a most abhorrent way by ethnically steroetyping people in a very ugly way?
their are certain common denominators which outsiders to villagy indians can observe. These differ depending upon the village they are from and their educational and financial background. As well as the time and reason they came to the uk. Most education non-villagy background pakistanis know full well what I mean when I say this. A few of these common denominators are lack of socialising outside the family, then outside the castes and in the local community. Hence the complaint by many british that many of the muslims have created insular communities. One will find this less so with the more educated pakistanis who have come to work in the uk with professional jobs. Also many of these pakistani's also only marry within the family, forced marriages, abuse is rampant, women tend not to speak english despite living in the uk for the last 30 years etcr. 3 types of people have resulted from these people (in general but with many subsects).
Some of the second generation went to university and established the businesses started by their fathers or thru the families savings. These have usually gone on to have a very ikwaanee outlook on Islam and take it very political. Few have been able to pull themselves out of the gutter and become successful professionals with a more british outlook on life. And the negatives in the more educated have through their own family culture become confused about Islam and caused them to partly reject the religion and eager to practice it. Or this confusion has caused them to dive deeper into more extreme views of the religion or against practicing the faith.
Others from these people have not had access to education and remained in family businesses (which are successful and can make alot of money).
For the most part they tend to marry their first or second cousins and stick to the very cultural viewpoints of their parents. Others have again become extreme in rebellion of a culture that has limited their chances of education and working either away from the family business or easing the pressures of unhappy marriages they were forced into. And then we have the ones who leave culture, religion and partake in love marriages instead often fighting with the family and in some cases running away from them where they may get into things as deep as being the biggest drug dealers in the uk or gain the education and spouse they would have liked in the first place.
Very few of them become staunch salafi/ikwaanee supporter and even some of these type of background were known to be suicide bombers on 7/7. They range from Brailwees although many of them were hanafi in pakistan before they came the only masjids in the uk were brailwee masjids. Others have become staunch tableequis and Deobandis and one will often find families competing between salafiya and tableequi in the rebellious quest of my religion is better than yours scenerio.
These are just a few examples of the different types of mirpuri people. Obviously, I haven't even begun to look at the types of pakistanis and arabs and what they are upon yet.
Now among these people all of them have some common factors. Because of their insular natures of staying within the family and caste systems one would be very hard pressed to actually have a friendship with them unless you are part of their family.. Even members of their own caste do not often visit each other unless for necessity . And the problems are worse in the salafi villagy families where a complaint often made against them by members of their own caste are that they never visit anyone. And people have to visit them! And then of course of course we have the intricacies of the caste system that is still predominate in ever more educated families. Where some families look down on the poorer members of the group or those with less status. In the salafi case many of these arrogance issues have come with a mentality that says I have more knowledge then you because I have found the right dawah.
Now imagine this case with outsiders who come to live in the city. Be they educated punjabi, indians, arabs, and all their own social baggage that comes with them. Many will find the community insular. The more ikwaanee people who are educated such as doctors will be welcomed to give talks by both the educated and uneducated of the community and thus raising their status and respect. Of course those giving the talks do not need to know a lick about islam but that doesn't matter because they are doctors or lawyers. Right? And these type of issues do not stop with the mirpuri community as many of the educated punjabi, indians, and arabs will not mix with them (although they are happy to give talks) and often form their own circles of friendship based on status. Thus raising the whole status and greed problem already existant. Usually the arabs, kurds, and afghanis all form their own seperate groups from the educated indian/pakistani community. Of course, all the while continuing pleasant conversation in passing between members of all communities and rarely forming good bonds for the sake of Allah.
All these issues aside.. we now have the salafi community. Broken by the rift of the 1980's and early 1990's pitting against themselves. Abu Iyaad trying to overtake a local masjid at one point and refuses to make jummah there and opts for the more arab ikwaanee masjid instead. Although often leaving his prayers at home. Where as the salafi masjid Imam is going around giving circles and bringing people to islam he is also supporting people such as Zakir Naik, and Sheikh Shuaib and the functions they inhabit.
And now the salafis in the community torn between the two break up and dispelled from Abu Iyaad's lack of manners have gone to the local salafi masjid. (the one amjad staged a coo and tried to take over). Their attitudes are very representative of the typical villagy mirpuri backgrounds they come from accept now they are in chaos concerning the religion and lack support.
And amidst all this chaos here come hubby straight from sufi/ikwaanee cambridge. Leaving the city and a very successful career and promotion to work part time so he can study with the great Abu Iyaad Amjad Rafiq. Something recommended by Abu Khadeeja himself. Whilst here he attended a few circles and started to realize that the brother wasn't teaching anything new. Nor was their a strong salafi community here. And that Abu Iyaad's manners were lacking. He found a friend Asghar who went to establish a business in saudi and lives next door to sheikh Rabee. (And by the way, despite his mirpuri villagy roots where forced marriages are still predominate in his family he actually wholeheartedly agrees on the things I am saying about amjad and his idea of brotherhood thanks to his own open mind and study under the scholars. ) May Allah reward the brother and make him successful. InshAllah ameen.
Now in this type of neighborhood their are a handful of spubs salafis. All of which are looking for guidance, community and support and those needs are not being met. No circles are established, no united front on homeschooling where Amjad could dictate the curriculum among other things. A few educated doctors, lawyers from indian, arab and other backgrounds who are not accustomed to the insular mirpuri community and caste system and very much need the companion ship as their friends have become their family whilst living abroad. And my husband and I who are sacrificing everything just to have that community that we both need so much, the knowledge that we yearn for where one of the greatest da'ee's in the uk reside. Abu Americans clique tends to think that these people reject salafiya because it goes against their desires. But my husband and I have personally been witness to a dramatic change when they hear what makes sense and has proof. MashAllah you will never feel alone with these people and they will always welcome you in their house, home and lives. Supporting each other in the practice of what they learn and making it easy for everyone around. Overlooking each other faults. You will be pushed to find anyone in the salafi caste ridden community do the same.
And another thing caught my attention: "I swear by Allah we only moved here to be closer to Abu Iyaad and to enjoin each other on good." How do you know that won't be the case here. Have you let these people know that you are coming here and what your expectations of them are?
I have studied under sheikh Fawzaan, sheikh rabee, sheikh muqbil's daughters in the past to name a few. They are no way like some of the da'ees in the uk. Very approachable and easy to talk with. And always concerned about their fellow muslims. Hence my question regarding the circumstances that surround Abu Americans own experience.
What if they don't want to open their homes to you socially or have you educate their children? It seems to me we might be reading the same kind of thing about the "scholars" here in Qatar by this time next year.
I offered to help out.. not educate their children. I asked that we combine our different talents and bring the children together in what was possible. Obviously I understand that Amjad has his own program with his kids (although I believe it is mainly his wife who just has a GCSE). My offer to him was to bring the community together by the 3 sp salafi families homeschooling the kids to bring them together and join in some activities. So they could socialize a bit. My children do not have a big family to fall back on.. And to be honest Amjads children and the other salafi families kids are extremely anti social (another aspect of their caste backgrounds) mainly due to lack of mixing with other children. Furthermore, this would give the mothers a chance to brush up on our own Islam and read Islamic books and practice tajweed together.
But to be honest, it was a blessing in disguise for me because I notice a big difference in my daughter. She smiles more often, is cheerful and not alienated from the country where she lives. English manners are superb in that they always say please and thank you. And it has opened my eyes to the insular nature of some salafis and its effect on their children. Alhumdulilah I have seen the difference between kids forced to live this way and am personally much more impressed with the parents who sent their children to English schools and still instilled Islam upon them. And mashAllah some of their children are the best of muslims I have seen. Allahu Alim.
They are better able to understand the dawah and ask intelligent questions. And their practice, respect, and caring for others seems to come genuinely from the heart. MashAllah la Quwatta Illah billah.
And I am now prepared for dissappointment PM. I still take knowledge from Abu Iyaad but with the realization of some of his personality traits that also inhibit him. And I am much better prepared to handle some of the issues with the scholars equipped with knowledge on how to advise them in private and in the open. And since acquiring this knowledge I have tried to give them naseeha. And most people hate naseeha concerning their faults.
You ask me to look into myself.. and I assure you that although not much can be written in a forum or even a blog. I have really really looked into myself and asked outright questions of advice from Abu iyaad himself and the scholars. How to deal with the situation and if I am being OTT. And Alhumdulilah none of them have given me any reply in the negative at all. Also I am not the only one who feels like this.. as I have mentioned before. As many many much more knowledgable people then amjad feel exactly the way I do or so they have told me.
Anyway I'm sorry for such a long post. Obviously I don't expect people to read this and understand. As for the reason behind the so called stereo types. Stereo types which I hope have been made quite clear not to apply to the whole group but give an idea of the current situation I have faced over the past years regarding the aspect of villagy mirpuri salafis and some (points that pertain to the discussion) of what they represent and how it has seeped into the dawah. They are not opinions held by me but that which is apparant and as in every group of people issues that need to be dealt with. I would not have been able to learn about these differences if it wasn't for my own mother in laws caste/villagy mentality and family dynamics, the observation of neighbors and talks with some of the salafi and pseudo salafi youth in the area. It was also helpful seeeing the difference between those pakistanis coming from India/pakistan, educated and without implementing a caste system any longer. And my previous experience of muslims in America and the middle east before residing here.
PM if it is me then this would be a problem I would have faced with whoever I meet. However, I have found some great friends who not only challange me intellectually but also support my husband and I islamically. In fact, it is my own reserved nature and previous salafi inhibitions that I sometimes part myself from these people although I am always welcome and they do not mix with people of biddah.
I do not know how much you know about the whole salafi thing going on around the world. Particularly in the uk and US. But these are just my experiences of the spubs salafi situation. And I haven't even begun to talk about the pseudo salafis yet.
Anyway I'm off. As I am sure my experiences will be unwelcome and taking out of context through everyone read. I dot hope that it does help people in the future who may experience the same situation I have. May it give them a broader perspective to relate their own experiences with. InshAllah Alahumma Ameen.
Anything I have said which is wrong is from myself and Anything I have said right is from Allah subhana wa ta'ala.
Likewise don't take my personal experiences. Who knows I might be bloody crazy as some people seem to suggest so by all means check them out yourselves and make your own experiences.
you and your husband (and btw, yes you have mentioned MANY times about his mosque and books so we all got that point by now I am sure). For example, you said: "But the real icing on the cake was moving into the town where I live now. Which is full of backward villagy mirpuri pakistani salafees. Who refuse to mix outside their own families, have forced marriages and have the worst manners one has ever seen." Aren't you once again backbiting and passing judgment -- in fact in a most abhorrent way by ethnically steroetyping people in a very ugly way?
their are certain common denominators which outsiders to villagy indians can observe. These differ depending upon the village they are from and their educational and financial background. As well as the time and reason they came to the uk. Most education non-villagy background pakistanis know full well what I mean when I say this. A few of these common denominators are lack of socialising outside the family, then outside the castes and in the local community. Hence the complaint by many british that many of the muslims have created insular communities. One will find this less so with the more educated pakistanis who have come to work in the uk with professional jobs. Also many of these pakistani's also only marry within the family, forced marriages, abuse is rampant, women tend not to speak english despite living in the uk for the last 30 years etcr. 3 types of people have resulted from these people (in general but with many subsects).
Some of the second generation went to university and established the businesses started by their fathers or thru the families savings. These have usually gone on to have a very ikwaanee outlook on Islam and take it very political. Few have been able to pull themselves out of the gutter and become successful professionals with a more british outlook on life. And the negatives in the more educated have through their own family culture become confused about Islam and caused them to partly reject the religion and eager to practice it. Or this confusion has caused them to dive deeper into more extreme views of the religion or against practicing the faith.
Others from these people have not had access to education and remained in family businesses (which are successful and can make alot of money).
For the most part they tend to marry their first or second cousins and stick to the very cultural viewpoints of their parents. Others have again become extreme in rebellion of a culture that has limited their chances of education and working either away from the family business or easing the pressures of unhappy marriages they were forced into. And then we have the ones who leave culture, religion and partake in love marriages instead often fighting with the family and in some cases running away from them where they may get into things as deep as being the biggest drug dealers in the uk or gain the education and spouse they would have liked in the first place.
Very few of them become staunch salafi/ikwaanee supporter and even some of these type of background were known to be suicide bombers on 7/7. They range from Brailwees although many of them were hanafi in pakistan before they came the only masjids in the uk were brailwee masjids. Others have become staunch tableequis and Deobandis and one will often find families competing between salafiya and tableequi in the rebellious quest of my religion is better than yours scenerio.
These are just a few examples of the different types of mirpuri people. Obviously, I haven't even begun to look at the types of pakistanis and arabs and what they are upon yet.
Now among these people all of them have some common factors. Because of their insular natures of staying within the family and caste systems one would be very hard pressed to actually have a friendship with them unless you are part of their family.. Even members of their own caste do not often visit each other unless for necessity . And the problems are worse in the salafi villagy families where a complaint often made against them by members of their own caste are that they never visit anyone. And people have to visit them! And then of course of course we have the intricacies of the caste system that is still predominate in ever more educated families. Where some families look down on the poorer members of the group or those with less status. In the salafi case many of these arrogance issues have come with a mentality that says I have more knowledge then you because I have found the right dawah.
Now imagine this case with outsiders who come to live in the city. Be they educated punjabi, indians, arabs, and all their own social baggage that comes with them. Many will find the community insular. The more ikwaanee people who are educated such as doctors will be welcomed to give talks by both the educated and uneducated of the community and thus raising their status and respect. Of course those giving the talks do not need to know a lick about islam but that doesn't matter because they are doctors or lawyers. Right? And these type of issues do not stop with the mirpuri community as many of the educated punjabi, indians, and arabs will not mix with them (although they are happy to give talks) and often form their own circles of friendship based on status. Thus raising the whole status and greed problem already existant. Usually the arabs, kurds, and afghanis all form their own seperate groups from the educated indian/pakistani community. Of course, all the while continuing pleasant conversation in passing between members of all communities and rarely forming good bonds for the sake of Allah.
All these issues aside.. we now have the salafi community. Broken by the rift of the 1980's and early 1990's pitting against themselves. Abu Iyaad trying to overtake a local masjid at one point and refuses to make jummah there and opts for the more arab ikwaanee masjid instead. Although often leaving his prayers at home. Where as the salafi masjid Imam is going around giving circles and bringing people to islam he is also supporting people such as Zakir Naik, and Sheikh Shuaib and the functions they inhabit.
And now the salafis in the community torn between the two break up and dispelled from Abu Iyaad's lack of manners have gone to the local salafi masjid. (the one amjad staged a coo and tried to take over). Their attitudes are very representative of the typical villagy mirpuri backgrounds they come from accept now they are in chaos concerning the religion and lack support.
And amidst all this chaos here come hubby straight from sufi/ikwaanee cambridge. Leaving the city and a very successful career and promotion to work part time so he can study with the great Abu Iyaad Amjad Rafiq. Something recommended by Abu Khadeeja himself. Whilst here he attended a few circles and started to realize that the brother wasn't teaching anything new. Nor was their a strong salafi community here. And that Abu Iyaad's manners were lacking. He found a friend Asghar who went to establish a business in saudi and lives next door to sheikh Rabee. (And by the way, despite his mirpuri villagy roots where forced marriages are still predominate in his family he actually wholeheartedly agrees on the things I am saying about amjad and his idea of brotherhood thanks to his own open mind and study under the scholars. ) May Allah reward the brother and make him successful. InshAllah ameen.
Now in this type of neighborhood their are a handful of spubs salafis. All of which are looking for guidance, community and support and those needs are not being met. No circles are established, no united front on homeschooling where Amjad could dictate the curriculum among other things. A few educated doctors, lawyers from indian, arab and other backgrounds who are not accustomed to the insular mirpuri community and caste system and very much need the companion ship as their friends have become their family whilst living abroad. And my husband and I who are sacrificing everything just to have that community that we both need so much, the knowledge that we yearn for where one of the greatest da'ee's in the uk reside. Abu Americans clique tends to think that these people reject salafiya because it goes against their desires. But my husband and I have personally been witness to a dramatic change when they hear what makes sense and has proof. MashAllah you will never feel alone with these people and they will always welcome you in their house, home and lives. Supporting each other in the practice of what they learn and making it easy for everyone around. Overlooking each other faults. You will be pushed to find anyone in the salafi caste ridden community do the same.
And another thing caught my attention: "I swear by Allah we only moved here to be closer to Abu Iyaad and to enjoin each other on good." How do you know that won't be the case here. Have you let these people know that you are coming here and what your expectations of them are?
I have studied under sheikh Fawzaan, sheikh rabee, sheikh muqbil's daughters in the past to name a few. They are no way like some of the da'ees in the uk. Very approachable and easy to talk with. And always concerned about their fellow muslims. Hence my question regarding the circumstances that surround Abu Americans own experience.
What if they don't want to open their homes to you socially or have you educate their children? It seems to me we might be reading the same kind of thing about the "scholars" here in Qatar by this time next year.
I offered to help out.. not educate their children. I asked that we combine our different talents and bring the children together in what was possible. Obviously I understand that Amjad has his own program with his kids (although I believe it is mainly his wife who just has a GCSE). My offer to him was to bring the community together by the 3 sp salafi families homeschooling the kids to bring them together and join in some activities. So they could socialize a bit. My children do not have a big family to fall back on.. And to be honest Amjads children and the other salafi families kids are extremely anti social (another aspect of their caste backgrounds) mainly due to lack of mixing with other children. Furthermore, this would give the mothers a chance to brush up on our own Islam and read Islamic books and practice tajweed together.
But to be honest, it was a blessing in disguise for me because I notice a big difference in my daughter. She smiles more often, is cheerful and not alienated from the country where she lives. English manners are superb in that they always say please and thank you. And it has opened my eyes to the insular nature of some salafis and its effect on their children. Alhumdulilah I have seen the difference between kids forced to live this way and am personally much more impressed with the parents who sent their children to English schools and still instilled Islam upon them. And mashAllah some of their children are the best of muslims I have seen. Allahu Alim.
They are better able to understand the dawah and ask intelligent questions. And their practice, respect, and caring for others seems to come genuinely from the heart. MashAllah la Quwatta Illah billah.
And I am now prepared for dissappointment PM. I still take knowledge from Abu Iyaad but with the realization of some of his personality traits that also inhibit him. And I am much better prepared to handle some of the issues with the scholars equipped with knowledge on how to advise them in private and in the open. And since acquiring this knowledge I have tried to give them naseeha. And most people hate naseeha concerning their faults.
You ask me to look into myself.. and I assure you that although not much can be written in a forum or even a blog. I have really really looked into myself and asked outright questions of advice from Abu iyaad himself and the scholars. How to deal with the situation and if I am being OTT. And Alhumdulilah none of them have given me any reply in the negative at all. Also I am not the only one who feels like this.. as I have mentioned before. As many many much more knowledgable people then amjad feel exactly the way I do or so they have told me.
Anyway I'm sorry for such a long post. Obviously I don't expect people to read this and understand. As for the reason behind the so called stereo types. Stereo types which I hope have been made quite clear not to apply to the whole group but give an idea of the current situation I have faced over the past years regarding the aspect of villagy mirpuri salafis and some (points that pertain to the discussion) of what they represent and how it has seeped into the dawah. They are not opinions held by me but that which is apparant and as in every group of people issues that need to be dealt with. I would not have been able to learn about these differences if it wasn't for my own mother in laws caste/villagy mentality and family dynamics, the observation of neighbors and talks with some of the salafi and pseudo salafi youth in the area. It was also helpful seeeing the difference between those pakistanis coming from India/pakistan, educated and without implementing a caste system any longer. And my previous experience of muslims in America and the middle east before residing here.
PM if it is me then this would be a problem I would have faced with whoever I meet. However, I have found some great friends who not only challange me intellectually but also support my husband and I islamically. In fact, it is my own reserved nature and previous salafi inhibitions that I sometimes part myself from these people although I am always welcome and they do not mix with people of biddah.
I do not know how much you know about the whole salafi thing going on around the world. Particularly in the uk and US. But these are just my experiences of the spubs salafi situation. And I haven't even begun to talk about the pseudo salafis yet.
Anyway I'm off. As I am sure my experiences will be unwelcome and taking out of context through everyone read. I dot hope that it does help people in the future who may experience the same situation I have. May it give them a broader perspective to relate their own experiences with. InshAllah Alahumma Ameen.
Anything I have said which is wrong is from myself and Anything I have said right is from Allah subhana wa ta'ala.
Anyone who wishes to know what the salafis are upon can go to www.spubs.com or www.salafitalk.net for references
Likewise don't take my personal experiences. Who knows I might be bloody crazy as some people seem to suggest so by all means check them out yourselves and make your own experiences.
InshAllah alahumma ameen.
Maryum : Umm Hasan bint Abdullah Alshabrawishi